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Dakaran
2010-12-10, 11:08 AM
Does anyone know if you can mix and match power/utility selections between 4th Edition Player's Handbooks and 4th Edition Essentials Books? Can I look at the Essentials books like other supplemental books such as the Martial Power book?

Thanks!
Dakaran

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-10, 11:22 AM
I haven't read the essentials book. but is there a reason you wouldn't treat it like any other supplement?

Dakaran
2010-12-10, 11:27 AM
There are just some things that make it a little difficult to consider it a true supplement which is why I'm a little confused. For example the Rogue build in the Essentials book have any Level 1 Daily Powers.

Blackfang108
2010-12-10, 11:28 AM
Does anyone know if you can mix and match power/utility selections between 4th Edition Player's Handbooks and 4th Edition Essentials Books? Can I look at the Essentials books like other supplemental books such as the Martial Power book?

Thanks!
Dakaran

Utilities, yes.

Powers depends. If the essentials class uses powers in the same fashion as normal classes (Essentials ex: Mage) then Yes.

If the "power" structure is different (Essentials ex: Slayer) then No.

At least, this is how I've had it explained to me.

Mando Knight
2010-12-10, 12:59 PM
Blackfang summarized how I understand it as well (though the official character builder, last time I checked, still doesn't let the Mage pick from the full list of Wizard at-wills). There will be a book to allow more blending as well as introducing an Essentials-style Warlord. The book is Heroes of Sword and Spell, and is scheduled for early 2011.

tbarrie
2010-12-10, 01:13 PM
If it has a level number, it's an ordinary power and can be picked whenever you're instructed to pick a power of a certain level.

TheEmerged
2010-12-10, 05:12 PM
Pending something official (and if there has been anything official, I'm unaware of it), here's what I've been doing.

1> Utilities are one-of-one. If your essential wizard wants a utility from Arcane Power, allow it.

2> Similarly, any at-will attacks, encounter attack powers, or daily attack powers can be used between the sets.

3> However, there are many aspects of the Essentials builds that don't convert to 4e well. For example, I don't see a good way to move the Rogue's Tricks from a thief build to a standard Rogue, or the Backstab ability for the theif / Power Strike for warriors.

4> In the case of Wizard cantrips, I just ruled that the mage build cantrips are considered errata and current Wizard builds have the same set.


If it has a level number, it's an ordinary power and can be picked whenever you're instructed to pick a power of a certain level.

If only it were that simple. The rogue in our party would kill to have the Backstab power in place of his first-level encounter attack power, or trade an at-will attack power for one of those 1st-level utility powers the thief build has.


I haven't read the essentials book. but is there a reason you wouldn't treat it like any other supplement?

Yes. The warrior & rogue builds (knight, slayer, and thief) are structured differently. They don't have at-will and encounter attack powers anymore -- they spend their turns making basic attacks. They have stances (generally minor actions) and tricks (generally move actions) instead. They also have a first-level free action encounter utility power (Power Strike for warriors, Backstab for rogues) they can use a certain number of times an encounter that add [w] damage to basic melee attacks.

IN PLAY EXAMPLE.
Jaxs the Brutal Rogue takes his move action to move adjacent to the same goblin Toxic the paladin is adjacent to. He then uses his Clever Strike (I think that's the name) at-will attack power to gain combat advantage against it. When he hits, Jaxs adds his Sneak Attack damage to the damage.

Kallen the Thief take her Ambush Trick (move action) to move up to her speed to be adjacent to a goblin that has none of its allies adjacent to it. As such she gains combat advantage against it. When she hits, she adds her sneak attack damage and, if she chooses, can also spend one of her uses of Backstab to increase the [w] damage further.

Tiki Snakes
2010-12-10, 05:16 PM
The way I see it, they are things the base version can take, as long as they have access to them.

Which is to say, if the essential rogue gains a utility power at lvl2, the Rogue could take that also, when he hits level 2. As the power is a level 2 rogue utility power, and he gains one then.

But he can't take a level 1 utility power, because he doesn't gain a utility power at level 1.

That's just off the top of my head though. The closest my group has got to essentials is what i've pre-built for people using the new builder, where some feats at least have probably crossed over. *shrug*

Jaidu
2010-12-10, 05:20 PM
Blackfang summarized how I understand it as well (though the official character builder, last time I checked, still doesn't let the Mage pick from the full list of Wizard at-wills).

I'm not sure if it applies to mages, but I know for other classes clicking the "additional options" box in power selection shows non-essentials powers that are of the same class and level.

tbarrie
2010-12-10, 05:41 PM
If only it were that simple. The rogue in our party would kill to have the Backstab power in place of his first-level encounter attack power, or trade an at-will attack power for one of those 1st-level utility powers the thief build has.

But he can't, because those powers don't have level numbers. Look it up: the various "Tricks" aren't "Rogue Utility 1", they're just "Rogue Utility".

The rule I posted is the official rule, and it really is that simple.


Which is to say, if the essential rogue gains a utility power at lvl2, the Rogue could take that also, when he hits level 2. As the power is a level 2 rogue utility power, and he gains one then.

But he can't take a level 1 utility power, because he doesn't gain a utility power at level 1.

If there were level 1 utility powers, a PHB Rogue could certainly take them; you always have the option of picking a power of lower level than the maximum allowed.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-10, 06:26 PM
Well, the confusion sets in for certain specific powers. The wizard/1 says that you gain Magic Missile as a power, which is generally understood as specifically that power; however, the martial classes get certain fixed utility powers at level 16 and 24, which are generally understood as "that or any other power of the same or lower level". However, both are worded exactly the same.

Otherwise, the intent seems to be that 4.0 classes can pick 4.4 powers freely without any trouble. It seems that 4.4 classes could become unbalanced if they get a free pick of 4.0 powers.

Joseph Silver
2010-12-10, 07:07 PM
The way I see it, 4e is basically Magic: The Gathering while Essentials is Portal. Portal was a simplified version of Magic designed to ease beginners into the more complicated full game. Portal cards could be used with no problems in normal Magic, but some Magic cards couldn't be used in Portal because of its simplified rules.

Portal failed because the cards were generally inferior to their Magic counterparts. Portal creatures were overpriced and just not worth keeping once the beginner made the transition to Magic.

The_Pyre
2010-12-10, 11:04 PM
So, reading the above, am I right to assume that you can create wands using the mage at-wills, and these will be usable to whoever can use wands?

Kurald Galain
2010-12-11, 05:01 AM
So, reading the above, am I right to assume that you can create wands using the mage at-wills, and these will be usable to whoever can use wands?

That is correct, except that this applies to mage encounter powers rather than at-wills. At-will wands only exist if specifically printed for a particular power.

That said, if your DM uses the PHB rules (that limit the amount of magic items you can use each day) then this isn't generally worth investing in.