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stormywaters
2010-12-10, 10:19 PM
Paragon Path: Frost Mage

"Most yearn for the heat of summer to warm their hearts; I merely embrace the ice in mine."

Prerequisite: Any arcane class, must have at least one At-Will, Encounter, and Daily spell with the cold keyword.

The inhospitable tundra is your home. You find comfort in the endless ice sheets and freezing temperatures of winter. The frozen energies of the Elemental Chaos infuse your very essence, and you channel that icy power to wreak havoc on your foes. When you channel your glacial power, your skin becomes icy, your hair stiffens into icicles, and your eyes glow with the frigid white of arctic icebergs.

Maybe you were raised in polar regions, where people fought every day against the ever-present winter. Perhaps you found yourself stranded in a blizzard and were forced to tap into your unknown potential to survive. Or maybe the ice you channel simply mirrors the ice in your heart.

Only one thing is certain: you are the true master of the frozen arts. Freezing water into ice and conjuring snow are mere parlor tricks for you. Your cold becomes so piercing that even the heartiest of creatures cringe at your touch. None know the struggles of winter like you, and you can venture into the coldest regions without hesitation.

Freezing Action (11th Level): When you spend an action point to use a power with the Arcane and Cold keywords, any target hit by that attack is also slowed and dazed until the end of your next turn.

Numbing Frost (11th Level): Your arcane cold spells can target Fortitude instead of their normal defense. When you hit with an arcane cold power, the target takes a -2 to Fortitude against your arcane cold attacks until the end of your next turn. This ability does not stack with feats that apply a penalty to defenses.

You also gain the Chilling Touch cantrip:

Chilling Touch
Chilling Touch
Your touch chills liquids, creates ice or snow, or cools the air around you.
At-Will * Arcane, Cold
Standard Action * Melee Touch
Effect: Use this power to create one of the following effects:

Freeze up to 1 gallon of liquid into ice, or chill it.
Chill the air in your square by 15 degrees
Conjure a small lump of ice or snow in your hand.

Nothing you create with this power can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder any other creature's actions. This power cannot duplicate the effect of any other power.
Special: These chilling effects last for 5 minutes, then they will melt/thaw as normal for the temperature in the area.

Cold Mastery (16th level): You gain resistance to cold damage equal to 5 + 1/2 your level, and your arcane cold spells ignore cold resistance up to this same amount. Treat creatures with cold immunity as having resist 40 cold for purposes of ignoring resistances.

Icy Blast (Frost Mage Level 11 Spell)
Icy Blast
You channel your arcane energies into a blast of cold that damages and slows anything caught in its path.
Encounter * Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action * Close blast 5
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Int/Wis/Cha vs Reflex
Hit: 2d8+Int/Wis/Cha cold damage and the target is immobilized (save ends)
Miss: The target is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Glacial Armor (Frost Mage Level 12 Utility Power)
Glacial Armor
Your skin turns blue and begins to harden, and the cold power flowing through you protects you and damages enemies.
Encounter * Arcane, Cold
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: Until the end of your next turn, or until you leave your current square, you gain resist 5 to all damage, and any creature adjacent to you that hits you with an attack takes 10 cold damage.
Sustain Move: The effect persists until the end of your next turn.
Special: Each time you sustain this power, reduce the resistance it grants by 1 point.
Special: Increase the cold damage to 15 at level 21.


Winter's Caress (Frost Mage Level 20 Spell)
Winter's Caress
You emit a zone of freezing air, slowing your opponents' movements.
Daily * Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action * Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Int/Wis/Cha vs Reflex
Hit: 3d6+Int/Wis/Cha cold damage
Effect: The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn and moves with you. Any enemy that starts its turn in the zone becomes dazed and slowed (save ends both). Enemies within the zone take a -2 to saves against the stunned, immobilized, and slowed conditions that are caused by cold effects. Each enemy can only be affected by this ability once per encounter.
Sustain move: The zone persists until the end of your next turn.

stormywaters
2010-12-12, 01:35 AM
Over 60 views and not one comment? Come on guys, help me out!! If you like it, let me know; if you hate it, let me know!!

Arbitrarity
2010-12-12, 01:53 AM
I feel like the Frozen condition acts basically like a stun. No attack, no movement, grant CA? So balance it like it inflicts stun, or at least Daze. I think it's better than daze though.
Basically, I don't like Freezing Action. It seems a bit too powerful to me. Perhaps reduce it to either "can spend an action point to", or limit the number of targets, or "every enemy hit by the attack is".

I also feel that the attack powers should target Fort, to be similar to other Cold powers. This also makes them slightly more powerful, as they can be swapped to reflex.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 01:35 AM
Haha, I don't know how I didn't see stunned. Wow, I failed.

I like the idea of limiting the freezing action... I think I'll change it to "can spend an action point to..." instead. Good call.

As for the Fort/Reflex, I was unsure. I've seen cold powers that target either, so I didn't know which to choose. I guess they both make sense mechanically (one weakens your body, one numbs your muscles). You think Fort is the way to go with it? (to be honest, I only chose reflex because I liked the "numbing" flavor).

What do you think with the changes I've made (making as soon as I post this response, so refresh if they aren't done yet)?

Dust
2010-12-13, 01:47 AM
I feel this class is too powerful at a glance, but I can't exactly pin down specifics. I feel that this Paragon path could turn an arcane caster into a secondary-role Defender with minimal effort, and Arctic Focus alone makes me wary. Perma-Slow on at least one enemy, while also raising AC and dishing out very respectable damage.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 02:10 AM
I feel this class is too powerful at a glance, but I can't exactly pin down specifics. I feel that this Paragon path could turn an arcane caster into a secondary-role Defender with minimal effort, and Arctic Focus alone makes me wary. Perma-Slow on at least one enemy, while also raising AC and dishing out very respectable damage.

Well I'll need to know what makes it overpowered so I can fix it! :smallsmile:

In reality, I just feel cold gets shafted, while fire gets loads of powers, feats, and several paragon paths to choose from. There are very few options for cold, and in many cases, there is only one cold power at any given level, so you don't even have a choice.

I'm happy to change Arctic Focus to bring its power level down. I wanted some kind of defensive bonus to represent the frost mage's skin freezing or something similar, and I wanted some slowing effect as well.

What if I changed Arctic Focus to +1 AC, when you get hit the enemy takes Int/Wis/Cha mod damage, and you can dispel the power to slow each adjacent enemy until your next turn? Is that more balanced while keeping the flavor?

Dust
2010-12-13, 03:04 AM
What if I changed Arctic Focus to +1 AC, when you get hit the enemy takes Int/Wis/Cha mod damage, and you can dispel the power to slow each adjacent enemy until your next turn? Is that more balanced while keeping the flavor?
You could also simply add that you are slowed for the duration as well.

Were I to stat it out, I'd probably say say +2 AC, 5+Int/Wis/Cha mod damage when you're struck by a foe, and you are Slowed (ends when you stop sustaining the power). In addition, when you stop sustaining the power, it causes a Close Burst 2 Slow effect.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 03:07 AM
You could also simply add that you are slowed for the duration as well.

Were I to stat it out, I'd probably say say +2 AC, 5+Int/Wis/Cha mod damage when you're struck by a foe, and you are Slowed (ends when you stop sustaining the power). In addition, when you stop sustaining the power, it causes a Close Burst 2 Slow effect.

Hmm, I like that actually. It's a good power, fits the flavor and theme of the class well, and fills a void.

If I were to change the power to that, how else would you change the class for balance reasons?

Dust
2010-12-13, 08:12 AM
The only other thing I'd be cautious about is the chain-stunning potential of Cold Mastery/Ice Age. Non-solos have a 15% chance to break the Stun caused from a citical hit, which is pretty staggering good. Stuns are a game ender, and with that level of 'stickiness' to them you'd have some very unhappy Solo monsters.

If Cold Mastery was reduced to -2 instead of -5, I'd allow this class in a game. As it stands, I'd have to see a canon power with a similar effect to judge how good Cold Mastery really is - right now, just working off a hunch.

Edit: And hey! I forgot to say this, but I really like this paragon path! Good job!

Emongnome777
2010-12-13, 12:56 PM
I like the PP as well, but it does seem too powerful at first glance. I'd consider doing a couple of the following:

Freezing Action. What is the duration of the stun? Stun is very powerful, and a no-fail stun is pretty potent. Consider making this a daze effect or maybe slow and cannot take CA's until the end of your next turn?

Numbing Frost: 11th level, I presume? Maybe make the -1 effect against any cold effect instead of a blanket -1. In that case, I would see a -2 penalty as appropriate, but not both at the same time.

Cold Mastery: The cold resistance portion is important for this PP and shouldn't be touched. I might even add some rider about changing cold-immune creatures into high cold resist ones with respect to your cold powers. Another automatic stun effect is potent, however. I'd feel better if it were on the first crit each encounter (or just once per encounter max). The -5 to save is too powerful for sure. Make it a -2 at most.

Glacial Blast: Is it normal for an encounter power to have a half-damage miss effect? Otherwise, it's a good cold blast power. I would even consider making it 3d8 and targetting all creatures to balance it out.

Arctic Focus: I think this one's a little too attack-oriented for a utility power. It's also one of two sustain-minor-burst powers you have. It's balanced I think, just a little too much overlap. I'm not sure what alternative you'd want here, except maybe some ice-based shielding effect (just a thought).

Ice Age: "Enemies within the zone take a -2 to saves against the frozen, immobilized, and slowed conditions that are caused by cold effects." Did you mean stunned instead of frozen condition? This one's potent, but it's a daily and it's just a burst 1, so I think it's fine. My only concern is that it's more of the stunning effect powers. If nothing else, a little variety may be in order.

Just some thoughts on these. I really do like it, myself. I'm only guessing at what I would consider "balanced", but it would have to be play-tested to be sure. The stun effects may be no big deal or they may be game-breakers. You'll have to test it out to be sure. I also don't know how these powers will work with cold-based feats. Could be overpowered.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 02:23 PM
Sorry, I forgot I removed Frozen condition. I made some changes to Glacial Blast, Arctic Focus and Numbing Frost. What do you think of the class now?

I wanted Arctic Focus to be some kind of damage prevention or shielding power, but I couldn't figure out how to do that without making it too "attacky". Any ideas how you would do it?

Dust
2010-12-13, 05:25 PM
Hm. Not sure.
You overtuned Arctic Focus, though. Keeping it sustained means the bonus has to be significant, and 5/10 resist to two elements and 2 AC just isn't enough.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 05:33 PM
in all honesty I don't like it either. what I really want is to make it an encounter power, but not as it is now. it's gotta be balanced. I was thinking +2 ac, slows attackers, but sustains as a move action. so it kinda slows you down, but toughens you and slows enemies.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 09:03 PM
I realized that Numbing Frost is similar in effect to the feat Bitter Cold. I think I am gonna keep it anyway, since non wizards can't take bitter cold, and it allows spells that don't target Fort get buffed. I will add a line that it doesn't stack with the feat.

I am changing glacial blast to hit all creatures, since it makes more sense that way.

what do you think of the following changes to arctic focus:

- encounter power
- sustain move instead of minor
- damages enemies that hit you
- can only use cold powers
- you are slowed while it's active
- take out resist fire and cold that was previously listed
- still has the erupting effect which should have been burst instead of blast.

too good? what would you change to the template I just presented to make it balanced?

Crossfiyah
2010-12-13, 09:19 PM
By taking 2 feats, I can get a +4 to hit and a +5 to all damage with this paragon path.

Seems way, way too good.

stormywaters
2010-12-13, 11:45 PM
By taking 2 feats, I can get a +4 to hit and a +5 to all damage with this paragon path.

Seems way, way too good.

If you're referring to Lasting Frost, that has nothing to do with this path. That effectively gives you +5 damage as long as you only attack with Cold powers.

As to the +4 to hit, I assume you mean the combination of my Numbing Frost combined with the feat Wintertouched. If that is what you're talking about, I've already pointed out that Numbing Frost is almost the same as the feat Bitter Cold, with the only bonus being that Numbing Frost allows all cold powers to target Fort. However, both of the Wizard At-Wills with the Cold keyword already target Fort as it is. All I'm doing is expanding this ability to the few encounter or daily powers that don't do this.

Long story short, your points have almost nothing at all to do with this Paragon Path. You can create this same effect with nothing more than one extra feat (although mine would be marginally better than the extra feat, but that's what you get for devoting to a PP instead of taking one feat).

Anyway, I have made some changes to the original post. I have also renamed some powers because I didn't like the names. What do you think of my new armor iteration (now called Glacial Ward)? I want to to be an encounter, so I removed any defense bonuses and instead added a damage effect. I also added some extra restraints on it, since I wanted it to be encounter instead of daily.

Too good now? Would you lower the power level? If so, how?

stormywaters
2010-12-15, 04:50 AM
Bump for more feedback!

Talyn
2010-12-15, 03:47 PM
Ok, stunning is really, really good. This build hands out stuns like Halloween candy, including ones which never miss.

Freezing Action: Multiple stuns which never miss are too good, even at the cost of an action point. If, instead, you made them daze and slow, that would probably be fine.

Ice Age: Creating a zone which stuns, no attack necessary? Ludicrously overpowered, even if it only hits any given target once. Between this and Freezing Action, as long as you can get yourself adjacent to it, you can guarantee to keep literally anything stunned for two consecutive rounds - making you some sort of ultimate hybrid controller/defender.

If this power dazed and slowed instead, it would be fine, though you still ought to make it sustain Move, instead of Minor - that way, you have to choose between moving, attacking, and sustaining the aura.

stormywaters
2010-12-15, 11:46 PM
Ok, stunning is really, really good. This build hands out stuns like Halloween candy, including ones which never miss.

Freezing Action: Multiple stuns which never miss are too good, even at the cost of an action point. If, instead, you made them daze and slow, that would probably be fine.

Ice Age: Creating a zone which stuns, no attack necessary? Ludicrously overpowered, even if it only hits any given target once. Between this and Freezing Action, as long as you can get yourself adjacent to it, you can guarantee to keep literally anything stunned for two consecutive rounds - making you some sort of ultimate hybrid controller/defender.

If this power dazed and slowed instead, it would be fine, though you still ought to make it sustain Move, instead of Minor - that way, you have to choose between moving, attacking, and sustaining the aura.

Thanks for checking it out! I realize that the stun is too good to have thrown around like that. I changed both of the abilities you listed to daze and slow instead. However, I wanted a stun effect somewhere, so I also changed Cold Mastery to stun once per round on a critical hit. Does that seem ok? On a crit isn't too common, but I can change it from save ends to until the end of your next turn (or something).

What do you think now?

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-16, 08:31 PM
I thought this might look better with some nice formatting, so here I go! Spoilered for length, of course.
Frost Mage

http://www.mulander.com/wp-content/uploads/dw.jpg
Shan-Ya, Frost Mage sword magus

Requirements: Any arcane class, must have at least one at will, encounter, and daily spell with cold keyword.

Some fluff text!

Freezing Action (11th Level): You can spend an action point to slow and daze each enemy adjacent to you until the end of your next turn, instead of taking another action.

Numbing Frost (11th Level): Your arcane cold spells can target Fortitude instead of their normal defense. When you hit with an arcane cold power, the target takes a -2 to Fortitude against your arcane cold attacks until the end of your next turn. This ability does not stack with feats that apply a penalty to defenses.

Cold Mastery (16th level): Once per round when you score a critical hit with an arcane cold attack, the target that you scored a critical hit on is stunned (save ends). The targets take a -2 penalty to saves against this effect. Additionally, you gain resistance to cold damage equal to 5 + 1/2 your level, and your arcane cold spells ignore cold resistance up to this same amount.

Icy Blast
Encounter * Arcane, Cold, Implement
Standard Action * Close Blast 3
Target: Each creature in blast
Attack: Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma vs Reflex
Hit: 2d8 + intelligence, wisdom or charisma modifier cold damage and the target is immobilized (save ends)
Miss: The target is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Glacial Ward
Encounter * Arcane, Cold
Effect: You enter a glacial ward state until the end of your next turn. While in this state, you are slowed and you can only use powers with the cold keyword. Additionally, whenever an enemy damages you, that enemy takes cold damage equal to your 5 + the highest of your intelligence, wisdom and charisma modifiers.
Sustain Move: The effect lasts until the end of your next turn.
Special: At the end of a turn when you do not sustain this power, each enemy in a close burst 2 is slowed until the end of your next turn.

Ice Age
Daily * Arcane, Cold, Implement, Zone
Standard Close burst 1
Target: Each enemy in burst
Attack: Intelligence, Wisdom or Charisma vs Reflex
Hit: 3d6 + intelligence, wisdom or charisma modifier cold damage.
Effect: The burst creates a zone that lasts until the end of your next turn and moves with you. Any enemy that starts its turn in the zone becomes dazed and slowed (save ends both). Enemies within the zone take a -2 to saves against the stunned, immobilized, and slowed conditions that are caused by cold effects. Each enemy can only be affected by zone's (save ends) effect once per encounter.
Sustain Move: The zone persists

Now I am onto the criticism. Spoilered for length.
I think the encounter power should be a blast 5. I think the action point feature should give a bonus when a point is spent, rather than giving an alternate use. Paths which give alternate uses for Action Points do not mesh well with other action point support, and are thereby usually avoided. I don't have a better alternative in mind right now, but if I come up with one, I'll suggest it. Additionally, I don't like the 16th level feature. Its not bad, persay, but I don't like keying things off of crits as path features. Path features should come up more often than that.

Powers; I am okay with the first power, though it should be blast 5 or maybe blast 6, IMHO. The second power is quite nice, especially for a Swordmage (kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't). I would drop the slowed and make it daily, personally. The daily is alright, though you can make it sustain minor now that an enemy can only be affected by the zone 1/encounter.

Also, I don't know where you're looking, but Cold has much better support than Fire. Cold is tied for the second or third best damage type with Acid, after Radiant and Force/Thunder. Fire is the second worst, after Poison. Having said all that, I like the idea of giving support to a specific damage type. I think giving it some unique fluff would help too, and maybe a more inventive name. Never underestimate how much fluff plays a part in the feel of a homebrew.

Overall, a very nice first homebrew. Good job.

stormywaters
2010-12-16, 10:15 PM
Now I am onto the criticism. Spoilered for length.
I think the encounter power should be a blast 5. I think the action point feature should give a bonus when a point is spent, rather than giving an alternate use. Paths which give alternate uses for Action Points do not mesh well with other action point support, and are thereby usually avoided. I don't have a better alternative in mind right now, but if I come up with one, I'll suggest it. Additionally, I don't like the 16th level feature. Its not bad, persay, but I don't like keying things off of crits as path features. Path features should come up more often than that.

Powers; I am okay with the first power, though it should be blast 5 or maybe blast 6, IMHO. The second power is quite nice, especially for a Swordmage (kind of damned if you do, damned if you don't). I would drop the slowed and make it daily, personally. The daily is alright, though you can make it sustain minor now that an enemy can only be affected by the zone 1/encounter.

Also, I don't know where you're looking, but Cold has much better support than Fire. Cold is tied for the second or third best damage type with Acid, after Radiant and Force/Thunder. Fire is the second worst, after Poison. Having said all that, I like the idea of giving support to a specific damage type. I think giving it some unique fluff would help too, and maybe a more inventive name. Never underestimate how much fluff plays a part in the feel of a homebrew.

Overall, a very nice first homebrew. Good job.

I changed the action point feature to alternative point option because it was originally a stun, not a slow/daze. Is the slow/daze too good to be a bonus when spending an action point?

As for the level 16 ability, I wanted to have a freeze-solid option, but stuns are too good to have come up often. I thought about having some feature when X times per day or X times per encounter you can add Slow or Daze to one of your Cold spells. Is this something that would work? What else would you suggest?

Blast 5/6 seems really large. Are you sure about this?

As for the second power, I wanted it to be encounter. If there is a way to change it but keep it an encounter power, I'm all game. I just want there to be some kind of defense/armor/shielding/protection ability that can be used often, not once per day.

As for cold being one of the best, I don't see it. There are like 3 feats, most classes have very few cold powers, and I haven't seen a single cold-specific PP that was any good (Blizzard Mage? Ha!). Maybe it's not so much that cold isn't good, but that there aren't options for cold. If you plan to play a cold-based character, you have to take the same 3 feats, and basically every cold power, because most of the time, there is only one cold power at any given level. Plus, the only semi-decent cold item I can think of is the wizard tome that lets you swap powers for wall of ice or something.

Edit: Thanks for the replies and the compliments!

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-18, 10:03 PM
I changed the action point feature to alternative point option because it was originally a stun, not a slow/daze. Is the slow/daze too good to be a bonus when spending an action point?

"When you spend an action point to use a power with the Arcane and Cold keywords, any target hit by that attack is also slowed and dazed until the end of your next turn" would, I think, be a fairly balanced action point feature.

As for the level 16 ability, I wanted to have a freeze-solid option, but stuns are too good to have come up often. I thought about having some feature when X times per day or X times per encounter you can add Slow or Daze to one of your Cold spells. Is this something that would work? What else would you suggest?

You can just leave it as is. It was not really a balance issue so much as an issue of personal preference. I don't like paragon path features where the bonus is not consistent or reliable, but that's just me.

Blast 5/6 seems really large. Are you sure about this?

See Burning Hands, level 1 wizard encounter power. It does almost as much damage and though it, granted, does not immobilize, it is also 10 levels lower. Burning Hands is a burst 5, I think this power can be a burst 5 too.

As for the second power, I wanted it to be encounter. If there is a way to change it but keep it an encounter power, I'm all game. I just want there to be some kind of defense/armor/shielding/protection ability that can be used often, not once per day.

Typical rule of thumb: Encounter powers give bonuses for one round, two rounds tops. Daily powers give bonuses for an encounter, or can be sustained for up to an encounter. Sustained encounter powers are like encounter Stances - they effectively become permanent boosts and "default" powers to open each encounter with. So, get rid of the ability to sustain it and then drop the slowed penalty, or bump it up to daily, make it stay on without sustaining, and get rid of the slowed penalty. That's my opinion, at least.

As for cold being one of the best, I don't see it. There are like 3 feats, most classes have very few cold powers, and I haven't seen a single cold-specific PP that was any good (Blizzard Mage? Ha!). Maybe it's not so much that cold isn't good, but that there aren't options for cold. If you plan to play a cold-based character, you have to take the same 3 feats, and basically every cold power, because most of the time, there is only one cold power at any given level. Plus, the only semi-decent cold item I can think of is the wizard tome that lets you swap powers for wall of ice or something.

Being one of the best is contingent also on how many enemies resist it. The answer: Very few. Ice Archons, some elementals and White/Silver dragons are about it. However, a number of elementals (incl. many fire/water ones) are vulnerable to it in some way. And I'm not seeing many more feats for other damage types than there are for cold. Not to mention that the ones that do exist are pure gold.

Edit: Thanks for the replies and the compliments!

You're welcome.

My comments/replies are in bold.

stormywaters
2010-12-19, 02:44 PM
When you spend an action point to use a power with the Arcane and Cold keywords, any target hit by that attack is also slowed and dazed until the end of your next turn

I took this wording exactly. Sounds great!


See Burning Hands, level 1 wizard encounter power. It does almost as much damage and though it, granted, does not immobilize, it is also 10 levels lower. Burning Hands is a burst 5, I think this power can be a burst 5 too.
On your advice, I changed to close blast 5 instead of 3. I'll gladly take free power bumps if you guys think they're warranted.


Typical rule of thumb: Encounter powers give bonuses for one round, two rounds tops. Daily powers give bonuses for an encounter, or can be sustained for up to an encounter. Sustained encounter powers are like encounter Stances - they effectively become permanent boosts and "default" powers to open each encounter with. So, get rid of the ability to sustain it and then drop the slowed penalty, or bump it up to daily, make it stay on without sustaining, and get rid of the slowed penalty. That's my opinion, at least.

This is the only point I don't like. I understand that stances tend to be "default" powers, but I'm trying to make this a power you might not always use. Sure, you'll probably start most encounters with it, but given that it restricts which powers you can use, slows you, and requires a move action to sustain, it's one you'll need to dispel if you ever intend to move away from an attacker, move to gain line-of-sight, etc. You can either move or attack while sustaining this power (not both), and if you do move, it's only 2 squares at a time. So you are trading half your turn and mobility for an effect to damage enemies that attack you.

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-19, 03:17 PM
Fair enough on the Glacial Ward thing. It is effectively a 1 round bonus with all those restrictions, unless you're planning to be an immobile casting battery. Although, with that recoil damage, your need to move is also reduced - things will be less inclined to make opportunity attacks if they're burned automatically for potentially as much as they deal.

Also, I just had another thought for an addition. To the level 16 feature, you might consider adding "You consider immunity to cold to be resistance 40 for the purposes of this feature."

stormywaters
2010-12-19, 03:30 PM
Fair enough on the Glacial Ward thing. It is effectively a 1 round bonus with all those restrictions, unless you're planning to be an immobile casting battery. Although, with that recoil damage, your need to move is also reduced - things will be less inclined to make opportunity attacks if they're burned automatically for potentially as much as they deal.

Also, I just had another thought for an addition. To the level 16 feature, you might consider adding "You consider immunity to cold to be resistance 40 for the purposes of this feature."

All I want with Glacial Ward is a power that I can use each encounter and has some sort of defense/shielding effect for more than a turn. I mean... what if it was "... times per day", or "until [condition is met] you gain..." or "while you are ..."? I'll take any suggestions you have. Like I said, I want:

- Encounter power
- Decent duration (not one round, not necessarily entire encounter)
- Some defensive/protective effect

Any way you can make that happen, let me know!

As to the Level 16 ability, that's something I've been thinking about. Do you think 40 is high though? I had been thinking 25 or something closer (I seem to remember a similar effect for fire that treated immune as resist 25 but I can't for the life of me remember where).

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-20, 03:21 AM
An Ancient Red Dragon has Resist 40 Fire. An Efreet has Immune Fire. The difference is that the dragon breathes fire, while the efreet is made of fire. I think that 40 is about right, else immunity becomes less good than some of the higher non-immune resistances against a member of this path, which just doesn't make sense.

Also, how's this for an encounter power?

Glacial Armour
Encounter * Arcane, Cold
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: Until you leave your current square, you gain a +2 bonus to all your defenses, are immune to all pushes, pulls, slides and forced teleportations, and cannot be knocked prone or grabbed. While under this effect, any creature in a square adjacent to you which hits you with an attack takes 10 cold damage.
Special: Increase the cold damage to 15 at level 21.

stormywaters
2010-12-20, 03:44 AM
An Ancient Red Dragon has Resist 40 Fire. An Efreet has Immune Fire. The difference is that the dragon breathes fire, while the efreet is made of fire. I think that 40 is about right, else immunity becomes less good than some of the higher non-immune resistances against a member of this path, which just doesn't make sense.

Also, how's this for an encounter power?

Glacial Armour
Encounter * Arcane, Cold
Minor Action * Personal
Effect: Until you leave your current square, you gain a +2 bonus to all your defenses, are immune to all pushes, pulls, slides and forced teleportations, and cannot be knocked prone or grabbed. While under this effect, any creature in a square adjacent to you which hits you with an attack takes 10 cold damage.
Special: Increase the cold damage to 15 at level 21.

Fair enough, I'll set the immunity to resist 40 for purposes of reduction.

I love the encounter power. Do you think it's balanced? I mean, +2 all defenses, damaging enemies, and no sustain? Sure, you have to stay in one square, but +2 to all defenses is a pretty huge boost.

Talyn
2010-12-20, 06:05 PM
Glacial Armor is cool, but it ought to be sustain minor, at least. After all, you aren't moving anyways, but this prevents you from drawing and using a potion/alchemical item and making an attack in the same round.

Immunity should still be immunity, though - immunities are extremely rare and only the most powerful things have them, and they should remain inviolate.

stormywaters
2010-12-20, 10:41 PM
Glacial Armor is cool, but it ought to be sustain minor, at least. After all, you aren't moving anyways, but this prevents you from drawing and using a potion/alchemical item and making an attack in the same round.

Immunity should still be immunity, though - immunities are extremely rare and only the most powerful things have them, and they should remain inviolate.

I agree about Glacial Armor. I like it, but I feel like it should be restricted. I want to make it sustain (something) so it's not just a freebie to keep active.

As to the immunity, this wouldn't be the only thing to break immunities, and I think it should be there. If you are a master of the arcane cold arts, you should be able to strip away some of their immunity with your fast knowledge of cold.

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-20, 11:31 PM
You could make Glacial Armour a Sustain Move, I guess. You can't move anyway, so it lines up nice enough. And it does keep you from sustain too many other things at once, which is a nice downside to just tanking in one spot, since the main virtue of that is to be an unappetizing battery for a slew of sustainable area spells and summoned creatures.

tl;dr: Yeah, Sustain Move is probably a good balancing factor to add.

stormywaters
2010-12-20, 11:39 PM
Very good. Changed it to accommodate "Sustain Move", which totally works for me. Like I said, I just wanted an armor/defensive power that you could use each encounter and that had a good duration. This works beautifully, and the flavor behind it is wonderful (though my flavor text isn't all that great).

What else do you guys think? Read over the updated text and see if we can finalize this thing so I can submit it for approval with GMs.

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-21, 12:04 AM
I think the path itself needs flavour, fluff, whathaveyou. Right now, its just a rather focused, kinda generic set of interesting mechanics. It needs an infusion of fluff.

stormywaters
2010-12-21, 12:58 AM
Well of course! I'm going to fill in the flavor once I have the mechanics squared away. I added flavor text for the powers already.

stormywaters
2010-12-21, 01:51 AM
Ok, added a ton of fluff to the class to make it more fleshed-out. I was going to change the name, but I can't think of anything I really like... suggestions?

Lastly, I don't want to overload the class, but I really want to add a more "fluff" power that wouldn't be of much real use, but I think would be really cool to have in the class. What about something like this, as a "fluff" type of power:

Chilling Touch
Chilling Touch
Your touch chills liquids, creates ice or snow, or cools the air around you.
At-Will * Arcane, Cold
Standard Action * Melee Touch
Effect: Use this power to create one of the following effects:

Freeze up to 1 gallon of liquid into ice, or chill it.
Chill the air in your square by 15 degrees
Conjure a small lump of ice or snow in your hand.

Nothing you create with this power can deal damage, serve as a weapon or a tool, or hinder any other creature's actions. This power cannot duplicate the effect of any other power.
Special: These chilling effects last for 5 minutes, then they will melt/thaw as normal for the temperature in the area.
It's basically a simpler version of the Wizard cantrip Prestidigitation. I just wanted some cool little tricks that can't have any real gameplay effects, apart from being amusing. Would this be safe to add, or will it make the class too cluttered? I would really like to add this, if possible.

stormywaters
2010-12-22, 12:33 AM
Bump back to page one. What do you think of the freebie, combat-useless power I just listed?

Crossfiyah
2010-12-22, 02:41 PM
Utility should not be sustainable if it's an encounter power.

Level 16 feature still does way too much.

stormywaters
2010-12-22, 03:00 PM
As I stated before, I want the utility power to be encounter and have duration longer than one round. How would YOU do it?

As for the level 16 doing too much, I will just remove the stunning effect. I don't think it does too much, because it's all so situational, but whatever.

Shadow_Elf
2010-12-22, 11:35 PM
Utility should not be sustainable if it's an encounter power.

Level 16 feature still does way too much.

The sustain is more of a cost than an a bonus with the power in question.

And adding a level 11 feature which gives you that Chilling Touch cantrip would probably be fine.

stormywaters
2010-12-23, 12:16 AM
Ah excellent! I don't know what to do with the encounter utility? I am getting mixed feedback on it.

stormywaters
2010-12-23, 01:05 AM
Ok I changed it from "Sustain" to "You can only take one action each turn while this power is active". Maybe that will clear up the confusion that it's not a bonus to sustain, but a cost.

It means you can't sustain another power, while attacking, but I think I am ok with that. I also added the cantrip.

Any finishing touches? How is the flavor text?

Crossfiyah
2010-12-23, 05:26 AM
As I stated before, I want the utility power to be encounter and have duration longer than one round. How would YOU do it?

As for the level 16 doing too much, I will just remove the stunning effect. I don't think it does too much, because it's all so situational, but whatever.

What you want doesn't work. Either make it a daily, or take away the sustain.

I'm done. You're overly ambitious and you don't understand balance.

stormywaters
2010-12-23, 05:36 AM
Apparently you don't understand. You are saying, with no reasoning, that it simply can't be a sustainable power, because it's an encounter power. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, so that idea makes no sense.

Now if you'd like to explain, in detail, why this power is too good to be a sustainable encounter power, feel free. I would be glad to listen and consider your points. Don't be so rude about it; it's only a game.

Talyn
2010-12-23, 06:42 AM
Hmm, just thought of a problem: if you can only take one action per turn while Glacial Armor is up, you can't sustain an effect and do anything else. Sustain move should be okay for Glacial Armor - though it's unusual for an encounter power to have a sustain, I don't believe it's totally unprecedented.

Fluff looks good - I'd say you are ready to submit to your DM.

stormywaters
2010-12-23, 03:26 PM
Great! Thanks guys!

If you have a moment sometime, would you mind looking over my Epic Destiny linked in my signature? I would post the link here, but I am posting from my phone so I am not able to.

Thanks again!

Sipex
2010-12-23, 04:05 PM
The fluff power is cool, just make it so it uses your limit towards sustained prestidigitation effects since no other wizard path gets neat extra tricks.

Other than that I've never liked Encounter powers lasting one turn, especially numerical buffs/debuffs because it feels pretty useless (status effects I understand). That said, I don't know how it would fit in balance wise.

stormywaters
2010-12-23, 04:27 PM
What if I take out the bonus to all defenses, then add resist all damage of some amount, and each time you sustain it, reduce the resist by some amount?

Sipex
2010-12-23, 04:39 PM
That sounds plausible. That way the power eventually fizzles out (or becomes pointless to sustain). This also means the caster won't automatically pop the bonus at the start of every battle.

Edit: It's a very complex power. I just read the updated version. I didn't realise you were immobile.

stormywaters
2010-12-23, 05:04 PM
That sounds plausible. That way the power eventually fizzles out (or becomes pointless to sustain). This also means the caster won't automatically pop the bonus at the start of every battle.

Edit: It's a very complex power. I just read the updated version. I didn't realise you were immobile.

Well the idea is you freeze in place, and gain a defensive bonus as a result. I think I will remove the clause about moving/immobile and just make it resist 5 all, sustain move, each time you sustain it reduces by 1. Sound ok?

stormywaters
2010-12-24, 12:21 AM
Updated the powers. I decided against the Prestidigitation thing, since none of the powers can be maintained. They simply happen and are done, left to thaw on their own. Also, it's too confusing to word in the fact that it counts towards prestidigitation if your character has that power.

Finalized. Would you play it, or allow a person to play it?