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yldenfrei
2010-12-12, 08:00 PM
PREFACE: If a similar thread such as this has already been posted, then I apologize. Spot and Search are not my Class Skills. :P

Yes, yes, the warlocks get the worst of it with the Arcane Spellcasting Class rivalries, dubbed as "that harlot who graduated Arcane College by servicing the dean" :smalleek:

But I fell in love with the class in NWN2, and after reading a few of the differences between NWN2 and the 3.5DnD, I am convinced that the Warlock is a most enjoyable class to play in PnP.

So people of the Playground, please help me in acquiring all the necessary knowledge required to explore the nooks and crannies of the Warlock class. I seek all invocations, essences, and abilities, from the mundane to the obscure. I seek all the prestige classes that advance the Warlock's spellcasting progression. I also welcome suggestions on builds and permutations.

To give a vague idea of what I'm trying to achieve, my avatar gives a nice jumping point. An overbearingly polite elf/half-elf with a marked fondness for the Infernal Glaive. Anything goes after that. Oh, and please always reserve one spell slot for Invisibility. :smallbiggrin:

I do not own any DnD book. I plan to start collecting, so all mentions of handbooks and reference guides will be greatly appreciated.

When in doubt about how much information you ought to share, I give you Haley Starshine's famous line:

:haley: "Don't make any assumptions about what I can and cannot sense, or do and do not know."

That is all. Many thanks! ^_^

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 08:04 PM
This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0). And my melee warlock handbook, in my sig. /thread

Psyren
2010-12-12, 08:06 PM
This (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.80). And my melee warlock handbook, in my sig. /thread

Let's be nice and link to the first page, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0) hmmm? :smallwink:

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 08:24 PM
Let's be nice and link to the first page, (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=2915.0) hmmm? :smallwink:

What are you talking about, that's exactly what I did. It's not like I psyrogue-edited my last post or anything.

Baveboi
2010-12-12, 09:17 PM
I think warlocks lose some on the spellcasting area but gain a lot on others. For example Invocations. If you get the right ones that do the right things you can be extremely hard guy to take down.
I once worked a trapper warlock, very fun to do.

My favourite build to warlock, however, has always been Psichic Warrior/Warlock/Wizard(With Devotion of The Arcanist)/Barbarian and go nuts with the possibilities. Walk on walls and bring the sky crashing down on others, imbue weaposn to deal 100+ damage as a standard attack. Use silences, charms and ground controls as move actions and teleport around the battlefield as an immediate action. Get to -50 HP and keep fighting like death incarnate.
Ahhhh the power. But with it comes great responsability.

"A sound soul resides in a sound body and a sound mind."

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 09:25 PM
My favourite build to warlock, however, has always been Psichic Warrior/Warlock/Wizard(With Devotion of The Arcanist)/Barbarian and go nuts with the possibilities. Walk on walls and bring the sky crashing down on others, imbue weaposn to deal 100+ damage as a standard attack. Use silences, charms and ground controls as move actions and teleport around the battlefield as an immediate action. Get to -50 HP and keep fighting like death incarnate.
Ahhhh the power. But with it comes great responsability.

"A sound soul resides in a sound body and a sound mind."
Imbue Weapon? What is that? Silence and charm as move actions?! Fighting at -50HP?! I never heard of any of those stuff. Is that from some 3rd party book?

Baveboi
2010-12-12, 09:35 PM
Imbue Weapon? What is that? Silence and charm as move actions?! Fighting at -50HP?! I never heard of any of those stuff. Is that from some 3rd party book?

Some are, some aren't. Some are metamagical, some are chain feats, some are psichic abilities.
I'm a friggin scavanger of many things D&D-like and I have no less than one hundred books. Many are legal material and some are only fluff-wise relevant, like Novels and such.

A bit OOC:
Hey, if you like scavanging quests try finding a Wand of Lichdom as described on the series Starlight and Shadows by Ellaine Cunningham. Thing is evil. Can turn a drow into a Drowlich in one round (and all that that involves).
The problem about novels is that the people who writte them often don't know the game, so they just make a lot of stuff up. Stuff that, later, comes to existance by the hands of those who actually make the game. xD Unfair or what?

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 09:43 PM
Some are, some aren't. Some are metamagical, some are chain feats, some are psichic abilities.
I'm a friggin scavanger of many things D&D-like and I have no less than one hundred books. Many are legal material and some are only fluff-wise relevant, like Novels and such.

Well, you should probably point out when you are using 3rd party stuff. Most discussions here are restricted to WotC material.

Baveboi
2010-12-12, 09:47 PM
Well, you should probably point out when you are using 3rd party stuff. Most discussions here are restricted to WotC material.

True. My fault, but so many things were WotC matterial that I didn't bother to think of it. Thanks.
But it's getting too OOC now. :smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 09:55 PM
True. My fault, but so many things were WotC matterial that I didn't bother to think of it. Thanks.
But it's getting too OOC now. :smalltongue:

Now, I wonder - what is WotC material in what you posted? I didn't recognize it.

yldenfrei
2010-12-12, 10:02 PM
OK, I did a first read-through of Thinblade's Compilation. I've come across most of the things mentioned there via NWN2 custom contents, so I guess it won't be too hard.

However, I can't find any mention of the PrC Knight of Tierdrial in the DnD reference materials I'm browsing. I really really wanted a high BAB class which also advances warlock invocation progression. Is there any alternative available for me?

If anyone's interested, this is what I'm trying to convert to PnP:
Half-elf Infernal Lancer (http://nwn2db.com/build.php?id=44326&version=1).

It's basically a CHA warlock wielding a halberd-buckler combo, with (GASP!) Hideous Blow (GASP!). Unoptimized, I know. But definitely RP material. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2010-12-12, 10:04 PM
Now, I wonder - what is WotC material in what you posted? I didn't recognize it.

I can source the wall-walking and immediate teleports... but that's about it...




It's basically a CHA warlock wielding a halberd-buckler combo, with (GASP!) Hideous Blow (GASP!). Unoptimized, I know. But definitely RP material. :smalltongue:

...Eew.

Sure you don't want to use Glaive instead?

tyckspoon
2010-12-12, 10:04 PM
Now, I wonder - what is WotC material in what you posted? I didn't recognize it.

I know of at least two ways to continue fighting regardless of how negative your HP pool gets (Delay Death spell and the Frenzied Berserker's Deathless Frenzy), there's several swift/immediate action teleports.. Up The Walls lets you run around on walls for the duration of a move as long as you're psionically focused.. I'm not familiar with the other stuff, tho. There's not a lot (or.. any, that I'm actually aware of) of official WotC stuff that lets you use a Move action to perform a major combat effect; they're usually limited to either an actual movement or readying another item.

true_shinken
2010-12-12, 10:14 PM
I can source the wall-walking and immediate teleports... but that's about it...
Yeah, that I did as well. Either Up the Walls or the warlock's spider climb + Abjurant Jaunt.



It's basically a CHA warlock wielding a halberd-buckler combo, with (GASP!) Hideous Blow (GASP!). Unoptimized, I know. But definitely RP material. :smalltongue:
Hideous Blow! OMG! yldenfrei, you just dealt a hideous blow to my heart!
OK, now seriously. You can use eldritch glaive + heavy shield even. Hideous blow really really really sucks. Check my melee warlock handbook, I deal with stuff like that there.
High BAB class for Melee-lock? My favourite is Cyran Avenger.

yldenfrei
2010-12-12, 10:55 PM
I knew people would have a seizure everytime they'll see the Hideous Blow on my Character Sheet. :smallbiggrin:

My spell progression goes like Eldritch Glaive, Devil's Own Luck, Hideous Blow. I figured there'll be a time when I'll come across a weapon surpassing my Eldritch Glaive, and a Hideous Blow prepared before Walking Unseen and giving my first blow would be nice. There's also the matter of not being able to move around while Glaiving, right?

Ugh, I have a lot to learn about moving and taking actions in PnP. :smallsigh:

The Cyran Avenger looks nice, but it's capped at 5 Lvls, so I won't be able to reach my 25 BAB goal. Any other PrC suggestions? ^_^

Thiyr
2010-12-12, 11:10 PM
Really, everything about hideous blow kinda sucks. The only real upside it has is that it isn't a full round action. On the downside, it can only ever hit once, it's not a touch attack, making hitting with it hard, if I remember right it provokes an AoO, and the damage gained from using a weapon is kinda...lackluster. There's really no weapon I can think of that would beat out glaive. The ability to full attack with glaive helps as well. And in the eventual case that you get quicken (Might I suggest Escalation Mage if your playgroup doesn't mind refluffing/ignoring the religion requirement?), making two full attacks a round is just kinda fun.

-is suddenly reminded of the gestalt rouge/warlock who goes for shadowpounce and quickened flee the scene to flank with his own illusion. Moar d6s!-

Edit: As for other suggestions: As mentioned, escalation mage (faiths of ebberon) is quite good, especially with the feat from...complete arcane? that lets you take 10 on caster level checks. Free metamagic that can be applied to invocations at little to no risk = awesome. Especially when they're free quickens. harder for your higher invocations, but even just quickening walk unseen helps, and a bonus EB a round never hurts (Though ask your DM if you can trade higher level actions for swift actions to fuel that if you do, helps a lot)

As for invocations, Chilling Tentacles is a great one, walk unseen and fell flight are great. Baleful Utterance is great, especially at low levels, as you can break just about anything that's an obstacle with it (and steal the rest to sell). Take Charm. Not only is it useful when somebody's trying to stiff you your fee, but it gets you into Mindbender for a one level dip. Progresses casting, and with a feat, you can "see" everything within 100 feet -with your mind- (so long as -it- has a mind). Also, Vitriolic blast is nifty for letting you blast constructs or stuff with spell resistance. Don't forget that your invocations have no verbal component, as well. Make use of UMD, pick up some scrolls of silence and make enemy casters frustrated for their inability to cast while you're invisibly floating above them.

Newbieshoes
2010-12-12, 11:14 PM
Also warlocks are completely shutdown by a globe of invulnerability.

Thiyr
2010-12-12, 11:22 PM
Also warlocks are completely shutdown by a globe of invulnerability.

This is, also, a complete falsehood. The level casters can get globe of invulnerability, warlocks get greater invocations. This gets them chilling tentacles, an extremely painful area battlefield control spell which is, conveniently, equivalent to a 5th level spell, overcoming globe of invul (and screwing up whoever decides to stay in it). Once you get to that point, your invocations start getting to above that level.

Edit: Your eldritch blast will have a hard time working unless you take a higher essence/shape (remember, eldritch blast was errata'd to always be a 1st level unless the shape or essence is higher, no longer is it half your level) And your other greater/dark invocations should still work for the most part.

Edit2: Also, Warlocks -are- kinda nifty in being a class without a mainstat. Don't let CArcane lie to you, you don't need charisma if you avoid things with a save (the only exception I'd say is charm. That's still a good invocation to have around if not just due to the prerequisite fulfillment. And using it to make the low-level NPCs your buddy). There is no stat they absolutely require, so you can put stats where they make sense for what you're doing, without worrying about a casting stat.

Psyren
2010-12-12, 11:56 PM
I knew people would have a seizure everytime they'll see the Hideous Blow on my Character Sheet. :smallbiggrin:

It's not so much "seizure" on my part... more like "projectile vomiting."


My spell progression goes like Eldritch Glaive, Devil's Own Luck, Hideous Blow. I figured there'll be a time when I'll come across a weapon surpassing my Eldritch Glaive, and a Hideous Blow prepared before Walking Unseen and giving my first blow would be nice. There's also the matter of not being able to move around while Glaiving, right?

Ugh, I have a lot to learn about moving and taking actions in PnP. :smallsigh:

Just use your normal EB and Flyby Attack imo

yldenfrei
2010-12-13, 12:37 AM
Ok. I greatly appreciate the inputs and suggestions. But some of the things are flying way over my head now, so first things first.

If I'm ever gonna start on my Character Sheet, I need materials, right? So:

Player's Handbook (and Handbook II if I manage to find it)
Complete Arcane


What else? :smalleek:

Also, is there an elven sub-race that has no favored class (or at least favors Fighter/Rogue)? I'm hopefully looking for a more diminutive physique than half-elf without going small size.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-13, 01:02 AM
Okay, the thing about a Hellfire Glaivelock is that you have to recognize it's strengths and it's weaknesses...

Glaive really isn't all that powerful for them unless they have some way of getting Divine Power, because they don't really get a lot of attacks. You see, Warlock is a 3/4 BAB class, then you start dipping out of that to a 1/2 BAB class... so BAB? Not so much. You might have one iterative attack, but probably not more unless you've got Haste going.

You can do almost as well by using a regular Eldritch Blast with Hellfire augmentation and sniping at range, without having to close to 10'. You loose, what, a single attack?

And if you rebut with "But locks can UMD like mad things, so you can always bring a wand of Divine Power", you have to consider two things:

1) Action Economy. You blow an entire round so you can hit more frequently after your opponents are dead. Ummm.... yea.

2) Monetary Economy. You're looking at over 20k for that wand of divine power, for 50 charges. That's over 400gp you're blowing every single combat. Yanno... that adds up shortly. And the initial investment prohibits it until much later than most HFW builds come online for. Personally, I'd just grab a Lesser Cloak of Displacement for the price of the wand.


Ok. I greatly appreciate the inputs and suggestions. But some of the things are flying way over my head now, so first things first.

If I'm ever gonna start on my Character Sheet, I need materials, right? So:

Player's Handbook (and Handbook II if I manage to find it)
Complete Arcane


What else? :smalleek:

Also, is there an elven sub-race that has no favored class (or at least favors Fighter/Rogue)? I'm hopefully looking for a more diminutive physique than half-elf without going small size.

Dragon Magic for Eldritch Glaive, and Hellfire Warlock (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) is found in Fiendish Codex. If you want to not kill yourself from Con damage, you'll also want Tome of Magic for Binder.

Any reason why you don't want to be Small or smaller? Keep in mind, the damage from your Glaive and range of the Glaive is completely unaffected by your size.

Psyren
2010-12-13, 01:56 AM
Ok. I greatly appreciate the inputs and suggestions. But some of the things are flying way over my head now, so first things first.

If I'm ever gonna start on my Character Sheet, I need materials, right? So:

Player's Handbook (and Handbook II if I manage to find it)
Complete Arcane


What else? :smalleek:

- Try and get Complete Mage and Dragon Magic for more and better invocations/PrCs.
- MM1 gives you Flyby Attack (or just use the SRD)
- FC2 has the awesome Hellfire Warlock

yldenfrei
2010-12-13, 01:58 AM
Actually, I'm wary about the the Hellfire Warlock. Because of it I died more times than I care to count in NWN2. I may be able to monitor my CON damage better in PnP, but overall the Hellfire Warlock flavor seems too spicy for my taste. Still, Fiendish Codex added to my list, if only for off-hand information. :smalltongue:

But Eldritch Glaive, yes. So Dragon Magic added to my list.

As for creature size, it's just a matter of personal preference, ease of roleplaying and all that. I find halflings and gnomes inelegant and rowdy, and I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the character well. If forced, I could consider the Pixie.

That, and my favorite weapon group is the Polearm. :smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Your suggesting Flyby Attacks also imply I should also take Fell Flight, right? :smallwink:

Thiyr
2010-12-13, 02:17 AM
Fell Flight: Yes. Yes yes yes.

Also, Faiths of Ebberon, if you have/can find it, has the Escalation Mage (Which I am always surprised I never hear about, even though it is so very awesome for warlock. I can't suggest it enough. Free metamagic all day at somewhat low risk for the cost of a swift action per metamagic, with the rest of the costs being easy to overcome? Sign me up!)

yldenfrei
2010-12-13, 05:22 AM
Ok, I am getting a better hang of the Move-Action Mechanics. Apparently it operates similarly as strategy RPGs (FFTactics come to mind). I guess I can understand it much easier.

Question: When can one create a new character? Will the Character Creation need to be attended to by a DM?

After some more reading I am getting some sense of which Invocations I want to take.

Least: Eldritch Glaive, Dark One's Own Luck, Baleful Utterance
Lesser: Fell Flight, Charm/Ignore the Pyre, Walk Unseen
Greater: Vitriolic Blast, Chilling Tentacles, Warlock's Call/Devour Magic
Dark: Eldritch Doom, Utterdark Blast, Path of Shadow/Dark Discorporation

Question: Ignore the Pyre, how exactly does this work in PnP? How much elemental resistance does an 8th level Warlock generate?

Question: Path of Shadow's description says it works as the spell Shadow Walk. Does this mean I can bring others? Do I/we disappear from the Material Plane? Also, if I dispel it in the next round, would it still shunt me in a random direction, effectively functioning as a randomized Dimension Door? Also, what causes 'shadowy illumination'?

EDIT:

More reading. Considering the following Invocations as well:

Least: Swimming the Styx
Lesser: Disembodied Hand (to be used with great caution :smalleek:)
Greater: Nightmares Made Real
Dark: Caster's Lament

Question: Baleful Utterance. Do you take an alignment hit everytime you use it?

Question (most probably a stupid one) : I can swap one invocation for another of the same grade every level up, right? :smallbiggrin:

Prime32
2010-12-13, 07:31 AM
Actually, I'm wary about the the Hellfire Warlock. Because of it I died more times than I care to count in NWN2. I may be able to monitor my CON damage better in PnP, but overall the Hellfire Warlock flavor seems too spicy for my taste. Still, Fiendish Codex added to my list, if only for off-hand information. :smalltongue:Take a level of binder (Tome of Magic). Among other things, binding the Naberius vestige lets you autoheal 1 point of ability damage per round. The flavour of the two classes is also very similar.

Bloodline levels (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/races/bloodlines.htm) stack with your HW levels for determining its damage bonus.


EDIT:

However, I can't find any mention of the PrC Knight of Tierdrial in the DnD reference materials I'm browsing. I really really wanted a high BAB class which also advances warlock invocation progression. Is there any alternative available for me?It appears to be an adaptation of eldritch knight (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/eldritchKnight.htm). As WotC's first attempt at a "gish" PrC it's not exactly spectacular, and warlocks can't enter it without houserules since they don't get the ability to cast spells.

Note also: Shadow Pouncing = awesome

Duke of URL
2010-12-13, 08:23 AM
Good books to have:


Complete Arcane - Defines the Warlock and lots of invocations
Complete Mage - Additional PrCs and invocations
Dragon Magic - Additional invocations. See if your DM will let you use Dragonfire Adept invocations as a Warlock.


Fiendish Codex II isn't necessary since Hellfire Warlock is available for free as a web article. As noted above, Tome of Magic if you want to dip Binder to heal Hellfire damage.

I'd also consider Complete Divine, if you want to go with hybrid divine builds. For example, Binder 1 / Warlock 4 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Mindbender 1 is a very flavorful and relatively effective combination (invoker level 17, 9th-level divine spells at caster level 15 [assuming a conservative reading of Ur-Priest]), though it might lag a little in the 6-12 level range. Edit: Of course, your character will pretty much be despised by... well... just about everybody in the setting.

yldenfrei
2010-12-13, 08:55 AM
Hmmm... coincidentally, my third planned language is Infernal. I guess HW is still open for consideration after all. Tome of Magic added to my list, then.

Also, the bloodline mechanics is a bit too unfamiliar for me (coming from NWN2), so I think I'll pass on it for now.

And yes, Eldritch Disciple please! I did some sort of a Tainted Martyr build with Warlock/Cleric combo before, and I enjoyed it mainly for the buffs. ^_^

Also:

Binder 1 / Warlock 4 / Ur-Priest 2 / Eldritch Disciple 9 / Hellfire Warlock 3 / Mindbender 1
6 class count? Is that for real? :smalleek:

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 08:57 AM
You might have one iterative attack, but probably not more unless you've got Haste going.
Actually, haste does not work with an eldritch glaive, sadly.



-is suddenly reminded of the gestalt rouge/warlock who goes for shadowpounce and quickened flee the scene to flank with his own illusion. Moar d6s!-

That doesn't work as well. Eldritch glaive requires a full-round action, pounce gives you a full-attack action.



As for creature size, it's just a matter of personal preference, ease of roleplaying and all that. I find halflings and gnomes inelegant and rowdy, and I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the character well. If forced, I could
Don't change it. Keep the size as you wanted. Changing your character concept because something else is 'more optimal' sounds really gross to me.



Note also: Shadow Pouncing = awesome
Yes, but for a warlock, it only works with eldritch claws.

Darastin
2010-12-13, 09:12 AM
Question: When can one create a new character? Will the Character Creation need to be attended to by a DM?
That usually depends on your group's preferences. If all house rules are known and you don't need to roll stats, you can build the character all by yourself. However, it's usially a good idea if you can contact the DM easily in the case of questions or to review the character. While the latter could be done at the beginning of the next session, I prefer doing it as soon as possible. Thus, if I need to change something, I still have plenty of time.


Dark: Eldritch Doom, Utterdark Blast, Path of Shadow/Dark Discorporation
Uh-oh! Traps ahead!

First, Utterdark Blast is a paper tiger. Unless you plan to command a horde of undead and heal them this way, it's not that great. "Save vs. two negative levels"? Yeah... well... with Noxious Blast, it's "Save vs. Out for a minute"! OK, it's only a greater invocation of 6th level instead of 8th so the save DC is two points lower, but a single failed save usually means victory while with Utterdark Blast, a single failed save merely means a mild to moderate inconvenience. Also, Utterdark Blast is blocked by Death Ward, which is a quite popular defense effect (as a spell, item or other ability). There aren't many defenses against nausea and the few existing ones are quite exotic (which means: rare).

Second, Dark Discorporation. This is by far the most stylish invocation known to mankind. Unfortunately, it is also the most useless. It limits you to move actions, so you're trapped in bat swarm form for 24 hours as dismissing an invocation requires a standard action. When I played a warlock a couple years ago I persuaded the DM to houserule dismissing it as a move action. Even with this minor upgrade, you'll hardly use it in combat, but at least it allows for some dramatic entrances :elan:


Question: Path of Shadow's description says it works as the spell Shadow Walk. Does this mean I can bring others?
Since the spell allows it and the invocation does not specifically limit it to yourself only: Yes, you can. However, only you benefit from the accelerated healing.


Do I/we disappear from the Material Plane?
Yes. For an observer, you simply disappear and appear at your destination.


Also, if I dispel it in the next round, would it still shunt me in a random direction, effectively functioning as a randomized Dimension Door?
By RAW it does, but I doubt that it is intended this way. IMHO the randomness is supposed to model the fact that you can not clearly recognize the terrain while Shadow Walking, so you may miss your intended destination. However, if you do not move at all, I think it would be fair to rule that you reappear in the same place where you invoked it. You can still get the randomization effect by merely moving a little before dismissing it - which should be trivial unless you're somehow prevented from moving.


Also, what causes 'shadowy illumination'?
The Darkness spell and it's variants (including some invocations). Night, if moonlight or enough starlight is available; otherwise, it's complete darkkness - but IIRC the invocations works in complete darkness as well. Finally, in complete darkness, a light source (such as a candle, lantern, torch or light-producing spell) usually creates a certain radius of bright illumination and a zone of shadowy illumination beyond that (up to twice the radius of the brightly illuminated area).

Just my two €-cents;
Darastin

Duke of URL
2010-12-13, 09:22 AM
6 class count? Is that for real? :smalleek:

Sure, why not? Classes are a meta construct anyway, so as long as they mesh together well, who really cares if it's 1 class or 10? What is the character concept portayed, and do the mechanics support and represent that?

In this case, you have someone who is so into personal power that (s)he dabbles in generally forbidden forms of magic (binding vestiges and pact-making with demons or devils). To further this power, (s)he seeks to restore a dead god by robbing powers from other deities. Eventually, (s)he taps into the power of hellfire itself. Mindbender is an add-on, really. It works with the concept (using telepathy to help use and control others), and mechanically it's extremely easy to qualify for. You could go ED 10, if you want to keep the class count lower and pick up the last gift of the patron instead.

Your character is not your classes. Your classes mechanically represent your character concept.

Dragonmuncher
2010-12-13, 09:58 AM
I'd just to like to take a moment to interject that Shatter-at-will is incredibly fun.

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 11:18 AM
Sure, why not? Classes are a meta construct anyway, so as long as they mesh together well, who really cares if it's 1 class or 10? What is the character concept portayed, and do the mechanics support and represent that?
Instead of going into the whole highly disputable 'classes are metagame concepts' stuff... the OP is confused because of Neverwinter Nights. You can have at most 4 classes on it or something like that.

Prime32
2010-12-13, 11:32 AM
Just noticed this:

As for creature size, it's just a matter of personal preference, ease of roleplaying and all that. I find halflings and gnomes inelegant and rowdy, and I'm not sure I'd be able to handle the character well. If forced, I could consider the Pixie.The handbook recommends whisper gnomes, who are known for being eerily quiet. Conversely, pixies are usually a lot more rowdy than halflings.

Petals (Monster Manual II, IIRC) are an interesting race who get Damage Reduction/cold iron (stacking with the warlock's), ability bonuses in the right places and flight. Plus they're Tiny, making them good at hiding and very hard to hit.

Psyren
2010-12-13, 11:34 AM
Whisper Gnomes and Ghostwise Halflings both get around the "rowdy" nature of their fellows. Strongheart Halflings are also great for a melee-focused build with their more martial/serious attitude. (The bonus feat doesn't hurt either.)

Duke of URL
2010-12-13, 12:40 PM
Instead of going into the whole highly disputable 'classes are metagame concepts' stuff... the OP is confused because of Neverwinter Nights. You can have at most 4 classes on it or something like that.

True. That's a software limitation. In PnP, there's no limit to the number of classes and prestige classes you can take, beyond potentially annoying your DM into simply saying "no". I'd like to think that the Binder/Warlock/Ur-Priest/Eldritch Disciple combination makes a lot of sense, to the point where it looks more like "cool concept" instead of "muchkin-y powergaming". Hellfire Warlock isn't too much of a stretch to add here, to get the damage level up. The Mindbender dip is simply a "nice to have", with the telepathy being (in my mind) a nicer class feature than taking ED 10.

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 12:45 PM
I'd like to think that the Binder/Warlock/Ur-Priest/Eldritch Disciple combination makes a lot of sense, to the point where it looks more like "cool concept" instead of "muchkin-y powergaming".
It does have the problem that Eldritch Disciple requires having a deity while Ur-Priest requires not having a deity.

Swooper
2010-12-13, 01:08 PM
Instead of going into the whole highly disputable 'classes are metagame concepts' stuff... the OP is confused because of Neverwinter Nights. You can have at most 4 classes on it or something like that.
I bet he's also expecting the multiclass XP penalty to kick his a$$, while hardly any groups use that rule as far as I'm aware of.

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 01:11 PM
I bet he's also expecting the multiclass XP penalty to kick his a$$, while hardly any groups use that rule as far as I'm aware of.

I use that rule. I have yet to meet a group that doesn't use it, but the way D&D rolls here in Brazil is completely different form what you see in the forums.

Prime32
2010-12-13, 01:14 PM
Never seen a group use that rule. Why would you penalise a swashbuckler type over a soldier or an assassin?

Psyren
2010-12-13, 01:23 PM
It does have the problem that Eldritch Disciple requires having a deity while Ur-Priest requires not having a deity.

You can get around that with the Ur-Priest adaptation, which allows dead deities.

The only problem is it's hard to find one that's good-aligned.

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 01:24 PM
Never seen a group use that rule. Why would you penalise a swashbuckler type over a soldier or an assassin?
You mostly won't, because they tend to be human, half-elven or halflings. The rule is there to help explain why most elf adventurers are wizards and stuff like that. Anyway, you're free to houserule whichever way you want anyway.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-13, 01:25 PM
You can get around that with the Ur-Priest adaptation, which allows dead deities.

The only problem is it's hard to find one that's good-aligned.

Mystra during during the spellplague?:smalltongue:

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 01:37 PM
You can get around that with the Ur-Priest adaptation, which allows dead deities.

The only problem is it's hard to find one that's good-aligned.

Adaptation is DM-dependant anyway, so that's not much of a problem.
Cleric/Warlock/Eldritch Disciple is already pretty good.
Ur-Priest, as usual, is just powergaming. You're not trying to create a concept, you're just trying to squeeze plusses. I wouldn't allow it in my games, but I believe it could fly in any 'arms race' kind of game like I see here from time to time.

Duke of URL
2010-12-13, 01:40 PM
It does have the problem that Eldritch Disciple requires having a deity while Ur-Priest requires not having a deity.

As noted above, Ur-Priest's write-up allows for following dead deities as opposed to being an atheist.


I bet he's also expecting the multiclass XP penalty to kick his a$$, while hardly any groups use that rule as far as I'm aware of.

There are only two base classes in that entire mix. As long as you have favored class (any, binder, or warlock), the MC rules don;t kick in even if they are used. And you can get around that with Binder 2 / Warlock 3 anyway, at the cost of 1 invoker level.


Ur-Priest, as usual, is just powergaming. You're not trying to create a concept, you're just trying to squeeze plusses. I wouldn't allow it in my games, but I believe it could fly in any 'arms race' kind of game like I see here from time to time.

I see it as overcoming the flaws in multiclassing under the 3.x system. The rapid cleric casting advancement is hardly ever game-breaking -- the early entry via Binder / Warlock would at best keep the Ur-Priest 1 spell level ahead of a straight Cleric, but with a lower caster level and only at ECL 14+. Without using Binder / Warlock or similar early entry trick, being ahead of a straight cleric isn't a realistic possibility.

Still, I'd only use this build for a BBEG (or sub-boss) or in a high-optimization game above ECL 13 or so,

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 01:50 PM
As noted above, Ur-Priest's write-up allows for following dead deities as opposed to being an atheist.
The adaptation section is basically 'this could be a nice houserule'. It's not RAW. Also, there is the problem of actually finding a good aligned dead deity as well.



I see it as overcoming the flaws in multiclassing under the 3.x system. The rapid cleric casting advancement is hardly ever game-breaking -- the early entry via Binder / Warlock would at best keep the Ur-Priest 1 spell level ahead of a straight Cleric, but with a lower caster level and only at ECL 14+. Without using Binder / Warlock or similar early entry trick, being ahead of a straight cleric isn't a realistic possibility.
Those are good points indeed. Still reeks of cheese to me, but at least it's better than straight up Ur-Priest.


Still, I'd only use this build for a BBEG (or sub-boss) or in a high-optimization game above ECL 13 or so,
That sounds alright.

Psyren
2010-12-13, 01:54 PM
The adaptation section is basically 'this could be a nice houserule'. It's not RAW. Also, there is the problem of actually finding a good aligned dead deity as well.

Of course it's RAW. It's a rule, and it's written by WotC. It may be a variant rule, but still a rule.

And the good-aligned bit is only to use Healing Blast; you can be an Ur-Priest/ED of Moander, Tenebrous etc. just fine if you don't mind being a bastard.

Baveboi
2010-12-13, 02:03 PM
As noted above, Ur-Priest's write-up allows for following dead deities as opposed to being an atheist.

There are different types of worship, too. Demon Princes, Dukes of Hell and other powers. You can basically worship anything that grants powers and IS a power of it's own, like the Lady of Pain (even thought I don't know if she grants powers to others...).
Some Dragons are also known to have God-Like powers and grant divine spells.
Some powerful NPCs are also demipowers (the Lichqueen of the Githyanki for example) in a way they can grant favours to their worshippers.
The list goes on: Beholders, some Epic monsters, Elder Evils, very old Solars, etc.

You don't need to worship a "god". You can worship pretty much anything that has some power to share.

Akal Saris
2010-12-13, 03:12 PM
You know, it is a little bizarre that there aren't many dead Good-aligned deities in published 3.5 settings. You'd think there would be a bunch of deities who sacrificed themselves for the followers or the Greater Good or something.

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 03:24 PM
You don't need to worship a "god". You can worship pretty much anything that has some power to share.
Sure you can, but that's not what Ur-Priest is about.


You know, it is a little bizarre that there aren't many dead Good-aligned deities in published 3.5 settings. You'd think there would be a bunch of deities who sacrificed themselves for the followers or the Greater Good or something.
It makes a lot of sense. Kind of sad to see such a good plot hook go to waste, even.

Baveboi
2010-12-13, 03:39 PM
I have to agree on the Good Aligned Dead God thing. They often are reborn or re-ascend into a different form. I wonder why is that.
There's that bit of lore about the Astral Plane that dictates you can find thousands of forgotten gods floating into the infinite seas. You could make up one, if your DM isn't that peachy...

But them again why not Cleric, Archivist or any other class with divine progression that fits the character way better?


Sure you can, but that's not what Ur-Priest is about.

I thought Ur-Priest was about giving the middle finger to gods and powers alike by leeching them of divine energy to fuel yours.
It's a possibility to aply that to a Demon Prince for example (well, just until it tires and hunt you down and eat your soul, but hey! no plan is perfect).

true_shinken
2010-12-13, 03:43 PM
But them again why not Cleric, Archivist or any other class with divine progression that fits the character way better?

That! That is my whole point. I was seeing Ur-Priest as very munchkiny, though Duke of URL has a good point on why it's not completely so.

yldenfrei
2010-12-13, 06:03 PM
Thanks, everyone! Between your discussions and reading references I feel like on a crash course.

Petal looks to be a viable alternate race for me, RP and build-wise (A black Orchid petal, why not? :smallbiggrin:). Still, my first preference would be half-elf/elf.

@Darastin:

Hmmm, when you put it that way, Utterdark Blast doesn't seem so good after all. I also thought nauseated was a minor inconvenience, guess I was wrong then. :smalltongue:

Greater: Vitriolic Blast, Chilling Tentacles, Noxious Blast
Dark: Eldritch Doom, Path of Shadow, Caster's Lament

Question: Is counterspelling via Caster's Lament (w/c if I understand correctly, functions like Greater Dispel Magic) a viable tactic for Warlocks? How much is the margin for failure, and is it worth it? Also, how useful in general is its Break Enchantment function?

Question: Is it worth it to exchange Dark One's Own Luck for Darkness in the later levels to better facilitate my Path of Shadow? Or how about Charm/Ignore the Pyre for Hungry Darkness?

RE: deity worship and the divine hybrid build

Love the discussion on roleplay impact.

Question: Is it possible (mechanics and RP-wise) for a Chaotic Good/Neutral to start out worshipping (or more accurately, born into worshipping) an Evil god (fulfilling requirements of cleric/eldritch disciple), then betraying said god and vows its destruction, either via chaining its thralls (via Binder) and/or stealing power from the god itself (via Ur-priest).

Kinda makes for a nice non-evil warlock story.

After-note: Blast! Ur-Priest requires evil alignment! How sad... :smallfrown:

VirOath
2010-12-14, 01:58 AM
You mostly won't, because they tend to be human, half-elven or halflings. The rule is there to help explain why most elf adventurers are wizards and stuff like that. Anyway, you're free to houserule whichever way you want anyway.

Though I do run with groups that do enforce the multiclass penalty, this quote here is where it falls apart. Since the favored class is almost always a Core Class, or a class presented in the Races Of series and even then only to races from that series, classes added by other sources get shafted hard by this rule.

The concept of the rule was to cut down on class jumping, but it does little to stop or slow it (just take a look at all of the 1-2 level dip suggestions). What it really does hurt are these extra classes and the races other than humans.

Why should a Warlock not ever be able to count towards a favored class, why must it always hurt the player and force them to be more careful with their build unless they want to play a human. This is where the cracks in the rule really start to show, the lack of flexibility to accommodate other classes or a "Warlock can count as a Wizard for the Favored Class portion of Racial Traits" , it lacks anything of that.

So it's a rule that just places more power and options at the feet of Humans in an unfair manner, by excluding base classes added by the Complete series as options without a careful plan and build, because the Multiclass Penalty hurts the party dynamic, isn't really fun, and being levels behind everyone is a serious kick in the chops.

Yes, it's easy enough to house rule to fix, and it's even very reasonable while keeping the flavor. It's still something I would like to have seen scorched from every DnD book out there. It's a little rule that I feel encourages munchkining (or at the very least doesn't discourage it) while punishing out of the box concepts for characters. It just further promotes racial stereotypes as well as the power of the Human over racial diversity.

@yldenfrei: Caster's Lament looks good on paper, but take into account a few things. It can break enchantments as per the spell "Break Enchantment" as a standard action, problem? It's an 8th level Invocation that replicates lower level spells in the weakest of ways.

The real problem is that it isn't Greater Dispel Magic at will. As awesome as that would be, it can only use an even more restricted version of just one aspect of Greater Dispel Magic. You can only use it to counterspell (Something that is rare from a tactical point, moreso when you consider you have Chilling Tentacles), which means you have to go first and hold your action, waiting for the caster to cast. Then the spell has to be 7th level or lower, and even then you must still make the Opposed Caster Level check. It's not a utility option really, and even if you were the only Arcane User in the party, by this level it out be better to get an Eternal Wand of Break Enchantment than to devote a big part of your character's development to something like Caster's Lament.

Eldritch Doom looks really cool again. But it's a 20ft burst centered on you, with an action that will provoke an attack of opportunity. It's only one hit, and even then it's Reflex For Half (the bane of any and all blasting, and by this level everything and it's dog has some form of evasion). Now the good thing is that this is something that lets you pick your targets, so it's good for AOE buffing for the undead. But being as this wasn't what you had in mind for your character, this isn't a strong option.

Eldritch Doom has a cool factor, for sure. But it's just a firework unless combined with something else. And using a Blast to debuff with it isn't that strong (Reflex for Half/None, and then a Fort For Negate for the debuff, less saves means better). While it is good for Buffs, as it can pick and choose which targets it hits as to not impact party members, if you are looking for a way of hitting many targets at once, Eldritch Chain (or if you prefer, Cone) is a better choice.

Another thing to look at is what requires saves, and what doesn't allow them. Chilling Tentacles doesn't allow saves, Darkness doesn't allow saves, the best options a Warlock has doesn't allow saves. But you need to look at if you do have a high Cha if you want to make good use out of Save Invocations. And the Devil's Own Luck runs off of Cha as well.

Save Invocations aren't bad, they just require the investment of a stat. Many like Noxious Blast can be very good even, reducing targets to Move Actions only is huge. But it requires a good Cha to use well, and if this is already hurting your stats than it might not be good. If you have the stats for it, go for it.

Now if you are looking for Doom level Invocations that are strong, Retributive Invisibility (Greater Invis at will, with a twist) and Word Of Change (Baleful Polymorph at will, no limit. Cha based save to negate, sure, but it's still awesome.) are good. And you can always pick a lower level Invocation with a higher slot.

yldenfrei
2010-12-14, 02:37 AM
*snip*
*snip*
...And you can always pick a lower level Invocation with a higher slot.

Ok, that last sentence made me :eek: big time. I seriously did not know that. So that means I can dump Eldritch Doom and Caster's Lament for Eldritch Chain and Darkness then? Wow. My Invocation choices will definitely be reconsidered.

And yeah, I recently learned that I can just distract a caster instead of counterspelling them. I guess Chilling Tentacles is a lifesaver on that one.

My character has top priority on CHA, so hopefully I can get good mileage from Save Invocations. ^_^

Wow. It seems that many Dark Invocations are screwed up. Word of Changing now gets my attention though, as it apparently operates very differently in PnP. It seems much more useful now, polymorphing enemies into small animals. I will also try a way to give up Walk Unseen for Retributive Invisibility.

Back to the drawing board!:smallbiggrin:

VirOath
2010-12-14, 02:52 AM
Well, do remember retraining. Walk Unseen is good throughout your character's lifespan, not only invisibility at will, but also trackless. Upgrading to Ret Invis is good if you have the room and the concept, but it isn't a case of Must Have.

And Invocations are pretty hit or miss just as spells are. Just that there are many, many more spells then there are Invocations, so just by random chance there are more Sweet Spot spells as they got more rolls on that table. Invocations are a much shorter list, sadly, so some Awesome is lacking.

Joseph Silver
2010-12-14, 02:54 AM
If you ever plan on playing 4e, warlocks are available right in the Player's Handbook. Unlike in 3.5, where the warlock's power source is mostly fluff, the 4e warlock's Pact plays a big role in terms of fluff and crunch. The three Pacts listed in the Player's Handbook are the Infernal Pact (a literal Deal with the Devil), the Fey Pact (a pact with the wild and chaotic entities of Faerie), and the Star Pact (Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn!).

In Dragon Magazine (reprinted I think in Arcane Power), is a feat called Dual Pact. It basically lets the warlock have two Pacts.

Wizard: So you sold your soul to the Devil and Cthulhu. What happens when you die?

Warlock: I won't. :smallcool:

yldenfrei
2010-12-14, 03:18 AM
@VirOath

Yeah, I just remembered Retrib. Invis. is only 1 round/level whereas Walk Unseen is 24 hours. Sure I can recast it over and over, but that's not so handy when I need to sneak around for long periods of time. Also. Walk Unseen fits like a glove to my character concept. I haven't read anything about Walk Unseen being trackless, though. Where is it mentioned?

As for the Hit or Miss, that's what I love about Warlocks. So long as someone else is keeping the enemy's attention I can try and try until the desired effect takes hold. A real-time take 20 :smallbiggrin:

Guess I really need to give space for Word of Changing, now. :smallcool:

Baveboi
2010-12-14, 06:57 AM
If your invocations are getting short you can always use a feat to get more. :smallwink: Extra Invocation isn't a viable feat 50% of the times, but I did found good reasons to take one or two.

There's also a part of the Invocations' fluff that say you can select spells/powers in place of an Invocation of the same level. I normally frown at this, but some feats (like Wild Talent) should open the doors for you there. Not to mention the RP possibilities.


I don't remember where but once I found something about a Prismatic Essence for Warlock's EB. It allowed you to roll the effects of a Prismatic Spray with the save for blinded and whatnot. I did a lot of random "turning to stone" with that one.
I think it was on Quintessencial Warlock or something like that. Was a third party for sure, but the idea is good.

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 07:47 AM
There's also a part of the Invocations' fluff that say you can select spells/powers in place of an Invocation of the same level. I normally frown at this, but some feats (like Wild Talent) should open the doors for you there. Not to mention the RP possibilities.
Wait, what?!

Prime32
2010-12-14, 08:06 AM
There's also a part of the Invocations' fluff that say you can select spells/powers in place of an Invocation of the same level. I normally frown at this, but some feats (like Wild Talent) should open the doors for you there. Not to mention the RP possibilities.Wait, what?!
How would that even work? Invocations aren't categorised by levels. :smallconfused:

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 08:11 AM
How would that even work? Invocations aren't categorised by levels. :smallconfused:
They do have 'equivalent spell level', though.
Of course, that would mean a level 1 Warlock would be able to spam 24/7 spells like alter self, glitterdust, scorching ray and wings of cover.
If this trick really works, Warlocks are going up quite a few tiers

Baveboi
2010-12-14, 08:32 AM
They do have 'equivalent spell level', though.
Of course, that would mean a level 1 Warlock would be able to spam 24/7 spells like alter self, glitterdust, scorching ray and wings of cover.
If this trick really works, Warlocks are going up quite a few tiers

I think it was on Complete Arcana itself, or maybe PHB2. They can switch adequate spells for the equivalent spell level, and even Psionic Powers using the Magic/Power Transparency rules.
But you know, it's completely arbitraty and only works with the DM's approval. I myself don't see a breaking point there since the DM can always rule something up.

Sooo... saying, for example, that the Warlock's Glitterdust (AKA Glitterlock:smalltongue:) have a duration of 1 round/3 CL or per Cha Mod isn't something that would break a game.

Of course, you can always keep using it, but someone eventually will save. Just like Noxious Blast, Frightening Blast or Beshadowed Blast and those deal damage (what I think makes Scorching Ray a bit silly really).


EDIT: OH! I also remeber using variants of the same rules for Metamagic Spell-Like abilities like the ones present on BoVD - that allow ONE single SL to be Empowered/Quickened/etc 3/day - and PHB2? (CM? CA? can't remember) that would allow all SL abilities to be Etcetera-ed 1/day.

Those make my belly all fuzzy like. I love that in Warlock.

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 08:35 AM
I think it was on Complete Arcana itself, or maybe PHB2.
I found nothing even remotely similar to this on the aforementioned books. Maybe you're confusing it with a house rule.

Baveboi
2010-12-14, 08:41 AM
I found nothing even remotely similar to this on the aforementioned books. Maybe you're confusing it with a house rule.

I'm sure I saw that somewhere, but can't remember where (there's only so much place in my mind for my daily spells:smalltongue:). When I get back from work I will consult my minions and see if I can dig it up inside my library.

Psyren
2010-12-14, 08:44 AM
The closest I can find is the rule that says "an invocation that mimics a specific spell can be used in place of that spell for the purposes of satisfying a prereq." E.g. you can use the darkness invocation to qualify for Child of Night, or the Speak With Animals invocation to qualify for Swanmay.

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 08:47 AM
The closest I can find is the rule that says "an invocation that mimics a specific spell can be used in place of that spell for the purposes of satisfying a prereq." E.g. you can use the darkness invocation to qualify for Child of Night, or the Speak With Animals invocation to qualify for Swanmay.

Warlock/Swanmay is awesome. Damn specific text about druid/ranger casting! Of course, I always ignore that lame part when I DM. Swanmay is redeemed warlock done right, not that lame Enlightened Soul - whose only borderline good class feature is the aura of menace.

Duke of URL
2010-12-14, 08:57 AM
Warlock/Swanmay is awesome. Damn specific text about druid/ranger casting! Of course, I always ignore that lame part when I DM. Swanmay is redeemed warlock done right, not that lame Enlightened Soul - whose only borderline good class feature is the aura of menace.

Of course, BoED was printed well before Complete Arcane, if my memory serves me correctly, so we can just assume that the authors of Complete Arcane simply forgot to rectify this error.

Of course, the skill pre-reqs are hard for a straight-classed Warlock, though a 1-level Ranger or Druid dip could certainly help there.

Psyren
2010-12-14, 09:10 AM
Warlock/Swanmay is awesome. Damn specific text about druid/ranger casting! Of course, I always ignore that lame part when I DM. Swanmay is redeemed warlock done right, not that lame Enlightened Soul - whose only borderline good class feature is the aura of menace.

I love the flavor, but mechanically the class needs some work. Aside from the ridiculous druid/ranger restriction, the SLAs have a caster level equal to your Swanmay level i.e. 10 maximum. They'll thus be ridiculously easy to resist, dispel and counter. The Favored Enemy should really be up to the player too.

The full BAB is fantastic though; hello glaivelock!



Of course, the skill pre-reqs are hard for a straight-classed Warlock, though a 1-level Ranger or Druid dip could certainly help there.

Nah, dip Ruathar instead. You get all the needed skills as class skills, even more juicy tree-hugger flavor, and full invocation/EB progression.

In fact, if the Swanmay you help to join the class is also an Elf, you kill two birds (not swans!) with one stone :smallsmile:

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 09:51 AM
The Favored Enemy should really be up to the player too.
Is isn't I could swear it was.


The full BAB is fantastic though; hello glaivelock!
Hell yeah.


Nah, dip Ruathar instead. You get all the needed skills as class skills, even more juicy tree-hugger flavor, and full invocation/EB progression.
Ruathar delays entry somewhat, though. Warlock 4/Ranger 1 qualifies. You need to be a Warlock 6 before you take levels in Ruathar, though. So you could qualify only at Warlock 6/Ruathar 1... and if you have Int 18 to get 8 skill points at level 1 of Ruathar.


In fact, if the Swanmay you help to join the class is also an Elf, you kill two birds (not swans!) with one stone :smallsmile:
Indeed. Psyren is an oracle of wisdom.

Duke of URL
2010-12-14, 10:01 AM
Is isn't I could swear it was.

The text says that the Swanmay doesn't choose her favored enemy, but rather it is chosen based on the needs/enemies of the area that she protects.

Of course, from a practical standpoint, the player is the one creating the organization (in collusion with the DM, of course), so the player is very likely to be the one choosing the favored enemy in the end, generally with helpful (hopefully) guidance from the DM.

true_shinken
2010-12-14, 10:05 AM
The text says that the Swanmay doesn't choose her favored enemy, but rather it is chosen based on the needs/enemies of the area that she protects.
I guess I just always interpreted it from your already mentioned practical view point.

Psyren
2010-12-14, 10:55 AM
Ruathar delays entry somewhat, though. Warlock 4/Ranger 1 qualifies. You need to be a Warlock 6 before you take levels in Ruathar, though. So you could qualify only at Warlock 6/Ruathar 1... and if you have Int 18 to get 8 skill points at level 1 of Ruathar.


True - though given that Swanmay also loses a caster level, the ranger dip is more painful in the long run. The Ruathar capstone is a nice reason to take all three levels too, so 18 Int isn't required.


Indeed. Psyren is an oracle of wisdom.

I will not have an ego sig...
I will not have an ego sig...
*Rocks back and forth, continuing to chant*

VirOath
2010-12-14, 11:28 AM
@VirOath

I haven't read anything about Walk Unseen being trackless, though. Where is it mentioned?


I took a second look and it's not there. I was running off of memory for that comment as didn't flip back to the book. My mistake

Duke of URL
2010-12-14, 11:34 AM
I took a second look and it's not there. I was running off of memory for that comment as didn't flip back to the book. My mistake

Now, if you paired it up with Entropic Warding, on the other hand...

VirOath
2010-12-14, 11:38 AM
Ah, thank you! I knew it was tagged onto one of the leasts. Had that combo running on one of my own, really gives a boon to invis. Combine with Fell Flight, and two of the big common counters to invis no longer work (Scent and Tremor Sense respectively.)

Baveboi
2010-12-14, 12:15 PM
Ah, thank you! I knew it was tagged onto one of the leasts. Had that combo running on one of my own, really gives a boon to invis. Combine with Fell Flight, and two of the big common counters to invis no longer work (Scent and Tremor Sense respectively.)

You can still be seen with true sight & family. A ring of nondetection should deal with that, however.
Very interesting non-existencial combo. I'd have to cast Detect Self after 10 rounds only to remember I exist.

Duke of URL
2010-12-14, 12:33 PM
There's also a part of the Invocations' fluff that say you can select spells/powers in place of an Invocation of the same level. I normally frown at this, but some feats (like Wild Talent) should open the doors for you there. Not to mention the RP possibilities.

I don't know where that might be. In my own personal pet project, Invocation Magic (http://victoriouspress.com/forum/download/file.php?id=220), I have this to say on the subject of creating new invocations from spells:


When creating invocations to add to the existing classes and prestige classes or to custom-designed classes and prestige classes, a good place to start looking is the spell lists for the spellcasting classes or powers list for the psionic classes. These can give you general ideas of what types of effects are reasonable at certain levels.

Mixing and matching effects from multiple spells, or simply adding a twist or variation to an existing spell, is not only possible, it is encouraged. Just be sure to take into account any spell level increase that mixing multiple effects might have, and raise the invocation grade accordingly, or add drawbacks that justify keeping the invocation at a lower grade.

In general, because invocations can be used ad infinitum, avoid any invocation that can be abused by multiple repeated applications. An invocation based on cure light wounds may make sense from a flavor standpoint, but you’ve just given the entire party infinite and free downtime healing. This is what the spell knowledge invocations are for – to provide some additional flexibility without allowing for such “broken” invocations. When adding additional spell lists as new spell knowledge invocations, use the provided pattern for 6-level or 9-level spellcasting classes, but be more careful with 4-level spellcasting classes, as the 4th (and sometimes even 3rd) level spells are not intended to be accessed until relatively high levels.

Due to the infinite nature of invocations, invocations should generally be less powerful than the spells or powers that they are based upon. This may mean less damage output, smaller areas of effect (or reduction to single target), and/or decreased durations. The invoker instead has the ability to use them at will, and can generally extend an effect’s duration at the cost of using additional actions to do so.

Finally, look at the invoker classes in use in your campaign setting. Should you add the new invocation to one or more of their class invocations list, or is it a custom invocation you want just a single class or prestige class to have primary access to? Update the class invocation lists accordingly, taking care not to unbalance the invoker classes too much by providing some classes with many options while ignoring other classes.

Mechanically, invocations should typically require a standard action and a somatic component. Additional components may be added based on the “flavor” of the invocation (see, for example, the voice of …, word of …, phrase of …, and litany of … invocations in Invocations). Changing the invoking time from a standard action to another type of action should be done only after careful consideration of the balance issues involved.


I don't remember where but once I found something about a Prismatic Essence for Warlock's EB. It allowed you to roll the effects of a Prismatic Spray with the save for blinded and whatnot. I did a lot of random "turning to stone" with that one.

I think it was on Quintessencial Warlock or something like that. Was a third party for sure, but the idea is good.

While it's unlikely you got it from there, Invocation Magic does include a prismatic invocation weapon effect -- basically, each target of the invocation weapon is subject to a random effect as if hit by a prismatic ray.

Edit: @true_shinken -- apropos of nothing in particular, Invocation Magic's Warden base class looks to be a perfect fit for the Swanmay, if you include the call of the beast invocation from Complete Mage. Not designed with that in mind, but the whole fey/nature thing not so surprisingly works.

yldenfrei
2010-12-14, 03:10 PM
After laborious days of shaking my brain for inspiration, I have now managed to substantially fill up the Character Sheet for my first character

Halj Frei Eryth (http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetview.php?sheetid=260190)

A CHA Warlock with Eldritch Glaive as the first Invocation. Poised to advance levels in Cleric and Eldritch Disciple. And then to something else, depending on where his personal story takes him.

I have more or less concrete ideas on my invocation list. I have not yet taken a feat for 1st level though, so I'll need help with that (and suggestions for future feats too). ^_^

If you wish to read (and if for some reason the notes won't appear in the character sheet), here's the flavor origin text I prepared:
One could say that the birth of Halj Frei Eryth was planned from the very beginning. It was, after all, a most ambitious gift his father--the Divine Emissary Hakkon Eryth--would offer to his god Erythnul. His mother would be a distinguished grey elf heiress, abducted in the middle of her coronation. Taken to the unholy temple, her blood would be siphoned out, replaced by the blood freely given by Erythnul to his disciples. After the first ritual, the princess will be forced to mate with and bear the seed of the Divine Emissary, not in the secrecy of the temple, but back in the elven land from whence she came, with the existence of her unholy child proclaimed to all who can hear. Should she be executed by her kingdom, all well and good for the glory of Erythnul, for she was of great influence to her people, and her death would cause great panic and strife among the powers of her land. She was thus spared by her people and allowed to bear her child, only to be abducted for the second time--this time, it was in the middle of her city's massacre--and returned to Erythnul's temple, upon which she was flayed alive, piece by piece, until the child was delivered. And it was perfect, indeed, in beauty and elegance. Then, when the right time comes, the desecration of this most perfect visage, transformed into utter hideousness, will be a most perfect offering to Hakkon's terrible god.

Halj Frei was raised personally by his father, attended to by clerics for instruction. While Halj Frei learned easily of the ways to please and manipulate people, he seemed unresponsive to the teachings of their faith. Moreover, he did not show signs of inclination towards the ritual sacrifices he was instructed to take part in. On the 12th celebration of his birth, he was brought into the temple's arena for the annual Blood Howl. It was only ten days after their last war, and captured soldiers were plenty. By his father's command, Halj Frei was ushered into the center of the arena with no weapons or armor save for his scholar's outfit. Ten tortured prisoners were led in, and the crier announced the reward: whoever kills the child wins his freedom. The prisoners stood for a moment confused, looking at each other for confirmation. One of them, in a sudden burst of desperation, charged blindly, screaming toward Halj Frei. The arena erupted in a great clamor, but was silenced just as abruptly as the charging prisoner's scream stopped. The silenced prisoner slumped to the ground, his head suddenly rolling off his shoulders. Amidst the fountain of blood, spectators beheld a baleful manifestation of a glaive held by the child in his hands. The crowd roared in praise and pleasure, while the rest of the prisoners, robbed of common sense, charged one by one towards the child and were promptly slaughtered by the baleful weapon.

The Divine Emissary was most ecstatic: he had hoped for some fiendish blood to manifest in his son. Instead his child was granted infernal powers, not doubt by the terrible god himself clearly showing his favor to the gift his disciple was preparing for him. The emissary was moved with feverish imaginations, calculating new paths by which his son might ascend in power. In his delirious glee, the emissary did not notice his child walking away from the arena, wiping off the blood from his face and clothes.

The main arc of his journey is the shunning of Erythnul's doctrines, especially the wanton slaughter of people just for the sake of spilling blood. There may or may not be a Divine Conversion halfway. Also, his journey can be concluded two ways:

The first one is to kill his father and sever his ties to Erythnul.
The second one (and I really really really want to take this one :smallbiggrin:) is to save his father by rallying an army and killing Erythnul himself in an epic Deicide. This path could take several mini-paths as well.

He could delve into Binder and Hellfire Warlock territory (which will make him Chaotic Evil) and then enlist the aid of Evil gods (or, if I can manage a Neutral Evil shift, enlist Hextor who, appropriately enough, is Erythnul's proclaimed rival).
He could, if he had a Divine conversion, instead enlist the aid of Good and/or Neutral gods in defeating Erythnul.
Or he could gain godhood before facing Erythnul. So many possibilities for just one character. ^_^



There, my plan is laid bare. Shoot down any holes as you see fit! ^_^
ALSO: I haven't seen any Ex-Warlock entry. What happens when a warlock shifts away from Evil/Chaotic, aside from not being able to level up in Warlock?

Duke of URL
2010-12-14, 03:14 PM
ALSO: I haven't seen any Ex-Warlock entry. What happens when a warlock shifts away from Evil/Chaotic, aside from not being able to level up in Warlock?

Nothing. They get to keep everything.

Baveboi
2010-12-14, 05:31 PM
I don't know where that might be. In my own personal pet project, Invocation Magic (http://victoriouspress.com/forum/download/file.php?id=220), I have this to say on the subject of creating new invocations from spells:

[...]

While it's unlikely you got it from there, Invocation Magic does include a prismatic invocation weapon effect -- basically, each target of the invocation weapon is subject to a random effect as if hit by a prismatic ray.

It's possible, Duke. I find a lot of things while I bore myself on the (w)interwebs and I would think twice before discarding the possibility I came across something from your pet project. The prismatic essence would be an interesting coincidence otherwise.

Seems I also didn't find that part about Invocations and Spells on the WotC material. Bet it's somewhere on Monte Book and/or Sword and Sorcery party material. :smalltongue: If I come across it I will let you guys know...

Damn you wizard, for releasing an awesome Class full of new possibilities and then closing your doors for new 3.5 material!:smallmad:

MeeposFire
2010-12-14, 06:34 PM
Another interesting part for warlocks is to use the prc from dragonmarked for the house of healing, neurosomething surgeon. It allows you to use a spell like ability to cast spells, namely inflict spells. If you can find a level 9 inflict spell (heighten may count) you can qualify for epic spell casting.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-14, 07:08 PM
Another interesting part for warlocks is to use the prc from dragonmarked for the house of healing, neurosomething surgeon. It allows you to use a spell like ability to cast spells, namely inflict spells. If you can find a level 9 inflict spell (heighten may count) you can qualify for epic spell casting.

Nosomatic Chirurgeon. However, you have to be a halfling to pull this off. You also need either Least Dragonmark or Heir of Siberys. However, it does indeed get you into PrC's that have a prerequsite 'must be able to cast x level spells'

MeeposFire
2010-12-14, 08:03 PM
Oh yea I forgot it also got you into prestige classes. Did we ever find a level 9 inflict spell?

yldenfrei
2010-12-14, 08:49 PM
Guys, any permutation of PrC's to augment the Warlock's Invocation progression and/or BAB and/or overall usefulness is greatly appreciated. Just please don't forget to mention which book I can find them in. :smallbiggrin:

The Swanmay seems like a nice concept, albeit restricted only to human females. I'll probably roll one sometime. Talk about a cursed swan princess :smalltongue:

ALSO: Starting feats, everyone! Give your suggestions! ^_^

@Duke of URL
I've read through your Invocation Magic and its pretty solid in my understanding. The only thing that gave me some apprehensions is the CHA based invocation count increase. Sure it can't be augmented with equipment and so, but it's essentially a souped up version of the Extra Invocation feat for free. I've always thought of the 12 Invocation limit as an integral part of the warlock characterization, that his benefactors, no matter how pleased with him, would only favor an individual so much. Thus the warlock must be constantly mindful of the array of invocations he has at his disposal, retraining as he sees fit while he advances in power.

There's also this one description about warlocks I read, about how they're essentially tearing a small hole through the Arcane Weave, letting it pour arcane power on them whenever they desire. 12 tears in the weave per warlock is already something to worry about, but increasing it sounds a bit detrimental to all arcane spellcasters concerned. And by then, "dean-servicing harlot" would be the nicest nickname the warlocks will ever have. :smalleek:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-14, 09:39 PM
Okay, Warlocks are a bit hampered because they (normally) don't cast x level spells (barring that trick I mentioned previously). So there's only a few prC's which really help them out.

Hellfire Warlock with a one-level dip in Binder for Naberious is a classic, then using a really cheesy trick from a class by the name of Legacy Champion to dish out a *LOT* of dice per shot. However, it requires Evil.

With a three-level splash into Cleric, you can pick up Eldritch Disciple, which advances invocations 10/10 (and divine casting 9/10) with some useful toys, like a healing blast for ranged in-combat healing.

With a dip into an arcane class for 2nd level Arcane spells, you can go into Eldritch Theurge, which has some fun toys, and 10/10 for progression. Greatreach Blast is a great way to use those touch range spells from quite a ways off.

Enlightened Spirit is almost universally regarded as a TRAP. About the only thing it's good for is unlimited out of combat healing through a cheesy trick

Acolyte of the Skin is a TRAP... because it's only 1/2 spellcasting progression. Even for a Warlock... totally not worth it.

Blood Magus really doesn't have anything which will benefit you, and comes with steep feat tax

While you can, technically, qualify for Arcane Fist, you can't use any of the relevant class abilities, as you don't cast spells.

Green Star Adept. Much better than Acolyte of the Skin, but still trap-ish due to 1/2 spellcasting progression. However, at least you get to turn into a construct over time, which is pretty cool.

Mindbender... now this is really awesome for a one-level dip, although it eats up a Lesser Invocation known on Charm Person (which is still a pretty handy toy). The reason this is good is for the 100' Telepathy, which gives you access to the feat Mindsight from Lords of Madness, which is basically a radar for any non-mindless critters. This means never getting surprised.

Chameleon is also a very nice two-level dip for Warlocks, due to the floating feat. This means you can be crafting magic items one day (once you hit Warlock12), picking up an extra invocation the next, and changing which invocation you wanted to get with it on the following day. It gives you a LOT of flexability which is otherwise not afforded to Warlocks.

Wild mage is technically possible, although why anyone would want to increase the randomness of combat is beyond me.

As for feats, there's several you may wish to consider:

Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot. Do you fire into melee with ranged touch attacks (i.e. your Eldritch Blast)? If so, you either need these feats, or an item which duplicates them.

Improved initiative. Going first is made of win. Going last is made of fail.

Arcane Mastery (Complete Arcane) is not a bad feat. Take 10 on Caster Level checks to overcome SR and a few other things.

Battle Caster (CArc) is also not bad if you want to be sporting Mithral Full Plate

Maximize/Empower/Quicken Spell-Like Ability. You can't start out with them, but they are lots of fun to start picking up around level 6.

Ranged Recall is decent, if you already have Point-Blank Shot for Precise Shot, although it has additional feat tax of Weapon Focus (ranged spell)

MeeposFire
2010-12-14, 10:07 PM
Well wildmage works very well with practiced spell casting but that combo may not work with warlocks.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-14, 10:29 PM
Well wildmage works very well with practiced spell casting but that combo may not work with warlocks.

Re-read that again...

You get the -3 to CL, but you only get to add 1d6 when casting a spell. Warlocks don't cast spells. You get all the bad, with none of the good.

Random Deflector can really suck if you deflected the SoD effect onto the healbot, who is the only one who can pick people up from that...

Student of Chaos is pointless, unless you really like running the risk of blowing up the party, even if you are marginally less likely to do so than anyone else

Chaotic Mind is okay... I guess... but Mind Blank is better

You can't use Reckless Dewomer because you don't cast spells

Wildstrike is a less effective version of Bestow Curse, although it doesn't allow a save, you can leave it easily.

So yes, it sucks.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-14, 10:47 PM
According to this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20061207a&page=3) Infernal Warlock doesn't needs evil alignment, some skill ranks and knowing brimstone/hell rim blast

yldenfrei
2010-12-14, 11:48 PM
@Dusk Eclipse: Wow. Thanks much for catching that update! My character can now choose to delve into Hellfire territory without shifting to Evil! :smallbiggrin:

ALSO: Is Arcane Mastery selected, or automatic?

Metamagic SLAs are invocation specifics, right? Meaning I have to buy one QSLA for Walk Unseen and then another QSLA for Fell Flight.

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-15, 12:06 AM
@Dusk Eclipse: Wow. Thanks much for catching that update! My character can now choose to delve into Hellfire territory without shifting to Evil! :smallbiggrin:

It is not an update, is the preview of the book (FCII) I think Shneekey got confused, and to he honest it is a pretty easy mistake to do, hell-fire and goodness aren't concepts that I would normally associate.
ALSO: Is Arcane Mastery selected, or automatic?
By my reading you can select when to activate it.

Metamagic SLAs are invocation specifics, right? Meaning I have to buy one QSLA for Walk Unseen and then another QSLA for Fell Flight.
Sadly yes; but on the upside if you select any metaSLA for eldritch blast you can affect it with shapes and essences as long as the effective spell level is still affected by the MetaSLA


Answers in bold.

MeeposFire
2010-12-15, 12:08 AM
Re-read that again...

You get the -3 to CL, but you only get to add 1d6 when casting a spell. Warlocks don't cast spells. You get all the bad, with none of the good.

Random Deflector can really suck if you deflected the SoD effect onto the healbot, who is the only one who can pick people up from that...

Student of Chaos is pointless, unless you really like running the risk of blowing up the party, even if you are marginally less likely to do so than anyone else

Chaotic Mind is okay... I guess... but Mind Blank is better

You can't use Reckless Dewomer because you don't cast spells

Wildstrike is a less effective version of Bestow Curse, although it doesn't allow a save, you can leave it easily.

So yes, it sucks.

Ya I missed the very specific spells part. I do not know why they did not update warlock to base things off of caster level and that the result of caster level was based off of the warlocks level progression, further allowing you to use invocations for spells in prc abilities.

VirOath
2010-12-15, 02:01 AM
Point Blank Shot + Precise Shot. Do you fire into melee with ranged touch attacks (i.e. your Eldritch Blast)? If so, you either need these feats, or an item which duplicates them.

This, is a trap generally. Ranged Touch Attacks run off of Touch AC, which is in a sink hole nine times out of ten. Shooting into melee is only a -4, and 3.5 took out the chance of hitting a friend in that -4 gap.

Almost nothing natural about monsters advances touch AC. They just get Dex + Deflection, no Nat Armor, No Armor, No Shield, No Enhancement. That -4 penalty isn't really a big deal and the feats can be better spent.

And with Glaive, it's not even needed, as Glaive is a Melee Touch with Reach.

yldenfrei
2010-12-15, 05:09 AM
Question: Does Eldritch Glaive function as a real glaive (reach weapon), or can it also be used to attack adjacent enemies? Also, how exactly does Eldritch Glaive handle the Attack of Opportunity it causes?

EDIT: Sorry, reread the entry on Eldritch Glaive. It apparently stays with me until my next round and will be used (in melee touch attack form) to execute AoOs it triggers. For a full-round action, that doesn't seem so bad after all. ^_^

Duke of URL
2010-12-15, 07:19 AM
Glaive is indeed a reach weapon, not reach + adjacent. But that's what 5-foot steps are for, and remember that an opponent coming toward you generates an AoO when he leaves your threatened area.


@Duke of URL
I've read through your Invocation Magic and its pretty solid in my understanding. The only thing that gave me some apprehensions is the CHA based invocation count increase. Sure it can't be augmented with equipment and so, but it's essentially a souped up version of the Extra Invocation feat for free. I've always thought of the 12 Invocation limit as an integral part of the warlock characterization, that his benefactors, no matter how pleased with him, would only favor an individual so much. Thus the warlock must be constantly mindful of the array of invocations he has at his disposal, retraining as he sees fit while he advances in power.

There's also this one description about warlocks I read, about how they're essentially tearing a small hole through the Arcane Weave, letting it pour arcane power on them whenever they desire. 12 tears in the weave per warlock is already something to worry about, but increasing it sounds a bit detrimental to all arcane spellcasters concerned. And by then, "dean-servicing harlot" would be the nicest nickname the warlocks will ever have. :smalleek:

You'll note that Invocation Magic doesn't subscribe to that particular fluff. Fact is, 3.5 Warlocks are considered "tier 5" (on a 6-tier scale) because they are so limited by their invocation selections. One way around this is to give them more invocations. With a high Charisma granting extra invocations, an LA+0 humanoid PC might be able to able to scape 5 extra invocations (2 minor, 1 of each of the other grades) by level 20 this way, and that's with a full-on effort to boost Charisma.

The other thing to realize is that Invocation Magic is balanced around Boundless Horizons, which has generally higher power in most classes. If adapting Invocation Magic to a regular 3.5 or Pathfinder game, that may be one of the rules you could consider changing.

yldenfrei
2010-12-15, 07:41 AM
Ooohh, kinda like Roy and the half-ogre? :smallbiggrin:

Speaking of the 5-foot step, is there anything for a warlock to clear the "difficult terrain or darkness" so I can side-step anytime?

How about Fel Flight? Can I do 5-foot steps in flight? Or is it no longer needed when air-borne?

When I'm more versed with DnD I'm gonna go make myself a custom Invocation class with your handbook. Woe to whoever decides to fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Warlock with 30+ CHA, though. :smalleek:

Prime32
2010-12-15, 09:12 AM
Ooohh, kinda like Roy and the half-ogre? :smallbiggrin:The half-ogre was deliberately misreading the rules, but that kind of build can still be effective.

The main feats are Combat Reflexes (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#combatReflexes) and Hold the Line (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#holdTheLine). Add Improved Trip (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/feats.htm#improvedTrip) or Stand Still (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#standStill).

It goes:
1. Opponent exits one of the squares threatened by your reach weapon, or charges into one.
2. Use attack of opportunity to trip opponent, negating his attack. Improved Trip triggers and you get to attack again.
3. When your turn starts, move out of the opponent's range.

yldenfrei
2010-12-15, 09:42 AM
@Prime32:
Hmmm, very interesting. I'll give that a try when I make a High BAB polearm warlock. ^_^

Question: If tripping can be done in AoO, can you trip with the Eldritch Glaive?

Also, as Stand Still AoO requires a damage roll, can you use your Eldritch Glaive's damage roll?

Also (this is something I always forget to ask), say you're wielding a one-hand weapon and a small shield (or buckler), can you cast Eldritch Glaive (or cast in general, since I read somewhere you need a free hand to cast)? If you do manage to cast Eldritch Glaive, what happens to the weapon or shield?

Duke of URL
2010-12-15, 10:54 AM
When I'm more versed with DnD I'm gonna go make myself a custom Invocation class with your handbook. Woe to whoever decides to fight a Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Warlock with 30+ CHA, though. :smalleek:

I doubt a great wyrm gold dragon is going to have a lot of class levels. You know, with the 42+ hit dice and no actual level adjustment and all. It's already CR 27, so you're well into epic as it is.

Even with a single class level, it still only gets 2 extra minor invocations.


Question: If tripping can be done in AoO, can you trip with the Eldritch Glaive?

Also, as Stand Still AoO requires a damage roll, can you use your Eldritch Glaive's damage roll?

I think so, to the first, check with your DM. Yes to the second.


Also (this is something I always forget to ask), say you're wielding a one-hand weapon and a small shield (or buckler), can you cast Eldritch Glaive (or cast in general, since I read somewhere you need a free hand to cast)? If you do manage to cast Eldritch Glaive, what happens to the weapon or shield?

Nothing. The description in Dragon Magic makes no mention at all of anything happening to them. It only says you gain the attack from eldritch glaive "as if" you were using a reach weapon, although you can't combine that with regular weapon damage. In theory, you should be able to wield a non-reach weapon and be able to threaten reach + adjacent with the different weapons.

Tael
2010-12-15, 11:04 AM
A note on your stats: Warlocks are fairly stat-independent, and especially for someone like you who beats people up in melee, you Charisma should be much lower, and your Dex and Con should be much higher. I believe you can take weapon finesse to use your Dex for your glaive (as it is a weightless touch attack) letting you completely dump your Str as well.

true_shinken
2010-12-15, 02:32 PM
Question: Does Eldritch Glaive function as a real glaive (reach weapon), or can it also be used to attack adjacent enemies? Also, how exactly does Eldritch Glaive handle the Attack of Opportunity it causes?

EDIT: Sorry, reread the entry on Eldritch Glaive. It apparently stays with me until my next round and will be used (in melee touch attack form) to execute AoOs it triggers. For a full-round action, that doesn't seem so bad after all. ^_^

Just not that eldritch glaive is not a weapon. Keep that in mind. Lots of stuff apply only to weapons.

VirOath
2010-12-15, 03:21 PM
One more case and point. There is no need to Quicken Fell Flight, it's a 24 hour buff that is turned on or off with a standard action. Just turn it on at the start of every morning and you are good.

Quickened Walk Unseen is nice though. Even though it is a 24 hour buff like Fell Flight it has a condition that turns it off, pretty much whenever you do a hostile action. Not ideal, but it works.

Quickened Flee The Scene though, that's pure goodness.

yldenfrei
2010-12-15, 11:27 PM
Hmm, I seem to be going two ways with my build here.

For clarify, I have two warlock concepts:

1. My first character, the Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple (plus something else, depending)

2. The Warlock/Fighter (plus something else, again), with preference for polearm (Monkey Grip) and shield.

What are the suggested ability score priorities for each build?

Also, is it still viable for the Eldritch Disciple build to still invest in melee? I just want something to keep my Warlock standing when the enemy decides to go toe-to-toe with me.

MeeposFire
2010-12-15, 11:37 PM
I would think warlock would not work well with fighter since the polearm is not usable with eldritch blast outside of eldritch strike which is a bad invocation.

Using eldritch glaive would probably be best with you disciple.

true_shinken
2010-12-16, 10:24 AM
Also, is it still viable for the Eldritch Disciple build to still invest in melee? I just want something to keep my Warlock standing when the enemy decides to go toe-to-toe with me.
Definitely. Eldritch Disciple is one of the best choices for a glaivelock build.

Tael
2010-12-16, 10:36 AM
Hmm, I seem to be going two ways with my build here.

For clarify, I have two warlock concepts:

1. My first character, the Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple (plus something else, depending)

2. The Warlock/Fighter (plus something else, again), with preference for polearm (Monkey Grip) and shield.

What are the suggested ability score priorities for each build?

Also, is it still viable for the Eldritch Disciple build to still invest in melee? I just want something to keep my Warlock standing when the enemy decides to go toe-to-toe with me.

Tier System for Classes (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=5293.0). A Cleric can most definitely stand in melee. In fact, he'll do it far better than the fighter.

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-16, 02:33 PM
Hmm, I seem to be going two ways with my build here.

For clarify, I have two warlock concepts:

1. My first character, the Warlock/Cleric/Eldritch Disciple (plus something else, depending) Eldritch Disciple is made of Win. You can now cast Divine Power, and you have the turn attempts to even Persist it with DMM Persist. Now you have the same BAB as the Fighter, using touch attacks for what is likely as much ore more damage per hit, and you've still got your cleric spells for backup.

It is made of win and awesomesauce, although doesn't have quite the damage potential of HFW/Legacy Champion. It compensates by having a FAR greater pool of abilities to use.


2. The Warlock/Fighter (plus something else, again), with preference for polearm (Monkey Grip) and shield. Polearms are two handed weapons, shield takes up a hand. Monkey grip lets you use a weapon one size category larger, but it does not let you use a two-handed weapon in one hand.

Fighter is made of fail for this, because a Warlock can always UMD a Wand of Divine Power to have the only thing that Fighter brings to the table.


What are the suggested ability score priorities for each build?

Also, is it still viable for the Eldritch Disciple build to still invest in melee? I just want something to keep my Warlock standing when the enemy decides to go toe-to-toe with me.

ED is still a VERY rocking boxer in melee. With Divine Power and Righteous Might, you're a better tank than the tank. With Battle Caster feat, you are sporting Mithral Full Plate. Then we blow a single feat on Eldritch Glaive, and suddenly you're significantly out-performing the tank in every respect. With Fell Flight, you can even be out of reach most of the time. And Flee The Scene can be used to teleport INTO trouble as easily as out of it, and remember, you're still leaving behind a figment and invisible when you arrive. That means you get flat-footed touch-attacks on everyone as you 'decloak', meaning pathetically easy attack rolls.

For an ED who is expecting to get into melee a lot, you want to priortize Wis as your first and only stat, with an afterthought into Con and Dex.

yldenfrei
2010-12-16, 09:58 PM
Ok. Now there's my conundrum with ED: Do I go with lvl 9 Divine spells or Dark Invocations? I really really need to get at the very least Path of Shadow (for RP reasons. It's the most pivotal invocation for his personal quest.)

RE: ED Ability scores - So... no regards to CHA then? I kinda wanted my character to be at least arresting in appearance (and RPwise, I feel a noticeably childlike appearance would at least require +2 CHA modifier).

Divine Might. Do they affect Eldritch Glaive? (I'm guessing not due to "weapon" description, which makes my CHA preference useless) Also, Holy Warrior feat, yes? No?

These triple buff (DM, HW, Hideous Blow) was my original concept for the Halberd-shield wielding ED (as per my NWN2 experience). Apparently, Monkey Grip doesn't allow 2H weapons to be wielded as 1H in PnP. :smallfrown:

I plan to prioritize (In descending order):
WIS*, CHA*, INT (for the skill points, please?), DEX, CON, STR (to be remedied by cleric buffs).
*interchangeable

Not optimized, true. But it can do passably, right? Right? :smalleek:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-16, 10:07 PM
Ok. Now there's my conundrum with ED: Do I go with lvl 9 Divine spells or Dark Invocations? I really really need to get at the very least Path of Shadow (for RP reasons. It's the most pivotal invocation for his personal quest.)

RE: ED Ability scores - So... no regards to CHA then? I kinda wanted my character to be at least arresting in appearance (and RPwise, I feel a noticeably childlike appearance would at least require +2 CHA modifier).

Divine Might. Do they affect Eldritch Glaive? (I'm guessing not due to "weapon" description, which makes my CHA preference useless) Also, Holy Warrior feat, yes? No?

These triple buff (DM, HW, Hideous Blow) was my original concept for the Halberd-shield wielding ED (as per my NWN2 experience). Apparently, Monkey Grip doesn't allow 2H weapons to be wielded as 1H in PnP. :smallfrown:

I plan to prioritize (In descending order):
WIS*, CHA*, INT (for the skill points, please?), DEX, CON, STR (to be remedied by cleric buffs).
*interchangeable

Not optimized, true. But it can do passably, right? Right? :smalleek:

You don't really need skill points, so Int can be safely dumped. Str is also a dump stat since you are using a SLA for your damage output. Dex = AC, so if you don't want to get hit as much, it's at least relevant. Likewise, Con is relevant because it means more hit points which means less dying.

Wis is, of course, THE stat. Charisma is something that can be done, if you want, but since you aren't using many invocations that require saves, it can be safely dumped if you so choose. However, if you want a high Charisma, by all means go for it, but it's not like a vital stat or anything.

Divine Power gives you a full BAB. It mentions nothing about weapons. It also gives more hit points, which is also a good thing.

Remind me again what Holy Warrior feat does?

yldenfrei
2010-12-16, 10:35 PM
Divine Might (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-661-divine-might.html) uses up 1 rebuke undead to add your CHA modifier to weapon damage.

Holy Warrior (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1405-holy-warrior.html) adds the highest level of your prepared (and not yet used) War Domain spell as weapon damage bonus (ex. a prepared and unused Divine Power adds +4 damage bonus to weapon).

Also, Divine Shield (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-666-divine-shield.html)! Adds CHA modifier to shield AC for rounds half my character level.

Trying to justify my high CHA haha!:smallbiggrin:

Tael
2010-12-16, 10:46 PM
Not optimized, true. But it can do passably, right? Right? :smalleek:

Maybe not optimized in my group, but you would be really surprised at how increadibly weak some of the builds people play. Many groups never even see forums, and think that monks are incredibly overpowered because of how many class features they get, and Sword and Board fighter are optimal.
Basically, optimization level, just like everything else in D&D, is completely based on group.

yldenfrei
2010-12-17, 10:41 AM
OK so, my feat plan goes something like:

Wk1 - Improved Initiative
Wk1/Cl2 - Combat Reflex (?)
Wk1/Cl3/ED2 - Quicken Spell
Wk1Cl3/ED5 - DMM (Quicken)
Wk1/Cl3/ED8 - Extra Invocation
Wk2/Cl3/ED10 - Empower/Maximize SLA (Eldritch Blast)
Wk5/Cl3/ED10 - Quicken SLA (Flee the Scene)

Thoughts? Suggestions?

Question: Godless Clerics. What are their limitations? Can they cast spontaneous spells, can they turn/rebuke undead? Can they advance to Eldritch Disciple? (I'm guessing a "no" on that last question)

Also, Flee the Scene says Dimension Door as the spell (just with shorter reach). Does that mean I can take someone along?

Also, Empowered/Maximized Eldritch Blast also means Empowered/Maximized Eldritch Glaive (at Caster Level 6), right?

EDIT: Also, here's my ED Gift of the Divine Patron Selection (w/c requires me to worship a CG deity):
Healing Blast, Wild Frenzy, Protective Aura, Damage Reduction

Lastly, OMG! Eldritch Knight grants Timeless Body at Level 10. No more ageing!:smallbiggrin:

Psyren
2010-12-17, 11:24 AM
Question: Godless Clerics. What are their limitations? Can they cast spontaneous spells, can they turn/rebuke undead? Can they advance to Eldritch Disciple? (I'm guessing a "no" on that last question)


Spontaneous cure/inflict - yes
Turn/Rebuke - yes
Eldritch Disciple - no


Also, Flee the Scene says Dimension Door as the spell (just with shorter reach). Does that mean I can take someone along?

Yes, but keep in mind it will still only create an image of you, which may tip off your attacker.


Also, Empowered/Maximized Eldritch Blast also means Empowered/Maximized Eldritch Glaive (at Caster Level 6), right?

You need to be level 8 to empower or maximize Eldritch Glaive, as it is a 2nd-level shape.


Lastly, OMG! Eldritch Knight grants Timeless Body at Level 10. No more ageing!:smallbiggrin:

Keep in mind you aren't immortal, you just stop getting decrepit. :smalltongue:

ShneekeyTheLost
2010-12-17, 06:53 PM
Divine Might (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-661-divine-might.html) uses up 1 rebuke undead to add your CHA modifier to weapon damage.

Holy Warrior (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-1405-holy-warrior.html) adds the highest level of your prepared (and not yet used) War Domain spell as weapon damage bonus (ex. a prepared and unused Divine Power adds +4 damage bonus to weapon).

Also, Divine Shield (http://dnd.savannahsoft.eu/feat-666-divine-shield.html)! Adds CHA modifier to shield AC for rounds half my character level.

Trying to justify my high CHA haha!:smallbiggrin:

Sorry, but the first two don't work with Glaive. Remember, Eldritch Glaive is not a weapon.

And I'm sure you can do better for an action in combat than giving yourself a few extra points of AC

true_shinken
2010-12-17, 10:08 PM
Sorry, but the first two don't work with Glaive. Remember, Eldritch Glaive is not a weapon.
Thanks, Shneeky. Glad to see I don't have to be the one saying this all the time. :smallsmile: