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View Full Version : What would it take to make Weapons of Legacy worth it?

2010-12-17, 05:56 PM
Okay you possibly hear of Weapons of Legacy and how bad they are.
If you haven't they are a weapons that require a feat+gp or gp+exp costs, to get that increase in power as you level up.
Some of these powers vary in power level from amazing, good, and bad. If hte legacy goes all they way to greater it has 6 least slots, 6 lesser slots, and 4 greater slots. Some abilities take up to 2 or 3 slots.

And these are the penalties you take from having a Weapon of Legacy. I'm only going to put the total result instead of the table.

For size

4-1: -2 att, -3 saves, -16 HP, 40,500gp.
4-2: -3 att, -4 save, -10 HP, 40,000gp.
4-3: -3 skills, -20 HP, 38,000gp.
4-4: -2 att, -3 skills, 8 HP, -16 sp, 40,000gp.
4-5: -3 skills, -2 saves, -4 HP, -18 sp, 40,500gp.
4-6: -2 skills, -1 saves, -2CL, -1 spell slot (1~8), 43,000gp
4-7: -1 att, -12 HP, -1 spell slot (1~8), 39,000gp
4-8: -3 skills, -3 cl, -14 sp, -1 spell slot (1~5), 41,000gp
4-9: -2 ml, -16 pp, 40,000gp
4-10: -1 att, -2 ml, -14 HP, -12 pp, 39,000gp

Okay table 4-1, the cost to negate the penalty by level twenty-+2 Con(Minimum 4,000gp, +3 Resistance 9,000gp, +2 Weapon 8,000). This is to break even with an character with no +Con item/+Saves/+X weapon.
Tables like 4-4/4-5 the only take to reclaim the lost skill points it from the Open Minded feat, which would need to be taken 3 to 4 times.
While Tables like 4-7 need only +1 attack(2,000g), +2 Con(4,000gp) and the Extra slot feat to be even.

So to repeat the question in the title what needs to be done to make Weapons of Legacy appealing?

JKTrickster
2010-12-17, 06:38 PM
Everyone will say to take off the penalties. After all, a Legacy Weapon is at BEST equal to a normal weapon you would get at that level anyway - why bother with penalties then?

Godskook
2010-12-17, 06:41 PM
#1 thing is to make the penalties as permanent as the weapon.

2010-12-17, 06:57 PM
#1 thing is to make the penalties as permanent as the weapon.

Do you mean make the penalties last forever or only as you have the item?

With the first one, the penalties are bad enough with only having to pay 1,000gp, a day, and the bonus legacy feats previously gained to get back.

The other way, you can already do that, with the 1,000gp cost. The exp and gp spent getting the item is lost forever.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-17, 07:15 PM
Okay you possibly hear of Weapons of Legacy and how bad they are.
If you haven't they are a weapons that require a feat+gp or gp+exp costs, to get that increase in power as you level up.

I thought it was feat or pay for the ritual.

Why you adding cost to feat?

Eldariel
2010-12-17, 07:45 PM
The rituals buy the feats. That's not a problem. Also, WoL aren't bad; on the contrary, they are mechanically sound options on high levels granting non-casters cheap access to many important spells like Moment of Prescience, Foresight, Mind Blank, Heal and company without dressing themselves up as christmas trees. Casters, on the other hand, get relatively cheap access to many forms of metamagic and things to that effect.

No, the crunch isn't the problem; as long as Legacies are founded individually and crafted carefully, they can become very potent. However, they make no sense, really. And it's a very restricted set, which are good enough for the points. That and the mechanic of "Get static -X to a bunch of stuff to replicate some spells/get some abilities" is just wholly uninspiring. Power-wise, you can make them work if you know what you're doing (though if you don't, god help you; and making a Weapon of Legacy the primary weapon you actually wield in combat is about the biggest mistake you can make - unfortunately they function the best as support items, since the weapon enhancement bonuses take tons of valuable points that could instead be used on useful, unique stuff).

Best weapons of Legacy are +1 base weapons that have been Legacy'd and get a ton of useful abilities while acting as a secondary tool (a backup knife, a gauntlet, the staff-half of an Elvencraft Bow things of that sort). And that's just wrong fluff-wise.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-17, 07:51 PM
Remove penalties? I mean you ready took feat or paid for it.
Are they neccesary?

Eldariel
2010-12-17, 07:56 PM
Remove penalties? I mean you ready took feat or paid for it.
Are they neccesary?

I think they are an attempt to make them feel unique. Can't say it feels like the best way, though. Really, the whole system just needs a revamp if you want to make them engaging and gain the feel it seems the devs were going for.

Godskook
2010-12-17, 08:03 PM
Do you mean make the penalties last forever or only as you have the item?

With the first one, the penalties are bad enough with only having to pay 1,000gp, a day, and the bonus legacy feats previously gained to get back.

The other way, you can already do that, with the 1,000gp cost. The exp and gp spent getting the item is lost forever.

The second, and no, you take the penalties permanently, while the Legacy item isn't.

2010-12-17, 08:15 PM
You can get rid of the penalties(and lose any benefits of the item) by Renouncing the Legacy, page 9 of WoL.
And weapons of legacy are very hard to destroy. They always get saving throws against effects that might damage them(even if they are unattended), they have a +20 save on all saves, have 10 additional hardness.
If they are destroyed in the a normal manner a part always remains(even against effects like disintegrate) and is able to be repaired(having to do a least/lesser/greater ritual again). The only way to permanently get destroy it is to destroy it then perform the least legacy ritual with intent to destroy it.

With that I said I had an idea of an intelligent WoL with Unceasing Servant carrying itself around.

Godskook
2010-12-17, 08:35 PM
You can get rid of the penalties(and lose any benefits of the item) by Renouncing the Legacy, page 9 of WoL.
And weapons of legacy are very hard to destroy. They always get saving throws against effects that might damage them(even if they are unattended), they have a +20 save on all saves, have 10 additional hardness.
If they are destroyed in the a normal manner a part always remains(even against effects like disintegrate) and is able to be repaired(having to do a least/lesser/greater ritual again). The only way to permanently get destroy it is to destroy it then perform the least legacy ritual with intent to destroy it.

Which isn't so hot in cases where you've only temporarily lost the WoL, and want it back.

2010-12-17, 10:25 PM
Which isn't so hot in cases where you've only temporarily lost the WoL, and want it back.

If you are worried about that, then there is the Call of Hand ability (Menu A, pg145). A move action and it comes to your hand from anywhere on the same plane.

I'm in agreement that the penalties should completely be removed, but add a 50% to the current gp cost, using table 4-1 for the cost.

woodenbandman
2010-12-17, 10:30 PM
Make them a class feature of anyone with a full BAB, for free.

Zeofar
2010-12-17, 11:12 PM
I don't feel like commenting on this at the very moment, but this has to be said: You do not spend a feat to use weapons of legacy. They are bonus feats which you gain after performing the ritual. There is no other way to gain the abilities of legacy weapons except performing the ritual, and the only thing you pay for them are the hp/skill/save penalties and the gp and xp cost. (Actually, on second thought, if you lost the feat, you could take it again and spend a feat to use a legacy weapon. That would be weird, though, and I'm not sure if it is actually possible for that to happen.).

true_shinken
2010-12-18, 06:51 AM
I don't feel like commenting on this at the very moment, but this has to be said: You do not spend a feat to use weapons of legacy.
I was just about to say this. This whole feat deal on legacy weapons looks like it was only created so I could make the True Dilettante (504 feats on 20 levels).

Coidzor
2010-12-18, 08:49 AM
you take the penalties permanently, while the Legacy item isn't.

How is that an improvement on the situation? :smallconfused:

Serenity
2010-12-18, 10:27 AM
He's saying that's the current state of the rules, and that it should be altered so that the penalties go away whenever you are not in possession of the weapon.

I say, it seems relatively well-balanced if the penalties are abandoned and nothing else changes. A weapon which simply 'levels up' alongside you without further investment--but perhaps an associated code of conduct, or awakening personality, or some such, depending on the weapon--might be even better.

pilvento
2010-12-18, 10:42 AM
just ignore the penalties, and btw a weapon that can give +6stat modifier is MUCHbetter than a normal weapon

Partysan
2010-12-18, 11:05 AM
Still doesn't make sense. A weapon that gives me -3 BAB, even if it's a +5 weapon, means I get worse at fighting by using it AND even if I use the sword I'll be worse at fighting than someone with a standard magic weapon.
Sorry, but that's just WRONG.

Godskook
2010-12-18, 11:21 AM
How is that an improvement on the situation? :smallconfused:

You misunderstand. I was stating that that *is* the current situation, and I think it needs to be changed to at *least* only taking the penalties when wielding the weapon.

true_shinken
2010-12-18, 12:22 PM
just ignore the penalties, and btw a weapon that can give +6stat modifier is MUCHbetter than a normal weapon
That's what I do.

Starbuck_II
2010-12-18, 12:40 PM
just ignore the penalties, and btw a weapon that can give +6stat modifier is MUCHbetter than a normal weapon

Not really, just add Wonderous item stuff to a sword. As long as price is fair: you can do it.

The only question is if you count it as unsloted. Or not:

I think it counts as sword slot, but not sure.

Akal Saris
2010-12-18, 03:20 PM
If you can make your own legacy weapons then they are already worth it as-is, especially if your campaign has a lot of gold rewards. Otherwise, some of them are still worthwhile - the weapons from ToB are all good (especially tiger claw and shadow hand's weapons), as are a few others like the soulknife-themed legacy weapon.

I like the 'drawbacks' system, because otherwise you have legacy items that are like item familiars. Brokenly powerful (what else gives you bonus experience?), until you lose it, and then you cry. And that's a really lame choice to give to any DM.

Zeofar
2010-12-18, 05:32 PM
Honestly, I'd remove gold expenditure for rituals in favor of treasure decreases, possibly starting with the initial item being mysteriously double its normal value (or whatever works) in terms of the loot the encounter gave (but not with regard to the market price, of course, unless you intend to use this to tip off the players that there seems to be something about the item that the merchant isn't telling you). The flavor on that just works better in my mind, too. Then, either tone down the penalties (Either half all of them or remove some of them altogether) or tone up the abilities. A single fireball every day at level 15? How about a maximized or sculpted one instead. Plain old Disintegrate once a day at level 19? Nah, make it a cone, or delivered at-will with a successful attack, or usable multiple times a day, or something that at least is less bland, if not more powerful. Lower the DC if you have to, but make it offer an ability that is interesting and isn't obtainable in a far easier manner.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-12-18, 07:59 PM
The solution is to do what the rules already allow: customizable WoLs. They remind me of bloodlines, honestly.

If the player can optimize decently, WoLs can be flavorful and slightly more powerful than w/o