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WarKitty
2010-12-18, 01:53 PM
I'm playing a druid with enemies that have apparently wised up and started targetting me at range. I am planning to buy a monk's belt as soon as I can afford it. Currently working with wild full plate. I do not have a lot of hit points, so not getting hit is important. How do I avoid getting hit?

All 3.5 sources except SpC allowed. We're currently at level 6. I am taking Craft Wondrous Item at level 7, if that's relevant.

gallagher
2010-12-18, 01:58 PM
I'm playing a druid with enemies that have apparently wised up and started targetting me at range. I am planning to buy a monk's belt as soon as I can afford it. Currently working with wild full plate. I do not have a lot of hit points, so not getting hit is important. How do I avoid getting hit?

All 3.5 sources except SpC allowed. We're currently at level 6. I am taking Craft Wondrous Item at level 7, if that's relevant.

you are a druid? summon scary looking things that are closer to them than you. wildshape into something that flies, go into the trees and hide while you have your summoned creature do the dirty work.

other than that, its a DC 15 ride check to get +4 AC from cover. hope you have an animal companion that you can ride

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 02:19 PM
you are a druid? summon scary looking things that are closer to them than you. wildshape into something that flies, go into the trees and hide while you have your summoned creature do the dirty work.

other than that, its a DC 15 ride check to get +4 AC from cover. hope you have an animal companion that you can ride

That would be why I said they were targetting me at range. Melee is fine, but summons and flying don't do anything against the arrows and rays I'm getting shot with.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 02:23 PM
That would be why I said they were targetting me at range. Melee is fine, but summons and flying don't do anything against the arrows and rays I'm getting shot with.

Summon something to draw their fire, preferably something with a ranged natural attack or a good movement speed. Wildshape into something reeeeeealy small. Fall prone. Have a big animal companion, be prone behind that. There, you're no longer being targeted by ranged attacks, because they can't hit you. Then, spells.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 02:28 PM
Summon something to draw their fire, preferably something with a ranged natural attack or a good movement speed. Wildshape into something reeeeeealy small. Fall prone. Have a big animal companion, be prone behind that. There, you're no longer being targeted by ranged attacks, because they can't hit you. Then, spells.

I've already maxed out the AC I can get from wildshape. They're ignoring any attempt to draw fire - I have 2 barbarians and a fighter to hide behind already, I don't need more meatshields. I just need some armor help here.

SurlySeraph
2010-12-18, 02:38 PM
Wind Wall is pretty much immunity to arrows. And Barkskin always helps.

Lateral
2010-12-18, 02:45 PM
Wand of Mirror Image nets you 1d4+1 images for 4500 GP. 6000 GP for 1d4+2, 7500 for 1d4+3, etc. The costs may be lower if you use MIC, but I don't have MIC. Mirror image is a great spell. Greater mirror image is amazing, but it's 4th level and the immediate casting time is useless with a wand.

Edit: Also, +1 to wind wall.

randomhero00
2010-12-18, 02:48 PM
Sounds like problem then is more with the DM.

If it isn't, and they're being intelligent enemies. Then do the same. Hide for the first round. Try to get full cover and summon from there.

Get other party members (or hireling) to buff you.

Lateral
2010-12-18, 02:52 PM
Yeah, what are the other members? Druids aren't great buffers, so a wizard or cleric would be nice.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 02:53 PM
Sounds like problem then is more with the DM.

If it isn't, and they're being intelligent enemies. Then do the same. Hide for the first round. Try to get full cover and summon from there.

Get other party members (or hireling) to buff you.

I'm not a summoner though. I'm a controller. Hence I need to be able to see what's going on, in dungeons that don't reliably provide hiding spots. Summoning is rather useless when you have 4 melee party members already.

And yeah, gank the caster is a pretty smart move on an intelligent enemy's part.

Edit: I'm the only full caster in the party. The other casters are a sorc/fighter gish and an alchemist. Other than that, we have a ranger, 2 barbarians, and a fighter.

PersonMan
2010-12-18, 03:15 PM
+1 to going prone. It's +4 AC against ranged attacks, allows you to see combat as well as you normally can and doesn't require any specific investment.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-18, 03:23 PM
Cloak of Minor Displacement gives you a 20% miss chance from any attack, melee or ranged, so long as it is worn. IMO better than the Cloak of Major Displacement which gives you a 50% miss chance for 15 rounds/day.

Do you generally give yourself Resist Energy: Fire or have any items that'll do it for you?

ericgrau
2010-12-18, 03:25 PM
Don't forget that an ally gives +4 AC against ranged attacks from soft cover. If you're afraid to trap yourself by going prone you can kneel for +2 ranged AC. I think it's a move action that doesn't provoke to stand up from a kneel. You can also get a wild shield. A whopping 24,000 gp for a mere 20% makes cloak of minor displacement pretty lousy until later. AC is likely to be cheaper until high levels.

But ya druid base AC is pretty low so you need alternate methods like tactics and spells to protect you. Druids get a lot of crowd control spells you can use to lessen the damage to yourself and the whole party. Some like walls may even help with ranged attacks. I wouldn't summon during the fight too much because a 1 round casting time makes summons easy to disrupt with ranged attacks. Wind wall is okay if you expect arrows every fight, but if you face a variety of attacks like spells, boulders, melee, etc. too it's not that good as it might turn into a wasted spell slot. Instead try spells like sleet storm, fog cloud, wall of thorns and maybe obscuring mist. There are many other crowd control spells to use against melee too.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 03:26 PM
Cloak of Minor Displacement gives you a 20% miss chance from any attack, melee or ranged, so long as it is worn. IMO better than the Cloak of Major Displacement which gives you a 50% miss chance for 15 rounds/day.

Do you generally give yourself Resist Energy: Fire or have any items that'll do it for you?

I'm pretty sure I have a spell that will do that, why?

mootoall
2010-12-18, 03:33 PM
Also, if you want to stop getting hurt by ranged attacks, and if you've really maxxed wild shape AC, then you'll do best applying ranged penatlies to your opponents' attacks. Entangle's good for ganking ranged enemies. Summon some Monstrous Spiders to Web them. Stuff like that.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-18, 03:43 PM
I'm pretty sure I have a spell that will do that, why?

As stated by SurlySeraph above, Wind Wall will save you from the arrows, so I was just thinking about the rays you mentioned. Scorching Ray is the favored PC hurter of quite a few GMs. Or is your GM one of those who prefers Enervation?

Regardless, Resist Energy is only a 2nd level spell for you, it lasts 10 minutes/level, and it scales in its protective value with level (10 points of typed energy resistance/round at 3rd level, 20 points at 7th level, and 30 points at 1th level. If you expect to face a caster or a dragon on any given day, you should have at least one Resist Energy in your lineup unless you have an item that does it continuously.

Lateral
2010-12-18, 03:48 PM
Enervation is only used by eeeeeeeevil DMs. It's an okay way of taking out a monster, but on a PC? They have a good chance of losing levels permanently. Only cruel DMs...

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 03:49 PM
Also, if you want to stop getting hurt by ranged attacks, and if you've really maxxed wild shape AC, then you'll do best applying ranged penatlies to your opponents' attacks. Entangle's good for ganking ranged enemies. Summon some Monstrous Spiders to Web them. Stuff like that.

With pathfinder rules there's really not a lot of maxing to do with wild shape. Any good ideas for spells to use, preferably ones that won't also gank my sword-wielding companions? Web from the spiders looks nice, but summons take forever.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 03:51 PM
With pathfinder rules there's really not a lot of maxing to do with wild shape. Any good ideas for spells to use, preferably ones that won't also gank my sword-wielding companions? Web from the spiders looks nice, but summons take forever.

Entangle's always great if you can get your party out of its range/you have green stuff in the dungeons.

Not too familiar with PF, but don't smaller sizes let you get better AC there anyway?

olentu
2010-12-18, 04:00 PM
Enervation is only used by eeeeeeeevil DMs. It's an okay way of taking out a monster, but on a PC? They have a good chance of losing levels permanently. Only cruel DMs...

Not from enervation I recall. I suppose they could lose a level from getting enervated to death but they could die from some other thing anyway.

Eldariel
2010-12-18, 04:02 PM
Enervation is only used by eeeeeeeevil DMs. It's an okay way of taking out a monster, but on a PC? They have a good chance of losing levels permanently. Only cruel DMs...

Isn't that pretty par de course in D&D? I mean, dying costs you a level too. And happens every once in a while. And tons of undead drain levels. And so on. I thought people were used to levels and items coming and going by now.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 04:06 PM
Entangle's always great if you can get your party out of its range/you have green stuff in the dungeons.

Not too familiar with PF, but don't smaller sizes let you get better AC there anyway?

You get a +1 to AC from each size category smaller than medium.

Also, as I recall it was a modified ray of enfeeblement that did charisma damage last time.

Lateral
2010-12-18, 04:08 PM
Isn't that pretty par de course in D&D? I mean, dying costs you a level too. And happens every once in a while. And tons of undead drain levels. And so on. I thought people were used to levels and items coming and going by now.

No, getting energy drained loses you lots of levels, with only one touch attack and one save. Only extremely gritty games play like that. However-

Not from enervation I recall. I suppose they could lose a level from getting enervated to death but they could die from some other thing anyway.
-He's correct. I forgot that enervation can't become permanent, my bad.

Grelna the Blue
2010-12-18, 04:49 PM
Enervation is only used by eeeeeeeevil DMs. It's an okay way of taking out a monster, but on a PC? They have a good chance of losing levels permanently. Only cruel DMs...

Nah, it's not that bad. 3rd paragraph of the spell:


Assuming the subject survives, it regains lost levels after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15 hours). Usually, negative levels have a chance of permanently draining the victimís levels, but the negative levels from enervation donít last long enough to do so.

It's a nasty spell, no doubt, and no joke when cast on a PC, but although it could kill them and will screw with their spellcasting and saves and to hits, it won't permanently remove levels. Edit: Shoulda read through the thread. I don't think this even qualifies as a ninja moment.

Energy Drain, now that's a different story. But I've never been in a campaign where the GM was throwing those around.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 09:19 PM
So far we have the cloak of minor displacement and/or wand of mirror image. I'd rather not burn combat rounds if I don't have to. Prone possibly, I'm usually using flying and I'd rather not give it up (helps me avoid AoE enemies).

mootoall
2010-12-18, 09:22 PM
So far we have the cloak of minor displacement and/or wand of mirror image. I'd rather not burn combat rounds if I don't have to. Prone possibly, I'm usually using flying and I'd rather not give it up (helps me avoid AoE enemies).

If your DM will allow it, the Lords of Madness Smoking enhancement on a weapon is pretty awesome. 20% miss chance for a +1 bonus. I'm not sure if it stacks with Cloak of Minor Displacement, or if your opponent would just have to roll two miss chances, but either way, it's a nice thing to get.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 09:37 PM
If your DM will allow it, the Lords of Madness Smoking enhancement on a weapon is pretty awesome. 20% miss chance for a +1 bonus. I'm not sure if it stacks with Cloak of Minor Displacement, or if your opponent would just have to roll two miss chances, but either way, it's a nice thing to get.

How does that interact with wild shape?

mootoall
2010-12-18, 09:39 PM
How does that interact with wild shape?

Hmm, well it probably doesn't, unless you can get it on your natural weapons. Can you enchant your natural weapons? I don't think so, since otherwise I'd be seeing a lot more talk of +1 Flaming Colliding Wounding BEARS ... you could find out if any of your flying forms could use the footbow, the weapon from Races of Destiny. You wouldn't be proficient with it, but you probably won't be attacking with it either. You only have to hold it to use the enhancement.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 09:41 PM
Hmm, well it probably doesn't, unless you can get it on your natural weapons. Can you enchant your natural weapons? I don't think so, since otherwise I'd be seeing a lot more talk of +1 Flaming Colliding Wounding BEARS ... you could find out if any of your flying forms could use the footbow, the weapon from Races of Destiny. You wouldn't be proficient with it, but you probably won't be attacking with it either. You only have to hold it to use the enhancement.

I do already have a necklace of natural attacks, now that I think about it, enchanted with +1 warning. It's easier in PF since worn magic items retain their effects.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 09:48 PM
I do already have a necklace of natural attacks, now that I think about it, enchanted with +1 warning. It's easier in PF since worn magic items retain their effects.

Oh, okay. Then see if you can't add it on next time you can upgrade. And see what your DM says about it stacking/forcing another d% roll.

Tyndmyr
2010-12-18, 09:49 PM
That would be why I said they were targetting me at range. Melee is fine, but summons and flying don't do anything against the arrows and rays I'm getting shot with.

Rays sometimes have short range, so careful range management can be of some help there. Unfortunately, range increments for arrows are sufficiently long(and the penalty sufficiently light) that range isn't likely to help much.

Cover is good. Keep in mind that you don't need to fly high off the ground...utilizing trees, buildings, or tunnel corners for cover should net you a pretty solid AC bonus. In conjunction with wildshape, this should help a fair bit. Prone also works good for this if you're not flying at the moment.

Survey the arcane spell list for level 1-3 spells(subject to gold on hand) that help. Mage Armor is a great one, if you don't yet have a magic armor bonus. Buy an eternal wand of it. Point out that eternal wands do not require UMD or the spell to be on your spell list to use them. Enjoy.

I approve of your decision to ignore summons. They are utterly pointless when you already have a team of barbarians and the like.

Entangle is a good pre-move option. Cast it, then break Los. They can't shoot what they can't see.

On the above topic, obscuring mist, for tight situations.

Barkskin is a druid classic for buffing NA. May as well stack all the bennies you can. Cat's Grace is also a good option. Indirect way of adding armor, and as a side benefit, you get the other bennies of solid dex.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 09:59 PM
Entangle has already earned the designation in our game as "most useless spell ever." Seriously, everything either makes the reflex save, or uses one turn to break out and then gets out of the area. Also I seem to lose initiative a lot, so I have to make it through the first round here.

Person_Man
2010-12-18, 10:02 PM
Animated shield with a Crystal of Arrow Deflection: Provides an untyped bonus against all ranged attacks, and you get the Deflect Arrows feat. MIC.

You could also take the Block Arrow feat, which has the exact same effect as the Deflect Arrows feat (and it's effects would stack, allowing you to prevent 2 ranged attacks per round) except it works with a shield instead of unarmed strike, and it only requires Dex 13 and Shield Proficiency. Heroes of Battle, pg 96.

The uber defense against ranged attacks is the Wind Cloak soulmeld. It provides DR 2 + (2 * esssentia invested)/magic vs ranged attacks. In addition, Tiny or smaller creatures attempting to enter your square must succeed on Fort Save to do so, negating most Swarms and similar attacks. When bound to your Shoulder chakra you get the Deflect Arrows feat for free, you don't need a free hand to use it, and you can Deflect 1 + essentia invested attacks per round. Since Deflect Arrows works automatically and the DR is high enough to prevent the classic 100 Kobolds with shortbows or some other mook rush from harming you, you're pretty much set. Unfortunately you pretty much need to invest 3ish feats or levels of Incarnate to use it effectively, so it's not a good choice for your build. But I thought it was worth mentioning.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 10:03 PM
Entangle has already earned the designation in our game as "most useless spell ever." Seriously, everything either makes the reflex save, or uses one turn to break out and then gets out of the area. Also I seem to lose initiative a lot, so I have to make it through the first round here.

Huh. Since when does Entangle suck? I love Entangle. You are using the rule that it makes half movement even when they succeed the save, right? 'Cause ... that's how it works. Also, why are your DCs not pumped to ridiculous levels? Your Wis should be at least 18, and while Dex will be high for your enemies, they should still be able to only move 15 feet (if you're fighting humanoids) at a time if they want to attack at all ... It's really a wonderful battlefield control spell.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 10:12 PM
Huh. Since when does Entangle suck? I love Entangle. You are using the rule that it makes half movement even when they succeed the save, right? 'Cause ... that's how it works. Also, why are your DCs not pumped to ridiculous levels? Your Wis should be at least 18, and while Dex will be high for your enemies, they should still be able to only move 15 feet (if you're fighting humanoids) at a time if they want to attack at all ... It's really a wonderful battlefield control spell.

We are. Ranged things make the save, stay put and shoot at us with impunity because we can't get in to hit them without being entangled. My wisdom is as pumped as you can make it (I think it's a 27 now?). Plus I can't use it most of the time because our dungeons are either deep underground or indoors. Mainly indoors.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 10:18 PM
We are. Ranged things make the save, stay put and shoot at us with impunity because we can't get in to hit them without being entangled. My wisdom is as pumped as you can make it (I think it's a 27 now?). Plus I can't use it most of the time because our dungeons are either deep underground or indoors. Mainly indoors.

Well, to solve that you could just bring a couple potted plants with you, chuck it behind them, and then center the Entangle thirty feet behind them. That way, if the fail the save, you're only losing out on ten feet of movement. But yeah, I can see your party composition wouldn't really work for that, as it screws *all* melee ...

ericgrau
2010-12-18, 10:56 PM
Ya entangle isn't the best option for range.

You could try a glove of arrow snaring for a mere 4,000 gp.

Long duration buffs and permanent magic items in general are your best defenses due to action economy. You don't want to waste precious combat rounds on such things if you can avoid it. Any spell cast during combat to take out ranged guys should be offensive, like the uber sleet storm to temporarily take 1/2-2/3 of them out of your fight while your party engages the few remaining archers with ease.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 11:11 PM
If your DM will allow it, the Lords of Madness Smoking enhancement on a weapon is pretty awesome. 20% miss chance for a +1 bonus. I'm not sure if it stacks with Cloak of Minor Displacement, or if your opponent would just have to roll two miss chances, but either way, it's a nice thing to get.

Any chance you'd happen to have a page number on that? I can't find it.

Edit: Found it, might want to modify it so that it doesn't do the noxious thing. We pass off items in combat a lot.

mootoall
2010-12-18, 11:42 PM
Any chance you'd happen to have a page number on that? I can't find it.

Edit: Found it, might want to modify it so that it doesn't do the noxious thing. We pass off items in combat a lot.

The noxious bit specifically doesn't effect the weilder. It's really only a debuff if it's used in grapple.

WarKitty
2010-12-18, 11:55 PM
The noxious bit specifically doesn't effect the weilder. It's really only a debuff if it's used in grapple.

I know. We pass items around a lot and abuse grapple checks to move each other around.

Tvtyrant
2010-12-19, 02:13 AM
Get deflection bonuses to AC? Best thing I can think of, since deflection bonuses work on touch attacks.

MeeposFire
2010-12-19, 02:32 AM
Wild clasp a shield and take feats to get shield ward?

grimbold
2010-12-19, 04:56 AM
homebrew a divine version of mage shield if you want

Vistella
2010-12-19, 05:28 AM
Point out that eternal wands do not require UMD or the spell to be on your spell list to use them. Enjoy.

while that might be true, htey require you to cast arcane spells to use them though which (for a druid) means back to UMD

candycorn
2010-12-19, 11:32 AM
Things to think about:

Wild Armor. Keeps AC bonus when you shift, but melds in. So, if you have +1 Wild Fullplate (with magic vestments to +2), then, in Brown Bear form, your AC goes up to 25.

From there, a level of Fist of the Forest lets you add Con bonus to AC. For a brown bear, that puts your AC to 29.

If you're a dwarf, 2 levels of Deepwarden gives con to AC instead of dex. AC 32.

By that time (level 9), you can get a +4 con item (with wilding clasp), for AC 36 (alternately, Bear's Endurance). Magic vestment will get better, pushing you up to 37. If you upgrade that armor to extreme plate, your AC will go up another couple points, to 39.

+1 Natural Armor item, and, at level 9, you're looking at an AC of 40.

However, if not getting hit is important, after your AC starts getting high, you'll want to stack miss chance on top of that. A ring of blinking for a 50% miss chance will lower the hits on you from 1 in 20 to 1 in 40. Add on concealment to that (eventually greater cloak of displacement, and you're up to 1 in 80. Keep upping the items, add a monk's belt (Wis to AC), and remember the owl's insight spell in the Spell Compendium (+1/2 you caster level to wisdom as an insight bonus).

By level 20, a Druid 17/Deepwarden 2/ Fist of the Forest 1 can shift into, say...
T-rex. (Base AC 18. Replace Dex with Con x2... AC 39 (with Con +6 item), add wis to AC... AC 49 (assume 30 Wis, which is low)... +5 Deflection, +5 Nat armor... AC 59. +5 Wild extreme plate... AC 74. Practiced Spellcaster + Owl's Insight... AC 79.

At this point, You're looking at a touch AC of around 50, and a total AC so high that a great wyrm red (CR 26) needs a natural 20 to hit you with melee attacks... And it can go higher, with a little work. I didn't even really look at other animals. Just picked the first non-aquatic huge dinosaur I saw in the SRD.

(This assumes that the above 3.x classes/features/items are not majorly changed with Pathfinder, which I am not incredibly familiar with).

WarKitty
2010-12-19, 11:59 AM
Things to think about:

Wild Armor. Keeps AC bonus when you shift, but melds in. So, if you have +1 Wild Fullplate (with magic vestments to +2), then, in Brown Bear form, your AC goes up to 25.

From there, a level of Fist of the Forest lets you add Con bonus to AC. For a brown bear, that puts your AC to 29.

If you're a dwarf, 2 levels of Deepwarden gives con to AC instead of dex. AC 32.

By that time (level 9), you can get a +4 con item (with wilding clasp), for AC 36 (alternately, Bear's Endurance). Magic vestment will get better, pushing you up to 37. If you upgrade that armor to extreme plate, your AC will go up another couple points, to 39.

+1 Natural Armor item, and, at level 9, you're looking at an AC of 40.

However, if not getting hit is important, after your AC starts getting high, you'll want to stack miss chance on top of that. A ring of blinking for a 50% miss chance will lower the hits on you from 1 in 20 to 1 in 40. Add on concealment to that (eventually greater cloak of displacement, and you're up to 1 in 80. Keep upping the items, add a monk's belt (Wis to AC), and remember the owl's insight spell in the Spell Compendium (+1/2 you caster level to wisdom as an insight bonus).

By level 20, a Druid 17/Deepwarden 2/ Fist of the Forest 1 can shift into, say...
T-rex. (Base AC 18. Replace Dex with Con x2... AC 39 (with Con +6 item), add wis to AC... AC 49 (assume 30 Wis, which is low)... +5 Deflection, +5 Nat armor... AC 59. +5 Wild extreme plate... AC 74. Practiced Spellcaster + Owl's Insight... AC 79.

At this point, You're looking at a touch AC of around 50, and a total AC so high that a great wyrm red (CR 26) needs a natural 20 to hit you with melee attacks... And it can go higher, with a little work. I didn't even really look at other animals. Just picked the first non-aquatic huge dinosaur I saw in the SRD.

(This assumes that the above 3.x classes/features/items are not majorly changed with Pathfinder, which I am not incredibly familiar with).

Pathfinder no longer replaces your stats when you wildshape. I am not getting the con of my new form. Also, as I said in the OP, I already have wild full plate and spell compendium is banned.

John Campbell
2010-12-20, 01:04 PM
I think the ring of entropic deflection, from the MIC, is exactly what you're looking for. If you end turn 10' or more from where you started, you get a 20% miss chance against ranged attacks until the beginning of your next turn. If you have an item that increases your movement speed (e.g., boots of striding and springing), the miss chance goes up to 50%. 8000 gp, IIRC, though I'm AFB ATM and can't confirm that.

My mounted archer just picked up the ring of entropic deflection/boots of striding and springing combo, and hasn't regretted it. My mount single-moves, I can still full attack without penalty, and I get a 50% miss chance against return fire. If you're mostly doing standard-action spellcasting, you should be able to do the same thing without the mount.