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balistafreak
2010-12-19, 04:45 PM
Assonance appeal aside, I've taken a look at the Pathfinder Summoner, here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner).

From a strict reading of the summon monster I (sp) ability, can you have a summon active, and then summon your Eidolon? The ability reads "can only use this ability when his eidolon is not summoned" but it's in the air as to whether using the ability only counts for the casting. So you could have a summoned monster(s, but only from one casting) and your eidolon, if you have a minute to "prebuff" and you're not caster level 1.

Since a Druid can already be a bear riding a bear that shoots other bears (thank you, Mr. Moron), is it broken to allow the summoner to use his ability regardless of Eidolon?

I mean, it's probably Tier 2 material, but not overly so.

The_Scourge
2010-12-19, 04:50 PM
I believe there was an errata or an faq or some such that clarified this. You can have your eidolon OR a class feature summoned monster at any given time.

balistafreak
2010-12-19, 04:51 PM
That's... stupid. :smallconfused:

I mean, way to give you two mutually exclusive class features. :smallannoyed:

arguskos
2010-12-19, 04:53 PM
That's... stupid. :smallconfused:

I mean, way to give you two mutually exclusive class features. :smallannoyed:
In Beta, it wasn't the case. Then the PF editor was all "Summoners being good? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!" and changed it to the current version. Thus, why we're all very very sad.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-19, 05:02 PM
In Beta, it wasn't the case. Then the PF editor was all "Summoners being good? WHAAAAAAAAAAAAT?!" and changed it to the current version. Thus, why we're all very very sad.

Yup. I remember making a beta summoner which was a very cool and interesting character. Then came the nerfbat...

Akal Saris
2010-12-19, 06:01 PM
Yeah...honestly, the best solution is probably to talk to the DM and point out the idiocy that is the summoner being worse at its chosen niche than the wizard, druid, oracle, and witch.

Of course, if you play in PF society like me, then you're out of luck...which is why my summoner only lasted 1 round of play before I swapped him for a druid.

The_Scourge
2010-12-19, 10:19 PM
*shrug* The summon monster class feature has always seemed like an "emergency backup" if your eidolon is dismissed or whatnot, or if you're caught with your trousers down without your eidolon summoned.

Eidolons can Easily outclass druid's Animal companion, even most fighters.

balistafreak
2010-12-19, 11:24 PM
Yer callin' an equivalent to full-casting, standard action summon a "backup option". :smallamused:

Just thought that was funny.

I disagree about the Eidolon > fighter point... only because a well built "fighter" is actually a Warblade or something, and Eidolon =/> Warblade. You won't convince me otherwise there. :smalltongue:

Of course they're probably better than vanilla fighters, but that's not terribly hard either.

ICFTD
2010-12-19, 11:24 PM
The summoner doesn't need both the summon monster spell-like and his Eidolon.

If you build an Eidolon for killyness, it will likely outshine the melee characters in the party even without the aid of the Summoner for backup.

Bring along a quadruped with pounce and as many claws as you can fit, a size increase, and some mobility gubbinz and you're set for a tank. Then you get to play a superb melee character with a half-decent support caster covering it.

Strong tier 2 by being a painful DPR character plus buff-monkey with plenty of healing for the tank (Eidolon damage/death doesn't stick). Use Magic Device on a charisma-based caster plugs the holes.

balistafreak
2010-12-19, 11:30 PM
If you build an Eidolon for killyness, it will likely outshine the melee characters in the party even without the aid of the Summoner for backup.

If you're building the Eidolon for maximum killyness, I bet you that a better base character can be made. I mean, at best an Eidolon alone is Tier 4 due to lack of versatility (it's like a Barbarian, on crack, but still just a Barbarian). ToB characters can do more, even if they aren't as killy as Eidolons.


Bring along a quadruped with pounce and as many claws as you can fit, a size increase, and some mobility gubbinz and you're set for a tank. Then you get to play a superb melee character with a half-decent support caster covering it.

Isn't a Druid a superb caster with a half-decent melee character? Something like that, anyways. In Pathfinder Wild Shape is super-nerfed, but it's not negligible, so that can't be completely discounted either.


Strong tier 2 by being a painful DPR character plus buff-monkey with plenty of healing for the tank (Eidolon damage/death doesn't stick). Use Magic Device on a charisma-based caster plugs the holes.

Not sure they're Tier 2 anymore... I mean, they are a one-man party, but they still lack the "eat the world" capabilities of the Sorcerer and Psion, now that I think about it.

They're ridiculous Tier 3, though, I'll agree.

And yes, they don't need the summon monster ability and the Eidolon to be powerful, but it feels bad for them to be called "summoners". With a single Eidolon it's... not quite the same feeling.

ICFTD
2010-12-20, 12:13 AM
Well, an Eidolon is quite a bit more powerful than your average barbarian, in my estimation. The increased mobility of getting stuff like a fly or a climb speed is huge, as would be blindsense/blindsight/tremorsense, not mention the possibility of fast healing (damage goes away once combat is over). Stick that on top of the 3 to 9 pouncing natural attacks that likely well outstrip the melee fighter, and the other guy is struggling to keep up with the class feature alone. Even in versatility.

Also note that the Summoner spell progression lies. It's a dirty, dirty liar. Summoners get access to gate, teleportation circle, discern location, dominate monster, greater teleport, simulacrum, spell turning, dimensional lock, greater planar binding, plane shift, and a host of staple 6th and 5th level spells at lower slots than a sorcerer or Wizard would get them. Summoners are not quite Sorcerer in spellcasting, but not far either. In fact, they get Dominate Monster and Teleportation Circle *before* a Wizard or Sorcerer does.

Since they do support and utility near what sorcerer can pull off, do damage better than a dedicated DPR character, and incidentally heal because damage to the Eidolon doesn't stick, you have a character who can do everything short of wish or miracle (scrolls aside, of course).

Mojo_Rat
2010-12-20, 12:25 AM
The change to the summoning with Summoners was a good one and Balanced, If you want to have your Eidolon out along with using the Eidolon then i suggest looking into the Summon Eidolon spell, that is what it is there for. (well probably other reasons as well)

We currently are at level 8 and our Summoner could have done brutal amounts of damage very quickly using 31 str (i think) Celestial Bison Trampling people with smite followed by his Pouncing eidolon charging things.

the SLA is great when it is needed in a pinch but having both up is too strong.

On a side note any arguments about Eidolons being better than fighters is a complete Falacy, every time it is braught up on the Paizo forum there is inevtiably build errors in the Eidolon and somone who knows how to Build Character produces a fighter that is stronger. I suggest anyone interested look up the DPR olmpics thread on the Paizo forums and look up Falchion Fred on that Thread.

PF isnt 3.5 and PF fighters are pretty much un-matched single target killing machines. Eidolons are good but the real strength is the Eidolon and summoner and Action Economy.

Akal Saris
2010-12-20, 07:29 AM
The change to the summoning with Summoners was a good one and Balanced, If you want to have your Eidolon out along with using the Eidolon then i suggest looking into the Summon Eidolon spell, that is what it is there for. (well probably other reasons as well)

We currently are at level 8 and our Summoner could have done brutal amounts of damage very quickly using 31 str (i think) Celestial Bison Trampling people with smite followed by his Pouncing eidolon charging things.

the SLA is great when it is needed in a pinch but having both up is too strong.

On a side note any arguments about Eidolons being better than fighters is a complete Falacy, every time it is braught up on the Paizo forum there is inevtiably build errors in the Eidolon and somone who knows how to Build Character produces a fighter that is stronger. I suggest anyone interested look up the DPR olmpics thread on the Paizo forums and look up Falchion Fred on that Thread.

PF isnt 3.5 and PF fighters are pretty much un-matched single target killing machines. Eidolons are good but the real strength is the Eidolon and summoner and Action Economy.

Okay, it's balanced against the fighter (though not the wizard or druid), but is it fun? When I play a summoner, I really want to summon a ton of creatures, not choose between my "companion" and my summoning. Summoner was the only class I looked forward towards in the APG, and the final beta version was just about perfect. Then they added more nerfs and made me sad :smalleek:

balistafreak
2010-12-20, 09:10 AM
Okay, it's balanced against the fighter (though not the wizard or druid), but is it fun? When I play a summoner, I really want to summon a ton of creatures, not choose between my "companion" and my summoning.

It's still fun, just not as fulfilling and as fun as it could be. Like you, I want to be a "summoner", not "have-a-super-duper-animal-companion-er". :p Having to choose between that and summons just, as I've repeated before, feels bad.

Mojo_Rat
2010-12-20, 02:10 PM
You know you can still use normal summons right? Nothing prevents it.

Powerfamiliar
2010-12-20, 03:09 PM
Yeah, you can summon fine with the spell (SM, which I believe you get at an advanced rate). It's the class feature that is mutually exclusive with the Eilodon. It is essentially a backup to the Eilodon.

Nero24200
2010-12-20, 04:21 PM
I have to agree that choosing between the two is quite annoying. And personally, I don't feel the "learn the spell" solution is the best for a few reasons.

A - I don't feel a "spell tax" automatically fixes an issue that can be fixed so much more easily by just saying you can have both out.

B - It can only be done a few times per day. Less so if you actually plan on using spells of the appropriate level.

C - The Eidolon gains all the drawbacks of being a summoned creature that it normally forgoes - so summoning in this way means a foe can shut down your main class feature with a first level spell. Bit much to give up a second level spell known and spell slots per day when a single casting of a lower level spell makes it pointless. In essence, your Eidolon goes from "Glorified Pet" to "Glorified Summons" with a 1 round casting time.

D - It's not even an option at 1st-3rd level. As someone who has just played a summoner from 1st level who is now 3rd, I can say from experience that it's annoying that it's "one or the other". There are quite a few times when I don't bother even summoning the Eidolon if I suspect I may need the aid of other creatures at some point during the day.

balistafreak
2010-12-20, 06:41 PM
The level-awkwardness means that at 4th level, your summons are a level behind (although you do get haste then, so eh). They catch back up again at summon monster iv at 7th level, but remember that they have bard progression for their spell slots. They don't have the luxury of dropping three/four of their highest level summon and having a slot or two to spare for other things like Focused Conjurers do, for example.

Kurald Galain
2010-12-20, 07:24 PM
I want to be a "summoner", not "have-a-super-duper-animal-companion-er".

Yes, I agree with that. Having a big powerful magical creature by your side all the time is powerful and effective, but it's not a summoner.

randomhero00
2010-12-20, 07:28 PM
Ya, agree with most of the above. The nerf was way too much, and doesn't even really make much sense.