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Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-19, 09:59 PM
So I'm building an Elf Wizard//Rogue for a Pathfinder game. We can use anything Paizo has published (so long as it is for the Pathfinder system, no 3.5 stuff) but I only have the Core Rulebook and Bestiary (though I can get the Advanced Player's Guide if I really need to) and I have access to the PFSRD (of course). I was wondering if I could build a pseudo-Mailman (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19868534/The_Mailman:_A_Direct_Damage_Sorcerer) with those sources (though my gut tells me it's unlikely). If so, how would I go about it? If not, I was thinking I'd go for a Two Weapon Fighter/Buffer/Battlefield Controller (probably specced into Divination, so I go first).

As far as what kind of character I want him to be, I'm thinking he should be a capable sneak, but also something of a social engineer - he could sneak past the guards and get into the party, but he'd rather talk his way past them. He's well read, acrobatic, and spent some of his early years on the streets, and is a capable thief.

My stats are 16, 20, 14, 20, 12, 18 after racial modifiers, and I figure I'll take the extra skillpoint for my favored class bonus. As far as feats go, I'm open to just about anything, but I'd like for him to use a Rapier and Short Sword in combat, and therefore I'll want the TWF chain. I'd also like to get Craft Magic Arms and Armor and Craft Wondrous Item, if I can. For skills, I'd like to have Acrobatics, the Social Rogue skills, the Sneak Rogue skills, and Knowledges. I should also have at least a rank in Craft: Blacksmithing or somesuch, and I should have Sleight of Hand as well, due to backstory.

So, Playground, any ideas?

Arutema
2010-12-19, 10:55 PM
The problem with using a rapier and short sword is that you don't have a hand free to cast spells with somatic or material components. If you're planning to focus on buffs this isn't much of a problem as you can buff up before you draw your weapons.

Otherwise, I'd look for a combat style which is less feat-intensive and leaves you with a free hand to cast spells.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 02:24 AM
Hmmm, you have a good point there. I could probably go sword and buckler (that'd leave a hand free right?) but only once I can afford a masterwork shield. The trouble is I figure TWF is the best way to take advantage of my Sneak Attack. But I could go two-handed on a longsword instead, and I have a decent strength score, so that could work (+ Power Attack of course). I just find the idea of a power attack sneak attack to be kinda funny.

Akal Saris
2010-12-20, 02:56 AM
Usually the best way for an arcane rogue to get sneak attack past the very low levels is through Greater Invisibility or making opponents flat-footed with Grease and Web spells. You could also summon monsters, have them grapple, and then shoot opponents for SA.

In your case, I would swap Charisma and Strength around, and try to build for an archer/thrown weapons specialist. That way you can open fights from ranged, but when you need to fight in melee for flanking (which, from my own experience, is far too often), you can still use your primary weapons. Quick Draw and Two-weapon fighting will let you throw 2 daggers or melee with them, and swap between your bow and other weapons much more easily.

Sample build:
Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Arcane Archer 3
Gets: BAB +13, CL 17, 7d6 Sneak Attack, various other nifty abilities.

Feats:
1: Quick Draw
2: Scribe Scroll [Wiz]
3: Point Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
6B: Craft Wondrous Item [Wiz]
7: Two Weapon Fighting
9: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
11: Deadly Aim
13: Improved Initiative
15: Quicken Spell
17: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19: Improved Precise Shot

HunterOfJello
2010-12-20, 02:59 AM
You can use a quarterstaff as a double weapon to do TWF sneak attacks. It's a simple weapon, allows you to cast spells while you hold it and fits as a wizard//rogue.

gorfnab
2010-12-20, 03:07 AM
Pick up a pair of Snipers Goggles (Advanced Player's Guide page 309) as soon as you can afford them. This item is just awesome for pretty much any sneak attacking builds in Pathfinder, especially when using long range ray type spells.

Quirken
2010-12-20, 03:15 AM
So I'm building an Elf Wizard//Rogue for a Pathfinder game. We can use anything Paizo has published (so long as it is for the Pathfinder system, no 3.5 stuff)
Assuming a PDF on Paizo's website counts as being published...


The problem with using a rapier and short sword is that you don't have a hand free to cast spells with somatic or material components. If you're planning to focus on buffs this isn't much of a problem as you can buff up before you draw your weapons.


Check out the playtest for the Magus class. It's currently unfinished, but will be in The Ultimate Magic book from Paizo next year. It has mechanics for one-handed casting.

http://paizo.com/store/v5748btpy8i0z

It's free, but might not be available long, since it's in testing and they're gonna publish it in a few months. (You're looking for "Spell Combat" on page 4)

Akal Saris
2010-12-20, 03:19 AM
Pick up a pair of Snipers Goggles (Advanced Player's Guide page 309) as soon as you can afford them. This item is just awesome for pretty much any sneak attacking builds in Pathfinder, especially when using long range ray type spells.

Wow that's a good item. +2 dmg/die and unlimited range? Sign me up!

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 01:22 PM
Usually the best way for an arcane rogue to get sneak attack past the very low levels is through Greater Invisibility or making opponents flat-footed with Grease and Web spells. You could also summon monsters, have them grapple, and then shoot opponents for SA.

In your case, I would swap Charisma and Strength around, and try to build for an archer/thrown weapons specialist. That way you can open fights from ranged, but when you need to fight in melee for flanking (which, from my own experience, is far too often), you can still use your primary weapons. Quick Draw and Two-weapon fighting will let you throw 2 daggers or melee with them, and swap between your bow and other weapons much more easily.

Sample build:
Elf Rogue 1/Wizard 5/Assassin 1/Arcane Trickster 10/Arcane Archer 3
Gets: BAB +13, CL 17, 7d6 Sneak Attack, various other nifty abilities.

Feats:
1: Quick Draw
2: Scribe Scroll [Wiz]
3: Point Blank Shot
5: Precise Shot
6B: Craft Wondrous Item [Wiz]
7: Two Weapon Fighting
9: Craft Magic Arms and Armor
11: Deadly Aim
13: Improved Initiative
15: Quicken Spell
17: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting
19: Improved Precise Shot

I hadn't considered going the thrower route. Do the Two Weapon Fighting feats work with throwing? Also, I should have been more explicit that this is a Gestalt game, just so's you know. I'd rather avoid prestige classes on the whole, if I can, I long to play something simple.


You can use a quarterstaff as a double weapon to do TWF sneak attacks. It's a simple weapon, allows you to cast spells while you hold it and fits as a wizard//rogue.

I could see him using TWF and a quarterstaff, at least until he can afford a "proper sword" (I really prefer to play him as a swordsman, personally). I could also go the Dervish Dance route, but that would preclude TWF if I remember correctly.


Pick up a pair of Snipers Goggles (Advanced Player's Guide page 309) as soon as you can afford them. This item is just awesome for pretty much any sneak attacking builds in Pathfinder, especially when using long range ray type spells.

I will, thanks. Those are pretty awesome - if I were to go the primary Archer build (which I very well could) they would let me snipe from relative safety.


Assuming a PDF on Paizo's website counts as being published...

Check out the playtest for the Magus class. It's currently unfinished, but will be in The Ultimate Magic book from Paizo next year. It has mechanics for one-handed casting.

http://paizo.com/store/v5748btpy8i0z

It's free, but might not be available long, since it's in testing and they're gonna publish it in a few months. (You're looking for "Spell Combat" on page 4)

I'd rather not play a Magus - this isn't supposed to be a gish build so much as it is a skilled Wizard build (such is the beauty of Gestalt).

gorfnab
2010-12-20, 01:41 PM
Do the Two Weapon Fighting feats work with throwing?
Yes.

From the Pathfinder SRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html)


Two-Weapon Fighting

If you wield a second weapon in your off hand, you can get one extra attack per round with that weapon. You suffer a 6 penalty with your regular attack or attacks with your primary hand and a 10 penalty to the attack with your off hand when you fight this way. You can reduce these penalties in two ways. First, if your off-hand weapon is light, the penalties are reduced by 2 each. An unarmed strike is always considered light. Second, the Two-Weapon Fighting feat lessens the primary hand penalty by 2, and the off-hand penalty by 6.

Table: Two-weapon Fighting Penalties summarizes the interaction of all these factors.

Double Weapons: You can use a double weapon to make an extra attack with the off-hand end of the weapon as if you were fighting with two weapons. The penalties apply as if the off-hand end of the weapon was a light weapon.

Thrown Weapons: The same rules apply when you throw a weapon from each hand. Treat a dart or shuriken as a light weapon when used in this manner, and treat a bolas, javelin, net, or sling as a one-handed weapon.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 01:45 PM
Yes.

From the Pathfinder SRD (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/combat.html)

Excellent. I may have to mix throwing and Two Weapon Fighting then (if I can fit in all the feats).

Ravens_cry
2010-12-20, 01:49 PM
You say you aren't using 3.5 stuff, but you're using the double brackets. Are you or are you not using gestalt? *confused ravens cry is confused*

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 02:13 PM
No 3.5 material, and we're playing gestalt. Yeah, it's a bit off, I suppose, but it's what the DM told me.

Saint GoH
2010-12-20, 02:25 PM
Well... gestalt in and of itself isn't JUST a 3.5 idea ya know? It is also a psychological state wherein one set of traits cannot fully describe a character (only one side of the gestalt does not tell all about the character).

As for the TC, I suggest the throwing route. He can still carry a rapier and be fairly competent, but as you said you DON'T want him to be a gish, and my definition of gish is standing in melee but perfectly capable of casting spells. I would think Mr. Wizard would prefer to be as far away from sword wielding baddies if he wasn't a gish.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-20, 03:39 PM
Well... gestalt in and of itself isn't JUST a 3.5 idea ya know? It is also a psychological state wherein one set of traits cannot fully describe a character (only one side of the gestalt does not tell all about the character).

Well, yes, but as a player option for characters, Pathfinder doesn't have it yet.
But whatever, the DM is allowing it, so fine. I just wanted to make sure.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 04:44 PM
Well... gestalt in and of itself isn't JUST a 3.5 idea ya know? It is also a psychological state wherein one set of traits cannot fully describe a character (only one side of the gestalt does not tell all about the character).

As for the TC, I suggest the throwing route. He can still carry a rapier and be fairly competent, but as you said you DON'T want him to be a gish, and my definition of gish is standing in melee but perfectly capable of casting spells. I would think Mr. Wizard would prefer to be as far away from sword wielding baddies if he wasn't a gish.

Yeah, I think that's what I'm gonna do. What feats do I need, beyond the TWFing tree and Deadly Aim? And I'm still interested in hearing if we can create a pseudo-mailman out of this guy.

Quirken
2010-12-20, 05:38 PM
I'd rather not play a Magus - this isn't supposed to be a gish build so much as it is a skilled Wizard build (such is the beauty of Gestalt).

I didn't mean so much "You could play a magus" as "You could borrow this one class ability, maybe as a feat, with DM approval."

Joshinthemosh
2010-12-20, 09:56 PM
If you're interested in the archer/thrower route, the APG has a varient Rogue called the Sniper http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sniper. This might help what you're thinking of.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-20, 10:33 PM
If you're interested in the archer/thrower route, the APG has a varient Rogue called the Sniper http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sniper. This might help what you're thinking of.

Eh, I looked it over and wasn't terribly impressed. It's basically bettered by a single magic item, so not so worth it in my opinion.

As far as cribbing class abilities from the Magus, I don't think I'll be needing to, honestly. This guy isn't looking to cast through his weapons, so much as cast, and also kick butt with daggers or a brace of swords.