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SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 01:11 AM
i watched the book of eli awhile back and started thinking about a blind character, and what it would entail to play one that was actually effective. i soon lost the train of thought, because before a game (in case you all havent noticed) i jump from character idea to idea.

but i just watched another blind fighter movie, a foreign film on netflix called Ichi. she is a blind bard (sorta) who fights with a ninja-to bladed sword-cane, with a iajutsu master (OA) style of fighting. a lot of drawing and cutting, draw then cut, and when surrounded, she does a combat reflexes/whirlwind sort of style. its all guided by what she can hear, and feel.

this has maybe been discussed before, and if it has, then a redirrect would be awesome, but does anyone have any experience with this? what are your thoughts on iajutsu master prc from oa? maybe just a 2 level dip for int to ac and cha to initiative? along with weapon focus katana. i would want this to be a blind gish, psionics maybe?

[edited]
swashbuckler 3 as an intro, int to damage with a katana would be sweet. certain things from 3.0 are allowed, and all 3.5, but dont say war blade, cuz the dm is hesitant about tob, doesnt know it really

swash 3/rogue ?/iajutsu master 2+ with daring outlaw feat. would be pretty cool. not a gish really though...(at all lol)

i could probably get my dm to let me use the psychic rogue for daring outlaw (http://www.realmshelps.net/cgi-bin/feats.pl?Daring_Outlaw)

woodenbandman
2010-12-22, 02:03 AM
Don't do it for these following reasons:

1: extra work on the DM's part, he has to describe the room exclusively in terms of sounds for you.
2: You technically cannot find out where your enemies are without a very hard listen check
3: You have roughly a 25% chance to miss in addition to your miss chance due to rolling poorly etc
4: I'm pretty sure that being blind will affect your AC in some way too.

Xuc Xac
2010-12-22, 02:14 AM
"I'm blind but it doesn't affect my melee abilities at all, like Zatoichi. Can I have Tremorsense 30' in exchange for not being able to see?" Then make a non-charging melee focused character.

It should be fair. Anything not on the ground and close to you is essentially "invisible" to you. You can't make any ranged attacks. You can't read anything that isn't a carved inscription. You can't run without risking injury from tripping or hitting something (even Zatoichi trips while walking sometimes, even if he can shave your eyebrows with a swing of his sword).

Psyren
2010-12-22, 02:18 AM
i would want this to be a blind gish, psionics maybe?

Emphatic yes:

1) Either Psywar 20, or Ranger 2/Seer 8/Slayer 10
2) Wear a blindfold (or just be blind)
3) Use this (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/synesthete.htm)
4) ???
5) Profit

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 02:37 AM
what im thinking of doing is this. the dm has said something along the lines of "ill give you psionic sonar" . im also going to ask for blind sight, though im not sure ill get it. )he has stated that each of us will get a special ability to make things special, i just asked him for blindsight AND tremorsense = to 10 feat/level, whadya think?)

he also has said that i can use psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) to qualify and count as rogue levels for daring outlaw.

swash 3/psyRogue 13/elocater 4 OR a few more levels of elocater, but i dont want to lose sneak attack, or many more MLs. this build only gets 4th outa 5th level powers. it does however get 6d6 sneak attack(daring outlaw), combined with sidestep charge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#sidestepCharge) and flanker and maybe combat reflexes, packs a good wallop! also gets doge +3 and grace +2 from equating to a lev 16 swash (daring outlaw)

what do you think of the power list for the psyRogue though?, its not as great as the psyWarrior to be sure.

MeeposFire
2010-12-22, 02:44 AM
I was thinking dragonfire adept. No need for attack rolls, gets blindsense by invocation (or draconic feats), AOE attacks (no miss chance), and gets listen as a class skill (plus other really nice skills). If you want you could reflavor to ki and making ki fireblast attacks.

EDIT: You could also take mindbender (I think that is the prc) and get telepathy which you can use to get a wider ranged blindsense (you still want generic blindesnse by feat or invocation since mindless creatres will be missed by this combo).

Psyren
2010-12-22, 02:52 AM
Did you see my link? Synesthete IS psionic sonar.
Why Psychic Rogue? Instead of relying on precision damage, you can buff up with Strength of My Enemy etc. and Power Attack for massive damage instead.


he also has said that i can use psychic rogue (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20040723b) to qualify and counts as rogue levels for daring outlaw.

I'm not seeing the benefit here. Daring Outlaw is for adding sneak attack to Swashbucklers, not for adding Grace to Rogues. And since doing the former would mean losing ML and PP, it's not worth it.

I say ditch Swashbuckler, stick with Psyrogue/Elocater (or one of my builds above.)

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 02:58 AM
Did you see my link? Synesthete IS psionic sonar.
Why Psychic Rogue? Instead of relying on precision damage, you can buff up with Strength of My Enemy etc. and Power Attack for massive damage instead.



I'm not seeing the benefit here. Daring Outlaw is for adding sneak attack to Swashbucklers, not for adding Grace to Rogues. And since doing the former would mean losing ML and PP, it's not worth it.

I say ditch Swashbuckler, stick with Psyrogue/Elocater (or one of my builds above.)

daring outlaw does both, increase sneak attack, as well as grace and dodge from swash. swash 3 give int to damage, which as a int based character is handy. also fits for flavor. also, im not really supposed to be the main fighter, there will be a paladin and a samurai for that. also, sneak attack and elocater seem perfect for each other!

also, i edited with this, dont know if you saw it

(he has stated that each of us will get a special ability to make things special, i just asked him for blindsight AND tremorsense = to 10 feat/level, whadya think?)

MeeposFire
2010-12-22, 03:02 AM
The problem will be is that you will be hurting if it is immune to crits (no sneak attack or int to damage). You also lose out on a +16 BAB or better. Not the end of the world but it will hurt a little.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 03:08 AM
The problem will be is that you will be hurting if it is immune to crits (no sneak attack or int to damage). You also lose out on a +16 BAB or better. Not the end of the world but it will hurt a little.
tru, and i see the sense of psywar instead or psyrogue. but its for flavor i guess, and traps. id be the skill monkey/trapfinder. though even with tremorsense and blindsight, i guess i might not be too good at it..... LOL

Psyren
2010-12-22, 03:10 AM
daring outlaw does both, increase sneak attack, as well as grace and dodge from swash.

I know what DO does, but I don't think the 3 wasted levels in Swashbuckler make up for it. For a regular rogue it's a good move, but a Psyrogue is giving up 36 PP and +3 ML, and you're already losing ML to Elocater. Daring Outlaw won't count your Elocater levels either.


also, i edited with this, dont know if you saw it

If you get blindsense and tremorsense great, you won't need Synesthete (though I wonder what difficulty being blind will actually have for you then).

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 03:18 AM
I know what DO does, but I don't think the 3 wasted levels in Swashbuckler make up for it. For a regular rogue it's a good move, but a Psyrogue is giving up 36 PP and +3 ML, and you're already losing ML to Elocater. Daring Outlaw won't count your Elocater levels either.



If you get blindsense and tremorsense great, you won't need Synesthete (though I wonder what difficulty being blind will actually have for you then).

ill look cool :D

and....youre probly right. i like the dodge and ref saves, as well as the 3 bab...

if dropped, i would still get 6d6 sneak, plus 5th level powers. i just dont know what to do with said 5th level powers, there arent many of them, and they dont seem very awesome to me. i am a higher level gaming noob though, eveytime i start to get somewhere, the game ends. my highest level was a 12. ive never had over 4th level spells. i really dont know what i would do if i DID have over 4th level spellss ha

MeeposFire
2010-12-22, 03:47 AM
Actually you do not gain any BAB.

Swash gives you plus 3 BAB.

Psy rogue 14-16 also gives you +3 BAB.

Havelock
2010-12-22, 03:54 AM
Eh, for 60k, you can get a custom psionic item giving permanent Touchsight.

It's basically, feel everything within 60ft line of effect as if you were running your hands over it.

Psyren
2010-12-22, 05:21 AM
ill look cool :D

and....youre probly right. i like the dodge and ref saves, as well as the 3 bab...

if dropped, i would still get 6d6 sneak, plus 5th level powers. i just dont know what to do with said 5th level powers, there arent many of them, and they dont seem very awesome to me. i am a higher level gaming noob though, eveytime i start to get somewhere, the game ends. my highest level was a 12. ive never had over 4th level spells. i really dont know what i would do if i DID have over 4th level spellss ha

5th-level powers are *very* important. Well, okay, they suck, but having them means you can Expanded Knowledge 4th-level powers, and those are some of the most useful powers in the game.

Aura Sight
Control Body
Fly
Metamorphosis
Psychic Reformation
Schism

As for good 5th-level powers, you will want True Seeing. Remote Viewing and Retrieve form a nice combo, especially for a thief. And don't forget that you don't HAVE to learn 5th-level powers, that's just the highest level you have access to - you can keep learning the lower ones if you think they're more useful for your campaign.

But yeah, Swashbuckler doesn't even come close to getting you these kind of goodies.

JaronK
2010-12-22, 05:46 AM
Blindfold of True Darkness is your friend. There's already a Blind flaw you can take, so take that... it's here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blind_%283.5e_Flaw%29

You don't need tremorsense or anything like that. You just won't have solid long range detection abilities. It would be great if you could take Mindsight, but that's unlikely to work with a pure melee build. Still, Swashbuckler 3/OA Samurai 1/Warblade 1/Iajuitsu Master 10 is a solid build start (take more Warblade at the end). Or consider a Monk/Shou Disciple/Iajuitsu Master combo. Perhaps Factotum 8/Mindbender 1/Iajuitsu Master 10/Warblade or Swordsage 1 with Mindsight?

Actually, that last one might be perfect. Solid long(er) range detection, amazing Iajuitsu damage, extra actions to bring it together, and decent Int synergy. You still need the Blindfold to avoid miss chances. Though unfortunately, katanas kinda suck for Iajuitsu Focus, since Gnomish Quickrazors are so much better for the purpose. Then again, nothing stops you from using both... draw the katana and attack with that first with both hands, let go with your main hand, then make all your iterative attacks with a quickrazor while you just hold the katana in your offhand (doesn't count as TWF if you're not swinging with it there). It might have a nice ninja type feel, actually.

JaronK

grimbold
2010-12-22, 07:43 AM
also if you take the blind flaw you get a bonus feat which should help
it would be a good challenge if your DM is willing

MickJay
2010-12-22, 07:57 AM
Roleplaying a blind character can be both fun and tricky, even if you do have ways of knowing what your surroundings roughly are, and knowing where other people (or enemies) might be.

- you do not know what colour things are, unless someone tells you
- you can't read anything (and are unlikely to be able to write, either)
- unless people speak, you have no way of identifying people, unless they have some very obvious characteristic you'd be able to detect (i.e. you could sense if someone was Large, or Small, or hear what armor they wear if they moved, but not much else)

all these might not have a massive impact on a typical dungeon crawl (except that you'd need others to tell you what the monster you'll be hitting is, especially if immunities and resistances come into play), but could be quite troublesome in a more rp-oriented game. Depending on the ways of mitigating blindness, you could also be quite helpless against flying opponents.

Psyren
2010-12-22, 09:03 AM
Going off of JaronK's suggestion, going Telepath 8 instead of Seer 8 in the Ranger/Psion/Slayer build will let you take the Telepathy ACF. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) With that, you can explicitly qualify for Mindsight from LoM.

Between that, Touchsight and Synesthete, you might even forget you ever needed eyes!

Oh, did I mention R/Ps/Sl gets 9th-level powers and 16 BAB?

Karuth
2010-12-22, 09:53 AM
The Oracle Class in pathfinder has "blind" as one option for a curse.

Advantage is that all the penalties are already described and you get abilities to make up for your blindness as you advance.

Oracle is caster though and not a fighter.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 01:25 PM
Blindfold of True Darkness is your friend. There's already a Blind flaw you can take, so take that... it's here: http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Blind_%283.5e_Flaw%29

You don't need tremorsense or anything like that. You just won't have solid long range detection abilities. It would be great if you could take Mindsight, but that's unlikely to work with a pure melee build. Still, Swashbuckler 3/OA Samurai 1/Warblade 1/Iajuitsu Master 10 is a solid build start (take more Warblade at the end). Or consider a Monk/Shou Disciple/Iajuitsu Master combo. Perhaps Factotum 8/Mindbender 1/Iajuitsu Master 10/Warblade or Swordsage 1 with Mindsight?

Actually, that last one might be perfect. Solid long(er) range detection, amazing Iajuitsu damage, extra actions to bring it together, and decent Int synergy. You still need the Blindfold to avoid miss chances. Though unfortunately, katanas kinda suck for Iajuitsu Focus, since Gnomish Quickrazors are so much better for the purpose. Then again, nothing stops you from using both... draw the katana and attack with that first with both hands, let go with your main hand, then make all your iterative attacks with a quickrazor while you just hold the katana in your offhand (doesn't count as TWF if you're not swinging with it there). It might have a nice ninja type feel, actually.

JaronK

i think its funny that the one thing i said i couldnt be (or didnt want to because of dm) is in every build suggestion hehe :smallbiggrin:

still, that looks like a cool build, coupled with psyrens ideas...ill look into it definitely.


also if you take the blind flaw you get a bonus feat which should help
it would be a good challenge if your DM is willing

might receive blindsight/tremorsense, or some combination of them. the dm like to give us all a nice ability when we start. also, we're starting at level 5.

im a japanese character, and the samurai in the party is my sworn protector (he is the most powerful samurai under my father, who was killed. im the last surviving direct bloodline offspring of 'dad'). we have a samurai, a paladin/hunter of the dead (eventually), a druid (who might take the swift ambusher feat), and maybe a second paladin, one who like to be a little silly in games- hes a centaur pally lol! i asked him if he would be his own special mount? :) therefore, the 2 roles that arent filled are skill monkey, and 9th level arcane (psion would work) caster. my elocater was a feeble attempt to fill both roles, but like i said, i think a blind trap finder is counter productive LOL


Going off of JaronK's suggestion, going Telepath 8 instead of Seer 8 in the Ranger/Psion/Slayer build will let you take the Telepathy ACF. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) With that, you can explicitly qualify for Mindsight from LoM.

Between that, Touchsight and Synesthete, you might even forget you ever needed eyes!

Oh, did I mention R/Ps/Sl gets 9th-level powers and 16 BAB?

im looking for slayer, and i found something, but dont think it is what youre talking about, can u point me to it? also, what levels are you talking about for this, i gotta rush to work, ttyl :)

[edit again] think i found it for real this time, and honestly, i dont like it. it is cool in a psionics only world, but i dont think ill have much need for abilities like brain nasea in this game. what were you suggesting for this class? just because it has almost full casting, and full bab? it is pretty cool, but i dont know....

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 01:28 PM
[edited cuz i double posted without thinking]

Psyren
2010-12-22, 01:49 PM
im looking for slayer, and i found something, but dont think it is what youre talking about, can u point me to it? also, what levels are you talking about for this, i gotta rush to work, ttyl :)

Slayer is here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)

You need track, which is why I gave you two levels of Ranger (plus the skill points at first level, martial weapons and armor proficiency.) Your Intelligence will be very high because you'll be a Psion.

Final Build: Ranger 2/Psion 8/Slayer 10 (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/prestigeClasses/slayer.htm)

BAB = 2 + 4 + 10 = 16 (4 attacks)
ML = 8 + 9 = 17 (9th-level powers)
Proficiencies: Any racial, martial weapons, heavy armor, light shields

From there, simply pick what kind of psion you want to be.

Telepaths and Seers are better trackers (The former can get Mindsight, the latter has Divination, Remote Viewing, Metafaculty, Hypercognition etc.)

Nomads and Egoists are better fighters (The former gets things like Temporal Acceleration, Inconstant Location, Time Regression etc. The latter gets things like Fission, Fusion, Greater Metamorphosis etc.)

Kineticists and Shapers are better as pure casters rather than gishes.

SilverLeaf167
2010-12-22, 01:58 PM
For my next campaign, one of the players wanted to make a blind Psion//Rogue gestalt. He took blindness as a flaw, granting him a bonus feat and a small bonus on Listen and Search checks made by touching (as he has to depend on his other senses). He then took a Psicrystal, which can see stuff and describe it to him telepathically. He also took a Mindbender tip plus Mindsight, giving him Blindsense 100 ft. I allowed him to take an additional homebrew feat to gain Blindsight 50 ft.

So, he took a big weakness for his character for homebrew reasons, and spent a lot of resources to not-so-completely counter it, making a cool character. I'm kind of proud for him, as he is usually the most munchkinny player of the group.

Tokuhara
2010-12-22, 03:28 PM
I once ran a Blind Sorcerer who the DM used my familiar as my "eyes," so i say if you want to run a blind PC, then I say thet tend to be some of the most fun PCs for their flaws alone

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-22, 07:35 PM
almost makes me want to revisit some eternal blade ideas i had, now that i could maybe use the lil buddy to see with. although i did say tob use while not prohibited, is discouraged..

re: psyren

i just dont know how i feel about the slayer other than it is nice it has almost full casting and bab. other than that, id prob avoid it normally as its abilities for the most part seem too focused. im not even sure we'll ever run across a fav enemy (my usualal complaint about the ability, i never see my fav enemy in a game).

still this could be flavored to be daughter-of-the-shogun samurai with special powers developed because of her blindness. sorta like that flick carrie LOL, cept i wasnt made fun of cuz i had my er..aunt flo.. in the hot springs near my estate....

psyren, would it be better to use this ranger variant (http://dsp-d20-srd.wikidot.com/ranger)? would net me a power point or 2.

and what book is slayer in?

Psyren
2010-12-22, 09:55 PM
Slayer is in the XPH, and is called Illithid Slayer there. Use the online version though, it's easier to qualify for and lets you choose your favored enemy.

If your DM lets you use the Psionic Ranger from DSP, by all means take it. You'll need at least 13 Wis anyway for Psionic Meditation so you may as well get some bonus PP out of it.

The only other way I can see you to get 9ths and full BAB is a DSP class like Enlightened Protector, though finagling your way into that will be tricky.

Greenish
2010-12-23, 12:14 AM
Going off of JaronK's suggestion, going Telepath 8 instead of Seer 8 in the Ranger/Psion/Slayer build will let you take the Telepathy ACF. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) With that, you can explicitly qualify for Mindsight from LoM.I've been wondering, can you use powers (say, psionic charm) against targets you only 'see' with Mindsight?

Gabe the Bard
2010-12-23, 02:37 AM
Whatever build you choose, there are some interesting things you could do with a blind character. Have the party wizard cast Darkness on you so that your enemies can't see. If you take the Darkstalker feat from Lords of Madness, you'll be even harder to find. You'll also have a surprise up your sleeves for invisible opponents or a drow party using Darkness or Blacklight.

Of course, you're lack of eyesight will leave you vulnerable in other ways. Without tremorsense or psychic abilities, you'll be much more affected by a Deafness spell. Even with psychic abilities, you won't be able to "see" the presence of constructs, oozes, or mindless undead. But I think these weaknesses can make the character more interesting and give different options to the DM to make challenging encounters.

I also think it can be quite interesting for the DM to describe the scenery aurally. It could help the DM get more ideas for hints to give about what's happening around you. With your hypersensitive hearing, you're more likely to pick up those very subtle noises that the rest of the party will easily miss.

Psyren
2010-12-23, 10:26 AM
I've been wondering, can you use powers (say, psionic charm) against targets you only 'see' with Mindsight?

Yes and no. You can't use targeted spells like Psionic Charm, because you can't actually see them (assuming they are invisible to your other senses, they have Total Concealment, just like with Blindsense.) Which leads us to the SRD:


Total Concealment

If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You canít attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies.

Targeted spells cannot therefore be used. Aimed spells (i.e. ones with attack rolls, like rays/orbs) can be used if you attack their square, but you have 50% miss chance with that route. You can also place area effects such that the target will be affected.

Ravens_cry
2010-12-23, 11:58 AM
Oriental flavour is just that, flavour. You can make anything whatever flavour you want.

Psyren
2010-12-23, 12:07 PM
Correct, and in fact the feats enabled by psionics are far closer to wuxia than traditional D&D magic is. (Harnessing ki and all that.)

kyoryu
2010-12-23, 12:10 PM
Why not just use the rules as normal, and play as "blind" when not in combat? That'd be pretty close to what you're describing.

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-23, 07:35 PM
Why not just use the rules as normal, and play as "blind" when not in combat? That'd be pretty close to what you're describing.

an interesting thought, i like it, but i dont think the dm would go for situational blindness

as for which psion, i like the egoist the best. it just seems like the best choice for a samurai-style gish. the more i think about this build, the more i really like it. it has lots of protection options, and as an egoist it has plenty of fighting options. not to mention regular psion powers

[edit]
i know what youre going to say already psyren, but what if i were to take 1 level of iajutsu master? weapon finesse katana and int to ac would be pretty cool, but then id be stuck being unarmored. weapon finesse would also be good if i were to take the 2 weapon fighting tree. part of my wants to go archery combat style and use a composite greatbow though. ranged seems to be the best choice for this build because of a lower hit point total. have any opinions on that? lose that 9th level power

SylvanPrincess
2010-12-24, 02:01 AM
[edited cuz im a bonehead and double posted again]