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Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 02:22 PM
Hey Playground, happy holidays to all. I hope you're feeling well this time of year. :smallsmile:

I've been working on a new system of my own, and I've been having a bit of trouble really nailing things down. A bit of writer's block, I suppose. So I ask you, what are some questions to ask myself/answer while designing a new fantasy-style tabletop RPG? :smallconfused:

I have a lot of basics down, it's just that I'm unsure where to go from here or how to flesh things out. I can provide any details possible, if necessary.

Xefas
2010-12-24, 03:15 PM
I highly suggest this podcast episode (http://frontrowcrew.com/geeknights/20100727/luke-and-jared-on-rpgs/), which is an interview with Luke Crane and Jared Sorensen (two of the most, and possibly the most, successful indie RPG makers) on the nature of RPGs, what makes RPGs good, and how to make a good RPG. There are also some silly tangents, and much swearing.

I know that somewhere on the net, the two of them have a series of podcasts where they go through the actual process of designing an RPG and, in the end, come up with a finished product. I'm kind of in a hurry right now, but I'll look for the link later, if you want.

Here is another game design podcast episode (http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?p=874) by them, which I plan to listen to tonight, but have not already, so I apologize if the quality is worse than the one linked above (which I have listened to). And now I'm off to cook stuff...

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 03:32 PM
I highly suggest this podcast episode (http://frontrowcrew.com/geeknights/20100727/luke-and-jared-on-rpgs/), which is an interview with Luke Crane and Jared Sorensen (two of the most, and possibly the most, successful indie RPG makers) on the nature of RPGs, what makes RPGs good, and how to make a good RPG. There are also some silly tangents, and much swearing.

I know that somewhere on the net, the two of them have a series of podcasts where they go through the actual process of designing an RPG and, in the end, come up with a finished product. I'm kind of in a hurry right now, but I'll look for the link later, if you want.

Here is another game design podcast episode (http://www.thewalkingeye.com/?p=874) by them, which I plan to listen to tonight, but have not already, so I apologize if the quality is worse than the one linked above (which I have listened to). And now I'm off to cook stuff...

:smallbiggrin: Thank you very much! I'll definitely give them a listen. Again, thank you, and good luck with that cooking! :smallsmile:

Xefas
2010-12-24, 06:50 PM
Mmm, dinner was good. Also, as a disclaimer, Jared Sorensen is a massive jerkface. He hasn't enough tact to fill his little toe, which really caused me to reflexively disagree with him at first, simply on the principle of not liking *******s. However, once I realized that it's just how he is, and started digesting what he was saying from a less bias perspective, he made a lot of sense.

The first podcast I linked to (Geeknights) also has a few other hidden goldmines of game design philosophy hidden in the archives. In addition, the hosts do a few convention panels about game design, which you might be able to find on youtube or similar. If you can find the panel "Beyond Dungeons and Dragons", that might be a good starting place.

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 06:59 PM
Mmm, dinner was good. Also, as a disclaimer, Jared Sorensen is a massive jerkface. He hasn't enough tact to fill his little toe, which really caused me to reflexively disagree with him at first, simply on the principle of not liking *******s. However, once I realized that it's just how he is, and started digesting what he was saying from a less bias perspective, he made a lot of sense.

The first podcast I linked to (Geeknights) also has a few other hidden goldmines of game design philosophy hidden in the archives. In addition, the hosts do a few convention panels about game design, which you might be able to find on youtube or similar. If you can find the panel "Beyond Dungeons and Dragons", that might be a good starting place.

Alright, thanks. I'm only about halfway through the first one, due to having a rather in-depth and meaningful discussion about my system on another board. (on 4chan, no less! Yes, I'm serious. :smalleek: ) But so far, I agree. Game systems SHOULD allow players to make meaningful decisions, and have consequences for them. But none of this is really crunch stuff, so far. Which is what I'm mostly stuck on.

Mulletmanalive
2010-12-24, 07:23 PM
There is, i suppose, a difference between designing a game and a game system.

I've designed only games, not a system from the ground up [like GURPS or FUDGE, i.e. intended to be universal], so I can only comment on that.

My questions were basically:

1- What's the minimum I can do to be effective?

2- Do I really need a new way of doing that, or can it be based on something extant?

3- How closely tied to the setting/implied game style do I want this to be

4- What is my absolute basic mechanic

That sounds like jibberish but it basically sums it up. Here are my two real examples:

Heart's End:
This was a complete integrated setting/system; they're not really seperable. The basic mechanics were originally based on the TSR system but I traded down to a point buy skill and talent system to increase the modularity [something my players hated as they prefered the "a=a" application of 2e] and to increase options.

There were a selection of new designs included but it wasn't new or inovative but those who have come to the game cold have liked it, albeit with a steep learning curve [same complaint as GURPS in general]. It's also really setting specific so it's almost impossible to use it to play anything other than that.

Neverwere:
This was one of those ideas that just span out. The game was utterly stupid in premise but was surprisingly playable.

The whole thing grew from being very tired and reading a PVP strip where they joked about the Lost RPG being just random encounter tables.

The game is the players sharing a truly bizarre dream consisting of a set of 1d100 random encounter tables filled with really wierd stuff and a trio of stats to allow them to manipulate things.

d20 above your score to attack in that field, d20 below your score to defend in that field and your last roll is your new score...

Really no more sophisticated than All Out Of Bubblegum crossed with the cards from Dix It, but it was immensely playable if you could get into the odd mindset needed.




Sorry, not sure if that illustrates how my four questions actually came into it, but trust me, they did.

My most recent project was basically just "let's take the fastest resolution system i can find [D&D in this case] and modify it to make it not appauling" so i can't comment.

Xefas
2010-12-24, 07:27 PM
Well, before starting on crunch, I'd say you should figure out whether you want a "Good Roleplaying Game" or a "Good Game" that can also have roleplaying.

The latter requires entirely different crunch than the former. The latter is going to concern itself with making the math of the game interesting and balanced. Take World of Warcraft for example - the developers are focused on making "5 damage" or "2 damage + 1 damage every second for 4 seconds" or "3 damage, and your next hit does an additional 2.5 damage" engaging. D&D also tries to do this with "+5 attack bonus for 1d8+5", "+2/+2 attack bonus for 1d6+1 each", or "2 automatic damage in an area" engaging. Exalted too, with "10 dice" or "5 dice and 2 successes" or "8 dice and its a mote cheaper" or whatever. These all try to be Good Games, and you can even roleplay in them.

The former doesn't emphasize that sort of thing as much. The crunch should make the roleplaying interesting, rather than the math. In Mouse Guard, when a player is saying to himself "I could forsake my character's beliefs, and make him out to be a hypocrite so that he can make life easy for himself, OR I could play to his beliefs, he can stand strong, and totally screw himself over, but get some artha for it" that's good roleplaying mechanics. The mechanics propel you into interesting roleplaying situations - what mechanics actually decide the outcome of those situations isn't as important. You can roll a couple dice; whatever. The point is to get to the next interesting roleplaying situation, not do math for 2 hours.

One of the greatest strengths for one of the former types of games is the idea of "Losing should be fun". In Exalted, if you're not a warrior type character, and you get into a fight and lose, you're probably going to die. Which isn't fun. In Mouse Guard, if you're not a warrior type character, and you get into a fight and lose, your character instead faces the consequences of not being a warrior - without dying. If he dies, then there's no opportunity for him to be in an interesting roleplaying situation. While alive, he has to contemplate what he lost, and what his non-warrior beliefs are worth.

Basically, if the threat of death is important to You: The Player, then you're playing a Game and roleplaying in it, rather than playing a Roleplaying Game.

So, don't even think about "combat" or "magic" or whatever, until you've figured out how you'll use the mechanics to launch your players into interesting roleplaying. Assuming you actually want to make an "RPG" and not "A game that people label as an RPG because it has leveling and experience".

Strudel110
2010-12-24, 07:56 PM
Make sure it's fun! If a rule would slow the game or ruin the mood don't add it. What sort of system have you considered? D20, D10, D100, D6? That's a good thing to know if you're working on crunch rather than fluff. Is your system class-based or classless? What about multiclassing? Ask yourself these questions.

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 08:26 PM
You all make good points. I'm unsure how to answer all these questions, but my system is supposed to feel like.. A myth, I guess. One with good action, mysterious old things, interactions with the gods, all that good stuff that make a myth a myth. Gilgamesh, the Odyssey, 1001 Arabian Nights, all those that fit into that wide category. That's what I'm going for. Pure fantasy. Ranging from the gritty grimdark lives of mortals to the epic clashes of the gods. All that.

Mortals are at the greatest risk of "dying", because, inherntly, of what they are. Nearly powerless. But also because in this setting, when Mortals "die", their souls are trapped in the broken or otherwise useless bodies, unless released by a Champion or God-tier being.

Characters, as they rise to power, can take the path of Empathy and fight to keep their hearts, or fall down the path of Apathy and lose touch with what it means to be Mortal, gaining more power, but at a cost. Eventually, they lose their hearts and become NPCs.

My system is classless. Your race and abilities (known as Glories and Faults) are what define who you are and what you can do. D20 based, for now. But things aren't set enough in stone to really say anything yet.

I feel that if I build the crunch and put the fluff and setting in place, the roleplaying will follow at the table. At least, that's what I've seen from experience.

Xefas
2010-12-24, 09:44 PM
I feel that if I build the crunch and put the fluff and setting in place, the roleplaying will follow at the table. At least, that's what I've seen from experience.

The problem is that this applies to everything.

Alright, here's the premise. Everyone is a rising star in the financial world. With some good investments, and a network of valuable connections, your characters have found a ripe new territory with plenty of cheap land to buy up. Riding in with $1500 dollars to your name and an implacable drive for greatness, you will forge a legendary Monopoly or die trying.

Featuring a classless d6 based system that incorporates a dynamic resource mechanic in which one must spend money to make money, creating an atmosphere of high risk. Will you be the social butterfly, openly trading favors with others, or the ruthless tyrant, attacking the other player's resource pools directly at every opportunity?

Don't forget to write up at least a 2 page backstory detailing how you acquired your starting funds and what you plan to use your money for once you've become rich and famous. Include a personality and appearance breakdown.

Roleplay will simply follow.

In Monopoly.

Any game can have roleplay "simply follow". A good roleplaying game drives the roleplaying. It facilitates it at every opportunity and enriches it for the players. It creates a fertile ground for it, and melds its every mechanic into the roleplaying to create an immersive experience. This is what you should be striving for. Countless awesome settings spring up on the internet every day, and are quickly forgotten. Countless tactical dice related games spring up on the internet every day, and are quickly forgotten. If you want something that will be remembered, that will actually be different and worth the effort and maybe even remembered, you need to give an experience that no one else can. And given the severe lack of good roleplaying games out there, it's probably your best bet.

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 10:47 PM
-snip-

:smallconfused: Considering I've never played Monopoly before, it took me a bit to figure out what you were getting at.. Still, I'd play the hell out of RP Monopoly.

...Regardless, yes, I believe I understand your point.

I'm trying to meld fluff and crunch, having the crunch occur because of the fluff, instead of independent from it. I know, not exactly what you mean, but I think it's a step in the right direction.

I want my game to feel like you're writing or playing out an epic tale together, not just kinda rolling dice at a table and clearing modules one after another, y'know? I.. Dunno how to get across what I mean, exactly.

I think I'm getting what you're getting at, but I can't help but feel I'm missing something..

Should I perhaps give an overview of what I have so far, show how I'm trying to integrate RP into things? :smallconfused:

stormywaters
2010-12-24, 10:59 PM
4CHAN! No way! What's your game called? I downloaded a game from there, but lost the files!!

PM me with info, or a download and I would love to help with it in any way I can!!

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 11:00 PM
4CHAN! No way! What's your game called? I downloaded a game from there, but lost the files!!

PM me with info, or a download and I would love to help with it in any way I can!!

:smallbiggrin: Woah, hold your horses, friend. I haven't put together most of the abilities yet, let alone the entire rulebook. Sorry to disappoint.

stormywaters
2010-12-24, 11:04 PM
Oh my mistake. I thought you were looking to collaborate on the project. Sorry!

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-24, 11:09 PM
Oh my mistake. I thought you were looking to collaborate on the project. Sorry!

Ah, yeah, nah. My apologies for making it seem that way. I'm trying to keep this as mostly a one-man thing. But thanks a lot for the interest. :smallsmile:

Anyways, I'd welcome any questions or requests to put info up. If anything, they force me to make up and commit to things on the fly. :smalltongue:

Mulletmanalive
2010-12-25, 06:16 AM
Xefas' excellent comments in post #7 are basically the same as my question 3.

It usually, in practice, boils down to "Action points, yay or nay?" unless you're going for a Wushu style of thing, which is a narrative game, rather than a true roleplaying game [in a conventional RPG you can't alter the environment on a whim...]

Also, Merry Christmas...

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-25, 06:42 AM
Xefas' excellent comments in post #7 are basically the same as my question 3.

It usually, in practice, boils down to "Action points, yay or nay?" unless you're going for a Wushu style of thing, which is a narrative game, rather than a true roleplaying game [in a conventional RPG you can't alter the environment on a whim...]

Also, Merry Christmas...

:smallbiggrin: Merry christmas.

I AM doing an action points-type thing, for what it counts. "Fighting Spirit" is the name so far. It a resource stat, similar to HP, in that you 'black out' when you run out, but spending it allows you to do all sorts of things, from changing your initiative (Which is important!), to combining your attacks with others in order to pump up your damage, to "hey, I need to break the rules to make things work now. Spending some of this". It's.. Vague, I know, but that's why I'm still working on it.

Rikandur Azebol
2010-12-25, 01:06 PM
Epic Hero game style, huh ? Starting from mortal ... well, for starters I would like to ask You how easy is for a mortal to die in Your world ? Are they helpless targets like in many games ? Or they can throw their weight around a bit, when they actually try ?

This is one of the questions I had to ask myself when I desgned my own setting. As usual my fluff is mostly done, and I break up with mechanics. :smalltongue:

As for the Legends ... chmm, perhaps You would want to start from something simple, as crossroad of sorts. What kind of world Your "World" is ? Is it an Fairytale type ? A pseudo-Mythological like Exalted ? An D&D feel like world ?

For example, were it a setting that favors Hardcore Mythological things like, for example, Greek myths or Gilgamesh epos ... I would suggest harsh mechanics for the players. At first when they are young and untrained well, the first trials shall shape up their PC's characters. What kind of person they are/will be. For example:

Father took his two eldest sons to the forest and told them they will get their names here and became men, and asked them what they want take with themselves ? One of them took a knife, another took some food. Two boys were left in the forest, and they met a wolf. Boy with the knife cut the wolf, and declared that he became a man by defeating the beast with only knife !

His starting Virtue became Valor and later he developed his Might. Became a fighter, prone to violence.

The second boy took pity on the wolf, and shared his food with the animal nursing it back to health. He returned home and calmly took the taunts of his peers.

His starting Virtue became Temperance and later he developed his Insight. Became a druid, prone to looking down on rash people.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-12-25, 01:36 PM
Personally, I'd decide on just how in-depth you want the mechanics to be. One of the chores I'm having to go through in the system I'm working on is writing out things like food, water and rest needed per day to go without penalties, and then I have the Advanced Weapons and Armour section to write (I like the idea, but tightening and re-tightening wording, researching arms and armour for their strengths and weaknesses, just for the sake of more realism? It can seem like all work, no reward at times. That reminds me, I need to remove some things from the Basic W&A section, weapons breaking is not going to be a problem experienced in the basic rules unless something specifically causes it, nor is not being able to wield a weapon because it's too heavy), all because I decided early on that I was going to provide rules to allow a loose, quick playstyle or an in-depth, tactical playstyle depending on the user. This means I have rather a lot of work, and even the Basic ruleset has quite a lot in it.

Linked to that, decide on what playstyle(s) you want to appeal to. A hack-and-slash, kick-down-the-door style is going to be much less strict on food and water per day than a survival horror game is, and a wilderness survival game, fighting the elements rather than other characters, more so still.

If you think you have some good rules, run a few mental tests. They'll be biased, but so what? Ask your friends to do so if necessary. Think of a tale or film or something that is in the same style as what you want to represent, and try to stat the situation (or character) from the media you chose using your rules. If it works, great. If it takes too long (and I use a subjective term here for a reason, different playstyles have different measures of what is and is not "too long"), doesn't match up or is otherwise awkward then try a few more. If you keep getting the same problem then you may need to tweak things, either your goal or your method.

Remember to ask "is this necessary?". I often don't, and it means I have pages and pages of material, and less than one is dedicated to the focus of the game (not a good thing, at all).

This is as much advice to myself as you (and I'm sure I need it more :smallredface:), but I hope it helps, at least a little. *I wonder if I should ask for help with my own system? It'll probably be forgotten because of schoolwork, but I can ask nicely to add to my thread if it goes over the thread-necro' limit. On the other hand again, I've already almost abandoned two projects (don't worry, Unleashed, you will have flavour soon eventually at some point maybe!). Decisions, decisions.*

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-25, 02:17 PM
Mortals can kick butt when they try, yeah. As a PC, you have Glories- Blessings from the gods, declaring you Chosen- that would really help you stay a step ahead of whatever's coming for you. However, combat is far more unforgiving to Mortals, due to lack of powerful and plentiful healing and strong defenses and such. The best way to play a Mortal, I'd think, would be to, as the saying goes, kick reason to the curb, and do the impossible. :smallcool: That's what Fighting Spirit is for. The bonuses and help it gives are way more awesome when you're Mortal, the same way a +1 enhancement bonus is super sweet for a level 1 D&D character.

My world is going to be.. How to put it.. I guess Mythological works, yeah. a "core" world where all Myths, Religions, Legends, and Fairy Tales were conceived. It's got a gritty, fatal, grimdark level below all the shiny "glory and fame!" stuff. Mortals start out entrenched in the grim reality of the world, gradually learning more and more about the big picture. Champions have seen what the grimdark is like, and rise above that. Most Gods are so far removed from the world that they only understand the facets they control, rather than see everything- There are very few, if any, "omiscient" Gods.

In terms of entertainment media, anime (Which, in all honesty, this world is inspired by), comics, all that, Mortal tier is where things like Evangelion, pre-Teppelin (Alright, a little earlier) Gurren-Lagann, King of Bandits Jing, and Final Fantasy:Unlimited would fall into. Most things, really. Champion tier is where you start getting things like Berserk, Gurren-Lagann post Simon's 'rebirth', Power Rangers, and characters like Dr. Manhattan. Godhood, I can only think of the end of TTGL to represent, where you care little for physics, or, often, even the rules of the game.


I don't want my crunch to be TOO in-depth, bogged down with micro-managing things like ammo, food, and water (though a low-level Mortal game might want to..). I'm keeping powers broad in scope, to allow for a wider range of characters.

Gameplay will vary between tiers, I'd think. But not too wildly. Mortality would foster more social stuff than the other tiers, with short, brutal combat. Championship(-hood?) would entail more "ROW, ROW, FIGHT THE POWER!", owing to far superior combat prowess, increased survivability, and all that. God-tier games would be on a much broader scale, which I'm a bit fuzzy on, myself. You could either go combat-heavy and start hurling galaxies at the ultimate evil, or use your superior insight to uncover the truth of the world before there were gods, negotiate the twisting labyrinth of the Netherworld Puzzle, or simply create worlds.

I'm trying to go for a system that can fit anything "heroic", I suppose. I understand I might be trying to do too much. The majority of the system, however, will be focusing on characters of the Champion tier. At least for now.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-12-25, 02:34 PM
-snip to the point-

Sounds great to me.

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-25, 03:16 PM
Sounds great to me.

Hah, yeah, my apologies, I get long-winded on subjects I'm passionate about. :smalltongue:

But thank you kindly. And your advice was helpful.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-12-25, 03:51 PM
Hah, yeah, my apologies, I get long-winded on subjects I'm passionate about. :smalltongue:

But thank you kindly. And your advice was helpful.

Oh, no apology needed. I prefer seeing it all and chipping my way through as I feel inclined to over having it brief and wanting more detail. I just snipped it because there's no need to look over the same post twice just to see what litttle I had to say (no matter how good the post in question is).

And I'm glad I could help.

Mattarias, King.
2010-12-25, 04:07 PM
Oh, no apology needed. I prefer seeing it all and chipping my way through as I feel inclined to over having it brief and wanting more detail. I just snipped it because there's no need to look over the same post twice just to see what litttle I had to say (no matter how good the post in question is).

And I'm glad I could help.

:smallsmile: Ah, yes, of course.

Now, I'm unsure if all that really hit on what Xefas and the rest were going towards, though. I have the fluff, I have the dynamics, I just... Don't really have IT. That thing that sets it apart from every other similar RPG, that thing that makes it memorable. Is it a fluff thing? A crunch thing? I dunno.
It's a question I must answer myself, I suppose.

That's what I'm stuck on, mostly.. :smallconfused: A weird form of writer's block, I suppose.