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nealpb
2010-12-24, 03:11 PM
Yes Iím going to use the word
Iím Assuming that they trained you in your class with wooden weapons so you can get the fell the weapon before get the steel ones. I know this is a long shot. Iíve seen no one use rules about this (wooden weapons) has any one home rule wooden weapons or training weapons?

mootoall
2010-12-24, 03:16 PM
Yes Iím going to use the word
Iím Assuming that they trained you in your class with wooden weapons so you can get the fell the weapon before get the steel ones. I know this is a long shot. Iíve seen no one use rules about this (wooden weapons) has any one home rule wooden weapons or training weapons?

I'd guess they've either got the stats of an appropriately sized club, or they only deal nonlethal damage ...

TheStillWind
2010-12-24, 03:18 PM
I think that most wooden training weapons can be simulated by treating them as a club of their size. If you add padding make it do nonlethal damage with a -1 to attack. For daggers... I have always used dull flat pieces of wood with chalk dipped on the sides to show cuts. There are blunted, padded arrows in races of the wild, I think.

But really you cant go wrong with clubs and nonlethal damage.

Xyk
2010-12-24, 03:20 PM
I'd make it so they function as clubs for all purposes except feats like Weapon Focus/Specialization etc. So if you had weapon focus in longsword and had a longsword training sword, you would get that bonus.

Keinnicht
2010-12-24, 03:40 PM
They probably only deal nonlethal damage. I mean, a club is designed to screw people up, a blunt wooden sword isn't going to do much worse than bruise unless it's swung by someone incredibly strong.

boomwolf
2010-12-24, 03:45 PM
You would have wondered, but a boken (sp? wooden katana for training) can 1-hit kill with a good strike.

Wooden weapons are not like what kids make out of leftover sticks and string, they CAN be all-out weapons capable of actual combat. remember, quite a few DnD "regular" weapons ARE wooden. (clubs, quarterstaff, etc..)

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-24, 04:57 PM
I actually own a couple bokken, and I can assure you that they are quite sturdy as far as sword-shaped clubs go. I have no doubt that a suitably trained swordsman could break bones with one.

As far as I can tell, you can just use the normal stats for the weapon, except change the damage type to bludgeoning. While practice sparring, it can probably be assumed that you and your partner are taking the -4 penalty to do nonlethal damage.

EDIT: Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAX-heCjkjw) is a pretty good seen from the movie The Last Samurai that shows a trained swordsman striking for nonlethal damage with a wooden sword.

Greenish
2010-12-24, 06:27 PM
I'd guess they've either got the stats of an appropriately sized club, or they only deal nonlethal damage ...Sap and truncheon are non-lethal weapons, light and one-handed respectively. They should be enough for modeling practise weapons.

Mastikator
2010-12-24, 06:39 PM
Wood is lighter and softer than steel. Not as good at being sharp since it would swiftly lose its sharpness. Blunt would be just fine, perhaps a bit weaker since it's lighter.
Actually all weapons benefit from being heavy in terms of how forceful the attack is, so all weapons made from wood would be inferior in terms of damage, but superior in terms of swiftness than if made from steel. So they'd count as a category lighter, but deal less damage. A wooden longsword could benefit from weapon finesse moreso than power attack imo.

nealpb
2010-12-24, 08:48 PM
I'd make it so they function as clubs for all purposes except feats like Weapon Focus/Specialization etc. So if you had weapon focus in longsword and had a longsword training sword, you would get that bonus.

that what i was going to use


As far as I can tell, you can just use the normal stats for the weapon, except change the damage type to bludgeoning. While practice sparring, it can probably be assumed that you and your partner are taking the -4 penalty to do nonlethal damage.

EDIT: Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAX-heCjkjw) is a pretty good seen from the movie The Last Samurai that shows a trained swordsman striking for nonlethal damage with a wooden sword.

thats what i was aiming for B.S good move:)


Wood is lighter and softer than steel. Not as good at being sharp since it would swiftly lose its sharpness. Blunt would be just fine, perhaps a bit weaker since it's lighter.
Actually all weapons benefit from being heavy in terms of how forceful the attack is, so all weapons made from wood would be inferior in terms of damage, but superior in terms of swiftness than if made from steel. So they'd count as a category lighter, but deal less damage. A wooden longsword could benefit from weapon finesse moreso than power attack imo.

lighter weapon true but like the move you time wight will not be a facter. for the damage D lower then what it should be like longsword 1d8 wooden longsword 1d6? or lower? weapon finesse no like Xyk sayed i like that batter

Greenish
2010-12-24, 09:09 PM
EDIT: Here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAX-heCjkjw) is a pretty good seen from the movie The Last Samurai that shows a trained swordsman striking for nonlethal damage with a wooden sword.There's a pretty good demonstration on why you'd want to two-hand the weapon even when you have EWP: bastard sword. :smallamused:

Jack DeCoeur
2010-12-24, 09:29 PM
The problem here, as I see it, and I realise I may be veering at least partially off topic, but you don't want to obsolete the 'Merciful' weapon enhancement, which, granted, still allows the weapon to deal lethal damage, but also, once a command word is spoken, allows the weapon to deal non-lethal damage.

As such, any weapon that is considered a 'practice' weapon in order to deal non-lethal damage should deal less damage than an equivalent weapon that is designed for lethal combat. At least one dice less, perhaps, as has been mentioned with a further -1 to damage perhaps? Maybe more?

Xuc Xac
2010-12-25, 12:35 AM
Wood is lighter and softer than steel. Not as good at being sharp since it would swiftly lose its sharpness. Blunt would be just fine, perhaps a bit weaker since it's lighter.
Actually all weapons benefit from being heavy in terms of how forceful the attack is, so all weapons made from wood would be inferior in terms of damage, but superior in terms of swiftness than if made from steel. So they'd count as a category lighter, but deal less damage. A wooden longsword could benefit from weapon finesse moreso than power attack imo.

Wood is lighter than steel, but wooden swords have much thicker "blades" so the weight of the weapon is the same. Wooden weapons are used to simulate the reach and weight of a real weapon, not the exact shape. What would be the point of practicing with a sword that weighed much less than the real thing?

There are a few reasons to use wooden swords instead of steel for training, but I don't think "lesser impact" is one of them. Wooden swords don't slice, so you don't have to worry about cutting yourself or your sparring partner when touching the blade. I'm not talking about striking. I mean that when you do something clumsy or careless, you won't accidentally slice open a finger on the blade or stick the point into your leg. Another advantage of a wooden weapon is that it doesn't rust: you don't have to clean it and oil it after handling. They are also very cheap and expendable. You don't want to practice with an expensive masterwork blade and cause damage to it by hitting the ground or a wall while you're still getting used to its reach. Another consideration is the legality: a wooden sword doesn't count as a sword, so you can train even when owning a sword is prohibited.

Some traditions don't bother with wooden weapons at all. In the system I studied, they gave you a steel weapon and made you practice the various movements alone against an imaginary opponent until you developed enough control and precision to do practice drills with a live partner without accidentally killing them (because, as they say, there's no one more dangerous than a beginner).

nealpb
2010-12-26, 01:21 PM
what would be good house rules to that?

in some places that true using the real thing for training how about the other half of the world they use wood or other weapons to train in

kyoryu
2010-12-26, 01:35 PM
what would be good house rules to that?

in some places that true using the real thing for training how about the other half of the world they use wood or other weapons to train in

I'd say have the wooden weapon use the same skills as the real one, and do somewhere near half damage - it's not designed as a killing weapon, but trust me, they can still do some real damage. You don't really want to get hit with, for instance, a bokken.

Loki Eremes
2010-12-26, 07:51 PM
bah,
i think its simple.

treat, lets say, a WOODEN BASTARD SWORD as a 1d10 sword that deal NON lethal damage. At NO AR PENALTY

Sure, it still deals damage but it wont kill you.

a wooden greatsword as a 2d6 non lethal,
a wooden morning star as a non lethal weapon without spikes, and so on.




I think that most wooden training weapons can be simulated by treating them as a club of their size. If you add padding make it do nonlethal damage with a -1 to attack. For daggers... I have always used dull flat pieces of wood with chalk dipped on the sides to show cuts. There are blunted, padded arrows in races of the wild, I think.

But really you cant go wrong with clubs and nonlethal damage.


I dont think that padding them will make them more difficult to use.

And for daggers thats a great idea, because they are to small and quick to see when it hits.

AslanCross
2010-12-26, 08:16 PM
It really depends what kind of wood the training weapon is made of. If it's made of something light like rattan, it's not likely to inflict lethal damage. Rattan (http://www.gungfu.com/htm-weapons/filipino-weapons/weapons-filipino-weapons-escrima-sticks-rattan-philippine-arnis.htm) is light, flexible and its fibers deform over time from repeated impact.

Bamboo, as used in kendo shinai, is going to hurt a lot more, though I'm not sure how lethal it could be.

A wooden sword made of hardwood like kamagong (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamagong) can probably inflict serious injury or death in an expert's hands. I own such a bokken; the "blade" is about an inch thick.

ericgrau
2010-12-26, 10:55 PM
A good swordsman could break your bones with a wooden sword. He could also cut you in half with a steel one. I'd reduce the damage a bit because of that and since training weapons aren't as heavy as clubs. Going down a size category or two in damage as with using stone sling bullets instead of metal could work. And your high strength melee will still be able to do some serious damage if he wants. What you really need are some kind of mechanics for holding back.

unosarta
2010-12-26, 11:28 PM
A good swordsman could break your bones with a wooden sword. He could also cut you in half with a steel one. I'd reduce the damage a bit because of that and since training weapons aren't as heavy as clubs. Going down a size category or two in damage as with using stone sling bullets instead of metal could work. And your high strength melee will still be able to do some serious damage if he wants. What you really need are some kind of mechanics for holding back.

Mechanics for holding back, you say? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm)

Bottom of the page, "Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage".


Honestly, having seen and participated in a little broadsword fighting, using either full wooden blades and metal hilts, and shinai blades and metal hilts (with historically accurate weight >_>), I can say that you could probably deal the same amount of damage with a wooden broadsword as with a metal one. Maybe slightly less. In the hands of a trained warrior? That blow to the head will kill you just as surely with a metal blade as with a wooden one. Although, thinking about it, if one were not versed with the tactics of using a wooden blade (rather than going for thin joints which can be cut through easier, going for large areas with internal organs or weak spots would be more optimal), they would probably be less able to effectively use the weapon.

Loki Eremes
2010-12-27, 04:58 AM
A good swordsman could break your bones with a wooden sword. He could also cut you in half with a steel one. I'd reduce the damage a bit because of that and since training weapons aren't as heavy as clubs. Going down a size category or two in damage as with using stone sling bullets instead of metal could work. And your high strength melee will still be able to do some serious damage if he wants. What you really need are some kind of mechanics for holding back.



Mechanics for holding back, you say? (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/injuryanddeath.htm)

Bottom of the page, "Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage".


Honestly, having seen and participated in a little broadsword fighting, using either full wooden blades and metal hilts, and shinai blades and metal hilts (with historically accurate weight >_>), I can say that you could probably deal the same amount of damage with a wooden broadsword as with a metal one. Maybe slightly less. In the hands of a trained warrior? That blow to the head will kill you just as surely with a metal blade as with a wooden one. Although, thinking about it, if one were not versed with the tactics of using a wooden blade (rather than going for thin joints which can be cut through easier, going for large areas with internal organs or weak spots would be more optimal), they would probably be less able to effectively use the weapon.


Remember we are talking about "stundents"
Sure, a lvl 20....no, a lvl 10 fighter could do some serious damage, even with a broomstick.

Just dont get complicated and start wondering about "what a master could do?" or the materials the weapons are made of.
The thread name is "TRAINING weapon or wooden weapons". So...they are used by lvl 1 folks top.


Not to mention that a normal human/person in the world had avarage score of 10 at their ability scores.
Strong people have around 12~14 STR (+1;+2)
EXTREMLY STRONG ones have 16~18 STR (+1;+2)
[[ just look at the core book at the table in page 8 ]]


Only adventurers got those stats.
The world is made for normal people...



bah,
i think its simple.

treat, lets say, a WOODEN BASTARD SWORD as a 1d10 sword that deal NON lethal damage. At NO AR PENALTY

Sure, it still deals damage but it wont kill you.

a wooden greatsword as a 2d6 non lethal,
a wooden morning star as a non lethal weapon without spikes, and so on.


I dont think that padding them will make them more difficult to use.


If you want to deal less damage with them padding them is a good idea, but only for big weapons, such as a greatsword.



want a system? lets create it
- "weapon pad": reduce weapon damage by half (rounded down). STR mod isnt affected. All damage dealt is now considered Non-lethal.




In this way damage will be greatly reduced and will serve for the purpose of training. Note that i decided to halve the damage beacause obviously bigger things do bigger damage.

unosarta
2010-12-27, 11:51 AM
Remember we are talking about "stundents"
Sure, a lvl 20....no, a lvl 10 fighter could do some serious damage, even with a broomstick.

Just dont get complicated and start wondering about "what a master could do?" or the materials the weapons are made of.
The thread name is "TRAINING weapon or wooden weapons". So...they are used by lvl 1 folks top.


Not to mention that a normal human/person in the world had avarage score of 10 at their ability scores.
Strong people have around 12~14 STR (+1;+2)
EXTREMLY STRONG ones have 16~18 STR (+1;+2)
[[ just look at the core book at the table in page 8 ]]


Only adventurers got those stats.
The world is made for normal people...

People routinely get bones broken with baseball bats, and enough force to the head will kill you. Yes, a baseball bat (which is wooden) and a wooden sword are not the same, but the same principle extends to this scenario as well. Note; I am not talking about training weapons here. If I were, I would likely have not said "wooden" and instead said training. A wooden weapon wouldn't necessarily be a good training weapon, depending on the user. However, saying that something is wooden, and therefore incapable of killing is patently false.

Normal humans (which would probably also mean current era humans, which most townsfolk are partially modeled after) have a strength of 10, and can kill someone with a baseball bat (it is entirely (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19192869/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/) possible (http://www.ctpostchronicle.com/articles/2010/12/02/news/doc4cf798ffebd5a260925166.txt)). Therefore, it is not incomprehensible for someone to kill another person, even with mediocre training, with a wooden weapon.

nealpb
2010-12-27, 12:37 PM
Note; I am not talking about training weapons here. If I were, I would likely have not said "wooden" and instead said training..

true but .... using real life here.. all i see is wooden weapons being use a trainig weapons its cheper (cost). yes you can use any thing as a training weapons. in some parts of the world wood cant be find or wood cost more then steel.

Loki Eremes
2010-12-27, 12:43 PM
People routinely get bones broken with baseball bats, and enough force to the head will kill you. Yes, a baseball bat (which is wooden) and a wooden sword are not the same, but the same principle extends to this scenario as well. Note; I am not talking about training weapons here. If I were, I would likely have not said "wooden" and instead said training. A wooden weapon wouldn't necessarily be a good training weapon, depending on the user. However, saying that something is wooden, and therefore incapable of killing is patently false.

Normal humans (which would probably also mean current era humans, which most townsfolk are partially modeled after) have a strength of 10, and can kill someone with a baseball bat (it is entirely (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19192869/ns/us_news-crime_and_courts/) possible (http://www.ctpostchronicle.com/articles/2010/12/02/news/doc4cf798ffebd5a260925166.txt)). Therefore, it is not incomprehensible for someone to kill another person, even with mediocre training, with a wooden weapon.


yeah, and a kid could kill you with a pencil in real world. But we re talking about D&D here. That kinda stuff dont apply in a game where you could have recieved 20 arrows in your body, piercied your vital points with a rapier, and had a barbarian cut yourself with a greatsword, and only having 1hp left, you still could jump, run, fly, and sing a disney musical.
Also Non-letal damage simply dont kill you, no matter how much damage is done.

unosarta
2010-12-27, 01:06 PM
true but .... using real life here.. all i see is wooden weapons being use a trainig weapons its cheper (cost). yes you can use any thing as a training weapons. in some parts of the world wood cant be find or wood cost more then steel.
Cost is not the same as effectiveness. I could use something with equivalent weight that is cheaper than an actual weapon because money is tight, or I could put padding (which Loki Eremes so nicely put up earlier) on a weapon, being even cheaper. Either way, it is still possible to kill someone with a wooden weapon.


yeah, and a kid could kill you with a pencil in real world. But we re talking about D&D here. That kinda stuff dont apply in a game where you could have recieved 20 arrows in your body, piercied your vital points with a rapier, and had a barbarian cut yourself with a greatsword, and only having 1hp left, you still could jump, run, fly, and sing a disney musical.
Also Non-letal damage simply dont kill you, no matter how much damage is done.

Yes. But simply because there is a precedent for impossibility does not mean that one should dissuade oneself from using realistic tools. For instance, since the rules are obviously messed up, I can say that being burned actually heals you. Does that make it realistic? No. Being realistic isn't always the goal, but what about if I wanted to play a character who did use a wooden weapon; not because it is training or because he/she doesn't want to deal lethal damage, but they simply feel more comfortable with such a weapon? Surrealism and realism are nice, but as soon as they gets in the way of a character concept for no reason at all, it is effectively moot.

I don't understand your point about nonlethal damage not killing you. I am arguing that wooden weapons can be lethal. Hell, several (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#quarterstaff) D&D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#nunchaku) weapons (as well as the Club, and Greatclub) prove my point. Therefore, we have a D&D example that proves it works, a real life example that proves it works, possible character concepts. What more do you want?

Loki Eremes
2010-12-27, 02:46 PM
Cost is not the same as effectiveness. I could use something with equivalent weight that is cheaper than an actual weapon because money is tight, or I could put padding (which Loki Eremes so nicely put up earlier) on a weapon, being even cheaper. Either way, it is still possible to kill someone with a wooden weapon.



Yes. But simply because there is a precedent for impossibility does not mean that one should dissuade oneself from using realistic tools. For instance, since the rules are obviously messed up, I can say that being burned actually heals you. Does that make it realistic? No. Being realistic isn't always the goal, but what about if I wanted to play a character who did use a wooden weapon; not because it is training or because he/she doesn't want to deal lethal damage, but they simply feel more comfortable with such a weapon? Surrealism and realism are nice, but as soon as they gets in the way of a character concept for no reason at all, it is effectively moot.

I don't understand your point about nonlethal damage not killing you. I am arguing that wooden weapons can be lethal. Hell, several (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#quarterstaff) D&D (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/weapons.htm#nunchaku) weapons (as well as the Club, and Greatclub) prove my point. Therefore, we have a D&D example that proves it works, a real life example that proves it works, possible character concepts. What more do you want?


heck, there's always something that complicates everything.
Im not arguing with you that a wooden sword is non-lethal, im arguing with you that thats not the purpose of this thread.
Nealpb asked for a training sword system. I answered it. You say a wooden sword could kill you. I say "dont get to elaborated". And this turned into a argue that involves to much realism for a game thats not realist at all.

Its always good to be realistic, but dont get complicated with stuff that dont affect rules whatsoever. I mean, at the end it will be to lvl 1 character throwing a dice to hit each other with their respective weapons :smallbiggrin:

What are you saying is right. A wooden sword like a bokken could kill you and deal lethal damage as the clubs do. But a training weapon like the ones Nealpb is looking for, like a shinai (also made of wood) will bruise you like hell (hey, youre a future tough fighter xD, endure it) but will difficulty kill you.


and for the sake of non-lethal damage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Nonlethal_Damage)
is why i answered what the thread opener asked for:


want a system? lets create it
- "weapon pad": reduce weapon damage by half (rounded down). STR mod isnt affected. All damage dealt is now considered Non-lethal.

Totally homebrew, leave it or take it xD
Hope you now understand what i tried to say

kyoryu
2010-12-27, 03:19 PM
and for the sake of non-lethal damage (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Nonlethal_Damage)
is why i answered what the thread opener asked for:


Totally homebrew, leave it or take it xD
Hope you now understand what i tried to say

And that's a great system. How it's accomplished (in-game) is secondary.

unosarta
2010-12-27, 03:26 PM
Totally homebrew, leave it or take it xD
Hope you now understand what i tried to say

I understand, and understood, and actually mentioned in my post about the padding, which is an excellent and even more cost efficient system than using wooden weapons.

nealpb
2010-12-28, 01:12 PM
about the padding, which is an excellent and even more cost efficient system than using wooden weapons.

you are assuming padding to use for trining in.



want a system? lets create it
- "weapon pad": reduce weapon damage by half (rounded down). STR mod isnt affected. All damage dealt is now considered Non-lethal.

thats nice but need more then this. feats ect?.

like loki eremes sayed

"Remember we are talking about "stundents"
Sure, a lvl 20....no, a lvl 10 fighter could do some serious damage, even with a broomstick."

a 20lvl should kick your a** with a non- or a lethal weapon

any one have other house roles or sytems out there i would like to keep my options open.

nealpb
2011-01-04, 01:40 PM
ok no more ideas?

kyoryu
2011-01-04, 02:57 PM
Part of the problem is that D&D doesn't model different "types" of damage well. It's harder, but possible, to kill someone with a blunt weapon than it is with a stabbing weapon - the type of damage it inflicts on the human body is just different.

That's the real advantage of training weapons - while they will still hurt, can still be used to subdue someone, can definitely break bones and can potentially kill, it's *harder* to kill with them unless you're trying to. Without a sharp blade or pointy end to penetrate flesh, the chance of significant damage is much, much lower. But D&D doesn't model this - at least partially because it doesn't model actual *hits* in combat, abstracting them behind hit points.

Another possible way to model use of wooden weapons is to just drop the die a notch or so (d6 to d4) to model the lack of sharp edge, and just call the training session at half hp. A wooden training weapon is at least as viable of a weapon as a club, at any rate. As far as healing - just houserule that any damage done with a training weapon in a training session heals within 5 minutes - bruises and bumps, effectively. I wouldn't worry about the subdual penalty as you don't have to avoid hitting anyone with a blade or pointy bit of the sword.

If you still want to have the possibility of training accidents, make criticals do "real" damage, but not extra damage. Alternately, have a natural 1 be a hit for "real" damage to more give the feeling that it was a mistake, and that damage wasn't intended.

Tokuhara
2011-01-04, 03:00 PM
In an Oriental Adventures campaign, I once played a Samurai (Ronin)/Iaijutsu Master who due to refusing a non-lawful order from his lord was stripped of his "real" diasho. So, he discovered a wooden katana his father used more than the metal blades (his father was highly skilled) and thus the GM said this katana counted as my "Daisho" for the class feature

The sword did equivelant damage to the normal bastard sword, but was bludgeoning instead of slashing, which made Iaijutsu strikes quite amusing when I critted with a wooden sword and the DM said his body went flying, but his head fell straight down to the dirt.