PDA

View Full Version : hmm how about negative LA?



randomhero00
2010-12-24, 10:51 PM
Such as -2 to all physical, -4 to all mental stats. BUT you get a free level of something. Could this work? Would it be balanced?

Nanoblack
2010-12-24, 10:54 PM
No.Giving free levels to anything is a very, very bad idea. Stats do not equal class levels.

GoatBoy
2010-12-24, 10:59 PM
There's a magazine race known as Xvart, I think, which has a -2 LA... but hardly looks like a fair trade, to me.

The Incarnate Construct template from Savage Species has a negative LA.

But any negative LA that could hope to be balanced would probably have to go past simple stats, to something that can't simply be made up for via raw power. Something like, say, a % chance to lose ANY action, or automatically dropping to negative hit points after taking any kind of damage. And I am already thinking of ways to get around those.

GhoulPolitician
2010-12-24, 11:00 PM
half-minotaur combined with this leads horrible things, even with the stat penalties...

Pseudolich
2010-12-24, 11:01 PM
Perhaps be limited to only one hit point, ever?

Shadowleaf
2010-12-24, 11:05 PM
There's a magazine race known as Xvart, I think, which has a -2 LA... but hardly looks like a fair trade, to me.

The Incarnate Construct template from Savage Species has a negative LA.

But any negative LA that could hope to be balanced would probably have to go past simple stats, to something that can't simply be made up for via raw power. Something like, say, a % chance to lose ANY action, or automatically dropping to negative hit points after taking any kind of damage. And I am already thinking of ways to get around those.A true munchkin would still just bypass those weaknesses, and enjoy winning the game while the rest of the group is still troubled by CR 1/3 Kobolds.

Keinnicht
2010-12-24, 11:08 PM
A true munchkin would still just bypass those weaknesses, and enjoy winning the game while the rest of the group is still troubled by CR 1/3 Kobolds.


Speaking of Kobolds, I've always thought Kobolds deserved -1 LA. Although I fixed that problem in a homebrew setting I made awhile back by making Kobolds be insanely, insanely intelligent and prone to building ray guns.

Nothing like a player's face when they come across a Kobold with 22 intelligence and steam-powered battle armor.

Salanmander
2010-12-25, 01:31 AM
This could possibly be reasonable if you gave them some racial trait along the lines of "You may never cast spells, or use spell trigger or spell completion items, oh and by the way, you can't ever lose this racial ability, even temporarily, not even to alter self or dragonborn, not even if something says you lose all racial abilities ever. period.", but with good grammar.

Shadowleaf
2010-12-25, 01:42 AM
A large penalty to mental stats might accomplish the same thing as the above. As long as the penalty is higher than the highest you might get from an equal positive LA.
But not all characters care about high mental stats. A Warlock can potentially do just as fine with 8 int, 8 wis and 8 cha, as he can with 12 int, 12 wis and 12 cha. He would probably benefit a lot more from a few Warlock levels than he would from 12 statpoints.

FelixG
2010-12-25, 01:43 AM
There's a magazine race known as Xvart, I think, which has a -2 LA... but hardly looks like a fair trade, to me.

I am pretty sure that was a typo, I have the magazine at home I will have to give it a look and get back to ya

ericgrau
2010-12-25, 01:44 AM
Dang didn't erase post in time. Basically ya theres too many caveats making it too complicated to handle or figure a high enough mental stat penalty.

arguskos
2010-12-25, 01:45 AM
I am pretty sure that was a typo, I have the magazine at home I will have to give it a look and get back to ya
It is. They're LA +0, EL -2 if I recall correctly. They most CERTAINLY are not LA -2. No such race exists, as we've exhaustively determined with similar threads over the last few years. :smallcool:

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-25, 09:55 AM
Speaking of Kobolds, I've always thought Kobolds deserved -1 LA. Although I fixed that problem in a homebrew setting I made awhile back by making Kobolds be insanely, insanely intelligent and prone to building ray guns.

Nothing like a player's face when they come across a Kobold with 22 intelligence and steam-powered battle armor.

If you use the web enhancement for Races of the Dragon, Kobolds gain 3 natural attacks and Slight Build (basically the opposite of Powerful Build), which actually makes them pretty good for a LA +0 race.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-25, 10:16 AM
Getting spells one level earlier is not worth losing a few stats in a stat you don't care about.

When I say "spells", I also mean "maneuvers", "powers", "augments", "chakra binds" and so on ad nauseum.

Nothing should ever have negative LA.

true_shinken
2010-12-25, 10:18 AM
Nothing should ever have negative LA.
But the incarnate construct template does have it. :smallamused:

Shadowleaf
2010-12-25, 10:23 AM
Getting spells one level earlier is not worth losing a few stats in a stat you don't care about.

When I say "spells", I also mean "maneuvers", "powers", "augments", "chakra binds" and so on ad nauseum.

Nothing should ever have negative LA.
I think you phrased that wrong. I believe it should be "Getting spells one level earlier is always worth losing a few stats in a stat you don't care about." :smallbiggrin:

tyckspoon
2010-12-25, 10:25 AM
But the incarnate construct template does have it. :smallamused:

Because it's designed to take a construct and turn it into a weak fleshbag. That's almost always a step down, absent Warforged shenanigans.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-25, 10:38 AM
I think you phrased that wrong. I believe it should be "Getting spells one level earlier is always worth losing a few stats in a stat you don't care about." :smallbiggrin:

That is in fact what I meant.

I blame Christmas craziness.

Ernir
2010-12-25, 10:40 AM
But the incarnate construct template does have it. :smallamused:
Yeah, but it shouldn't have it. xD

ScionoftheVoid
2010-12-25, 12:03 PM
But the incarnate construct template does have it. :smallamused:


Because it's designed to take a construct and turn it into a weak fleshbag. That's almost always a step down, absent Warforged shenanigans.

Indeed, bar Warforged (introduced some time into 3.5, with Incarnate Construct appearing in Savage Species, which I believe is in the period often referred to as 3.25), everything it could be applied to has either a rather large LA to begin with or LA: -, making it unplayable without DM homebrew. The template can be horribly abused with Warforged and Sandform (from Sandstorm) for infinite Strength (IIRC), but it can't really be blamed for that, no one expected low LA Constructs, and certainly not ones without oodles of Racial Hit Dice.

Grendus
2010-12-25, 12:14 PM
Arguably (although RAW may or may not support this), the DM could claim that warforged are already living and thus don't qualify for incarnate construct. Or you could whack them with the DMG. Whichever style you prefer.

Keinnicht
2010-12-25, 12:42 PM
If you use the web enhancement for Races of the Dragon, Kobolds gain 3 natural attacks and Slight Build (basically the opposite of Powerful Build), which actually makes them pretty good for a LA +0 race.

Slight build? What the heck does that mean? They get to use smaller weapons and have an even worse grapple penalty?

Doesn't seem like a good trait.

Scoot
2010-12-25, 12:52 PM
Slight build? What the heck does that mean? They get to use smaller weapons and have an even worse grapple penalty?

Doesn't seem like a good trait.

Kinda.


Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character.

But only if they want to. It sounds like it would be nice for Rogues and such.

Vistella
2010-12-25, 12:52 PM
Slight build? What the heck does that mean? They get to use smaller weapons and have an even worse grapple penalty?

Doesn't seem like a good trait.


Slight Build: The physical stature of kobolds lets them function in many ways as if they were one size category smaller. Whenever a kobold is subject to a size modifier or special size modifier for an opposed check (such as Hide), the kobold is treated as one size smaller if doing so is advantageous to the character. A kobold is also considered to be one size smaller when "squeezing" through a restrictive space. A kobold can use weapons designed for a creature one size smaller without penalty. However, the space and reach of a kobold remain those of a creature of their actual size. The benefits of this racial trait stack with the effects of powers, abilities, and spells that change the subject's size category.

you can hide better, you can squeeze yourself through smallest holes, etc

and you dont get a grapple penalty, unless its more beneficial for you

The Glyphstone
2010-12-25, 12:53 PM
Slight build? What the heck does that mean? They get to use smaller weapons and have an even worse grapple penalty?

Doesn't seem like a good trait.

It means they count as smaller whenever it's beneficial to them, the opposite of Powerful Build. They count as Tiny for opposed checks (like Hide), and can fit in smaller spaces without Squeezing. Normally, you can Squeeze into a space one size category smaller than you with penalties, Kobolds can Squeeze into a space one size smaller without penalties, or two sizes smaller with penalties. The ability to use smaller-than-normal weapons is pretty useless though.

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20060420a

Your 2.5-foot tall Tucker's Kobolds get even nastier when they can potentially crawl through 6-inch diameter tunnels.

EDIt: Ninja'ed, and flanked. Ouch.

Eldan
2010-12-25, 01:40 PM
Indeed, bar Warforged (introduced some time into 3.5, with Incarnate Construct appearing in Savage Species, which I believe is in the period often referred to as 3.25), everything it could be applied to has either a rather large LA to begin with or LA: -, making it unplayable without DM homebrew. The template can be horribly abused with Warforged and Sandform (from Sandstorm) for infinite Strength (IIRC), but it can't really be blamed for that, no one expected low LA Constructs, and certainly not ones without oodles of Racial Hit Dice.

There's modrons as well. I'm fairly sure there's some versions which are constructs and have LA+2 or less.

mootoall
2010-12-25, 01:45 PM
Honestly even the "crippling racial features" bit doesn't work at all to warrant negative LA. Why? Dragonborn, my friends. Dragonborn.

ScionoftheVoid
2010-12-25, 02:02 PM
There's modrons as well. I'm fairly sure there's some versions which are constructs and have LA+2 or less.

Then it just becomes WotC's lack of communication and checks for synergy, which many things suffer from. And I thought this might not qualify, oh well.

KillianHawkeye
2010-12-25, 03:22 PM
It only stops working properly when it's combined with something they didn't expect (warforged, dragonborn, etc.). An incarnate construct stone golem is perfectly fine and works as intended.

true_shinken
2010-12-25, 03:25 PM
It only stops working properly when it's combined with something they didn't expect (warforged, dragonborn, etc.). An incarnate construct stone golem is perfectly fine and works as intended.
Yeah. Even then, it's perfectly reasonable to assume incarnate construct only reduces the LA of the construct side. RAI, as well.

randomhero00
2010-12-25, 08:30 PM
Hmm, still it might be interesting to have a race with an LA reduction of 1. So no added levels. Just if you apply a template, say +2 it goes down to +1.

Obviously, munckins stay away, but for normal people this could work ok i'd think.

Chilingsworth
2010-12-25, 08:44 PM
Hmm, still it might be interesting to have a race with an LA reduction of 1. So no added levels. Just if you apply a template, say +2 it goes down to +1.

Obviously, munckins stay away, but for normal people this could work ok i'd think.

But, do munchkins stay away, ever??

ericgrau
2010-12-25, 08:48 PM
Hmm the caster / etc. part seems to be the main issue. How about "The negative LA must apply to a single class, and no class beyond the negative LA may advance the progression of any class feature of the class taken with negative LA. If you do gain levels in such a class, use the higher level of the negative LA class and the non-negative LA class(es) for the purpose of any class feature. The class gained with negative LA does not count for the purpose of multiclassing penalties."

Chilingsworth
2010-12-25, 08:53 PM
Hmm the caster / etc. part seems to be the main issue. How about "The negative LA must apply to a single class, and no class beyond the negative LA may advance the progression of any class feature of the class taken with negative LA. If you do gain levels in such a class, use the higher level of the negative LA class and the non-negative LA class(es) for the purpose of any class feature. The class gained with negative LA does not count for the purpose of multiclassing penalties."

Okay, now you're trying to give ruleslaywers aneurisms. Nice tactic, actually, but I'm not sure I understand how such a rules crevat would work.:smallconfused:

ericgrau
2010-12-25, 09:26 PM
Basically it means you can't further advance the class features of anything gained with negative LA, even using PrCs. You can start over if you want or more likely take levels in a different class. BAB, saves, and HP still stack.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-25, 09:28 PM
Okay, now you're trying to give ruleslaywers aneurisms. Nice tactic, actually, but I'm not sure I understand how such a rules crevat would work.:smallconfused:

You say this like giving rules lawyers aneurysms is a bad thing.:smallwink:

Chilingsworth
2010-12-25, 09:41 PM
You say this like giving rules lawyers aneurysms is a bad thing.:smallwink:

Oh, not at all! I'm just not sure it would work: They'd find a rules interpretation against it, or something.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-25, 09:43 PM
Oh, not at all! I'm just not sure it would work: They'd find a rules interpretation against it, or something.

More like point out that there aren't any rules for aneurysms, and even if there were, death doesn't actually impair functioning.

hamishspence
2010-12-26, 05:43 AM
There's a magazine race known as Xvart, I think, which has a -2 LA... but hardly looks like a fair trade, to me..

The magazine version of it (Dragon 339, Jan 2006) specifies a LA of +0.

I'm not sure how people got the idea that it was -2: maybe Crystalkeep wrote it up wrong?

Kaww
2010-12-26, 06:48 AM
They did write it wrong, plus all xvart has is darkvision, and loses con and str...
It is easy to see why they have "negative" LA...

Typewriter
2010-12-26, 01:08 PM
On the topic of incarnate construct, there is a construct known as a Maug(from the MM2, or possibly fiend folio?) who I believe has 2 HD, and 2 LA. Getting the stat adjustments that the Maug has for 2 HD, and 0 LA is a decent trade. If you're a smasher.

PersonMan
2010-12-26, 04:00 PM
On the topic of incarnate construct, there is a construct known as a Maug(from the MM2, or possibly fiend folio?) who I believe has 2 HD, and 2 LA. Getting the stat adjustments that the Maug has for 2 HD, and 0 LA is a decent trade. If you're a smasher.

It's in the Fiend Folio, yes.

Heliomance
2010-12-26, 06:14 PM
Dustform combined with Incarnate Construct is very useful for template stacking, to get something to Humanoid or Giant type and make it eligible for more templates.

Jack_Simth
2010-12-26, 06:43 PM
Basically it means you can't further advance the class features of anything gained with negative LA, even using PrCs. You can start over if you want or more likely take levels in a different class. BAB, saves, and HP still stack.
Workaround: Use the BAB/HP/Skills to qualify for one of the PrC's that give accelerated advancement. LA-2 for Fighter-2, follow it up with Bard-3, and go into Ur-Priest, for instance. 1st level spells at ECL 4, 2nd level spells at ECL 5, 3rd level spells at ECL 6, 4th at ECL 7 - tied with primary casters normally - 5th at ECL 8 (pulling ahead), 6th at ECL 9 (two full levels before anyone else), and it just gets worse from there - to the point of casting Miracle (although that one is a colossally bad idea with the fluff of Ur-Priest...) at ECL 12.

ericgrau
2010-12-26, 06:53 PM
But doesn't that mean Ur Priest normally gets 9th level spells at level 14? What keeps that from being a problem at LA 0? EDIT: Ah, searched. That's quite a bit of cheese. But ok:

"Class features gained before ECL 0 may not be further advanced by classes gained after ECL 0 nor vis versa. Use the higher level of the two for the purpose of class features instead. Abilities gained that are not class features - BAB, saves, HP and skills - still stack as normal."

Jack_Simth
2010-12-26, 07:04 PM
But doesn't that mean Ur Priest normally gets 9th level spells at level 14? What keeps that from being a problem at LA 0?Nothing. But free levels that can be tossed in front of it exacerbate the problem. Currently, if you ignore some of the abuses of Steal Spell-Like Ability, the Ur-Priest is only overpowered between ECL 12 and 16, where it has the potential for higher spell access then other classes. If you permit LA Negative 2, it could be overpowered between ECL 10 and 16. However, there's a few other fast-advancement PrC's that are a bit better balanced (Sublime Chord, Apostle of Peace, and ... Divine Crusader, I think?), where changing the skill BAB caps with negative LA would cause a situation comperable to the existing one with the Ur-Priest.

ericgrau
2010-12-26, 07:10 PM
Nah once the game is broken it's broken. It doesn't become any more dull once you trump everything. And the same DM who won't allow obvious Ur Priest abuse won't allow other obvious abuse either.

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-26, 07:18 PM
...

There is no such perfect DM. Not everyone is perfectly observant and sees all forms of game-breaking or foresees everything his players will try.

And it's possible to be more broken.

ericgrau
2010-12-26, 07:23 PM
Not when you're talking about further increasing Ur Priest advancement via mystic theurge, etc. type broken. It's too obvious. There is high optimization which might sometimes slide and then there's distilled silliness.

PlzBreakMyCmpAn
2010-12-26, 08:08 PM
Negative LA is fine. Warforged incarnate construct is illegal anyways.

The only thing is, most people don't think outside the box enough to generate truly crippling abilities. I had a thread that contained abilities unique enough to warrant negative LA.

Urpriest
2010-12-26, 08:13 PM
Negative LA is fine. Warforged incarnate construct is illegal anyways.

The only thing is, most people don't think outside the box enough to generate truly crippling abilities. I had a thread that contained abilities unique enough to warrant negative LA.

Why is warforged incarnate construct illegal?

Yuki Akuma
2010-12-26, 08:22 PM
Why is warforged incarnate construct illegal?

He's confusing it with Soulfused Construct, which specifically states they can't already have the living construct subtype.

The template in Savage Species mentions no such thing.

Duke of URL
2010-12-27, 02:55 PM
In theory, there's nothing wrong with a negative LA that can only be used to offset other LA (i.e., cannot reduce a character's total LA to less than +0). The intent (as noted upthread) of Incarnate Construct was to do just that -- reduce a construct's LA in exchange for giving up some construct type benefits. And that's completely reasonable, as long as it's used specifically to reduce a high construct LA.

Where it gets unreasonable is when you try to apply it to bring a creature's total LA to less than +0, just to stack additional templates onto it. A negative LA template, if used, should be very specific as to the conditions under which it applies. (All the more so to guard against later rules doing something otherwise unexpected.)

Sir Swindle89
2010-12-27, 03:52 PM
There's modrons as well. I'm fairly sure there's some versions which are constructs and have LA+2 or less.

Modrons suffer fomr only being able to keep a few things in their head at a time.

Example: A Monodrone cannot tell it's self to stop walking(or decide to change direction) once it's been ordered to. Some one has to tell it to stop.

Low level Modrons are nigh unplayable for that reason. Yes you can still Dragonborn around it and win an internet, but thats what DM's are for.

mootoall
2010-12-27, 06:03 PM
Oh, right, and Negative LA, in any form, shouldn't be acceptable because it allows early entry into Incantatrix. And god knows we don't want that. Ever.

Popertop
2010-12-27, 06:20 PM
if incantatrix is that big of a deal, then don't allow the class

Dusk Eclipse
2010-12-27, 06:42 PM
You say this like giving rules lawyers aneurysms is a bad thing.:smallwink:
Hey! sometimes rules lawyers are necessary, specially when you are playing with newer players that don't know the rules well.

BTW my interpretation of Rules Lawyer means someone who has a deep understanding and knowledge of the rules,