Party role of a cleric?

[blackmage]

I'm working on a class that is a Cleric, but tier 3 and powered by Invocations instead of Spells. I'd like someone in this class to be able to take the same party roles that a Cleric can (but with less power and flexibility), but this has led me to a question, which leads me to a little poll of sorts.

To you, what is the party role of a Cleric/Divine Spellcaster? What does a replacement to this role need to be able to accompish?

Discuss!

[akma]

Healing.
Clerics are the healers of the party, so a class to replace clerics should be able to heal.
Also, they can survive in the front lines and fight in melee.

[blackmage]

Going to post my list to try and spur a little more conversation:

-Healing, definitely. I am referring specifically to hit point healing here.
-Debuff remover. If you have a curse/disease/magic you want to get rid of, the Cleric usually does it. Also applies to Ability damage/drain, et al.
-Resurrection. Doesn't come up (terribly) often, but very important when it does!
-Can stand in the front of a fight decently well

[boomwolf]

The "intended" uses of clerics are:

1-healing
2-buffer/debuffer (depends on alignment)
3-buff/debuff remover
4-resurrection (although I am against having that power so easy...)
5-can SURVIVE frotlines, but not intended to donate anything to them.

[Draz74]

Overcoming Alignment-based DR is an oft-forgotten, but surprisingly important role of the Cleric.

Also, I'd say an important role of the Cleric is "portray a theme." Clerics of different deities really should be very different in their abilities.

[Dead_Jester]

The "intended" uses of clerics are:

1-healing
2-buffer/debuffer (depends on alignment)
3-buff/debuff remover
4-resurrection (although I am against having that power so easy...)
5-can SURVIVE frotlines, but not intended to donate anything to them.

Of course, the normal uses of Clerics are more like:

1-Buffing yourself.
2-Buffing your slaves minions other party members.
3-Killing everything like the good Clericzilla you are.
4-Smiting the infidels and purifying them in a blaze of Holy fire/frost/etc.
5-Try to keep the slaves minions other party members alive (resurrecting them if they are worth the effort).
6-Starting and maintaining your own Undead sweatshop/dark empire and taking over the world with Shadow chain abuse.

Of course, some of those probably aren't tier 3, but those are what Clerics are mainly used for.

[blackmage]

Well, as I understand, part of the tier one-ness of Clerics is that any given cleric can do ALL of those. I'm hoping that my class will have the potential to do any of those, but any given build can only handle like 2 (though everyone will be able to heal).

[Hyudra]

Well, as I understand, part of the tier one-ness of Clerics is that any given cleric can do ALL of those. I'm hoping that my class will have the potential to do any of those, but any given build can only handle like 2 (though everyone will be able to heal).

But this is problematic, you see. If you can only accomplish 2 of the needed support-class features, and you're counting on each other party member picking up the slack, then it raises the question of whether it's worth having your class at all.

Say, for example, that you're a debuff remover and buffer. You have to be really, really, really good at doing those to make up for the fact that you're not a frontline fighter that can contribute to a faster victory. Replace this debuff-remover/buffer with a solid damage dealer (ranger?), and battles end faster, meaning less debuffs get applied, less healing is needed, less chance of people dying and needing resurrection, yadda yadda. If you're only 1/2 as good as the other party members when it comes to combat, and you're restricted to doing two things (ie. buffs & debuff removal), those 2 things you do had better be worth more than 1/2 a party member, for you to be pulling your weight.

Creating a tier 3-ish support character is an interesting thought exercise, but I fear your approach simply doesn't work, and will end up in the same general category as the Healer.

I might suggest the following:
Incantations that are very versatile. One incantation that can do several things. Such as:
Scour - A damaging effect that can be turned on allies to remove magical effects.
Light of Truth - An illumination effect that also helps detect falsehoods, hidden foes and illusions.
Karmic Shield - A protection effect that covers an ally, making the next attack against them heal them instead, while hurting the attacker.
A good balance of:
Incantations that prevent damage/effects.
Incantations that restore damage/effects (heal, debuff removal).
Incantations that work off of enemy effects (ie. justice, retribution, turning the tables on the enemy).
Incantations that have general/combat use.
Find another balancing point. If you fear versatility is too powerful, then make the class sacrifice something else. For example:
The Martyr, damages herself for her more powerful effects. A cut on her hand, fling sacrificial blood at an ally to remove a charm spell. (Damage as a balancing point).
The Preacher, takes time to bring out effects. An incantation might take until the beginning of his next turn to work, with the Preacher able to take other, limited, actions during that time. (Actions/time as a balancing point).

[blackmage]

Hmm, I think I've misspoke, and that is misleading about my intentions for the class I'm making.

This idea of thread was to find out what is absolutely necessary for a cleric replacement. To find things that you can't be a cleric without, because these would need to be basic class abilities. This is stuff like Resurrection, where the player doesn't plan for it but the party may eventually need it, and Healing which is a complete staple. There's a class ability that covers healing, debuff removing, and resurrection, intentionally versatile to cover all those things that 'need' doing occasionally. Being cagey because the details are still in the works. It uses time as another balance point, like you suggest, but I haven't found the exact balance point yet.

When I referred to any given character of the class being able to do 2 things well, I'm looking at this line from the class tier descriptions: "while the class itself is capable of anything, no one build can actually do nearly as much as the Tier 1 classes." So everybody in this class can heal a bit, and remove debuffs when needed, and resurrect, and isn't a weakling in combat. But after that, I'm intending the class to have X amount of power, that the player can choose to distribute between roles as he sees fit. So he could put all X in Healing, or X/2 in Healing and X/2 in Debuffing, or X/4 Healing, X/4 Debuffing, and X/2 Combat.

Since there's significant interest in this, I'll try to get the class ready to post quicker, maybe end of this week. Will let y'all know when I do.

[Dead_Jester]

Honestly, I think you are putting too much emphasis on healing/resurrection. Those are absolutely, bar none, the worst things someone can do, because it is damage control instead of damage prevention. If your going for a tier 3 class with less versatility then the Cleric previously had, at least let them have a meaningful combat role.

I'd say you could give them those abilities for free (don't make them choose healing over anything else), as they are after all clerics and one day someone will get stupid or unlucky and die. Put the restrictions (and the choice, if you have any) on the actual combat stuff (buffing, debuffing, facebashing, etc).

Also,you have to remember that a tier 3 class still needs versatility, it just shouldn't be able to handle any situation at any time by itself.

[blackmage]

I'd say you could give them those abilities for free (don't make them choose healing over anything else), as they are after all clerics and one day someone will get stupid or unlucky and die. Put the restrictions (and the choice, if you have any) on the actual combat stuff (buffing, debuffing, facebashing, etc).

Also,you have to remember that a tier 3 class still needs versatility, it just shouldn't be able to handle any situation at any time by itself.

Exactly what I am going for. Healing/dispelling/Resurrection are all class default abilities. The player choice is between buffing, debuffs, combat powers, etc.

[Thomar_of_Uointer]

If you're trying to make a cleric replacement, take a look at the Dragon Shaman from PHBII. They have a passive aura which grants everybody in the party fast healing, but it can't heal you above 1/2 your normal hit point total.

Anyways, the cleric is a support role, his job is to keep the party going. This means he has to be able to heal hit point damage, remove debilitating effects, and counter and protect things that cause hit point damage and debilitating effects.

As part of the cleric's religious theme, he's also a supremely efficient demon- and undead-hunter (which isn't so necessary.)

Clerics also have two domains (in 3.5 edition,) which let them specialize a bit. Character options are always nice, and I'd recommend you keep them in mind if you design a class.

[erikun]

The abilities that I would look for in a good Cleric replacement?

1.) The ability to heal damage, repeatedly, over the long term. (i.e. Vigor line)
2.) The ability to heal a large amount of damage in a short amount of time. (i.e. Heal)
3.) The ability to remove debuffs. (Cure Blindness/Deafness, Break Enchantment, Restoration)
4.) The ability to bring party members back to life. (This could be considered part of #4.)
5.) Dealing with alignment-based DR and foes.
6.) (minor) Dealing alignment-based damage.
7.) (minor) Surviving on the front lines, in the middle of combat.
8.) (minor) Misclaneous classical "cleric" spells, such as Create Food & Water, or Zone of Truth.

They aren't necessarily in any order. #6, #7, and #8 are really secondary roles, and most Cleric-replacements wouldn't need to be able to do so unless the character was build for it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to limit such functions to multiclassing characters. (For example, the class doesn't have any good combat or armor skills themselves, but there is nothing stopping them from being a Fighter/class and wearing heavy armor.) #8 could easily be handled by "domains" - for example, only a Lawful deity would grant the ability to learn Zone of Truth.

One thing that I would recommend is to give the class a weak, continuous (or free) minor healing ability. It would allow them to function as a healing at any time, although not something you could rely on when in trouble. #2 would involve healing a significant amount of HP, perhaps something like 1d6 per level + WIS bonus, so that using the ability is worth more than negating a single hit (or less). #3 and #4 should be obvious. #5 would be spells like Align Weapon or Protection from Evil. #6 is something like Flame Strike or Holy Word.