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Alleran
2010-12-28, 10:29 PM
I'm looking at the "Greater Metamorphosis" power in the SRD, and can't help but notice the 50 HD limit (presuming a CL of 25), which would allow a Psion to access significantly stronger forms than a Wizard/Sorcerer. The problem, however, is the 200 XP cost. I know that XP is a river and you wind up gaining it back (particularly if you're in a much higher encounter than you would otherwise be, and Greater Metamorphosis helps balance the power), but if it could be avoided altogether then that would be even better, so I'm looking for ways to get rid of the XP cost from both it and other powers.

I already know of the Rod of Excellent Magic in the SRD, but that's outlined as working for spells rather than for powers (unless there's another version that also works for psionics). I also know that some creatures, such as I think dragons, have an XP "cushion" of free experience that they can use up each day before they start going through the XP that they've actually earned. There is the limiter on not regaining the XP from used powers in the Psionics rules, but there's usually a way around that somewhere, somehow. Most of the ways I know of that take out XP costs are just for spells (e.g. Supernatural Spell), so what options exist for psionics to do something similar?

Psyren
2010-12-28, 10:58 PM
Am I missing something? It says here 25 HD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) is the max for psions too.

In any case, XP costs are Psionics way of being balanced by not needing verbal, somatic, material or focus components. In GM's case, the XP cost replaces the 1500 gp jade circlet you'd oherwise need for Shapechange.

gbprime
2010-12-28, 10:59 PM
I already know of the Rod of Excellent Magic in the SRD, but that's outlined as working for spells rather than for powers (unless there's another version that also works for psionics).

You're looking at a 650,000 GP epic magic item to avoid spending 200 XP on a spell? Really?

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-28, 11:09 PM
If you really want to get rid of XP costs, then you can take Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species and make your Manifesting (Su) - which, amongst other things, removes XP costs. This is of course total cheese and likely to get you a DMG/XPH to the head (or have it be changed by the DM, if (s)he's feeling reasonable) but it works by RAW.

Alleran
2010-12-28, 11:25 PM
Am I missing something? It says here 25 HD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) is the max for psions too.
The version of the SRD that I downloaded says 50 HD (twice manifester level, up to a 50 HD cap), as does this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) copy of the SRD, under the "Psionic Powers (G-P)" section. The XPH also lists a 50 HD cap.


You're looking at a 650,000 GP epic magic item to avoid spending 200 XP on a spell? Really?
No, I'm just saying I know that the ability to avoid the costs does exist. I'd really rather not run around pillaging the hoard of various dragons for the next month of game sessions in order to tally up the sort of cash I'd need for that solution. Not if it can possibly be avoided, anyway.


If you really want to get rid of XP costs, then you can take Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species and make your Manifesting (Su) - which, amongst other things, removes XP costs.
How does that work? I'm looking at the feat now, and all it says is that it turns spell-like abilities into supernatural abilities - I wasn't aware that manifesting was a spell-like ability at all.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 11:31 PM
If you really want to get rid of XP costs, then you can take Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species and make your Manifesting (Su) - which, amongst other things, removes XP costs. This is of course total cheese and likely to get you a DMG/XPH to the head (or have it be changed by the DM, if (s)he's feeling reasonable) but it works by RAW.

I don't think it does, actually. Supernatural Transformation turns one of your spell-like abilities into a supernatural ability. Spellcasting (and Manifesting) are not Spell-Like Abilities/Psi-Like Abilities. They are their own category of abilities - strictly, they fall under 'Natural Abilities', as they are not Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural by default. A fairly good try, but it's not RAW, and you deserve multiple DMGs to the head if you try to bamboozle the DM into such.

tyckspoon
2010-12-28, 11:31 PM
The version of the SRD that I downloaded says 50 HD (twice manifester level, up to a 50 HD cap), as does this (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35) copy of the SRD, under the "Psionic Powers (G-P)" section. The XPH also lists a 50 HD cap.


Errata, yo. d20srd incorporates the relevant errata for the sources it covers. The official SRD document does not, since it's just reproducing the rules text as originally printed.

Psyren
2010-12-28, 11:33 PM
If you really want to get rid of XP costs, then you can take Supernatural Transformation from Savage Species and make your Manifesting (Su) - which, amongst other things, removes XP costs. This is of course total cheese and likely to get you a DMG/XPH to the head (or have it be changed by the DM, if (s)he's feeling reasonable) but it works by RAW.

It actually doesn't. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a spell-like ability, and transparency doesn't extend to feats.


I don't think it does, actually. Supernatural Transformation turns one of your spell-like abilities into a supernatural ability. Spellcasting (and Manifesting) are not Spell-Like Abilities/Psi-Like Abilities. They are their own category of abilities - strictly, they fall under 'Natural Abilities', as they are not Extraordinary, Spell-Like, or Supernatural by default. A fairly good try, but it's not RAW, and you deserve multiple DMGs to the head if you try to bamboozle the DM into such.

Actually Glyphstone, manifesting IS a psi-like ability. It just isn't a SPELL-like ability.


The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 11:35 PM
It actually doesn't. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a spell-like ability, and transparency doesn't extend to feats.

Oddly, enough, it isn't even that.



Psionic Powers
Creatures with psionic powers are similar to creatures with racial spellcasting ability. They have the ability to manifest powers just as a member of a psionic character class can (and can activate psionic items accordingly).


See my above comments on racial spellcasting and natural abilities.


It actually doesn't. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a spell-like ability, and transparency doesn't extend to feats.



Actually Glyphstone, manifesting IS a psi-like ability. It just isn't a SPELL-like ability.

Well, I'll be dipped in molasses. Interesting.

Hyfigh
2010-12-28, 11:35 PM
It actually doesn't. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a spell-like ability, and transparency doesn't extend to feats.



Actually Glyphstone, manifesting IS a psi-like ability. It just isn't a SPELL-like ability.

I'm not finding where it says that it's even a psi-like ability... :smallconfused:

Psyren
2010-12-28, 11:36 PM
Oddly, enough, it isn't even that.



See my above comments on racial spellcasting and natural abilities.

See my edit above your post - manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a natural ability.

Quote from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psiLikeAbilities)

EDIT: You guys are posting quickly tonight! Direct the above to Hyfigh as well.

Hyfigh
2010-12-28, 11:37 PM
See my edit above your post - manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a natural ability.

Quote from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psiLikeAbilities)

You rock! Thank you, sir.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-28, 11:37 PM
See my edit above your post - manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a natural ability.

Quote from here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#psiLikeAbilities)

See my edit to your edit, which was slipped in before I finished. This is getting very recursive.

Psyren
2010-12-28, 11:41 PM
Back to the original topic, the OP hasn't answered my question - why remove the XP costs from powers, especially those whose magical analogues have costly material components or costly foci?

My egoist can Shapechange totally naked, all his possessions removed - not even a druid can manage that, without heavy op-fu. 200xp is a pittance to pay for that.

WarKitty
2010-12-28, 11:46 PM
Well, I'll be dipped in molasses. Interesting.

Can I have some molasses popcorn?

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-28, 11:55 PM
It actually doesn't. Manifesting is a psi-like ability, not a spell-like ability, and transparency doesn't extend to feats.

Except that Psi-Like Abilities specifically state that feats which effect Spell-Likes effect Psi-Likes. To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilities) (under "Psi-Like Abilities and Feats"):

Psi-Like Abilities And Feats
Creatures with access to psi-like abilities can use the feats Empower Spell-Like Ability and Quicken Spell-Like Ability.

Granted, it's extrapolation, but it seems sound. That said, it's up to your DM, and if it were me, I'd laugh and say try again.

Psyren
2010-12-28, 11:58 PM
Granted, it's extrapolation, but it seems sound.

Sound or not, it's not RAW. If anything, it's an exception for those two feats only.

Though it's interesting that you could technically pick those feats and circumvent Empower Power and Quicken Power.

The Glyphstone
2010-12-29, 12:14 AM
Sound or not, it's not RAW. If anything, it's an exception for those two feats only.

Though it's interesting that you could technically pick those feats and circumvent Empower Power and Quicken Power.

Not sure why you'd want to, though. Sure, they're free, but they're also limited in use to 3/day. So you save between 6 and 18 PP, but can't use it more if you want to.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-29, 12:18 AM
Sound or not, it's not RAW. If anything, it's an exception for those two feats only.

Fair cop guv'/hat-tip.

Alleran
2010-12-29, 12:41 AM
Back to the original topic, the OP hasn't answered my question - why remove the XP costs from powers, especially those whose magical analogues have costly material components or costly foci?
Because I don't want to be paying XP if I don't have to, basically. I'm not the DM in this campaign, so I'm certainly not removing XP costs as a blanket house rule. I just want to know what sort of combinations can allow it to be done. Admittedly, I wasn't expecting the potential to turn powers into supernatural abilities.


Errata, yo. d20srd incorporates the relevant errata for the sources it covers.
Could you link me to the errata? My Google searches aren't turning anything up.

EDIT: Hang on.


[QUOTE=Kalaska'Agathas;10056565]Except that Psi-Like Abilities specifically state that feats which effect Spell-Likes effect Psi-Likes. To quote the SRD (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/monsters/overview.htm#psiLikeAbilities) (under "Psi-Like Abilities and Feats"):

<snip>
Just above that, at the entry for the section, it says:

"A creature with psi-like abilities does not pay for these abilities with power points and does not pay any XP cost associated with manifesting the power the ability duplicates."

There's also this, from another, earlier, link:

"The manifestation of powers by a psionic character is considered a psi-like ability, as is the manifestation of powers by creatures without a psionic class (creatures with the psionic subtype, also simply called psionic creatures)."

And this:

"Psi-like abilities have no verbal, somatic, or material components, nor do they require a focus or have an XP cost (even if the equivalent power has an XP cost). The user activates them mentally."

That seems... counter-intuitive. It's as though by a certain reading of the rules, you never have to pay power point costs (or indeed any cost), because if they count as psi-like abilities, then they don't use up power points or the like at all. And it raises the question of what actual psionics are, if they're all psi-like abilities instead. Or am I reading this catastrophically wrong somehow?

Psyren
2010-12-29, 01:02 AM
Not sure why you'd want to, though. Sure, they're free, but they're also limited in use to 3/day. So you save between 6 and 18 PP, but can't use it more if you want to.

Ah, but for those three manifestations, you can augment to the maximum and then empower/quicken. That's one hell of an alpha strike. How many encounters do you have per day? Consider it an encounter power :smallsmile:


That seems... counter-intuitive. It's as though by a certain reading of the rules, you never have to pay power point costs (or indeed any cost), because if they count as psi-like abilities, then they don't use up power points or the like at all. And it raises the question of what actual psionics are, if they're all psi-like abilities instead. Or am I reading this catastrophically wrong somehow?

Three words: specific trumps general.

Greecy
2010-12-30, 01:07 PM
From what i've read so far it seems to me that when its saying that manifesting is a psi-like ability, it is referring to psionic creatures (which is states is creatures without a psionic class or creatures with the psionic subtype) because psionic creatures can already manifest powers without a psionic class, such as githyanki, illithids, etc.
I can't find where it says that any source that grants the ability to manifest powers (such as a psionic class) makes all their powers psi-like. If anybody can shed light on that taking a psionic class makes those powers psi-like then im probably sold, otherwise i'm standing that only naturally psionic creatures without a psionic class have psi-like abilities.

Psyren
2010-12-30, 01:40 PM
From what i've read so far it seems to me that when its saying that manifesting is a psi-like ability, it is referring to psionic creatures (which is states is creatures without a psionic class or creatures with the psionic subtype) because psionic creatures can already manifest powers without a psionic class, such as githyanki, illithids, etc.
I can't find where it says that any source that grants the ability to manifest powers (such as a psionic class) makes all their powers psi-like. If anybody can shed light on that taking a psionic class makes those powers psi-like then im probably sold, otherwise i'm standing that only naturally psionic creatures without a psionic class have psi-like abilities.

A psionic creature is any creature with the psionic subtype. While you are correct that monsters with PLAs gain this subtype, so does any player character that takes levels in a psionic class (see below:)



The Psionic Subtype
Any creature with psionic powers has the psionic subtype. A psionic creature can be born with the subtype or can gain the subtype during its life.

A creature meeting any one of the following criteria has the psionic subtype:


Creatures with a power point reserve, including characters who have levels in a character class that grants them a power point reserve or creatures who have the Wild Talent feat.
Creatures with psi-like abilities, including characters who have racial psi-like abilities.
Creatures that have spell-like abilities described as “psionics.”



So characters who take levels in a psionic class are every bit as much psionic creatures as monsters that come prepackaged with PLAs. What defines them as psionic is the subtype, which both groups gain.

Also, there are monsters that can't manifest powers without levels in a psionic class, yet they are still psionic creatures - Blues, for example.

Greecy
2010-12-30, 02:28 PM
Ok cool, so no matter how its attained, all spionics are technically pis-like? that just sounds so OP, but there it is.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-30, 02:29 PM
Ok cool, so no matter how its attained, all spionics are technically pis-like? that just sounds so OP, but there it is.

Yes, but because specific trumps general, they still have all normal XP costs.

Greecy
2010-12-30, 02:40 PM
Yes, but because specific trumps general, they still have all normal XP costs.

Ok i was just thinking about that in reference to what u said earlier about savage species. Of course being 3.0 I definitely would not let it fly.

Psyren
2010-12-30, 05:03 PM
Ok i was just thinking about that in reference to what u said earlier about savage species. Of course being 3.0 I definitely would not let it fly.

Supernatural Transformation of psionics wouldn't fly anyway, it's not RAW.

Kalaska'Agathas
2010-12-30, 05:20 PM
Supernatural Transformation of psionics wouldn't fly anyway, it's not RAW.

While this is true (at least according to a strict reading of the RAW) it could be argued that all Psionics count as Spell-Like Abilities (which is how they are presented in Savage Species, and the Monster Manual) which means that Manifesting becomes a valid target for Supernatural Transformation. Should it be? I think not. Could it be? Probably. Would it break your game? Depends on your players - its basically a case of "My infinity is bigger than your infinity" so if they're already abusing Magic and Psionics it's not going to do much harm, but if they aren't, then it could be a problem.

Claudius Maximus
2010-12-30, 05:29 PM
Concerning the errata issue, I'm having trouble finding the actual download of the file to link to, but I can quote my copy:


Page 117: Metamorphosis, Greater Power
The assumed form cannot have more Hit Dice than your manifester level (to a maximum of 25 HD).