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Ziegander
2010-12-30, 04:33 AM
The Swordsaint
EDIT: Let's try these changes on for size.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/7572/paladin.gif

Hit Dice: d12
Alignment: Any.
Starting Gold: As Paladin.

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |
S. Level|
S. Known|
S. Granted

1st|+1|+2|+0|+0|Attunement, Serenity|
1|
3|
2+1

2nd|+2|+3|+0|+0|Combat Casting, Divine Grace|
1|
4|
2+2

3rd|+3|+3|+1|+1|Channel Spell|
1|
5|
2+2

4th|+4|+4|+1|+1|Saintly Resolve 5, Spell Strike|
1|
6|
2+2

5th|+5|+4|+1|+1||
2|
7|
3+2

6th|+6/+1|+5|+2|+2|Quick Cast 1/day|
2|
8|
3+2

7th|+7/+2|+5|+2|+2|Passionate Smite|
2|
9|
3+2

8th|+8/+3|+6|+2|+2|Saintly Resolve 10|
2|
10|
3+3

9th|+9/+4|+6|+3|+3||
3|
11|
3+3

10th|+10/+5|+7|+3|+3|Quick Cast 2/day|
3|
12|
3+3

11th|+11/+6/+1|+7|+3|+3|Zealous Defiance|
3|
13|
3+4

12th|+12/+7/+2|+8|+4|+4|Saintly Resolve 15|
3|
14|
3+4

13th|+13/+8/+3|+8|+4|+4||
4|
15|
3+4

14th|+14/+9/+4|+9|+4|+4|Fervent Denial|
4|
16|
3+5

15th|+15/+10/+5|+9|+5|+5|Quick Cast 3/day|
4|
17|
3+5

16th|+16/+11/+6/+1|+10|+5|+5|Saintly Resolve 20|
4|
18|
3+5

17th|+17/+12/+7/+2|+10|+5|+5||
5|
19|
3+6

18th|+18/+13/+8/+3|+11|+6|+6|Blessed Fanaticism|
5|
20|
3+6

19th|+19/+14/+9/+4|+11|+6|+6|Deathless Saint|
5|
21|
3+6

20th|+20/+15/+10/+5|+12|+6|+6|Saintly Resolve 25, Quick Cast 4/day|
5|
22|
3+7[/table]

Class Skill (4+Int): Balance, Climb, Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Handle Animal, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (Religion), Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spellcraft, and Swim.

Proficiencies: All simple and martial melee weapons. Light and medium armor, and all shields except Tower.

Spells (Read Carefully): A Swordsaint learns and is granted divine spells from the Priest spell list, spending time in study and in meditation to master their power. In order to cast a spell a Swordsaint must have a Wisdom score of at least 10+spell level. The save DCs of a Swordsaint's spells are based on his Wisdom. A Swordsaint's caster level is equal to his class level. Swordsaints do not get bonus spells.

Like a Priest, a Swordsaint may choose two domains and add those domains' spells to his spell list. He follows the same rules as a Priest when determining what spells he is able to cast because of his alignment and whether or not he gets his domains' granted powers.

A Swordsaint's spells do not use spell slots like a normal spellcaster. By spending 15 minutes in prayer/meditation, he is granted spells from his list of spells known. When his spells are granted, some are granted at random and some he may choose himself. The first number in the S.Granted part of the above table is the total spells granted at random. These randomly granted spells are considered to be readied. The second number is the number of spells which the Swordsaint is able to choose for himself. These chosen spells are considered to be withheld.

When his spells are granted he cannot choose any spell he knows more than once, except if done randomly. Swordsaints may re-perform the granting ritual any time they can spend 15 minutes in prayer. A Swordsaint may only cast spells which are readied. After he has cast all of his readied spells, if he has any withheld spells those spells are now readied.

For example, an 11th level Swordsaint is granted 7 spells after spending 15 minutes in prayer. From his spells known, the Swordsaint may choose any four of them but none more than once; these are withheld. The other three spells are granted randomly and are readied.

Despite similarities to the Crusader class, the Swordsaint does not automatically recover his cast spells at the start of each encounter. A Swordsaint is randomly granted a number of readied Orisons at the start of each encounter equal to his Wisdom modifier.

At 5th level, and every three levels thereafter, a Swordsaint may lose a single spell known, to learn a new spell, of any level, up to the highest level of spells he knows.

Attunement (Sp): Swordsaints may substitute any melee weapon for the divine focus component of spells they cast and may cast spells with somatic components even if his hands are full as long as he holds a melee weapon in one of his hands. As long as he holds a melee weapon in one of his hands he ignores material components of spells as if he possessed the Eschew Materials feat.

Though he is automatically granted a number of readied orisons each encounter, he may recover non-orison spells he's cast in the following ways:


At the end of each of the Swordsaint's turns, if he is below 0 hit points but alive he recovers a single cast spell at random. That spell is readied.
Whenever an enemy provokes an attack of opportunity from the Swordsaint, rather than take that attack of opportunity he may recover a single cast spell at random. That spell is withheld.
Whenever the Swordsaint reduces a foe to 0 or fewer hit points with a melee attack, if that foe had more than 0 hit points before the Swordsaint's attack he may spend a swift action to recover all his cast spells. Half of those spells, rounded up and chosen at random, are readied; the others are withheld.

Serenity (Su): When making a melee attack, rather than adding his Strength modifier to the attack roll, he may add his Wisdom modifier if it is higher.

Combat Casting: At 2nd level, a Swordsaint gains Combat Casting as a bonus feat.

Divine Grace (Su): Starting at 2nd level, a Swordsaint adds his Charisma modifier to all saving throws he makes.

Channel Spell (Sp): At 3rd level, a Swordsaint has mastered the ability of combining of melee competence with magical power. As a standard action he may cast a spell and deliver it through a single melee attack without provoking attacks of opportunity. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action or less, and regardless of the number of targets it could normally be assigned the spell must target only one creature. Personal spells or spells with an area effect may not be Channeled.

The Swordsaint makes a melee attack roll at his highest attack bonus. If the attack misses his spell is cast but is wasted. If the attack hits, the target of the attack (and only the target of the attack) is subject to the effects of the cast spell as if the Swordsaint had succeeded on any attack rolls or spell penetration checks as the spell would normally require. The target of the attack is permitted any saving throws the spell would ordinarily allow.

Spells that generate multiple touches, or rays, charge the Swordsaint's weapon for multiple attacks. Each time he attacks with the weapon, one of the touches/rays is used until all have been used. Missing with an attack in this manner uses up one of the touches/rays. While the Swordsaint's weapon remains charged in this way if he chooses to cast another spell with his Channel Spell ability any charges currently held in his weapon are lost.

Saintly Resolve (Ex): Beginning at 4th level, a Swordsaint's dedication to the spiritual realm rather than the physical allows him to temporarily set aside pain and injury. You have a delayed damage pool that allows you to forestall the effects of attacks made against you. This pool begins at 0 at the start of each encounter. When you are attacked, any hit point damage you would be dealt is added to your delayed damage pool. At the end of your next turn, you take damage equal to the total stored in your delayed damage pool, which then resets to 0. This damage is reduced as normal by effects such as Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance, and healing effects may, at the Swordsaint's choice, restore hit points currently lost from the hit point total OR reduce the total damage in his delayed damage pool.

Special effects tied to an attack, such as energy drain, stunning, and so forth, still effect you as normal, and such effects are not delayed by this ability. For example, when damaged by a poisonous spider bite, the Swordsaint may delay some or all of the hit point damage, but must immediately make the Fortitude saving throw to avoid being poisoned.

At 4th level, your delayed damage pool can hold up to 5 points of damage. Any damage beyond that is dealt directly to your hitpoints as normal. The maximum damage your pool may hold increases by 5 points at 8th, 12th, 16th, and 20th level.

Spell Strike (Sp): At 4th level, for every 5 points in a Swordsaint's delayed damage pool, a Swordsaint gains a +2 insight bonus bonus on caster level checks, and +1 to the save DCs of spells casts through his Channel Spell ability.

Quick Cast (Sp): Starting at 6th level, a Swordsaint may cast a single spell, once per day, as a swift action. At 10th level and every five levels after a Swordsaint may use this ability an additional time each day.

Passionate Smite (Ex): Starting at 7th level, a Swordsaint adds his Charisma modifier to all damage rolls he makes against any creature with at least one alignment axis opposing one of his alignment axes. When using your Spell Channeling class feature with a spell that deals hit point damage Passionate Smite applies to both the weapon damage roll and to the spell's damage roll.

Zealous Defiance (Ex): Starting at 11th level, a Swordsaint adds his Charisma bonus on any check made to oppose an enemy's bull rush, disarm, feint, overrun, sunder, or trip attempt.

Fervent Denial (Ex): Starting at 14th level, a Swordsaint adds his Charisma bonus to attack rolls made as part of an attack of opportunity and to his AC against attacks of opportunity.

Blessed Fanaticism (Su): Starting at 18th level, a Swordsaint may act normally anytime he would otherwise be disabled, staggered, unconscious, or dead for a number of rounds each day equal to his Charisma bonus. He need not take these rounds in succession. During and after acting in these rounds, the Swordsaint is unaffected by these conditions, but they are not removed.

Deathless Saint (Su): Starting at 19th level, a Swordsaint is immune to ability damage and drain, negative energy and levels, and death effects.

Ziegander
2010-12-30, 03:22 PM
Swordsaint Feats

Exchange Spells
Prerequisites: Ability to cast 2nd level spells, Spellcraft 8 ranks
Benefit: You may choose to lose up to three of your spells known to learn an equal number of new spells from your spell list in their place up to the highest level of spells you are able to cast.
Special: This feat may be taken up to two additional times. Each time beyond the first requires 4 additional ranks in Spellcraft.

Expanded Channeling
Prerequisites: Arcane or Spell Channeling class feature, Spellcraft 6 ranks
Benefit: You gain the ability to channel ranged touch spells with your class feature if you didn't already have that ability. Further, you gain the ability to channel Close and even Medium Range spells with your class feature as long as the spell you wish to channel has only single target.

Perfect Channeling
Prerequisites: Arcane or Spell Channeling class feature, Spellcraft 12 ranks, Expanded Channeling
Benefit: You gain the ability to channel any spell with your class feature. Spells channeled in this way effect only the attacked creature regardless of whether it would normally effect an area or multiple creatures. Further, when you use your Arcane or Spell Channeling feature and you miss with the attack your spell is not cast or otherwise wasted.

Saint's Hand
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve class feature, Concentration 4 ranks
Benefit: You are able to channel your resolve into divine power. With a melee touch as a standard action you may subtract any number of points from your delayed damage pool to heal a touched ally, if you are Good, or to damage a touched enemy, if you are Evil. When you do this you lose an equal number of hit points. This loss of hit points is not considered damage and thus isn't reduced by any effect that would normally reduce damage such as Damage Reduction or Energy Resistance.
Special: Neutral characters may benefit from this feat, but they must choose when they take the feat whether they are able to heal allies or damage enemies. This choice is made once and can't be reversed.

Saintly Vitality
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve class feature, Saint's Hand, Concentration 10 ranks
Benefit: When you use the melee touch you gained from your Saint's Hand feat you may remove (Good) or bestow (Evil) negative conditions depending on your alignment and the amount of healing or damage you deal as outlined below (Conditions bestowed in this way last for 1 round.):

15 points - You may remove or bestow the Blinded, Deafened, Fatigued, Shaken or Sickened conditions.

20 points - You may remove or bestow the Confused, Exhausted, Frightened, Poisoned*, or Diseased** conditions.

25 points - You may remove or bestow the Nauseated, Panicked, or Paralyzed conditions.

30 points - You may remove or bestow the Cowering, Dazed, or Stunned conditions.

*This poison deals initial damage of 2 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution and secondary damage of 4 Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution five minutes later.
**As the spell Contagion.

Extra Quickening
Prerequisites: Quick Cast 1/day
Benefit: You gain an extra three uses of your Quick Cast feature each day.

Courageous Resolve
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you and allies within 60ft gain a +1 morale bonus to saves against Fear and to damage rolls.

Cunning Resolve
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you and allies within 60ft gain a +1 morale bonus to Initiative checks and to Touch and Flatfooted AC.

Motivational Resolve
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you and allies within 60ft gain a +2 morale bonus to ability checks, but not to skill checks.

Competent Resolve
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you and allies within 60ft gain a +2 morale bonus to skill checks.

Tactical Resolve
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you and allies within 60ft gain a +2 morale bonus to all Bull Rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, and Trip attempts.

Imbued Resolve
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you and allies within 60ft gain a +1 morale bonus to caster level.

Unbreakable Spirit
Prerequisites: Steely or Saintly Resolve
Benefit: For every 5 points in your delayed damage pool you have Damage Reduction 1/-- and Fast Healing 1. These stack with other sources of similar DR and/or Fast Healing you may have.

pilvento
2010-12-30, 03:46 PM
looking good, maibe u can separate some spells depending on the Swordsaint alingment.

Good Swordsaint/Paladin casting blades of blood, doom scrabs or rage? not in my campaing mister

Lord_Gareth
2010-12-30, 03:48 PM
looking good, maibe u can separate some spells depending on the Swordsaint alingment.

Good Swordsaint/Paladin casting blades of blood, doom scrabs or rage? not in my campaing mister

Why not Rage?

pilvento
2010-12-30, 03:51 PM
ok the Good one can, but not the Lawfull one

Starbuck_II
2010-12-30, 06:21 PM
So per encounter casting?
So Cleric/Pally ToB version: I like but getting DMs to okay this might be hard to playtest (vancian is very ingrained in DMs).

Does any coup de grace for spell reqacuisution or only full rd action ones? Death blow is a Complete Adventure feat that makes it a standard action.

Ziegander
2010-12-30, 10:38 PM
So per encounter casting?
So Cleric/Pally ToB version: I like but getting DMs to okay this might be hard to playtest (vancian is very ingrained in DMs).

Yeah, I know. I tried hard to make the spell list exciting but not outshine maneuvers available to characters of a given level. I just added a clause to clarify that you do not automatically have the spells available at the start of every encounter. They aren't 100% per encounter spells you DO have to recover them to cast them again.


Does any coup de grace for spell reqacuisution or only full rd action ones? Death blow is a Complete Adventure feat that makes it a standard action.

Only full round action coup de graces was my intention. Do you think I should clarify, or do you think I should open it up more so that Death Blow is viable?


looking good, maibe u can separate some spells depending on the Swordsaint alingment.

Good Swordsaint/Paladin casting blades of blood, doom scrabs or rage? not in my campaing mister

I had thought about making separate spell lists for each of the four alignments, but then I decided I didn't want to make it so polarized as the incarnum classes. I want characters playing the class to be able to mix up archetypes if they so choose. I want Grey Guards to be playable with this class. In the end I think it's best to leave DMs up to making that call for their campaigns if they wish.

A Weeping Angel
2010-12-30, 11:55 PM
Very cool class and where did you get that kick-ass image?

Ziegander
2010-12-31, 06:14 AM
Very cool class and where did you get that kick-ass image?

Thank you. The image is actually a reappropriated WotC artwork for the Soulborn class. It comes up in a google image search for Paladin. :smallsmile:

As far as the coup de grace recovery goes, I've nixed it. I built a couple of these guys and the two ways to recover a single spell (5 minutes meditation and dropping a foe with a melee attack) seemed to be the perfect amount of recovery. There have also been flavor concerns with the coup de grace from the beginning.

hamishspence
2010-12-31, 09:10 AM
Specifically, it's on page 5 of Magic of Incarnum- and represents the member of the Pentifex Order whom the iconic party (Tordek, Lidda, etc) meet in the introduction to the book.

A Weeping Angel
2011-01-02, 06:26 PM
Thank you. The image is actually a reappropriated WotC artwork for the Soulborn class. It comes up in a google image search for Paladin. :smallsmile:




Specifically, it's on page 5 of Magic of Incarnum- and represents the member of the Pentifex Order whom the iconic party (Tordek, Lidda, etc) meet in the introduction to the book.

Your welcome and thank you as well hamishspence

Ziegander
2011-01-04, 09:37 PM
BUMP!

Just wondering if anyone else has any feedback or criticism.

With the wider spell list, automatic armored casting (due to divine casting), higher hit die, and tweaked spell channeling, I'm aware this is more powerful than a Duskblade. However, its casting mechanics have large limitations. The nova capability of this class is almost non-existent even with the recoverable spells, and the random choosing of spells also prevents spamming "solution" spells and curbs abuses. But are there other concerns I'm not seeing? Problems with wording that allow broken stuff? Things I could have executed better?

Lix Lorn
2011-01-05, 07:23 AM
...they can get fourteen level five spells?
...that sounded overpowered in my head, but hey. Level 5.

I love it!

One thing. With Saint's Hand and Saintly Vitalit, I'd much prefer if you had the choice of the two despite your alignment. Good can hurt and evil can heal. Just my thoughts. :)

Ziegander
2011-01-05, 11:40 AM
...they can get fourteen level five spells?
...that sounded overpowered in my head, but hey. Level 5.

Wait. I hope not! What are you reading that allows this? I'll need to rewrite some things if you're correct.


I love it!

Thanks!


One thing. With Saint's Hand and Saintly Vitalit, I'd much prefer if you had the choice of the two despite your alignment. Good can hurt and evil can heal. Just my thoughts. :)

This is probably a good call.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-05, 12:08 PM
Wait. I hope not! What are you reading that allows this? I'll need to rewrite some things if you're correct.
Oooh, no I'm wrong. I misread spells granted, thought it was eight chosen AND six random, as opposed to eight total, six of which are random.

Ziegander
2011-01-05, 12:10 PM
Oooh, no I'm wrong. I misread spells granted, thought it was eight chosen AND six random, as opposed to eight total, six of which are random.

Ah, yes. Phew! I've been thinking that needs to be cleared up a bit, but I'm not sure how. The maximum number of 5th level spells a Swordsaint 20 can even know should only be 4, but yeah, he would then be able to choose any two of his spells when his spells are granted (probably two of his 5th level ones), and six additional spells would be granted to him at random from his 12 spells known.

EDIT: Added a separate clause in the Swordsaint's spellcasting allowing him to persist buffs active on himself when he reduces a foe to 0 or fewer hitpoints rather than recover a cast spell. Because it becomes tedious having to continue spending your standard actions over and over again just to get a nifty spell effect.

I also added in the full description of the Saintly Resolve ability, so that people without the Tome of Battle can enjoy this class.

Saint Nil
2011-01-05, 09:53 PM
About Saint's Hand, am I the only one who feel that it might be abused? True, 5 hit points isn't much, but it turns 5 points of delayed damage into DR 5/- on per round.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it. It doesn't seem like it would overpower anything in the long run, but felt it wouldn't hurt to mention it. Beyond that, this seems to be an amazing class that I'd love to play.

Ziegander
2011-01-05, 10:28 PM
About Saint's Hand, am I the only one who feel that it might be abused? True, 5 hit points isn't much, but it turns 5 points of delayed damage into DR 5/- on per round.

Perhaps I'm reading too much into it. It doesn't seem like it would overpower anything in the long run, but felt it wouldn't hurt to mention it. Beyond that, this seems to be an amazing class that I'd love to play.

It turns the delayed into DR only if you're spending your standard action to heal yourself every turn. It seems fine to me. Does anyone else share Saint Nil's concern?

EDIT: Also, if anyone here ever does play this class could you let me know how it goes? I plan on doing some playtesting as soon as I can, but I'd love to hear other reports. The mechanics are a bit difficult for me to judge the balance of.

Ziegander
2011-01-06, 03:42 PM
I've been considering redoing the spell list of the Swordsaint a bit, but at least initially only for an Alternate Class Feature. The idea is a Deity focused Swordsaint. So a Swordsaint of Pelor or a Swordsaint of Poseidon, etc. These Swordsaints would have a very small spell list shared by all Deity's Swordsaints which would be supplemented by all spells of 1st - 5th level on the Deity's list of Domains.

So... for example, just putting this together very hastily:

The General List

1st - Bless, Bless Weapon, Cure Light Wounds, Inflict Light Wounds, Lesser Restoration, Magic Weapon, Resurgence

2nd - Cure Moderate Wounds, Divine Insight, Divine Protection, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Zeal

3rd - Cure Serious Wounds, Greater Magic Weapon, Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass Resurgence, Prayer

4th - Cure Critical Wounds, Divine Interdiction, Inflict Critical Wounds, Lesser Visage of the Deity, Restoration

5th - Saint's Sword****, Righteous Aura


And then a Swordsaint of Pelor would add the following to his spell list:

1st - Protection from Evil, Enlarge Person, Endure Elements

2nd - Aid, Bull's Strength, Heat Metal

3rd - Magic Circle Against Evil, Magic Vestment, Searing Light

4th - Holy Smite, Spell Immunity, Fire Shield

5th - Dispel Evil, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Righteous Might, Flame Strike

Lix Lorn
2011-01-07, 05:02 AM
Throw in the Inflicts?
...yeah, add the inflicts.

Ziegander
2011-01-07, 12:56 PM
Yeah, that works. Thanks!

EDIT: Now what about the deities that don't have four domains? Some only have three, some have five or six.

ocel
2011-01-10, 01:32 PM
try this, it might work for this class: "Domain Casting by Stratovarius» I reposted it in [http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10104567&postcount=4 "

Ziegander
2011-01-10, 03:01 PM
try this, it might work for this class: "Domain Casting by Stratovarius» I reposted it in [http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10104567&postcount=4 "

Eh, thanks, but I'd already thought of something like that. It doesn't work for the Swordsaint because of how the mechanics of his spellcasting works. That idea would drastically increase his number of spells known, which would paradoxically make the class weaker in play. Because of the random nature at which his spells are granted to him; the more spells he knows, the less likely he is to be granted something that'll end up being useful in any given situation.

ocel
2011-01-10, 04:00 PM
Ah, I presumed my suggestion would make it more balanced since lowering the amount of spells he knew would be evened out by regaining them after each encounter, and even if he used up his spells, he could always fall back on his high bab.

Edit: Ah my mistake, system seems to work out on its own.
On an unrelated note, I liked what you did with Blessed Fanaticism.
Tier wise i'm thinking either 3 to 2 give or take how much it can be optimized.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 09:06 AM
By spending 5 minutes in meditation, or by dropping a foe to 0 or fewer hitpoints with a melee attack, he may recover a single cast spell.
Cure [X] WoundsInfinite healing. Might want to fix that.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 03:06 PM
Infinite healing. Might want to fix that.

It somewhat concerns me, but it's less efficient even than at-will Cure Minor Wounds and in normal situations it's less efficient than Crusaders healing with their healing strikes.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 03:10 PM
...And at-will Cure Minor is balanced? Also, Crusader's strikes don't work outside of combat.

Lord_Gareth
2011-01-13, 03:17 PM
Infinite healing. Might want to fix that.

Not really. Infinite healing has been around out of combat for ages, and isn't really an issue with balance.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 03:20 PM
Elimination of the primary form of resource degradation is balanced... how? Also... how is it available? Given that I accept the existence of the Buer Vestige, and utterly reject the balance there-of.

Lord_Gareth
2011-01-13, 03:31 PM
Elimination of the primary form of resource degradation is balanced... how? Also... how is it available? Given that I accept the existence of the Buer Vestige, and utterly reject the balance there-of.

Rope Trick is the earliest one, but at higher levels you also get wands & rods, arrows of cure [X] wounds, archon loops, etc, so forth. Even if you spend gold on it, getting infinite out-of-combat healing is so trivial as to be laughable.

Balance in D&D isn't about short-term resource management, but rather versatility and, most importantly, the speed at which you play rocket tag.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 03:55 PM
So... the fact that you're burning one resource instead of another is somehow irrelevant to this? Especially when GP is limited over a campaign, while HP/spells are limited over days or hours. Every GP spent on healing is less GP spent on being more powerful overall, permanently reducing your capabilities. If you aren't spending cash on healing, you're spending it on being more powerful.

I will grant that rope trick aids in this sense, but it requires up to 24 hours of use to reliably provide healing (Healers (as divine casters) only getting to pray once a day, unlike Arcane casters - Bards being the exception to this). We're talking a turnaround of 5 minutes for each healing spell compared to 24 hours for all the regular healing spells - or 288 uses of your highest healing spell available. Even talking about Bards, we're still comparing 96 uses of a moderately powerful healing spell compared to the Bard's full set.

Furthermore, the Swordsaint is getting completely free reign to use their healing at full speed, secure in the knowledge that the entire rest of his repertoire is 100% intact, unlike 90% of the rest of the healers in the game (the remaining 10% being kept from healing you to full through various means).

All of this on a class which gets almost all the best bits of a Duskblade, the defining class ability of the Crusader, half a dozen paladin-ish tricks, the ability to ignore death, and what amounts to half a smite at-will.

Lord_Gareth
2011-01-13, 04:09 PM
Hang around the Roleplaying Games forum for awhile and check out some of the CharOp contests; most powerful builds are feat-starved, but none are really WBL-starved. In fact, if I want infinite healing on even, say, a paladin build (which is WBL-starved) I can craft a wand of CLW with infinite charges at a trivial overall cost - a cost which is, in fact, cheaper and more efficient than spending that gold on disposable healing items. With a any prac-op in place in your game (and, granted, there may not be), healing isn't a resource, just a fact of the game.

Again, "balance" in 3.5 relates to versatility ("In how many ways can I affect the game world?"), action economy ("How often per round can I affect the game world?") and sheer power ("What is the extent to which I can affect the game world?"). That's why Wizards are so OP - with minimal application of effort, they can obliterate a city as a standard action. First blush on this class places it as T3, the (typical) ideal balance point. I'll give it an in-depth review later, but those three questions above are the big ones, not healing.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 04:18 PM
Hang around the Roleplaying Games forum for awhile and check out some of the CharOp contests; most powerful builds are feat-starved, but none are really WBL-starved. In fact, if I want infinite healing on even, say, a paladin build (which is WBL-starved) I can craft a wand of CLW with infinite charges at a trivial overall cost - a cost which is, in fact, cheaper and more efficient than spending that gold on disposable healing items. With a any prac-op in place in your game (and, granted, there may not be), healing isn't a resource, just a fact of the game....So, we're talking about custom magic items that no DM in their right mind would EVER allow?

Lord_Gareth
2011-01-13, 04:20 PM
...So, we're talking about custom magic items that no DM in their right mind would EVER allow?

Nah, you can get infinite healing wands and rods on RAW crafting rules. I'd also reccomend that you contemplate the other half of my post.

Lix Lorn
2011-01-13, 04:22 PM
Out of combat healing is not even a minor issue. And if you use your IN-combat actions healing, it's less efficient than using them to kill.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 04:22 PM
Nah, you can get infinite healing wands and rods on RAW crafting rules. I'd also reccomend that you contemplate the other half of my post.
Built on the formulas in the back of the DMG that no one has taken especially seriously since about a week after their release?

And the other half of your post is not relevant until you can present a credible argument that does render healing a non-issue as far as balance is concerned.

Lord_Gareth
2011-01-13, 04:29 PM
Built on the formulas in the back of the DMG that no one has taken especially seriously since about a week after their release?

And the other half of your post is not relevant until you can present a credible argument that does render healing a non-issue as far as balance is concerned.

Balance has to cater to the rules as written or else the rules-as-obviously-intended-but-clearly-botched (there's a lot of the latter). We cannot, as homebrewers, balance to house rules, even if those rules are reasonably common. Those crafting rules are a reality of the game, just as the trap rules that produce infinite-gold fabricate machines are.

As far as producing a credible argument, I myself am not a great optimizer. To this end, I cast my greatest spell - Summon Hamishspence.

*Goes off to PM Hamish*

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 04:30 PM
Furthermore, the Swordsaint is getting completely free reign to use their healing at full speed, secure in the knowledge that the entire rest of his repertoire is 100% intact, unlike 90% of the rest of the healers in the game (the remaining 10% being kept from healing you to full through various means).

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.


All of this on a class which gets almost all the best bits of a Duskblade, the defining class ability of the Crusader, half a dozen paladin-ish tricks, the ability to ignore death, and what amounts to half a smite at-will.

Here we go. Is it really a sin to give a class actually GOOD class features that really do something? A Duskblade's only relevant class features are Arcane Channeling, Quick Cast, and Arcane Channeling (Full Attack). The biggest differences between the Swordsaint and the Duskblade are in preparing spells into spell slots and the mechanics of how the Swordsaint has his spells randomly granted. Duskblades still have way more nova potential than Swordsaints and have the ability to prepare a single spell as many times as they want. The majority of a Duskblade's power comes from spell selection and Arcane Channeling. The same cannot really be said of the Swordsaint given the randomness of his spells. So, to compensate for this deficiency the Swordsaint is given stronger class features to bring its baseline power up to a more reasonable level.

And, yes, it's supposed to be the spellcaster version of the Crusader, so, yes, in many ways it mimics the operations of the Crusader. Crusaders and Knights have had the ability to ignore death for quite a while now. And, since I consider this to be a "fixed" Paladin, yes it should be more powerful than the Paladin. Of course, almost every class in the game is more powerful than the Paladin.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 04:32 PM
Balance has to cater to the rules as written or else the rules-as-obviously-intended-but-clearly-botched (there's a lot of the latter). We cannot, as homebrewers, balance to house rules, even if those rules are reasonably common. Those crafting rules are a reality of the game, just as the trap rules that produce infinite-gold fabricate machines are.So... you're suggesting that this class be relegated to the same level of balance as those items? And therefore be rejected by DMs who wish to approach the game anything like normally?

hamishspence
2011-01-13, 04:36 PM
I'd say most healing should always have some kind of limit.

It might be "must attack targets to heal some damage" it might be a charged item, or spell slots, or an item with limited uses per day- but it's always limited.

Helps ensure that there's always a "Do I really need to heal right now" question.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 04:58 PM
I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here.I'm saying that I disagree that that level of healing available at that level of ease is broken. Side-argument which I seem to be making a lot since my arrival on these boards...

Here we go. Is it really a sin to give a class actually GOOD class features that really do something?On their own, no. The problem arrives when they rise to the point of being a better overall package.
A Duskblade's only relevant class features are Arcane Channeling, Quick Cast, and Arcane Channeling (Full Attack). The biggest differences between the Swordsaint and the Duskblade are in preparing spells into spell slots and the mechanics of how the Swordsaint has his spells randomly granted.Offset by the fact that your extension of the ability to ranged touch spells drastically extends the number of spells that form available options.
Duskblades still have way more nova potential than Swordsaints and have the ability to prepare a single spell as many times as they want.The ability to keep having the spell available again for later combats offsets that drastically, especially coupled with the previous extension of available spells.
The majority of a Duskblade's power comes from spell selection and Arcane Channeling. The same cannot really be said of the Swordsaint given the randomness of his spells.I'm forced to fall back on an old phrase discussing the balance of the Crusader: random draw from a pile of awesome is still awesome. Having less control over their spells does not detract from the potency of said spells.
So, to compensate for this deficiency the Swordsaint is given stronger class features to bring its baseline power up to a more reasonable level....Steely Resolve, functionally free half-strength smites (with improved applicability), immunity to many of the nastiest abilities in the game, short-term death ignoring (which should probably be clarified to stop people who've been dead for centuries standing up and stabbing people who come along) & a major save booster. Unless I miss my guess, that's about 90% of a Crusader strapped on there, plus about 50% of a Duskblade.
And, yes, it's supposed to be the spellcaster version of the Crusader, so, yes, in many ways it mimics the operations of the Crusader. Crusaders and Knights have had the ability to ignore death for quite a while now.For the Crusader: Requires a very difficult save, doesn't work against Death Effects, stopped cold by other disabling effects. For the Knight: Again, fails against death/disabling effects, and frankly... this is a much more powerful class than the Knight - by a long way.
And, since I consider this to be a "fixed" Paladin, yes it should be more powerful than the Paladin. Of course, almost every class in the game is more powerful than the Paladin.I have no problem with it being stronger than a paladin (although I personally consider the Crusader to be the fixed paladin). I dispute it's ability to be more powerful than a Crusader or a Duskblade - both of which I rate as acceptably balanced classes.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 04:59 PM
I realize that at low levels the healing might seem kind of "overpowered", but that just gives low level PCs some more survivability allowing DMs to throw actually fun enemies at them rather than a bunch of lame goblins, kobolds, and orcs just so they level up.

By 9th level, 3d8+9 hit points of healing once every 5 minutes seems pretty lackluster to me. We're looking at spending an hour outside of combat to bring everyone up to 100%. And, while this doesn't cost any GP for the party, it does come with an opportunity cost. The Swordsaint has 4 spells granted, but three of those are randomly granted, so if he's chosen Cure Serious Wounds as his guarantee who's to say what his other three spells are and if they are particularly effective for the Swordsaint and by extension the rest of his party.

Lord_Gareth
2011-01-13, 05:02 PM
I'm saying that I disagree that that level of healing available at that level of ease is broken. Side-argument which I seem to be making a lot since my arrival on these boards...

You're having it a lot because it's commonly accepted canon in the 3.5 community that healing is a trivial act not worth discussing or worrying about (a discovery made on WotC's original char-op boards).

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 05:04 PM
By 9th level, 3d8+9 hit points of healing once every 5 minutes seems pretty lackluster to me. We're looking at spending an hour outside of combat to bring everyone up to 100%.Which takes no time out of character at all (and probably notably less if the Swordsaint took Touch of Healing).
And, while this doesn't cost any GP for the party, it does come with an opportunity cost. The Swordsaint has 4 spells granted, but three of those are randomly granted, so if he's chosen Cure Serious Wounds as his guarantee who's to say what his other three spells are and if they are particularly effective for the Swordsaint and by extension the rest of his party.If they're not useful, why has he taken them as spells known?

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 05:08 PM
You're having it a lot because it's commonly accepted canon in the 3.5 community that healing is a trivial act not worth discussing or worrying about (a discovery made on WotC's original char-op boards).o_0
...Is that so? No one thought to tell me back when I was last there, and I was there pretty much until 4th Ed rolled around. Also, I seem to recall Char-Op finding a lot of things that had very little to do with how the game is actually played. I tend to assume that homebrew classes are designed to be balanced on where games are played - the bit which DMs will allow.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 05:09 PM
Which takes no time out of character at all (and probably notably less if the Swordsaint took Touch of Healing)

I'm sorry, what? Touch of Healing is only applicable in combat, and only a round by round basis. What about casting the Cure spells takes "no time" and what do you mean by "out of character?"


If they're not useful, why has he taken them as spells known?

If you take a look at the spell list 100% of the spells ARE NOT 100% useful in 100% of situations. So, the argument that a "random draw from a pile of awesome is still awesome" doesn't exactly apply. I did, as a matter of fact, put some thought into the list. Sure, it's possible that you learned ONLY spells that deal direct hit point damage to enemies as well as the Cure spells, but then you're incredibly one dimensional, even moreso than a typical Crusader.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 05:23 PM
I'm sorry, what? Touch of Healing is only applicable in combat, and only a round by round basis.*Quirks head, checks Complete Champion.* ...Nope, nothing about combat-only here.
What about casting the Cure spells takes "no time" and what do you mean by "out of character?"I mean players will say 'we take an hour to catch our breaths and heal up', and that'll be that.
If you take a look at the spell list 100% of the spells ARE NOT 100% useful in 100% of situations. So, the argument that a "random draw from a pile of awesome is still awesome" doesn't exactly apply. I did, as a matter of fact, put some thought into the list. Sure, it's possible that you learned ONLY spells that deal direct hit point damage to enemies as well as the Cure spells, but then you're incredibly one dimensional, even moreso than a typical Crusader.Even if I were talking purely about direct damage spells, the fact that is a solidly valid strategy isn't diminished. Personally, I tend to treat the underlying mechanics of my class as being somewhat secondary to the complexity of my character, relying more on the overall themes for those elements.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 05:31 PM
*Quirks head, checks Complete Champion.* ...Nope, nothing about combat-only here.

Sorry, that's my bad. I thought you were talking about Saint's Hand, the feat I wrote for the class in the second post. Total brain lapse there.


I mean players will say 'we take an hour to catch our breaths and heal up', and that'll be that.

You talk a lot about "real games, with real DMs" but this seems to presuppose that all DMs allow the players to just do anything without repercussions. If I were DM and the players tried to do this in the middle of a dungeon, or in the middle of a time sensitive quest (ie, just about any published adventure module) you'd better believe the players are going to get slammed for it. The fact is, that in real games, players CAN'T spend an hour after every combat healing up.


Even if I were talking purely about direct damage spells, the fact that is a solidly valid strategy isn't diminished. Personally, I tend to treat the underlying mechanics of my class as being somewhat secondary to the complexity of my character, relying more on the overall themes for those elements.

While you may feel that a character that contributes nothing more useful to the game than dealing hit point damage to his enemies is a solidly valid strategy, I do not. This may be a part of a deeper contention in our gaming and game design philosophies.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 05:46 PM
You talk a lot about "real games, with real DMs" but this seems to presuppose that all DMs allow the players to just do anything without repercussions. If I were DM and the players tried to do this in the middle of a dungeon, or in the middle of a time sensitive quest (ie, just about any published adventure module) you'd better believe the players are going to get slammed for it. The fact is, that in real games, players CAN'T spend an hour after every combat healing up.The example thrown at me earlier was Rope Trick, which takes up to 24 hours. Also, my point is that this is a lot faster than almost any other method. And if we're honest, it wouldn't be every combat - it'd be every 2-4, and a bit of help from another healer means that it gets a lot faster. We're not talking an hour each time, we're talking 20 minutes, maybe every two fights, and only if the fights were a moderate challenge.
Also, this sort of healing does nothing to the Swordsaint's other resources. If anyone arrives to interrupt, they can respond with functionally full force without worry.
While you may feel that a character that contributes nothing more useful to the game than dealing hit point damage to his enemies is a solidly valid strategy, I do not. This may be a part of a deeper contention in our gaming and game design philosophies.I didn't say it was the whole of their contribution. For one thing, they're also providing more healing than practically anything else in the game. Secondly, skills & magic items (bought with the money saved on the free healing) contribute substantially to the game in my experience.
Also... you're playing a paladin. For most players, dealing & taking damage are the primary defining aspects of a paladin character's role. If you're very good at it (which, frankly, this is), then you're making a big contribution.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 06:38 PM
Well, I've admitted that this, as far as evaluating balance goes, this class has been the hardest I've designed. I just changed the time in prayer it takes for spells to be granted from 1 hour to 4 hours, and I changed the the recovery from 5 minutes per spell to 1 hour in prayer to recover all of his granted spells. That should have a big impact on the Swordsaint's available resources.

Also,


Also... you're playing a paladin. For most players, dealing & taking damage are the primary defining aspects of a paladin character's role. If you're very good at it (which, frankly, this is), then you're making a big contribution.

Simply because you're playing a Paladin shouldn't mean that your acceptable level of versatility and game contribution is any different than another character's.

Yue Ryong
2011-01-13, 06:53 PM
Well, I've admitted that this, as far as evaluating balance goes, this class has been the hardest I've designed. I just changed the time in prayer it takes for spells to be granted from 1 hour to 4 hours, and I changed the the recovery from 5 minutes per spell to 1 hour in prayer to recover all of his granted spells. That should have a big impact on the Swordsaint's available resources.I'm mostly happy now (only mostly, because I just spent 20 minutes drawing up a table showing how much healing it did in relation to a barbarian's hit points, which is all wasted, but oh well). I still think it's a little strong, but the hour-turnaround time has pushed it past the point where I consider it to be a between battle healing machine.
Simply because you're playing a Paladin shouldn't mean that your acceptable level of versatility and game contribution is any different than another character's....I obviously take a slightly different view on the versatility <-> potency relationship as regards game contribution. The two are linked (and you would never want to play a character with too little of either), but I would not outright say that potency is automatically inferior to versatility; some sort of sliding scale is where it falls, in my experience.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 09:05 PM
...I obviously take a slightly different view on the versatility <-> potency relationship as regards game contribution. The two are linked (and you would never want to play a character with too little of either), but I would not outright say that potency is automatically inferior to versatility; some sort of sliding scale is where it falls, in my experience.

Certainly the two are linked, a character that can do everything, but less than half as effectively a more reasonable character is just as worthless as a character that does just one thing but does it amazingly better than any other character could hope to.

I was more commenting on the fact that a Paladin and a Wizard shouldn't be playing a different game in terms of how potent AND versatile they are expected to be. That's how we get into the "Fighters can't have nice things" problem. Expectations on power and/or versatility of classes cannot ever be based on the fluff or the "defining aspects of a [...] character's role."

jojolagger
2011-01-14, 12:46 AM
I mean players will say 'we take an hour to catch our breaths and heal up', and that'll be that.
I'm in a game where one person has CLW as an at will SLA. Next level another group member gets CLW as an at will SLA. We're at level 6.
The Fact we can heal up the party in a minute or two for free means the large group size (11 players) doesn't force healing to be spread thin, and means the divine casters don't need to spend a bunch of slots on heals.
'Joseph pokes us back to fully healed' actually helps game balance.


I just changed the time in prayer it takes for spells to be granted from 1 hour to 4 hours
Why not go the cleric/Pally route of 15 minutes, but 1/day?


and I changed the the recovery from 5 minutes per spell to 1 hour in prayer to recover all of his granted spells. That should have a big impact on the Swordsaint's available resources.
This kills maims the recovery mechanic that makes the class work and interesting. This class only ever has 8 spells ready to cast. The party won't like waiting one hour for you to get a few spells.

Ziegander
2011-01-14, 01:54 AM
This kills maims the recovery mechanic that makes the class work and interesting. This class only ever has 8 spells ready to cast. The party won't like waiting one hour for you to get a few spells.

I'm not totally sure it's as bad as you make it sound. You are still able to recover a single spell whenever you disable a foe. I also added that, instead of recovering a spell you can persist a spell that's active on you as if you renewed the duration.

Remember, this is a very difficult to balance class and I still haven't properly playtested it. It needs to be played in a full game over the course of multiple encounters and adventures for me to get a real feel for what needs to be done with it.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-14, 02:24 AM
I'm in a game where one person has CLW as an at will SLA. Next level another group member gets CLW as an at will SLA. We're at level 6.


O.o
What on earth are you playing?

Ziegander
2011-01-21, 12:47 AM
Made a couple of tweaks, most notably to the spells known, spells granted, and to the Quick Cast feature. Lemme know what you think. The short story is, it knows more spells than it used to, it is able to choose more spells than it used to, and it can recover Quick Casts rather than spells if he wants.

Ziegander
2011-01-21, 11:17 PM
This kills maims the recovery mechanic that makes the class work and interesting. This class only ever has 8 spells ready to cast. The party won't like waiting one hour for you to get a few spells.

Y'know, I keep looking at the class and the spell list, and I keep thinking more and more that you're right. I did my best to keep the power level of the spells in the ballpark of an initiator's maneuvers and stances, but at 20th level, it has 8 spells ready and that means he can use, approximately, assuming limited spell recovery, one spell per round of combat for roughly three-ish combats a day. And really, that's not a very good comparison to the Crusader or Duskblade. The Crusader is using at the very least two maneuvers per round (1 strike and 1 stance), and sometimes three per round, and this is in every combat every day. The Duskblade with his incredible number of spell slots per day is able to do a similar level of spell spamming.

Any ideas on how I can up the number of spells the Swordsaint is able to crank out so that he can at least rival the two classes his is inspired on and built from?

jojolagger
2011-01-22, 01:49 AM
I'd say to go back to the 5 minutes for one spell deal.
There have been complatiants, but the Unlimited healing still costs something (must be out of combat, still slow, either replaces a different spell chosen or not sure to be gotten), and hasn't been a problem where it see it better in other places.

Ziegander
2011-01-23, 05:03 AM
I'd say to go back to the 5 minutes for one spell deal.
There have been complatiants, but the Unlimited healing still costs something (must be out of combat, still slow, either replaces a different spell chosen or not sure to be gotten), and hasn't been a problem where it see it better in other places.

I think I'd rather avoid the 5 minutes for one spell deal. My major concern at the moment is combat to combat viability and action economy. Like I mentioned the Crusader and Duskblade are beating the Swordsaint's butt when it comes to throwing around maneuvers and spells around. I have a couple ideas:

1) I'm wondering if it wouldn't be unreasonable to let the Swordsaint learn many more spells and choose more spells than are randomly granted. Like, if a 10th level Swordsaint knew 13 spells, 4 of which he chose when his spells are granted, and two of which are randomly chosen for him.

2) But even that might not be effective enough, so I have another idea. Make the mechanics work even more closely to a Crusader's in that when he meditates to have his spells granted, a small number are chosen at random and a ready to use, while a larger number the Swordsaint chooses, but these are withheld until he casts the random ones that are ready.

This would change utterly the way his spells are granted and recovered. For example, perhaps with only 15 minutes of prayer a Swordsaint's spells can be granted and a Swordsaint may be granted spells any number of times a day as long as he is able to spend 15 minutes in prayer. When, say, a 10th level Swordsaint's spells are granted, he gets a total of 6, three of which are randomly chosen from his spells known and are ready to cast, three of which he may choose from his spells known but these are withheld. After the Swordsaint has cast all of his readied spells all of his withheld spells are then ready to cast. Once he's cast all of his granted spells for the day he's able to spend another 15 minutes getting spells granted, getting three at random and three of his choice which are withheld.

How does that sound?

jojolagger
2011-01-23, 11:53 AM
Pretty good. Probably a bit annoying for them, but still gives them a bunch of spells.

Ziegander
2011-01-23, 11:14 PM
You don't think this feat:

Saint's Enlightenment
Prerequisites: Swordsaint class
Benefit: At the end of each turn while you are at fewer than 0 hit points, if you are still alive, you recover one granted spell that you have already cast today at random. That spell is readied.

...is too much of a feat tax a la Adaptive Style do you?

EDIT: Screw it, I just made this a basic part of their recovery methods, one of three.

EDIT2: Okay, made a few large edits to the class table, class features progression, and to the spellcasting mechanics. The Swordsaint should work much better now. Thank you for reading. :)

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-08, 07:51 PM
I will be playtesting this soon.

Ziegander
2011-04-12, 02:56 PM
I will be playtesting this soon.

Somehow I missed this post, or forgot about it. Anyway, I would certainly love to hear a playtest report if you ever get the chance.

Ziegander
2011-05-09, 08:34 PM
I'm going to be designing a Priest class to go with this. The Priest and the Swordsaint will share their spell lists much like my Warmage/Mageknight duo and the coming Hexblade/Dread Necromancer duo.

There will some changes not only to the Swordsaint's spell list, but also the spell channeling mechanic (to remain in line with the Mageknight and Hexblade).

Here is the work I've got done on the Priest so far:

Alignment: Any
Hit Die: 1d6

{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special |0th|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Channel Divinity, Aura|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Dark Knowledge (Tactics)|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Divine Health|6|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Divine Grace|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—|—

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Dark Knowledge (Defense)|6|6|5|3|—|—|—|—|—|—

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5||6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—|—

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5||6|6|6|5|3|—|—|—|—|—

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|Dark Knowledge (Weakness)|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—|—

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6||6|6|6|6|5|3|—|—|—|—

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Divine Vision|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—|—

11th|+5|+3|+3|+7||6|6|6|6|6|5|3|—|—|—

12th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8|Dark Knowledge (Puissance)|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—|—

13th|+6/+1|+4|+4|+8||6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|—|—

14th|+7/+2|+4|+4|+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—|—

15th|+7/+2|+5|+5|+9||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|—

16th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10|Dark Knowledge (Dread Secret)|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|—

17th|+8/+3|+5|+5|+10||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

18th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

19th|+9/+4|+6|+6|+11||6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6

20th|+10/+5|+6|+6|+12|Divine Apotheosis|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6

[/table]

Class Skills (6 + Int modifier): Concentration, Craft, Decipher Script, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Heal, Knowledge (All, Taken Separately), Profession, Search, and Spellcraft.

Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: All simple weapons and light armor, but no shields. Priests that worship a deity or deities are also proficient with those deities favored weapons.

Spells: A Priest casts divine spells, which are drawn from the Priest spell list found below. However, her alignment may restrict her from casting certain spells opposed to her moral or ethical beliefs; see Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells, below. Though a Priest knows every spell on her list she must prepare her spells ahead of time like a Wizard must.

To prepare or cast a spell, a Priest must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a Priest’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the cleric’s Wisdom modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a Priest can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on table above. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. A Priest does not get any extra domain spell slots.

A Priest’s spirituality influences her alignment, what magic she can perform, her values, and how others see her. A Priest chooses two domains and adds the spells from her chosen domains to the Priest spell list. She gains the granted powers of her domains only if her alignment matches that of a deity to whom the domains belong and only if she chooses to give that deity worship.

A Priest can't cast spells with an alignment that opposes her own, nor with an alignment that is even one step away from the alignment of a deity she worships. Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaos, evil, good, and law descriptors in their spell descriptions.

Priest Spell List

Orisons - Bless water, comprehend languages, create water, cure minor wounds*1, deathwatch, detect magic, endure elements, guidance, light, mending, read magic.

1st Level - Aid, align weapon, augury, calm emotions, cause fear, close wounds2, command, cure light wounds*, enthrall, inflict light wounds, magic vestment/weapon, make whole, prayer, protection from alignment, remove paralysis, resist energy, searing light, sending, sanctuary, status, zone of truth.

2nd Level - Bear's endurance, blindness/deafness, bull's strength, consecrate3, cure moderate wounds*, darkness/daylight, desecrate, gentle repose, inflict moderate wounds, lesser restoration, invisibility purge, neutralize poison, protection from energy, scare, shatter, shield other, spiritual weapon, tongues.

3rd Level - Bestow curse, contagion, create food and water, cure serious wounds*, dispel magic, disrupting weapon, greater magic vestment/weapon, helping hand4, inflict serious wounds, magic circle against alignment, remove curse, remove disease, restoration, shout5, speak with dead, water walk.

4th Level - Commune, control water, cure critical wounds*, death ward, dimensional anchor, dismissal, flame strike, freedom of movement, greater command, hallow, inflict critical wounds, lesser planar ally, mass cure moderate wounds*, mass inflict moderate wounds, panacea, poison, unhallow.

5th Level - Atonement, blade barrier, break enchantment, greater dispel magic, heroes' feast, insect plague, mass cure serious wounds*, mass inflict serious wounds, raise dead, regenerate, revivify, spell resistance, slay living, stone to flesh, symbol of fear, true seeing, undead to death.

6th Level - Antilife shell, Antimagic Field6, banishment, forbiddance, greater restoration, greater shout7, harm, heal*, mass bear's endurance, mass bull's strength, mass cure critical wounds*, mass inflict critical wounds, planar ally, symbol of stunning, wind walk, word of recall.

7th Level - Blasphemy, control weather, destruction, dictum, ethereal jaunt, fire storm8, holy word, plane shift, resurrection, symbol of weakness, word of chaos

8th Level - Cloak of chaos, dimensional lock, earthquake9, greater planar ally, greater spell immunity, holy aura, shield of law, symbol of death, unholy aura

9th Level - Foresight, gate, implosion, mass harm, mass heal, miracle, storm of vengeance, true resurrection.

*Spells of the Cure and Inflict line have a range of Medium (100ft +10ft/level) rather than Touch. When either is used to restore hit points the spells use d12s but when used to deal damage they use d8s. The Mass versions have a range of Long (400ft +40ft/level) rather than Short and omit the phrase "no two of which may be more than 30ft apart" from the target entry.
1 - Cure Minor Wounds restores 1d4+1 hit points rather than just 1 or 1d12.
2 - Close Wounds restores 1d8 hit points +1 per caster level.
3 - Consecrate and Desecrate respectively deal 1d6 positive or negative energy damage to undead in the area at the start of each round. The area of each spell is 20ft per caster level.
4 - Helping Hand also includes the effects of Spectral Hand.
5 - Shout CAN penetrate a silence spell or effect, in fact Shout dispels and counters Silence. A successful save against Shout negates the deafness but does not halve the damage.
6 - Antimagic Field has a range of Medium (100ft +10ft/level) and is not an emanation centered on you, but has an area of 5ft/two caster levels radius emanation.
7 - A successful save against Greater Shout negates the stunning and halves the duration of deafness but not the damage dealt.
8 - Firestorm deals damage in d8s not d6s and deals half fire damage, half divine damage like Flame Strike.
9 - Earthquake's Concentration DC for spellcasters is 40, the bludgeoning damage to creatures caught in a cave-in or a landslide is 15d8 with no reflex save for half. A creature caught in a cave-in or landslide must pass a DC 15 reflex save or die. Creatures on open ground are automatically knocked prone with no save and must also pass DC 20 reflex saves to avoid falling into fissures. Structures are dealt 15d8+100 untyped damage and creatures inside are dealt 6d8 bludgeoning damage +9d8 additional bludgeoning damage if the entire structure collapses with no reflex save for half. Creatures in the area of a river, marsh or lake are treated as though they are pinned beneath rubble as they are sucked into the quicksand and mud. Creatures that are pinned beneath rubble automatically face lethal damage if they are unconscious.


Aura (Su): A Priest of a chaotic, evil, good, or lawful deity has a particularly powerful aura corresponding to the deity’s alignment (see the detect evil spell for details). Priests who don’t worship a specific deity but choose the Chaos, Evil, Good, or Law domain have a similarly powerful aura of the corresponding alignment.

Channel Divinity (Su): Regardless of alignment, any Priest can release a wave of energy by channeling the power of her faith through her holy (or unholy) symbol. This energy can be used to cause or heal damage, or to boon or doom creatures depending on the type of energy channeled.

A good Priest (or a neutral Priest who worships a good deity) channels positive energy and can choose to deal damage to undead creatures and to heal living creatures. An evil Priest (or a neutral Priest who worships an evil deity) channels negative energy and can choose to deal damage to living creatures and to heal undead creatures. A chaotic Priest (or a neutral Priest who worships a chaotic deity) channels raw anarchic energy which can accelerate her allies and bring catastrophe to her foes. A lawful Priest (or a neutral Priest who worships a lawful deity) channels raw axiomatic energy bolstering her allies' defenses and crippling her foes (see spoiler below). A Lawful Evil Priest, for example, may choose to channel axiomatic energy or negative energy each time she uses this ability.

A neutral Priest of a neutral deity (or one who is not devoted to a particular deity) chooses one type of energy she wishes to channel. Once this choice is made, it cannot be reversed.

Channeling divinity is a swift action which causes a burst that affects all creatures in a 30-foot radius centered on the Priest. This does not provoke attacks of opportunity. A Priest may channel divinity a number of times per day equal to 3 + her Charisma modifier. A Priest can choose whether or not to include herself in this effect. A Priest must be able to present her holy symbol to use this ability.

NOTE: Channel Divinity takes the place of Turn Undead and may be used not only to qualify for any class or feat with Turn Undead as a prerequisite, but also uses of Channel Divinity may be used in place of uses of Turn Undead to activate abilities, class features, feats, or items.

Positive energy channeled in this way heals living allies in the burst for 2 hit points per Priest level and deals an equal amount of damage to undead foes in the burst. For 1 round healing is maximized for all living allies in the burst and nonliving foes in the burst are unable to regain hit points.

Negative energy channeled in this way heals undead allies in the burst for 2 hit points per Priest level and deals an equal amount of damage to living foes in the burst. For 1 round healing is maximized for all undead allies in the burst and living foes in the burst are unable to regain hit points.

Anarchic energy channeled in this way grants allies in the burst an extra move action which they may take anytime before the end of your turn, and forces enemies in the burst to reroll the next d20 roll they make before the beginning of your next turn, forcing them to take the worst roll.

Axiomatic energy channeled in this way grants allies a perfection bonus to AC and saving throws equal to 1+1/4 the Priest's class level for 1 round. Enemies caught in within the burst move at half their normal speeds. This effect lasts 1 round.

Dark Knowledge (Ex): Beginning at 2nd level, a Priest is able to utilize her great stores of knowledge to grant her allies bonuses against foes that she has learned of in her determined studies. At the start of each of the Priest's turns she may make a knowledge check against any enemy she is able to see and that she hasn't yet made a knowledge check against this encounter. These checks are made as free actions and as appropriate to each creature's type (as outlined here (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/knowledge.htm)). The DC for each such check is 15 and any bonuses derived from this ability last until the end of the encounter.

Tactics - At 2nd level the Priest grants all allies able to hear her a +1 bonus to attack rolls against any creatures her Dark Knowledge check succeeded. For every 10 points she was able to beat the DC the bonus to attack rolls increases by 1.

Defense - At 5th level the Priest grants all allies able to hear her a +1 bonus to AC against any creatures her Dark Knowledge check succeeded. For every 10 points she was able to beat the DC the bonus to AC increases by 1.

Weakness - At 8th level the Priest grants all allies able to hear her the ability to take advantage of her foes' weak spots. This grants allies a +1d6 bonus to damage rolls against such creatures and increases the save DC of any abilities her allies use against such creatures by 1.

Explaining these precise details requires a bit more attention and effort than normal. To grant her allies these bonuses the Priest must spend a swift action.

For every 10 points she was able to beat the DC the bonus damage increases by 1d6 and the save DCs of her allies' abilities increases by 1.

Puissance - At 12th level the Priest grants all allies able to hear her a +1 bonus to saving throws against any creatures her Dark Knowledge check succeeded, as well as the Evasion and Mettle abilities but only against attacks from those creatures.

Explaining these precise details requires a bit more attention and effort than normal. To grant her allies these bonuses the Priest must spend a swift action.

For every 10 points she was able to beat the DC the bonus to saves increases by 1.

Dread Secret - At 16th level the Priest is able to pronounce a terrible secret of a single foe as a standard action. If her Dark Knowledge check against her foe succeeded she recalls a dread secret about her foe, something specific and something that her foe thought to be covered up for all time. The targeted foe must make a Will save (DC 10+1/2Priest level+Priest's Charisma modifier) or be Dazed for 1d6+1 rounds. If the target's save succeeds it is still Staggered for 1 round.

Dread Secret cannot be used in the same round as Weakness or Puissance.

For every 10 points she was able to beat the DC increase the save DC against the Dazed condition by 2.

Divine Heath (Su): At 3rd level, a Priest is immune to all diseases and poisons, including those that are magical or supernatural in nature.

Divine Grace (Su): Starting at 4th level, a Priest adds her Charisma modifier to her saving throws.

Divine Vision (Su): Starting at 10th level, whenever a Priest uses her Channel Divinity ability, enemies within the burst must make a Will save (DC 12+1/2 Priest level+the Priest's Charisma modifier). If an enemy fails this save it is unable to attack or include the the Priest as a target or within the area of any spell or ability for 1 round.

Divine Apotheosis (Su): At 20th level a Priest becomes a being of true divinity. She becomes an Outsider with the Native subtype and gains DR 10/-- as well as Regeneration 1 which is overcome only by weapons whose alignment opposes her own. Finally, any hostile creature within a 30-foot radius of the Priest must succeed on a Will save to resist the effects of her overwhelming divinity (DC 15 + 1/2 Priest level + Charisma modifier). Those who fail take a -2 penalty on attacks, AC, and saves for 24 hours or until they successfully hit the Priest. A creature that has resisted or broken the effect cannot be affected again by the same effect for 24 hours.

Lord_Gareth
2011-05-10, 01:32 AM
Well, I played a Swordsaint as a DMPC for about level 6 - 10. My first comment is that you seriously need to mention what books spells come from, as whole swaths of that spell list weren't available to me because of book restrictions. This is just personal opinion, mind, but the class should be able to function with entirely OGL content; anything less feels like sloppy design.

The Swordsaint actually lent itself to an aggressive style; playing defensively didn't work out, but using Reach aggressively allowed me to be reckless with my spellcasting, which suited me just fine. I usually kept some healing spells and AoE's in my withheld spells and burned through the Granted ones, which often were...interestingly mixed, as fast as I could. Support casting is definitely not something the Saint is gonna be able to pull. Overall, playing the class came off as effective, if a bit flat; there's not a lot of variety in it.

Ziegander
2011-05-10, 01:42 AM
Well, I played a Swordsaint as a DMPC for about level 6 - 10. My first comment is that you seriously need to mention what books spells come from, as whole swaths of that spell list weren't available to me because of book restrictions. This is just personal opinion, mind, but the class should be able to function with entirely OGL content; anything less feels like sloppy design.

The Swordsaint actually lent itself to an aggressive style; playing defensively didn't work out, but using Reach aggressively allowed me to be reckless with my spellcasting, which suited me just fine. I usually kept some healing spells and AoE's in my withheld spells and burned through the Granted ones, which often were...interestingly mixed, as fast as I could. Support casting is definitely not something the Saint is gonna be able to pull. Overall, playing the class came off as effective, if a bit flat; there's not a lot of variety in it.

Actually my most recent edit may address both of your concerns. It uses the Priest spell list (above) which is mostly SRD with one or two spells from Spell Compendium. Because of the nature of the Priest spell list it is also able to customize the list by choosing two domains.

Lord_Gareth
2011-05-10, 01:46 AM
The granted spells vs. withheld spells thing isn't precisely a problem, nor is it actually fixable as such; because of the random nature of the spells, you're going to need to burn through the granted spells before you can really start fighting tactically.