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wayfare
2011-01-01, 10:41 PM
This is my attempt to create a Tier 3 Abjurer.

The class has become a competent mage killer.

Sigil Knight
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Ref Save|Fort Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+2|
+2|Spellward Glyph +5, Armored Mage (light)|3|3

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+3|
+3|Mage Hunter|3|4|-

3rd|
+2|
+1|
+3|
+3||3|5|-|-

4th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Mark of Judgment +1/2d4|4|6|3|-|-|-

5th|
+3|
+1|
+4|
+4|Spellward Glyph +10|6|6|4|-|-|-

6th|
+4|
+2|
+5|
+5|Arcane Strike|4|6|5|3|-|-|-

7th|
+5|
+2|
+5|
+5||4|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

8th|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+6|Mark of Judgment +2/2d6|4|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+6|
+2|
+6|
+6|Armored Mage (Heavy Shield)|4|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-|-

10th|
+7|
+3|
+7|
+7|Spellward Glyph +15|4|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-|-

11th|
+8|
+3|
+7|
+7|Swift Dispel|4|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-|-

12th|
+9|
+4|
+8|
+8|Mark of Judgment +3/2d8|4|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-|-

13th|
+9|
+4|
+8|
+8||4|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-|-

14th|
+10|
+4|
+9|
+9|Dispel Master +2|4|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-|-

15th|
+11|
+5|
+9|
+9|Spellward Glyph +20|4|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-|-

16th|
+12|
+5|
+10|
+10|Mark of Judgment +4/2d10|4|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3|-

17th|
+12|
+5|
+10|
+10||4|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4|-

18th|
+13|
+6|
+11|
+11|Dispel Master +4|4|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5|3

19th|
+14|
+6|
+11|
+11|Instant Counterspell|4|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|4

20th|
+15|
+6|
+12|
+12|Mark of Judgment +5/2d12, Spellward Glyph +25|4|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|6|5[/table]

Hit Die: d8

Skill List: Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: The Sigil Knight is proficient in all Simple weapons, Light armor and Light shields.

Spellward Glyph: At 1st level, the Sigil Knight can inscribe a potent glyph upon his shield. As a move action, the Sigil Knight can cause a glyph to appear upon his shield, Granting him +5 spell resistance for 1 min/level. This spell resistance stacks with any equipment or spell that grants spell resistance.

At 5th, 10th, 15th and 20th level the Spellward Glyph grants an additional +5 spell resistance.

A successful Dispel Magic dispels the glyph, though the Sigil Knight can take another move action to restore it. If the shield upon which the glyph is inscribed is damaged or sundered, the Spellward Glyph is dispelled.

Armored Mage: At 1st level, the Sigil Knight gains specialized training allowing the character to cast arcane spells while wearing light armor and using a light shield. At 10th level, the Sigil Knight can use Heavy shields without a chance of spell casting failure.

Arcane Caster: The Sigil Knight can cast arcane spells from the Sigil Knight spell list without preparation. The Sigil Knight knows all spells on this list without need for research -- they are simply part of its training.

The Sigil Knight focuses on Spells of the Abjuration School, though Defensive conjurations are also present.

Mage Hunter: The Sigil Knight is particularly adept at using his attacks to interrupt spellcasting. A spellcaster cannot cast defensively while the Sigil Knight attacks him. The caster is aware of the threat possessed by the Sigil Knight.

Mark of Judgment: At level 4, the Sigil Knight learns how to curse his enemies with a Glyph of power. Once per round, as a full action, the Sigil Knight can mar a single opponent with a damaging glyph -- a successful Will save DC (10 + ½ level + Intelligence Modifier) negates this effect.
On a failure, the target rakes 2d4 force damage. In addition, the sigil knight gains +1 to hit the opponent while the glyph is active.
At 8th level, the Mark of Judgment inflicts 2d6 damage, and the Sigil Knight gains +2 to hit against a marked opponent.
At 12th level, the Mark of Judgment inflicts 2d8 damage, and the Sigil Knight gains +3 to hit against a marked opponent.
At 16th level, the Mark of Judgment inflicts 2d10 damage, and the Sigil Knight gains +4 to hit against a marked opponent.
At 20th level, the Mark of Judgment inflicts 2d12 damage, and the Sigil Knight gains +5 to hit against a marked opponent.

A Mark of Judgment lasts for 1 min/level. A successful Dispel Magic dispels the mark.

The Sigil Knight may only have 1 Mark of Judgment active at a time.

Arcane Strike: At 6th level, the Sigil Knight gains Arcane strike as a bonus feat, even if the character does not meet the prerequisites

Swift Dispel: At 11th level, the Sigil Knight can cast dispel magic as a swift action.

Dispel Master: At 14th level, the Sigil Knight gains a +2 bonus to Dispel Magic Checks. This bonus increases to +4 at level 18.

Instant Counterspell: The Sigil Knight has learned to counter spells with expert fluidity. The Sigil Knight may attempt to counter a spell as an immediate action, provided he expends 2 equivalent level spell slots to do so. For example, a Sigil Knight attempting to use Greater Dispel Magic to counter a spell can do so as an instant action if he sacrifices two 6th level spell slots in the attempt.
The Sigil Knight may expend a higher level spell slot if he does not have 2 equivalent spell slots. In the above example, a Sigil Kinght with only one available 6th level spell slot could expend one 6th level spell slot and 1 8th level spell slot to manifest Instant Counterspell.

The Sigil Knight may only use Instant Counterspell once per round.

Spell List

1ST-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Alarm: Wards an area for 2 hours/level.
Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Hold Portal: Holds door shut.
Karmic Aura: Any creature damaging you becomes fatigued for 3 rounds.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles.

Conj
Mage Armor: Gives subject +4 armor bonus.
Obscuring Mist: Fog surrounds you.

2ND-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Arcane Lock M: Magically locks a portal or chest.
Arcane Turmoil: Targeted dispel magic on one subject, and subject loses one spell.
Attentive Alarm: As alarm, plus learn type and number of creatures that triggered alarm.
Obscure Object: Masks object against scrying.
Protection from Arrows: Subject immune to most ranged attacks.
Resist Energy: Ignores first 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.

Conj
Fog Cloud: Fog obscures vision.
Glitterdust: Blinds creatures, outlines invisible creatures.

3RD-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Dispel Magic: Cancels magical spells and effects.
Explosive Runes: Deals 6d6 damage when read.
Karmic Backlash: Any creature damaging you becomes exhausted for 2 rounds.
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
Nondetection M: Hides subject from divination, scrying.
Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Repelling Shield: Invisible disc gives +4 to AC, blocks magic missiles, pushes away attackers
Sign of Sealing: Magic sigil protects door or chest, deals 1d4/level damage if opened
Tenacious Dispelling: As targeted dispel magic, but second consecutive casting is more potent.

Conj
Bands of Steel: Metallic bands immobilize or entangle target for 1 round/level
Sepia Snake Sigil M: Creates text symbol that immobilizes reader.

Gaseous Form: Subject becomes insubstantial and can fly slowly.


4TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
Fire Trap M: Opened object deals 1d4 damage +1/level.
Globe of Invulnerability, Lesser: Stops 1st- through 3rd-level spell effects.
Otiluke’s Dispelling Screen: Targeted dispel magic on any creatures or unattended items, max +10 on caster level check.
Otiluke's Suppressing Field: Spells of a designated school or subtype are suppressed.
Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
Resist Energy, Mass: Targeted creatures resist energy of a particular type
Stoneskin M: Ignore 10 points of damage per attack.

Conj
Secure Shelter: Creates sturdy cottage.
Solid Fog: Blocks vision and slows movement.

Resilient Sphere: Force globe protects but traps one subject.
Wall of Fire: Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Ice: Ice plane creates wall with 15 hp +1/level, or hemisphere can trap creatures inside.

5TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
Duel Ward: +4 on Spellcraft checks, counterspell as an immediate action
Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Mage’s Private Sanctum: Prevents anyone from viewing or scrying an area for 24 hours.
Reciprical Gyre: Creature or object takes 1d6 damage/level of spell affecting it
Refusal: Spellcasters and creatures with spell-like abilities are prevented from entering an area

Conj
Freezing Fog: Fog slows creatures, obscures vision, hinders movement
Mage’s Faithful Hound: Phantom dog can guard, attack.
Secret Chest F: Hides expensive chest on Ethereal Plane; you retrieve it at will
Wall of Stone: Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.

Wall of Force: Wall is immune to damage.


6TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but +20 on check.
Globe of Invulnerability: As lesser globe of invulnerability, plus 4th-level spell effects.
Guards and Wards: Array of magic effects protect area.
Karmic Retribution: Any creature damaging you becomes stunned for 1 round.
Prismatic Aura: Shield of colors offers concealment and damages your attackers.
Repulsion: Creatures can’t approach you.

Conj
Wall of Iron M: 30 hp/four levels; can topple onto foes.
Steal Summoning: Take control of another caster's summoned monster.

7TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Sequester: Subject is invisible to sight and scrying; renders creature comatose.
Spell Turning: Reflect 1d4+6 spell levels back at caster.

Conj
Instant Summons M: Prepared object appears in your hand.

8TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Dimensional Lock: Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Energy Absorption: Target gains resistance 10 to energy; can turn one energy attack into healing.
Energy Immunity: Subject and equipment gain immunity to damage of specified energy type
Mind Blank: Subject is immune to mental/emotional magic and scrying.
Mysterious Redirection: Attacks against you have 50% chance to strike adjacent target instead.
Otiluke’s Dispelling Screen, Greater: As Dispelling Screen, but +20 on check
Prismatic Wall: Wall’s colors have array of effects.
Protection from Spells M F: Confers +8 resistance bonus.

Conj
Maze: Traps subject in extradimensional maze.

9TH-LEVEL SORCERER/WIZARD SPELLS
Abjur
Absorption: You absorb targeted spell energy to power spells of your own
Freedom: Releases creature from imprisonment.
Genius LociM: Create a guardian spirit for a specific location.
Imprisonment: Entombs subject beneath the earth.
Mage’s Disjunction: Dispels magic, disenchants magic items.
Prismatic Sphere: As prismatic wall, but surrounds on all sides.
Reaving Dispel: On a targeted dispel, steal spell power and effects for yourself

Conj
Refuge M: Alters item to transport its possessor to you.

Design Notes/My Logic

My hope was to create a tier 3 abjurer that could function as a combatant. I didn't want to give this class the good attack bonus (15/10/5), as none of the other tier 3 mages break from the mage attack progression.

The Mark of Judgment class feature allows the Sigil knight to gain a bonus when attacking certain targets -- this effectively turns the sigil knight into a decent combatant. Since most Abjurations lack a real offensive component, Arcane Strike allows the sigil knight to deliver highly accurate attacks with a high damage component.

Spellward Glyph makes the Sigil Knight nearly immune to direct effect magic, particularly when combined with any SR items. At this point, the Sigil Knight becomes a spellcasters nightmare, particularly those who rely upon buffs.


Any criticism is welcome!

JKTrickster
2011-01-01, 11:46 PM
Problems: I only see the spell list up so....no explanation on class features? :smalltongue:

wayfare
2011-01-02, 12:57 AM
oops, ok, everything is up now.

Ozymandias
2011-01-02, 01:17 PM
I don't know that this will actually be a decent combatant - the glyph provides a minor bonus and takes a full-round action to set up. I would buff the marking effect (maybe double the to hit and a d4 force damage boost or something), or make it a swift action or something (but not both obviously). Also maybe have the mark effect, but not the damage, persist even on a made save; you're already burning a full action, you'd better get some payoff.

As is you're still going to lag pretty far behind even, e.g. a bard in melee combat, with very little in the way of offensive capabilities either mundane or magical. I don't think 3/4 BAB is out of the question here, simply because you need some offensive capabilities even if the class is defense-focused, and there's actually relatively little synergy between its spells and melee; bards, by comparison, get haste, heroism, etc as well as highly useful illusion defensive buffs.

That said, the class isn't weak; it gets a good spellcasting scheme and some very nice spells, but doesn't quite have the versatility or power that I think is expected of tier 3.

Edit: Also, no proficiencies are up. Presumably Light Armor, Shields, and Martial weapons? Or the "simple weapons and X Martials of your choice" perhaps?

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-02, 03:57 PM
There's a few things I see a bit wrong on the class.

First: great that you have Conjuration as part of the lists of spells, but it pains me to see the lack of Transmutation. Warmage has mostly Evocation spells, but it also has bits of Conjuration, Necromancy (really, I kid you not) and Transmutation. Beguiler also has bits of Transmutation and Abjuration to supplement their Enchantment and Illusion specialties. I'd say add most of the Transmutation buffs and Illusion defenses; perhaps some of the spells that neuter most spellcasters (aka; why the heck the Sigil Knight doesn't have True Seeing?), since Abjuration and Conjuration doesn't seem that strong. Also, add spells from the Spell Compendium; that spell list is awfully small.

Second: did you realize that you can't cast spells until level 4? You might be asking "why"?, and there's a good reason why:


You can cast a spell at a lower caster level than normal, but the caster level you choose must be high enough for you to cast the spell in question, and all level-dependent features must be based on the same caster level.

Now, this deals mostly with lowering your caster level voluntarily (something that's seldom used), but it's the closest thing to RAW regarding spellcasting (perhaps there's a much clearer version of that); you can't cast spells if your caster level is low. That means, by definition, you'll never be able to cast 9th level spells, and your spellcasting ability will be delayed by four levels (ouch!). That can be solved pretty easily: explain that gaining Mage Slayer as a bonus feat does not reduce your caster level (on Sigil Knight spells, mind you), so that you can keep it. Also: it makes for a very nice dip, since you get 2 minutes worth of +5 to Spell Resistance and Mage Slayer for free. Which leads to the third part...

...Mage Slayer should be moved later on. Level 3 would still be much of a dip, but it would be a bit more painful. Ideally it should be at level 5 or so, since that way you'd prevent dips from happening (or at least, force a serious dip).

Fourth: good BAB (+1 BAB/class level) isn't necessary, but medium BAB (+3 BAB/4 levels) is something your class would benefit greatly. That the Warmage doesn't have medium BAB is no excuse: in fact, Warmage should have had full BAB, being a class with some support from war. Consider the following: full BAB isn't as important as spells, and you're reducing your spell list to almost nil (only from two schools, which isn't a very good idea), so you should compensate somewhere. With Mark of Judgment you'd have close to full BAB, but only on one character; with the rest, you wouldn't be capable of fighting in close combat with the same effectiveness as, say, a Psychic Warrior (which has less powers but, lo and behold, has medium BAB and it's meant to be a hybrid fighter/psychic class). Think of medium BAB at least, sorta like the Cleric (which has medium BAB and full spellcasting and crushes the Sigil Knight into oblivion with less spells and class abilities). Having good Fort and Will saves is great: it makes it a bit more tank-ish.

Now, since your intention is to make a "mage-killer", I'd recommend you to go to Complete Arcane and see the Suel Arcanamach. Once you return, consider what the Suel Arcanamach has that could benefit your Sigil Knight class: most of what I said is on the Suel Arcanamach class description (medium BAB, Abjuration, Divination and Transmutation spells with Illusion defenses) and make them pretty nasty if you're focused on mage-killing. Even then, the class will still pale in comparison to a Tier 1 caster, given that spell resistance hurts your allies more than your enemies, and your spell list is far too little to work. Refine that concept, and you might have a winner in your hands. But it still needs quite a bit of polish.

Also: d8. You have to wear good armor and shields, but the Hit Dice of a Rogue!? d8 is what a Cleric has, and it's fine for it; Sigil Knight behaves a bit like an arcane Cleric without healing anyways (as far as I can perceive it). Also, add the list of weapons and armor it has access to: simple weapons, medium armor, all shields except tower, and the ability to cast spells in medium armor and shields should be enough for the class (no need for Heavy Armor, plus Medium Armor needs more love).

wayfare
2011-01-02, 10:20 PM
Thanks for the responses!

@Ozymandias: Mark of Judgment needs some work. I'm hesitant to make the mark a swift action, as it then becomes a free damage spam button. But, as it is right now, its probably too weak. I think a few options might make it better, though:

1) The Mark of Judgment can be activated as a swift action. The mark does not inflict damage, but grants +1 to hit/damage per 4 levels.
The Mark also cancels out 10% miss chance per point of attack bonus it grants.

2) The Mark of Judgment remains unchanged, but can be cast as a move action.
2b) Add a class feature that allows the mark to jump to another opponent when the marked opponent is dropped to 0 hp.

@TG Oskar: I'm not really following you on the Casting thing..what am I not getting?

1) I'm not opposed to adding a smidge of transmutation here and there -- any suggestions?

Zemro
2011-01-03, 12:07 AM
@TG Oskar: I'm not really following you on the Casting thing..what am I not getting?

Taking Mage Slayer reduces your caster level by 4.

When your caster level is below the minimum for a spell level you have available normally, you can't cast them until it's high enough.

Essentially receiving that feat means you'll have a CL of only 16 at 20th level, and with the progression a Sigil Knight has they need a CL of 18 in order to cast 9th level spells. All their other casting will similarly be delayed.

EDIT: Also, what are the weapon and armour proficiencies? Normally there's a section with all that under the table, and while some abilities refer to casting in armour, proficiencies still need to mentioned.

Jarrick
2011-01-03, 01:04 AM
This class is off to a very good start. The concept is the obvious answer to the warmage, and together with my Summoner (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8362297#post8362297) class, completes a rock-paper-scissors-style trio of classes based around magical warfare. It is for this reason, that I'll be totally cribbing this off you when its finished. :smallwink:

I think you could get away with removing the save associated with mark of judgement, and you forgot to mention at what range the effect works. I'd say bring it in at 1st level too. 4th level seems... awkward... so does the damage progression. I'm thinking it would be reasonable to alternate what goes up (Atack bonus or damage) and scale it kind of like Skirmish damage (1d6(8, 2d4, whatever) damage at 1st level, 1d6 damage and +1 to hit at 3rd, 2d6 damage and +1 to hit at 5th and so on).

I also think you could get away with making the SR granted by their spellward glyph scale directly with their level, like 5+1/level. But I'd move the ability as a whole to 3rd level... maybe.

And what's the deal with Spontaneous Dispel? They can cast it whenever they feel like it anyways. At least I think they can... Isnt it true that a spontaneous caster can choose to use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell? I mean without Heighten spell (level/save DCs not effected)?

Finally, I think they should use the cleric's base attack bonus and eventually get to cast spells in medium armor.

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-03, 01:16 AM
1) I'm not opposed to adding a smidge of transmutation here and there -- any suggestions?

Well, Haste is a good start. Stuff like Enlarge Person, Magic Weapon (and Greater Magic Weapon), some of the buffing spells (mostly Bull's Strength and Eagle's Splendor, others at discretion), Fly, Keen Edge, Slow, amongst others. That makes some of the needed buffs to become a key member of your party (either as a self-buffer or as a party buffer), and then some. Don't be stingy with Transmutation, though steer clear of (Tenser's) Transformation and the Polymorph line, because those are a bit too powerful for your concept (except Transformation which is the opposite; not good).


And what's the deal with Spontaneous Dispel? They can cast it whenever they feel like it anyways. At least I think they can... Isnt it true that a spontaneous caster can choose to use a higher level slot to cast a lower level spell? I mean without Heighten spell (level/save DCs not effected)?

True, which makes Spontaneous Dispel redundant. Perhaps start with Dispel Magic as a swift action, and later on as an immediate action? Quicken Counterspell is a bad idea 1/day; tie the "Spontaneous" Dispel ability with Counterspell, making it a high-level ability to consume a spell slot of 3rd/6th level or higher (for Dispel/Greater Dispel) to counterspell as an immediate action. That way, while you run through your spells quicker, you become the ultimate counterspell character, but one that needs some finesse to play (you could null the main enemy spellcaster, but if there's two, then you need to play it wise). It also makes this ability far more useful, considering it's almost like having Improved Counterspell but truly improved.


Finally, I think they should use the cleric's base attack bonus and eventually get to cast spells in medium armor.

This is probably the third or fourth mention I've seen (including mine). Consider it carefully, OP.

wayfare
2011-01-03, 02:22 AM
ok, so before i change the grid'o'stats, lets mark off the necessary changes:

1) Remove Mage Slayer Feat

Question: Replace it with similar effect, but w/o caster level reduction?

2) As per the Base Attack Bonus issue, I originally had the class as a 15/10/5 caster, but tried to stick a bit closer to the previously created material. However, if the class is a wash w/o this progression, then I'll put it in.

Question: If I add the good attack bonus, should I get rid of the Mark of Judgment feature?

3) Replace Spontaneous Dispel with the ability to cast dispel as a swift action.

4) As for buffs, i find them a bit hard to justify, as the class is prettu centered at removing magic. I could see access to transmutation buffs up to 3rd level , but not beyond. Does this make sense

Thanks again for the help!

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-03, 04:56 AM
ok, so before i change the grid'o'stats, lets mark off the necessary changes:

1) Remove Mage Slayer Feat

Question: Replace it with similar effect, but w/o caster level reduction?

Reasonable idea. You might even make the ability behave as if giving the benefit of Mage Slayer, but without the caster level loss (it becomes a common technique of the Sigil Knight, hence it doesn't interfere with the spellcasting ability of the character. Most times, the 3.5 devs used this little trick, granting the feat but not really granting the feat at all.


2) As per the Base Attack Bonus issue, I originally had the class as a 15/10/5 caster, but tried to stick a bit closer to the previously created material. However, if the class is a wash w/o this progression, then I'll put it in.

Again: not all of the things that were on previously created materials are always good. It's a thing of noticing what's the point where the Sigil Knight is expected to be: you'll expect the character in the middle, not as close as the melee characters but not as far as the spellcasters, able to engage an enemy spellcaster without any trouble but still holding distance to cast spells whenever necessary. It also helps it whenever the enemy warriors get close, since you won't be punished that much in terms of BAB. So it's not really much of a wash than a way to make the class a bit more flavorful AND useful; there's little of Sigil Knight with poor BAB, though full BAB is just overkill.


Question: If I add the good attack bonus, should I get rid of the Mark of Judgment feature?

Not really. The feature is quite situational; you become better against one enemy at the expense of others. Think of it in this way: against one enemy, you have BAB (albeit not iteratives) as a full Warrior, but against the rest, you have your usual bonuses. So as long as you keep the Mark on one character (and not place it on others), it should be fine.


4) As for buffs, i find them a bit hard to justify, as the class is prettu centered at removing magic. I could see access to transmutation buffs up to 3rd level , but not beyond. Does this make sense

The best way to think about it is as follows: the Sigil Knight is a class devoted to deal against spellcasters. While Dispel Magic (and eventually Greater Dispel Magic and Mage's/Mordenkainen's Disjunction) is a tool for just about everything, there will be a time where you won't be capable of handling the beatdown of most spellcasters in order to use your abjurations properly. In that case, you have a small set of boosts to aid you out in striking spellcasters.

Example: Enlarge Person increases your size, but also increases your threat range, meaning that creatures within 10 ft. of you suddenly are threatened. That way, you can do some minor battlefield control with your AoO, but specifically increase the effective range of Mage Slayer. Haste is a buff that benefits you and your allies, and while it may seem odd to a mage-slayer, it makes sense; the faster you reach your enemy and the faster your allies reach the enemy spellcaster, the better. Magic Weapon (and Greater Magic Weapon) makes your weapon stronger, which means more chances to hit and better damage against enemy spellcasters. Slow may not seem like the best debuff ever (it requires a Will save, which spellcasters are expected to have pretty high), but if your spell save DC is high enough, you might just disable one of the biggest perks of spellcasters (action economy), which reinforces your concept.

Now, that doesn't mean you should add all Transmutation spells. Polymorph and similar spells are just too abusive to work with, so they aren't needed. On the other hand, if a spellcaster uses an immediate duration spell (say, Wall of Stone), will you have the right tool to dispose of it? You won't be able to use Dispel Magic since it doesn't work on immediate duration spells, but you might use Disintegrate on that. Now, that implies you get an attack spell, but the beauty of Disintegrate is that it's a very useful utility spell; disintegrates enemies, sure, but also traps and walls and floors. Most important, it disintegrates walls used by enemy spellcasters, and it adds more power to your punch. Now, does that mean you should add ALL Transmutation spells because of their utility? Time Stop is insanely powerful, but it won't aid you in facing enemy spellcasters; that can be ignored. Etherealness, on the other hand, might allow you and your allies to face enemy spellcasters hiding in the Ethereal Plane, and stuff like Stoneskin and Iron Body are strong protective spells that would work well within the theme of Abjuration. Temporal Stasis is a strong capture spell, though, and perfect for your spellcaster-hunting needs.

Just because the original Warmage doesn't have most transmutation spells doesn't mean they wouldn't work in war; after all, when I decided to retool the Warmage, the first thing I thought was "how the heck does the Warmage lack all of these spells!?" Sure, it doesn't have Temporal Stasis or Etherealness or Polymorph or Shapechange, but in the very least it has Bull's Strength (good to add to allies or when your spells are starting to run out), Bear's Endurance (better Fortitude, which the Warmage lacks), Fox's Cunning (better Int = better Warmage Edge = better damage) and Eagle's Splendor (better save DCs equals better Warmage). If the Sigil Knight is to join the ranks of the Warmage, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer and other homebrew spontaneous spellcasters, it should have a useful spell list, not just a flavorful one.

Also: Sigil Knight is a spontaneous spellcaster; hence, it needs Advanced Learning. No exceptions.

Jarrick
2011-01-03, 10:54 AM
Reasonable idea. You might even make the ability behave as if giving the benefit of Mage Slayer, but without the caster level loss (it becomes a common technique of the Sigil Knight, hence it doesn't interfere with the spellcasting ability of the character. Most times, the 3.5 devs used this little trick, granting the feat but not really granting the feat at all.



I agree with this and almost everything else T.G. Oskar said. Except that I think Time Stop would be an excellent addition to their list. If you're going to give them buffs, wards, walls, etc you might as well give them time to use them.

I probably would have overlooked buffs in favor of divinations myself though. I'll be interested to see where this goes.

wayfare
2011-01-03, 01:54 PM
Made some suggested changes

1) Advanced attack bonus to good (15/10/5)
2) Replaced Mage Slayer feat with a similar class feature (Mage Hunter)
3) Replaced Spontaneous Dispel with Swift Dispel
4) Replaced Quickened Counterspell with Instant Countespell

Design Questions

1) I have yet to hear anything about Spellward glyph (aside from making the bonus more regular). Is this ability balanced or overpowered?

2) I included Arcane Strike as a way for the Sigil Knight to gain some serious damage potential: will people take advantage of this feature, or does it seem like dead weight?

3) Here is a list of the seplls I'm thinking of adding to the spell list. Any comments, concerns?

Level 1

Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.

Level 2

Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.

Level 3

Keen Edge: Doubles normal weapon’s threat range.
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1/four levels (max +5).
Stony Grasp: Earthen hand grapples enemies

Level 6

Brilliant Blade: Gives weapon Brilliant energy quality

Level 7

Ghostform: Become incorporeal and gain certain incorporeal qualities

Level 9

Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.



4) I'm going to add access to medium armor at level 13. ANy ideas as to what could fill the other dead levels?

--wayfare

Jarrick
2011-01-03, 03:46 PM
Spellward glyph looks good. If anything it's a little Under-whelming. And Arcane strike looks good too. As these guys are going to be pretty decent melee fighters, I suspect it will see a lot of use.

As far as spells, snake's swiftness and mass snake's swiftness from spell compendium seem to fit.

If you want inspiration for things to fill in dead levels, see the Abjurant Champion and Master Specialist (abjurer version, of course) in Complete Mage and the bonuses granted to specialist abjurers as ACFs in Unearthed Arcana.

Soren Hero
2011-01-03, 08:17 PM
been following this thread for a while now because i loved the idea of blending magic and melee to fight a spellcaster. i might play this class in my next DnD game, if my DM lets me.

some ideas for improvement:
1. armored mage clause. currently, it works for any type of armor. if u tie it in with proficiencies, it allows a one lvl dip in fighter to let ur sigil knight cast spells in heavy armor with no spell failure. this may or may not be what you intended for your class. it could also make it a powerful dipping class for any gish or mage to have, because a 1 lvl dip in Sigil Knight gives no spell failure chance in any armor.
2. as others have said, the spell list is a little limited. adding spells from the Spell compendium would be a great idea, but with a huge spell list at their disposal, it can be quite overpowering if they know EVERY spell on their list.
3. Spellward Gylph's untyped bonus to SR. if it can be added to armor or shield SR enhancements, this can be potentially cheesy as the stacking rules for SR from the SRD state that SR from various sources overlap. they dont stack. if a lvl 20 Sigil Knight has a SR of 44 from armor (SR 19 from armor, and SR 25 from the ability), that means a level 20 mage (for arguments sake, we'll say this mage isn't that optimized) will only break the SR on nat 20. a 20 min duration is a long time during one encounter
---------------------------------------------------
ways to fix:
1. i suggest linking the no spell failure chance of armored mage to a lvl progression. say light armor at lvl 1, medium armor at lvl 8, and heavy armor at lvl 15. it doesn't have to be this exact progression, but doing it in this fashion gives characters who stay in the class more benefit than those who just dip
2. add some spells from different schools that fit the theme of Sigil Knight. if you add spells from the Spell Compendium or other sources, you might want to limit the total amount of spells known, similar to a sorcerer. this gives each Sigil Knight a more unique approach and skill set to killing mages.
3. make it a base SR rating...removing the untyped stackable bonus and making it a base rating lowers the potential for abuse because of how SR stacking rules work. SR 25 at lvl 20 isn't all that great however, because the average lvl 20 mage only needs to roll a 5 on their caster level check to punch thru SR, so maybe a new formula for calculating SR for the ability should be something like 10+1/2 lvl+(ability score modifier for spellcasting). and make it last all day. or, if the Sigil Knight already has SR from another source (like armor or template), let the spellward glyph add a smaller bonus to SR like maybe 5+(ability modifier)

wayfare
2011-01-03, 10:23 PM
I've modified Armored mage to start with Light armor.

As for the SR issue, would 15 or 20 be a better bet.

Finally, this is something I pulled from my 1st version of this class (in may hastily scribbled hand).

Sigil Scepter: At 1st level, the Sigil Knight gains the ability to call forth a blazing rod composed of ever-shifting arcane symbols, glowing with a faint light. This immaterial weapon requites a melee touch attack to hit, inflicting 2d4(20/x2) force damage on a successful strike -- Unlike some immaterial weapons, a Sigil Scepter can earn critical hits, but does not add the characters strength modifier to the damage inflicted.
Any opponent struck by a Sigil Scepter has its spell resistance lowered by 1 per Sigil Knight level. This effect lasts for 1 round -- multiple hits add 1 round to the duration of this effect, but do not stack to lower resistance.

At level 4, a Sigil Scepter gains a +1 enhancement bonus and counts as a magic weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

At level 8, a Sigil Scepter gains a +2 enhancement bonus and inflicts 3d4 damage on a successful strike.

At level 12, a Sigil Scepter gains a +3 enhancement bonus and criticals on a roll of (19-20).

At level 16, a Sigil Scepter gains a +4 enhancement bonus. On a critical hit, the scepter lowers a foes spell resistance to 0 for 1 round.

At level 20, a Sigil Scepter gains a +5 enhancement bonus and inflicts 4d4 damage on a successful attack.

This was my 1st attempt at something like mark of judgment -- a feature to make a mage attack well. I thought the touch attack thing might be too cheap, but now I'm putting it to you.

Thanks for the help, I think this class is almost done!

T.G. Oskar
2011-01-04, 06:18 AM
Design Questions

1) I have yet to hear anything about Spellward glyph (aside from making the bonus more regular). Is this ability balanced or overpowered?

Spellward Glyph is a double-edged sword, but it's weak unless it's standardized. In the case of being 5 + class level, it's not very powerful but rather annoying; buffs and heals will have only a 80% chance of success when an ally casts them on you, while an enemy spellcaster needs only to roll higher than 4 in order to succeed. Later on, when it stacks with other SR sources (such as a Mantle of Spell Resistance), it becomes a real double-edged sword; you won't have much spells aimed at you, but you won't be capable of being buffed either (at least in mid-battle). So in a way it's balanced, but in another way it's underpowered; an enemy spellcaster will probably have the chance to land the spell that ends you (or just use a Conjuration spell which has no SR), while you'll be bouncing off allies' buffs, so it'll punish your allies more than your enemies.


2) I included Arcane Strike as a way for the Sigil Knight to gain some serious damage potential: will people take advantage of this feature, or does it seem like dead weight?

Not sure if it follows the concept any closer, but more power to the Knight, I'd say.

Since you'll have a very small spell list and most of them will be buffs and dispels, I'd say people will use the spell slots for Arcane Strike more often than not. The more the spell list is revamped, the less are the chances people will use the feat, but it will still be useful (essentially it provides what Mark of Judgment does already, except the bonuses are greater and the duration is shorter). It's an option more than a tool, one that the character will use when the need comes to deliver some punishment at the expense of a spell slot that might not be used during the day.

3) Here is a list of the seplls I'm thinking of adding to the spell list. Any comments, concerns?


Level 1

Enlarge Person: Humanoid creature doubles in size.
Expeditious Retreat: Your speed increases by 30 ft.
Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.

Level 2

Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Cat’s Grace: Subject gains +4 to Dex for 1 min./level.

Level 3

Keen Edge: Doubles normal weapon’s threat range.
Magic Weapon, Greater: +1/four levels (max +5).
Stony Grasp: Earthen hand grapples enemies

Level 6

Brilliant Blade: Gives weapon Brilliant energy quality

Level 7

Ghostform: Become incorporeal and gain certain incorporeal qualities

Level 9

Time Stop: You act freely for 1d4+1 rounds.



Remember that I also said Divinations were good, and Jarrick and Soren also provide good ideas and support to that idea. I mean, a mage-slayer without Detect Magic!? Also, the best way to have a mage dead is by scrying him, and you'll have the tools to counter the scrying or at least make it hurt, and all of those are between divination and abjuration so you might realize the connection between them.

Also, as mentioned; more spells from Spell Compendium. The spell list is a bit more robust, but still needs some buffing.


4) I'm going to add access to medium armor at level 13. ANy ideas as to what could fill the other dead levels?

--wayfare

When I was making my retooling of the Warmage, a poster indicated that delaying access to medium armor when it would eventually become useless was more of a nuisance than anything. I'm now relaying this to you; with Mage Armor and potentially Greater Mage Armor later on, medium armor may become useless and pointless. So make sure you give them medium armor proficiency from level 1, and allow them to cast in medium armor as well.

As for other dead levels, Advanced Learning. A limited spell list without the ability to increase it is a bad idea. It's also a staple of the spontaneous spellcasters' chassis: Warmage, Dread Necro and Beguiler all have Advanced Learning. Looking at your progression, you could start at level 5 and progress the ability every 4 levels (so you'd have one more spell at level 9, 13 and 17); however, you'd never be capable of learning 9th level spells with that, so if you can make a progression that ends in level 18th or 19th, all the better. Allow the Sigil Knight to learn spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list (not sorcerer or wizard exclusive spells) from the Abjuration, Divination and probably either Conjuration or Transmutation, your choice. That way, you can make the class specialize a bit on Abjuration and Divination.


I've modified Armored mage to start with Light armor.

As for the SR issue, would 15 or 20 be a better bet.

Make the SR equal to 10 + your class level, or if you have a source of Spell Resistance, make it grant a +5 bonus to your spell resistance if the latter source is better than your current spell resistance (aka, if you have a 4th level Sigil Knight somehow getting a Mantle of Spell Resistance (15), you could gain SR 18 with the temp. bonus from Spellward Glyph, for example.


Finally, this is something I pulled from my 1st version of this class (in may hastily scribbled hand).

Sigil Scepter: At 1st level, the Sigil Knight gains the ability to call forth a blazing rod composed of ever-shifting arcane symbols, glowing with a faint light. This immaterial weapon requites a melee touch attack to hit, inflicting 2d4(20/x2) force damage on a successful strike -- Unlike some immaterial weapons, a Sigil Scepter can earn critical hits, but does not add the characters strength modifier to the damage inflicted.
Any opponent struck by a Sigil Scepter has its spell resistance lowered by 1 per Sigil Knight level. This effect lasts for 1 round -- multiple hits add 1 round to the duration of this effect, but do not stack to lower resistance.

At level 4, a Sigil Scepter gains a +1 enhancement bonus and counts as a magic weapon for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction.

At level 8, a Sigil Scepter gains a +2 enhancement bonus and inflicts 3d4 damage on a successful strike.

At level 12, a Sigil Scepter gains a +3 enhancement bonus and criticals on a roll of (19-20).

At level 16, a Sigil Scepter gains a +4 enhancement bonus. On a critical hit, the scepter lowers a foes spell resistance to 0 for 1 round.

At level 20, a Sigil Scepter gains a +5 enhancement bonus and inflicts 4d4 damage on a successful attack.

This was my 1st attempt at something like mark of judgment -- a feature to make a mage attack well. I thought the touch attack thing might be too cheap, but now I'm putting it to you.

Thanks for the help, I think this class is almost done!

The ability seems out of context for the Sigil Knight, since it allows you to create a weapon a la Soulknife (but almost infinitely better) but it only sparingly works as a "mage-killing weapon". Arcane Strike should suffice, although the idea to impose a penalty to spell resistance works nice as a class ability (just make it a fixed penalty, for example a -5 to your target enemy's spell resistance, if any, for a number of rounds equal to your class level, but persistent uses don't stack).

wayfare
2011-01-04, 12:47 PM
Good thing I nixed it from the get go :)

1) So I'm thinking that Medium Armor can be granted at 9th level with heavy shields granted at 7th level. Would that be a better solution?

2) I'm also considering access to towers shields but not heavy armor -- shields will be important to the fluff of the class...and are something I want to incorporate in a bit more comprehensively...

3) Are there any feats that allow you to make secondary weapon attacks with your shield a'la TWF? Something of that order might be called for.

4) Advanced Learning...should I limit access to Abjuration, or grant a bit more access to Conjuration as well (conjuration being the second most prevalent spell list drawn from).

FishAreWet
2011-01-04, 04:14 PM
As you noted, the Mark sucks as it. To heavy of an action for a poor effect.
Increase the dispel bonuses and let him break the +15 cap on Greater Dispel. Abjuration is his thing, he should be good at it.

I saw a class similar to this that granted the ability to cast Wall/Shield spells as an Immediate Action. I thought that was pretty neat.

wayfare
2011-01-05, 02:47 AM
Would these fit as class features?

Rune of Peace

Once per round, as a standard action, the Sigil Knight can cast a glowing glyph at an opponent, dramatically imparing the targets ability to cast spells. The target is entitled to a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ level + Intelligence modifier). On a failed save, the target gains 5% spell failure per level of the Sigil Knight.

Rune of Nullification

As rune of peace, save that the target must check for spell failure to use supernatural and spell like abilities as well.

Soren Hero
2011-01-05, 04:41 AM
Would these fit as class features?

Rune of Peace

Once per round, as a standard action, the Sigil Knight can cast a glowing glyph at an opponent, dramatically imparing the targets ability to cast spells. The target is entitled to a Will Save (DC 10 + ½ level + Intelligence modifier). On a failed save, the target gains 5% spell failure per level of the Sigil Knight.

Rune of Nullification

As rune of peace, save that the target must check for spell failure to use supernatural and spell like abilities as well.

i think they fit the class very well, moreso than the mark of judgement.

i like the rune of nullification idea, but it seems situational, as most arcane and divine spellcasters don't have many SU of SLA's, but outsiders and monsters do.

however, i would clarify what you mean by spell failure for both features, and how long the debuff is supposed to last for. Arcane spell failure chance relates only to arcane spells with somatic components. Not divine spells. And Su's and SLA's have no somatic components, and aren't arcane per se. When I look at the feature, I think of this scenario. ::sigil knight casts rune of peace:: ::wizard fails save::, wizard is now squishy and without arcane power for 1d4 rounds....

Lix Lorn
2011-01-05, 07:16 AM
As for other dead levels, Advanced Learning.
Seconded.
Like the class, by the way. :)

wayfare
2011-01-05, 11:22 AM
i think they fit the class very well, moreso than the mark of judgement.

i like the rune of nullification idea, but it seems situational, as most arcane and divine spellcasters don't have many SU of SLA's, but outsiders and monsters do.

however, i would clarify what you mean by spell failure for both features, and how long the debuff is supposed to last for. Arcane spell failure chance relates only to arcane spells with somatic components. Not divine spells. And Su's and SLA's have no somatic components, and aren't arcane per se. When I look at the feature, I think of this scenario. ::sigil knight casts rune of peace:: ::wizard fails save::, wizard is now squishy and without arcane power for 1d4 rounds....

Here is my trouble spot -- I'm thinking of having this effect any kind of magic. Does that make it too powerful?
As for duration, I was thinking Intelligence modifier rounds, but 1d4 is probably a bit more sane, considering all the ways you can buff stats.

This is intended to replace Mark of Judgment.

And this is intended to replace Spellward Glyph

Shield Ward

While using a shield in combat, the Sigil Knight gains a +1 bonus to Spell Resistance per Sigil Knight level possessed. This bonus stacks with any Spell Resistance already possessed by the Sigil Knight, though the Sigil Knight can lower this spell resistance at any point.

Finally, I think I'm going to add advanced learning that grants access to Divination and Conjuration.

And that should about do it.