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Lappy9000
2011-01-03, 12:00 PM
..........

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 12:07 PM
I know that Devils and Demons don't get along, what with the "Always Lawful Evil" and "Always Chaotic Evil" respectively, but where do the "Always Good" Outsiders fit into this?
According to BoED- they don't fight each other normally. The Archons can tolerate the chaos of the Eladrins, much more easily than they can the evil of the devils.



Are Angels and Archons the opposites of these two, or there another faction not covered in the monster manual (like the Yugoloths, for example)? And speaking of which, what is the Neutral Good equivalent of the Yugoloths?
Eladrins are the CG faction and are in MM. Guardinals are the NG faction and are in MM. Angels are "any good" and are servants of deities- rather than ruling any one plane.



Also, is there any real naming convention for the Devils and Demons in 3.5 (Barbazu, Hezrou, Cornugon, etc.), or were they just names a designer at TSR thought sounded cool? And why don't Angels have fancy names?
Not sure where those names come from. Angels get "Planetar" "solar" and "deva"- deva does have some history as a mythological term.

That said, some fiend names were around in mythology for a long time "succubus" and "imp" most notably.

LOTRfan
2011-01-03, 12:12 PM
Basically, the common celestial races, broken up by alignment, are:

Lawful Good: Archons
Neutral Good: Guardinals
Chaotic Good: Eladrin
(Any) Good: Angels

------------------------------------------------------------------------
According to the Fiendish Codexes
Archons and Devils worked together in the beginning of time, as the major conflict was law vs. chaos (at the time, the Devils were Lawful Evil angels).

I think that if the Archons and Eladrin ever fought against each other like their evil counterparts, they forgave each other after the Eladrin brought an end to the Obyrith rule of the Abyss (Chaos was winning at first, you see).
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In pre-3.0 D&D, Angels were referred to as Aasimon.

Archons come from the word Archon, which is Greek for "lord" or "ruler."

Eladrin and Guardinals seem to have purely made up names.

I don't know if they have cool planar names like Devils. :smallfrown:

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 12:19 PM
Guardinal names (and appearances) tend to be animal-based:

Leonal (lion)
Avoral (feathered)
Equinal (horse)
Ursinal (bear)
Cervidal (antlered/horned)
Lupinal (wolf)
Musteval (ferret)

Eladrin- I'm not sure if names have an origin- or are made up:
Ghaele (in MM)
Coure (tiny, dragonfly wings)
Firre (fiery)
Shiradi (winged, large, fights with spiked chain)
Tulani (rulers)

afroakuma
2011-01-03, 01:14 PM
Each of the major Alignment Planes has a denizen "race" of Alwayses; these are known as the exemplar races.


{table=head]Plane|Alignment|Race
Celestia|LG|Archons
Elysium|NG|Guardinals
Arborea|CG|Eladrin
Limbo|CN|Slaadi
The Abyss|CE|Demons (Tanar'ri)
Hades|NE|Yugoloths
Baator|LE|Devils (Baatezu)
Mechanus|LN|Modrons[/table]


Now, yugoloths have also taken over Gehenna, and 3rd edition pushed formians in place of modrons, but those are your key ones.


Are Angels and Archons the opposites of these two

Angels are (currently) a unique outsider group; while Always Good, they don't stick to one locked alignment, and they have no counterparts on the other three sides. Unlike Archons et. al, angels populate all of the Upper Planes, and are the servants of the powers/deities/gods.


Also, is there any real naming convention for the Devils and Demons in 3.5 (Barbazu, Hezrou, Cornugon, etc.), or were they just names a designer at TSR thought sounded cool?

The latter, generally, though there are visible trends:

-zu can be used for either devils or demons, though the -ezu construction seems to be demon-specific, while all others generally are devils.
-gon is devil-only. -on is likewise, with the exception of the cambion.
-u is generally for demons.
-lith is demon-only.
-stro/-sto are demon-only.
-loth is yugoloth-only, for obvious reasons.

The -l*th formation is used rather consistently as a mark of the forces of eternal evil. Devils have the osyluth, demons have mariliths and the like, yugoloths and gehreleths both have it right in their name.


And why don't Angels have fancy names?

Devils and demons didn't, until the moral guardians got involved. Devils were formerly known by their descriptor (bearded devil, bone devil etc.) and demons by Roman numeral (a Type V demon was a marilith, while a Type VI was a balor) and then later by sound descriptor (hissing demon and roaring demon for the above two). When concerns about "devil worship" surfaced, the devils became the baatezu and the demons the tanar'ri. This sweep caught others: yugoloths were previously "daemons," and gehreleths "demodands."

So essentially, archons are still "lantern," "hound" etc. because nobody protests when you put an archon in your game.

Debihuman
2011-01-03, 02:31 PM
Devils and demons didn't, until the moral guardians got involved. Devils were formerly known by their descriptor (bearded devil, bone devil etc.) and demons by Roman numeral (a Type V demon was a marilith, while a Type VI was a balor) and then later by sound descriptor (hissing demon and roaring demon for the above two). When concerns about "devil worship" surfaced, the devils became the baatezu and the demons the tanar'ri. This sweep caught others: yugoloths were previously "daemons," and gehreleths "demodands."

So essentially, archons are still "lantern," "hound" etc. because nobody protests when you put an archon in your game.

More to the point, in the late 1980s when Political Correction came into favor, TSR started to received complaints from the parents who wanted the game stripped of references to demons and devils. TSR bowed to the pressure. Mothers Against Dungeons & Dragons (MADD) was initially successful in eradicating demons and devils from 2nd edition. However, their success was short-lived as the creatures were eventually reintroduced using the names the creatures called themselves namely "tanar'ri" and "baatezu." By then, there were far fewer complaints and the game simply continued to evolve into its current state.

Debby

hamishspence
2011-01-03, 02:34 PM
This sweep caught others: yugoloths were previously "daemons," and gehreleths "demodands."

Demodands were reintroduced in Fiend Folio 3.0- it's interesting to hear they were called that earlier as well before being renamed gehreleths.

averagejoe
2011-01-03, 03:44 PM
Edit: How in the Nine Hells did I manage to post this in the wrong forum? If you could move this to the Roleplaying Forum, mods, I'd appreciate it.

The Mod They Call Me: No problem.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-03, 06:42 PM
I thought the Inevitables were the Lawful Neutral group? Modrons were in AD&D but I didn't think they got brought over to 3.5. What book are they in?

But yeah, unlike the other groups angels were never mortals and are not bound to a plane of existence; they are bound to specific deities and work as their servants. As usual their evil counterparts tend to be more varied; each evil god has their own version of servant, such as Abashai's for Tiamat.

Eldan
2011-01-03, 07:19 PM
Many good gods have their own specific servants as well, too, apart from angels, however.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-03, 07:26 PM
Which books are those in? I would be interested in using them.

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 08:41 PM
I thought the Inevitables were the Lawful Neutral group? Modrons were in AD&D but I didn't think they got brought over to 3.5. What book are they in?

Oddly enough, Inevitables are not Outsiders but Constructs, and awesome ones at that. (I mean, the Quarut has a glowing hourglass for a face and time-related powers. That's awesome.) They're not made of Lawful Neutral the same way devils are made of Lawful Evil. They are, however, the multiverse's robocops.

Oh yeah, the Varakhuts also defend gods regardless of alignment, IIRC--they recognize that gods are necessary to keep order in the multiverse. As such, the Inevitables don't simply fight for a lawful neutral cause, but ensure that everyone stays put in their own place in the multiverse.

LOTRfan
2011-01-03, 08:49 PM
Aren't Varakhuts also the ones who hunt down god-wannabies looking to gain some divine ranks? Could've sworn I remember that fluff from somewhere...

AslanCross
2011-01-03, 08:50 PM
Aren't Varakhuts also the ones who hunt down god-wannabies looking to gain some divine ranks? Could've sworn I remember that fluff from somewhere...

Yes, to protect the existing status quo. Passing portfolios along the line makes the multiverse chaotic.

Xefas
2011-01-03, 08:53 PM
Each of the major Alignment Planes has a denizen "race" of Alwayses; these are known as the exemplar races.


{table=head]Plane|Alignment|Race
Celestia|LG|Archons
Elysium|NG|Guardinals
Arborea|CG|Eladrin
Limbo|CN|Slaadi
The Abyss|CE|Demons (Tanar'ri)
Hades|NE|Yugoloths
Baator|LE|Devils (Baatezu)
Mechanus|LN|Modrons[/table]



If you want to get technical, Demons aren't the exemplars of the Abyss, and neither are Devils the exemplars of Baator. Obyrinths are the true Chaotic Evil exemplars, and demons are just their pathetic slave-race. Baatorians were the original inhabitants of Hell before Asmodeus brought his adventuring party down there and cleaned them out to make way for his knock-offs made out of fallen Archons.

LOTRfan
2011-01-03, 08:56 PM
If you want to get technical, Demons aren't the exemplars of the Abyss, and neither are Devils the exemplars of Baator. Obyrinths are the true Chaotic Evil exemplars, and demons are just their pathetic slave-race. Baatorians were the original inhabitants of Hell before Asmodeus brought his adventuring party down there and cleaned them out to make way for his knock-offs made out of fallen Archons.

Technically, Obyriths are demons and Devils have existed before the Baatezu (whether or not Baatorians are Devils are up to debate, however). While I agree that Tanar'ri and Baatezu are not the exemplars of evil, afroakuma isn't exactly wrong. Afroakuma specifically references them, never mind. :smallredface:

Also, Modrons are constructs in 3.5e, so Formians are the actual exemplar race of Lawful Neutral. Strangely enough, the player race for Modrons are living constructs, while every modron giving statistics is just a common construct. :smallconfused:

Chilingsworth
2011-01-03, 09:06 PM
Where can Baatorians be found? I remember there being a couple in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, but other than that, I've never run into anything referencing them.

EDIT: At least, I think the NPC's I remember were ancient Baatorians, they were described as such, the Namers, I think. They didn't seem evil to me at all, though.

LOTRfan
2011-01-03, 09:15 PM
I don't think any stats were ever given. They were in 2e fluff, though. Nupperibos were supposed to be their larval state.

Xefas
2011-01-03, 09:16 PM
Where can Baatorians be found? I remember there being a couple in Neverwinter Nights: Hordes of the Underdark, but other than that, I've never run into anything referencing them.

EDIT: At least, I think the NPC's I remember were ancient Baatorians, they were described as such, the Namers, I think. They didn't seem evil to me at all, though.

They're mentioned very briefly in Elder Evils. If I recall, there aren't stats for them simply because they were wiped out to the very last individual (except for, I think, a "But there might still be a few lurking beneath Hell to this day! Wooooo, plot hook!"). Zargon, one of their leaders, is detailed in the aforementioned book, and he's a monstrosity with Regeneration 50 (who reforms automatically 1d4 days later even if you manage to bypass his Regeneration and kill him - despite the fact that his Regeneration isn't bypassed by anything), immunity to divinations, and the ability to auto-deny the ability to regain spells within a 100 mile radius of him (no save or any way to bypass it).

Also, you may just be thinking of the Knower of Names and similar from HotU. I don't think they were Baatorians.

(Also, someone needs to run a game involving a party of Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Dispater adventuring in ancient Baator, wiping out the horrible evil empire of the Baatorians. And post the campaign journal.)

Chilingsworth
2011-01-03, 10:10 PM
They're mentioned very briefly in Elder Evils. If I recall, there aren't stats for them simply because they were wiped out to the very last individual (except for, I think, a "But there might still be a few lurking beneath Hell to this day! Wooooo, plot hook!"). Zargon, one of their leaders, is detailed in the aforementioned book, and he's a monstrosity with Regeneration 50 (who reforms automatically 1d4 days later even if you manage to bypass his Regeneration and kill him - despite the fact that his Regeneration isn't bypassed by anything), immunity to divinations, and the ability to auto-deny the ability to regain spells within a 100 mile radius of him (no save or any way to bypass it).

Also, you may just be thinking of the Knower of Names and similar from HotU. I don't think they were Baatorians.

(Also, someone needs to run a game involving a party of Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, and Dispater adventuring in ancient Baator, wiping out the horrible evil empire of the Baatorians. And post the campaign journal.)

I was refering to the knowers, yes. I'm pretty sure they were refered to as "ancient Baatorians."

LOTRfan
2011-01-03, 10:28 PM
Zargon, one of their leaders, is detailed in the aforementioned book, and he's a monstrosity with Regeneration 50 (who reforms automatically 1d4 days later even if you manage to bypass his Regeneration and kill him - despite the fact that his Regeneration isn't bypassed by anything), immunity to divinations, and the ability to auto-deny the ability to regain spells within a 100 mile radius of him (no save or any way to bypass it).

How is that CR 19?

Tvtyrant
2011-01-03, 11:11 PM
Since no one will tell me where to find 3.5 Modrons... I will have to claim they do not exist. And who constructed the Inevitables?

Baatorians aren't necessarily evil, and Obyriths weren't more Abyssal. The Obyriths are more natural in some ways then the Tannari; they reproduce only through mating. The Baatorians weren't picked because they were the pure form of Lawful Evil; they just happened to exist on a mostly empty plane of existence and were easier to wipe out then the demons. The two groups coming earlier doesn't make them more powerful or pure (though the Obyriths were individually stronger on average) it just meant they came first.

Urpriest
2011-01-03, 11:20 PM
Since no one will tell me where to find 3.5 Modrons... I will have to claim they do not exist. And who constructed the Inevitables?

Baatorians aren't necessarily evil, and Obyriths weren't more Abyssal. The Obyriths are more natural in some ways then the Tannari; they reproduce only through mating. The Baatorians weren't picked because they were the pure form of Lawful Evil; they just happened to exist on a mostly empty plane of existence and were easier to wipe out then the demons. The two groups coming earlier doesn't make them more powerful or pure (though the Obyriths were individually stronger on average) it just meant they came first.

The Inevitables construct themselves in hidden construct-factories. Modrons were described in greater or lesser detail in various Dragon articles in 3.5.

Psyren
2011-01-03, 11:21 PM
Since no one will tell me where to find 3.5 Modrons... I will have to claim they do not exist.

To be honest I'm not too sorry they weren't officially converted... most of them look pretty silly to me.

Inevitables, on the other hand, are engineered badass spliced with awesome, even when they have the cheapest abilities I've ever read.

LOTRfan
2011-01-03, 11:22 PM
Since no one will tell me where to find 3.5 Modrons... I will have to claim they do not exist. And who constructed the Inevitables?


Also, Modrons are constructs in 3.5e, so Formians are the actual exemplar race of Lawful Neutral. Strangely enough, the player race for Modrons are living constructs, while every modron giving statistics is just a common construct. :smallconfused:

Dragon Magazine #354, specifically.

afroakuma
2011-01-03, 11:58 PM
If you want to get technical, Demons aren't the exemplars of the Abyss, and neither are Devils the exemplars of Baator. Obyrinths are the true Chaotic Evil exemplars, and demons are just their pathetic slave-race. Baatorians were the original inhabitants of Hell before Asmodeus brought his adventuring party down there and cleaned them out to make way for his knock-offs made out of fallen Archons.

Obyriths are demons, though, and Baatorians would be "devils." That's what they are. I bracketed them for ease. Also, whether the natives or not, Tanar'ri are the result of mortal souls entering The Abyss and are most definitely its exemplars. Baatezu are considered an Exemplar race, though they aren't natural, because they are the result of mortal souls coming to the plane.

Also, I left out the Rilmani for the Outlands.


Also, Modrons are constructs in 3.5e, so Formians are the actual exemplar race of Lawful Neutral.

They weren't in 3.0, though; there, they were just poorly-statted outsiders. Planescape definitively noted them as the exemplars of Lawful Neutral. I'll be completing my own conversion of them shortly.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 12:12 AM
Inevitables, on the other hand, are engineered badass spliced with awesome, even when they have the cheapest abilities I've ever read.

You mean especially when they have the cheapest abilities you have ever read. Maruts are awesome! They have kinda low health though for some reason; they are also kinda open to Greater Dissuade Undead (IE Disintegrate) since they have a low fort save and aren't immune to it like a Golem is.

Is there an actual book that details their creation/creators and the cost of making one? Because an army of Maruts would do pretty well in crushing the abyss.

Urpriest
2011-01-04, 12:14 AM
Is there an actual book that details their creation/creators and the cost of making one? Because an army of Maruts would do pretty well in crushing the abyss.

Far as I can tell they're like Warforged: intentionally without creation rules.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 12:25 AM
Far as I can tell they're like Warforged: intentionally without creation rules.

>:/ That was because Warforged made no sense! And if they gave me a cost I could prove it!

And my Cleric needs a Marut for a shield guardian. He won't feel safe at night otherwise!

Urpriest
2011-01-04, 12:27 AM
>:/ That was because Warforged made no sense! And if they gave me a cost I could prove it!

And my Cleric needs a Marut for a shield guardian. He won't feel safe at night otherwise!

Well for a Cleric that's easy: Planar Ally. Go for Thaumaturgist if you really want to keep it around.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 12:30 AM
Well for a Cleric that's easy: Planar Ally. Go for Thaumaturgist if you really want to keep it around.

But I want to construct one. Then I can make it a half-iron golem so that it is immune to most magic! And if it doesn't work I simply leave and let it kill all of the creatures in the area. If it does work I get a godless killing machine!

afroakuma
2011-01-04, 02:29 AM
But I want to construct one. Then I can make it a half-iron golem so that it is immune to most magic! And if it doesn't work I simply leave and let it kill all of the creatures in the area. If it does work I get a godless killing machine!

You can't build inevitables. They are formed by the crêche-forges of Mechanus.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 02:33 AM
You can't build inevitables. They are formed by the crêche-forges of Mechanus.

I can to! Just because they are made in Machanus doesn't mean I can't craft them; I can simply go there to do it!

Seriously though; they need to make rules for crafting the various sentient constructs. As is I just house rule Awaken as if the construct was double its normal size for penalties.

afroakuma
2011-01-04, 02:54 AM
I can to! Just because they are made in Machanus doesn't mean I can't craft them; I can simply go there to do it!

It's not about the plane; it's about the process. Crêche-forges are immense arcane foundries linked to the master directors of all inevitables. They create a new inevitable to serve a specific purpose, and only if a suitable one is not currently available. Each is essentially an artifact the size of an enormous factory, and under the direction of a vast immortal intellect. Remember, inevitables are not individual agents; they are a transplanar police force.


Seriously though; they need to make rules for crafting the various sentient constructs. As is I just house rule Awaken as if the construct was double its normal size for penalties.

The problem is that a sentient construct has no reason to bother with you. Even if you could somehow assemble a marut yourself (out of the parts of various other maruts, say) it would immediately act of its own volition, which in its case would be reporting to Mechanus for destruction.

Tvtyrant
2011-01-04, 02:58 AM
Again, which book are you getting this information from? The MM says they can and in fact have to be reprogrammed frequently to fix their slipping from Lawful due to contradictions in orders (Don't kill innocents/kill anything that gets in your way). Unless you can give me a book where it states a deeper background for them there is no reason I couldn't reprogram it to believe that my survival is the single most important weapon in advancing law.

hamishspence
2011-01-04, 04:32 AM
he's a monstrosity with Regeneration 50 (who reforms automatically 1d4 days later even if you manage to bypass his Regeneration and kill him - despite the fact that his Regeneration isn't bypassed by anything),

Tarrasque regeneration isn't bypassed by anything- but a Wish can still cause it to die.
Maybe Zargon works like this- if you Wish, he dies- but comes back 1d4 days later- unless you destroy his horn.

Eldan
2011-01-04, 05:11 AM
Also, Modrons are constructs in 3.5e, so Formians are the actual exemplar race of Lawful Neutral. Strangely enough, the player race for Modrons are living constructs, while every modron giving statistics is just a common construct. :smallconfused:

Actually, Planescape notes that Formians originally hail from Arcadia and only reached Mechanus when the Harmonium screwed up and managed to shift a layer of Arcadia into Mechanus.
Since then, the Formians have waged war on the Modrons.

They were also in the Web Enhancement of the Manual of the Planes.

magellan
2011-01-04, 05:39 AM
In an old 2nd ed planescape adventure (I think it was fires of dis, not too sure though) there were the "stats" for a dormant true baatorian. Though the author wasn't very creative. It's just an unkillable shadowy thing that drains hps by the minute from everything around it. *shrugs*

Trekkin
2011-01-04, 06:13 AM
Again, which book are you getting this information from? The MM says they can and in fact have to be reprogrammed frequently to fix their slipping from Lawful due to contradictions in orders (Don't kill innocents/kill anything that gets in your way). Unless you can give me a book where it states a deeper background for them there is no reason I couldn't reprogram it to believe that my survival is the single most important weapon in advancing law.

If I recall correctly, there was an article in Dragon 341 called Ecology of the Inevitable. That might have it.

Amiel
2011-01-04, 06:48 AM
I know that Devils and Demons don't get along, what with the "Always Lawful Evil" and "Always Chaotic Evil" respectively, but where do the "Always Good" Outsiders fit into this? Are Angels and Archons the opposites of these two, or there another faction not covered in the monster manual (like the Yugoloths, for example)? And speaking of which, what is the Neutral Good equivalent of the Yugoloths?

Angels can usually be of any G alignment, the other celestials (as defined within the context of D&D) are as follows: Archons are LG, Eladrin (Planescape and 3/3.5e) are CG and Guardinals are NG. Guardinals are a decisive subject, some people like them, some people hate them with the passion of ten thousand burning suns.

Oh, there's also the Asuras (who are CG and said to be the pariahs of the heavens; fierce warriors, they neither give nor ask for quarter and are prone - some say unwisely - to engaging - the asuras would use decimating - fiends on their home-planes), the quesars are angelic, sapient constructs created by the aasimon as soldiers in the ever-present war against evil. They rebelled against their creators and became embroiled in conflict. Both factions were told in uncertain terms that armed rebellion and servitude and suppression of free will had no place in Elysium; the aasimon in question might have been from Celestia or Arcadia.

Geopolitical differences between the factions do arise. However, this will never descend into the farce of war. The forces of the Heavens likely have Great Forums where the collective angelic host can debate in civilised discourse.

Despite perceived differences and disputes between the Chaos-Law alignment axis, archons would side with eladrin more willingly and readily than they would side with devils. Same goes for the eladrin and demons.


And why don't Angels have fancy names?

Angels, despite a few questionable specimens (Triel, Belial et al), are on the whole possessed of humility. They don't need fancy names :smalltongue:


I know that's a ton of questions, but thanks for anyone who cares to answer :smallcool:

No worries!
Free feel to send some more questions our way :)

Eldan
2011-01-04, 07:01 AM
Despite perceived differences and disputes between the Chaos-Law alignment axis, archons would side with eladrin more willingly and readily than they would side with devils. Same goes for the eladrin and demons.


While this is technically true, it is also mentioned that both Archons and Eladrin have an interested in "their" side, the Tanar'ri in the case of the Eladrin, and the Baatezu in the case of the Archons, not losing the Blood War, because to them, that's worse than the alternative. The freedom-loving Eladrin could never stand infernal oppression, the organized archons can't stand the chaos and destruction of the Abyss.

Therefore, they are more likely to attack one side of the Blood War than the other, or even lend a hand if absolutely necessary. There are celestial weapon traders, even. An entire organization actually works to keep the Blood War running for all eternity, balancing the sides out as necessary to prevent the fiends from ganging up on the celestials.

Amiel
2011-01-04, 07:12 AM
While this is technically true, it is also mentioned that both Archons and Eladrin have an interested in "their" side, the Tanar'ri in the case of the Eladrin, and the Baatezu in the case of the Archons, not losing the Blood War, because to them, that's worse than the alternative. The freedom-loving Eladrin could never stand infernal oppression, the organized archons can't stand the chaos and destruction of the Abyss.

Such agreements and understandings may be informal or unstated; I would think the celestials would place more import in their goodly alignment than any alliance within an extreme Law or Chaos bracket :) eladrins and archons wouldn't grieve over opposed philosophies and beliefs that their cause for good is compromised.


Therefore, they are more likely to attack one side of the Blood War than the other, or even lend a hand if absolutely necessary. There are celestial weapon traders, even. An entire organization actually works to keep the Blood War running for all eternity, balancing the sides out as necessary to prevent the fiends from ganging up on the celestials.

Indeed, though these may be few and far between. I read in Faces of Sigil that the three who engage in arms-trafficking with the fiends are viewed as mavericks and perhaps dissidents by their brethren.

I agree that the celestials, in their wisdom, would find ways to ensure that no side truly triumphs and that good prevails.
Neutral exemplars (neutral neutral) would also move to unilaterally trim back any force, if it felt any side was gaining the upper hand.

Eldan
2011-01-04, 07:14 AM
Like the Rilmani?

I loved that dude in Faces of Sigil.

"Remember every cataclysm on every prime world ever? That was me."

Amiel
2011-01-04, 07:20 AM
Like the Rilmani?

Yeah, the rilmani, pity they didn't get fleshed out for 3rd edition. They were a really intriguing faction.


I loved that dude in Faces of Sigil.

"Remember every cataclysm on every prime world ever? That was me."

Me too :D


Speaking of which, Lappy, if you ever get the chance, you should get Faces of Sigil.

Eldan
2011-01-04, 07:35 AM
I'm still angry about that.

Ray Vallese, the original author, auctioned off his copy of Faces of Sigil on ebay. For ten dollars.

And some **** sniped me in the last fifteen seconds.

afroakuma
2011-01-04, 11:34 AM
Again, which book are you getting this information from?

Though the Dragon article is useful, I know you won't accept it - so let's look to the Manual of the Planes, where it states that the factory required to craft Inevitables takes up a whole lesser gear. Within are massive mechanisms staffed by other specialized constructs, and the whole is directed and supervised by the Elders, who also create and correct the programming of an Inevitable. Elder Evils gives us the very interesting tidbit that if an Inevitable fails, a stronger one is crafted and sent out to do its job, meaning the Elders can upgrade their models when necessary.


The MM says they can and in fact have to be reprogrammed frequently to fix their slipping from Lawful due to contradictions in orders (Don't kill innocents/kill anything that gets in your way).

Which they are aware of, hence their voluntary return for programming upon recall. Any inevitable who starts going off-kilter would be recalled by the Elders.

Oh, and for added fun - if you did succeed in reprogramming an Inevitable, you would likely find it destroyed rather quickly from the deluge of zelekhuts dispatched to deal with the "fugitive from reprogramming." And as noted above, they get stronger.

In the main, though, you're still dealing with the unknown of "how powerful are the forge Elders" - and the answer exists in crunch, essentially: Kolyaruts and Zelekhuts have no autonomous means to return to Mechanus, which means the Elders have a method for recalling Inevitables from other planes. As plane shift requires touch, it's probably gate.

Frankly, if you want a superconstruct, just design one and then toss the right spells in. Lightning bolt, shout, magic circle against chaos and whatever SLAs you want it to have, stacked onto a reasonable cost for the body itself, should be reasonable for any DM and personalizes it to boot.

afroakuma
2011-01-06, 12:16 AM
I realize I forgot to add in how immensely helpful you've all been. Especially you, Afro. You made a dang table for this!

Well, you know this is my area of extreme obsession expertise. Heck, I already have the denizens of the intermediary planes in progress, along with a modron rebuild (to go with my lovely slaad) and a... well, you'll see. :smallwink:

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 01:59 AM
Found it! Neumannus is the cog of Mechanus where the Inevitables build each other; they don't remember who built the first but the rest are built by other Inevitables.

Mr. Anderson.

Eldan
2011-01-06, 03:15 AM
Wait, they honestly named it "Neumannus"? That's glorious. Just glorious. :smallbiggrin:

Yora
2011-01-06, 06:01 AM
German is an exotic language. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2011-01-06, 06:07 AM
It's more likely a reference to this Neumann. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_neumann_machine) Which I think is fairly well known in America. (He was a Hungarian-American (I think)).

Yora
2011-01-06, 06:33 AM
But it still sounds exotic. They wouldn't have called it Jacksonus or Millerus or something like that. :smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2011-01-06, 06:36 AM
True. I'd like to build a plane named Millerus now, but that would be a tad unclear: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_surname_Miller

Is Jacksonus the plane of scary black men or the plane of 70s-90s pop singers?

Amiel
2011-01-06, 08:07 AM
[...]the Dragon article
I liked the quote prefacing the article. "Let justice be done, though the heavens fall". Although it would've been made especially better if they'd also used the Latin in accompaniment, Fiat justitia ruat caelum.

dsmiles
2011-01-06, 08:27 AM
It's more likely a reference to this Neumann. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Von_neumann_machine) Which I think is fairly well known in America. (He was a Hungarian-American (I think)).

I'm not sure about his ethnic origins, but I do believe that the cog is named after the VonNeumann machine, due to the whole self-replication thing.

Also, about Millerus, if you went with the original connotation of the surname, it could just be a plane of level 1 experts with max ranks in Profession (Miller). :smalltongue:

EDIT: Alternatively, you could use a whole plane of Sienna Miller clones. I'd be down with that. :smallwink:

Eldan
2011-01-06, 08:42 AM
We already have Bytopia for level one millers :smallwink:

And that is the Neumann the self-replicating machines are named after, which is why I named him.

afroakuma
2011-01-06, 04:05 PM
We already have Bytopia for level one millers :smallwink:

Oh, don't remind me about Bytopia. So far it's proven to be the hardest one to populate. :smallsigh:

Tvtyrant
2011-01-06, 04:14 PM
I thought Neumannus was a great play on words as well, since it also has "new man" in it, and the inevitables are exactly that.

Arcane_Secrets
2011-01-07, 03:37 AM
You mean especially when they have the cheapest abilities you have ever read. Maruts are awesome! They have kinda low health though for some reason; they are also kinda open to Greater Dissuade Undead (IE Disintegrate) since they have a low fort save and aren't immune to it like a Golem is.

Is there an actual book that details their creation/creators and the cost of making one? Because an army of Maruts would do pretty well in crushing the abyss.

I sort of am inclined to a different cosmology so I would say that their creators are the Vaati instead. Beyond that, my initial idea is that you can't actually create a Marut off of a strongly lawful plane and have them both animate and arise properly sentient. You should be able to create them in Mechanus ideally; perhaps trying to create them in either Acheron or Arcadia makes them a little 'off' in their operating parameters and tainted with either evil or good respectively.

This gives me sort of an idea where Maugs might've come from...

As far as the costs of making one are concerned, it's going to be extremely steep, given that you would have to be able to cast all of the spells that the Marut can cast upon it. I also suspect that awaken construct isn't used in the creation for philosophical reasons (namely the idea that the Marut is more loyal to law conceptually than necessarily to its creator), but perhaps wish and similar spells/powers grant it sentience as the final step.