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gbprime
2011-01-04, 08:38 PM
The powers that be may have struck him down for the foul art of thread necromancy, but Lestroisrois tried to raise an interesting point about the Launch Bolt spell. He stated that you could use it with eschew materials to launch ballista bolts for 6d8 with this cantrip.

But you forgot one thing.

Read the spell. The TARGET of the spell is the crossbow bolt. If you use eschew materials and have no crossbow bolt, then your spell has no target.

Nice try though. it still might work with a magic quiver full of ballista bolts and a real BAB...

Reynard
2011-01-04, 09:16 PM
Wouldn't using larger-sized crossbow bolts give you non-proficiency troubles anyway?

gbprime
2011-01-04, 10:06 PM
No, it's still a crossbow, so you'd be proficient in it. It's the size of the weapon that gives minuses. but since you're just launching the bolt with a spell, I don't think that counts.

Oh, and a ballista only does 3d8. Still... cantrip.

Reynard
2011-01-04, 10:11 PM
No. A medium-sized crossbow fires medium sized bolts. If you used Launch Bolt (only works on crossbow bolts, after all) on a Colossal bolt (Or whatever), you'd have needed a Colossal crossbow to fire it. A you can't use a weapon that's not your Size without penalties.

Launch Bolts works explicitly as firing a light crossbow.

Eldan
2011-01-05, 05:29 AM
I can hold a piano in two hands alright. Just not lift it :smalltongue:

Curmudgeon
2011-01-05, 06:52 AM
Wouldn't using larger-sized crossbow bolts give you non-proficiency troubles anyway?

You cast this spell on a crossbow bolt, causing it to fly at a target of your choice as if you had fired it from a light crossbow, using a ranged attack roll. Not non-proficiency penalties (since Wizards and Sorcerers are proficient with light crossbows), but rather inappropriate size penalties.
Inappropriately Sized Weapons

A creature canít make optimum use of a weapon that isnít properly sized for it. A cumulative -2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isnít proficient with the weapon a -4 nonproficiency penalty also applies. A ballista isn't a light crossbow, so trying Launch Bolt with a ballista bolt would cause the spell to fail.
Ballista: A ballista is essentially a Huge heavy crossbow fixed in place.

Greenish
2011-01-05, 10:17 AM
Launch Bolt specifies that the bolt to be fired by the spell is the material component of the spell.

A material component is one or more physical substances or objects that are annihilated by the spell energies in the casting process.What are you shooting, then? :smallamused:

Curmudgeon
2011-01-05, 10:47 AM
Launch Bolt specifies that the bolt to be fired by the spell is the material component of the spell.
What are you shooting, then? :smallamused:
That's not the only oddity of Launch Bolt. The crossbow bolt must be a 1 sp bolt, or you're not able to cast the cantrip. So a larger bolt which costs more, or a reduced price from the Haggle use of Diplomacy (Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99), invalidates the spell. :smallconfused:

Greenish
2011-01-05, 10:49 AM
That's not the only oddity of Launch Bolt. The crossbow bolt must be a 1 sp bolt, or you're not able to cast the cantrip. So a larger bolt which costs more, or a reduced price from the Haggle use of Diplomacy (Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99), invalidates the spell. :smallconfused:The spell also specifies that if you use a masterwork or magical bolt, you get all the normal benefits, but obviously you can't use anything so expensive.

Duke of URL
2011-01-05, 10:53 AM
Launch Bolt specifies that the bolt to be fired by the spell is the material component of the spell.

Which is odd, as it behaves more like a focus component. If you read it literally as a material component, it must always be consumed as part of the spell, and not subject to the normal "did the ammo get destroyed?" situation. It makes more sense for it to be a focus component that may be consumed as part of the spell, based on the normal percentages.

RndmNumGen
2011-01-05, 10:56 AM
That's not the only oddity of Launch Bolt. The crossbow bolt must be a 1 sp bolt, or you're not able to cast the cantrip. So a larger bolt which costs more, or a reduced price from the Haggle use of Diplomacy (Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99), invalidates the spell. :smallconfused:

What if you haggle down a larger bolt so it's 1 sp?

Where did you find information on ballistas btw? Sounds interesting, I would like to read up on them. Is there things like catapults too?

Curmudgeon
2011-01-05, 11:09 AM
Where did you find information on ballistas btw?
Siege engines are covered in the Dungeon Master's Guide on pages 99-100.

Prime32
2011-01-05, 02:41 PM
Which is odd, as it behaves more like a focus component. If you read it literally as a material component, it must always be consumed as part of the spell, and not subject to the normal "did the ammo get destroyed?" situation. It makes more sense for it to be a focus component that may be consumed as part of the spell, based on the normal percentages.Some of the writers tend to get material and focus components confused. Like a spell which enhances items having the item as a material component.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-05, 02:57 PM
Some of the writers tend to get material and focus components confused. Like a spell which enhances items having the item as a material component.

Giant's Wrath is another good one...the material components are the pebbles you throw, which transform into boulders as they hit your target.

Mando Knight
2011-01-05, 05:16 PM
That's not the only oddity of Launch Bolt. The crossbow bolt must be a 1 sp bolt, or you're not able to cast the cantrip. So a larger bolt which costs more, or a reduced price from the Haggle use of Diplomacy (Complete Adventurer, pages 98-99), invalidates the spell. :smallconfused:

See also here (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html).

Kalaska'Agathas
2011-01-05, 07:39 PM
So how do you all think Eschew Materials interacts with Launch Bolt/Giant's Wrath? Also, where can I find this Giant's Wrath spell?

Darrin
2011-01-05, 08:01 PM
Siege engines are covered in the Dungeon Master's Guide on pages 99-100.

Yes, which I believe contains the oddity that human-sized ballistas are identified as huge-sized crossbows, and hence human crews take a -4 size penalty to use them.

*shameful head-jiggles*

jumpet
2011-01-05, 09:51 PM
Yes, which I believe contains the oddity that human-sized ballistas are identified as huge-sized crossbows, and hence human crews take a -4 size penalty to use them.

*shameful head-jiggles*

One of the source books reworked ballistae, it might've been the heroes of battle. I forget. Anyway ballistae were effectively reclassified as something else (ie not simply big crossbows), and the damage was increased significantly. So that would probably invalidate the launch bolt trick. Then again I don't have the book on me, so can't verify the detail.

Curmudgeon
2011-01-05, 10:00 PM
One of the source books reworked ballistae, it might've been the heroes of battle. I forget. Anyway ballistae were effectively reclassified as something else.
Sorry, your memory is playing tricks on you. Heroes of Battle didn't reclassify ballistae at all. It did, however, add a Ballista Proficiency feat to remove the attack penalty; and added rules for enhancing such weapons with magic for more effective performance.

Darrin
2011-01-05, 11:22 PM
Sorry, your memory is playing tricks on you. Heroes of Battle didn't reclassify ballistae at all. It did, however, add a Ballista Proficiency feat to remove the attack penalty; and added rules for enhancing such weapons with magic for more effective performance.

I had no idea that the designers had compounded the idiocy even further. Being proficient with the ballista has absolutely nothing to do with the size penalty. Even if a medium-sized creature takes that feat, they still have a -4 penalty for attacking with a huge-sized crossbow.

Trekkin
2011-01-05, 11:32 PM
Could you cast Shrink Item on a ballista bolt, then cast Launch Bolt on the resulting crossbow bolt? The former deactivates when it hits a solid surface, and most things you'd hit with crossbow bolts are solid enough.

The Glyphstone
2011-01-05, 11:37 PM
So how do you all think Eschew Materials interacts with Launch Bolt/Giant's Wrath? Also, where can I find this Giant's Wrath spell?

Spell Compendium. 3rd level Sorc/Wiz, I believe. It's a fairly nice combat spell, though you run out of ammo fast.

jumpet
2011-01-06, 05:09 AM
Sorry, your memory is playing tricks on you. Heroes of Battle didn't reclassify ballistae at all. It did, however, add a Ballista Proficiency feat to remove the attack penalty; and added rules for enhancing such weapons with magic for more effective performance.

Pg 64 classifies them as a Catapult. Thats what I was thinking off. On the next page under the ballista description it says. "This torsion-powered catapult looks rather like a huge crossbow that launches large harpoonlike bolts..."

So my memory wasn't so bad. Whether you read this as a ballista equalling a crossbow with regards to the launch bolt spell, I think that will depend on individual intrepretation.

Further more for the siege weapons, all stats given are for 'medium' sized catapults etc. As you said you need the ballista proficiency, further adding weight to the idea that they are more than crossbow. (ie crossbow proficiency doesn't cut it) You need prof: siege weapons to load and make attack rolls of Bab + int to hit.

As a general comment on the siege weapons rules, the rules are infact very cumbersome. I have actually played a session with them and we just started approximating loading times. The whole crew spendign full-round actions with pro: siege engineer check just bogged the game down.

Vizzerdrix
2011-01-06, 07:34 AM
Hmm... I hd a build based around Launch Bolt once. It used splitting and some meta magic cheddar :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2011-01-06, 08:06 AM
Could you cast Shrink Item on a ballista bolt, then cast Launch Bolt on the resulting crossbow bolt? The former deactivates when it hits a solid surface, and most things you'd hit with crossbow bolts are solid enough.
In addition to other issues (such as the 1 sp cost specification), the problem with this scheme is that bolts are destroyed on impact. So there's nothing solid left to grow back to original size, and Shrink Item only works on a single item, not a collection of fragments.

gbprime
2011-01-06, 01:07 PM
Hmm... I hd a build based around Launch Bolt once. It used splitting and some meta magic cheddar :smallsmile:

Everything goes good with cheddar. It just might not go into your DM's game. :smallamused:

My favorite is still hooking up Warmage and Dracolexi and getting Power Word Pain in as a zero level spell with free Extend spell and then overdosing on Warmage Edge. 15 damage a round for 4d4 or 2d4 rounds from a cantrip.

Vizzerdrix
2011-01-06, 01:10 PM
All I remember is that I could launch CL+1 bolts all at one time as a first level spell (and if they all had splitting.... :smallamused:).

Ravenv13
2013-12-07, 09:36 PM
http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/SRD:Light_Crossbow

I would like to point out that you may use crossbow bolts sized for a colossal light crossbow (see above), With the launch bolt spell (see below).
{Scrubbed}

The Glyphstone
2013-12-08, 04:10 PM
Great Modthulhu: And thus a thread created to discuss something brought up via thread necromancy is itself necroed. The cycle continues.