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SilverLeaf167
2011-01-05, 07:32 AM
Does anybody know how the Monster Manual cat can even survive in nature? All of its attacks deal negative damage... (1d2-4, 1d3-1)
And why does everyone make jokes about cats killing commoners?

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 07:38 AM
Minimum damage an attack can inflict is 1 point.

Since a cat has a high AC, and multiple attacks- it can shred a commoner in fairly short order.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-05, 07:43 AM
Oh, right. I forgot that thing about minimum damage thing :P
I guess that's enough to kill a rat with single hit...

Yora
2011-01-05, 07:44 AM
And cats can full attack for 3 attacks per round.

ZeroNumerous
2011-01-05, 07:46 AM
And, of course, cats have high enough Hide and Move Silently to always get a surprise round.

Ducklord
2011-01-05, 07:47 AM
They don't get pounce, do they? Otherwise they'd really be nasty.

Coidzor
2011-01-05, 07:49 AM
They don't get pounce, do they? Otherwise they'd really be nasty.

No, they don't, but they probably should, to continue in the vein of feline type creatures.

Also, compare the cat against its prey, the raven(taken as fairly representative of such small birds and songbirds) and the rat.

The raven has a spot and listen of +7, and +5, which opposes the cat's +16 to hide(either 12 normally or 20 in tall grass, I'm not sure which) and +8 to move silently, where the advantage in hunting the raven is to the cat, despite them having similar armor classes, the cat has multiple attacks to counterbalance this while the raven has one. And the raven has a minus -1 to its grapple relative to that of the cat.

The rat, on the other hand, is actually better at moving silently than the cat, though in general, their behavior would lead to the rat avoiding the cat rather than attempting to ambush it. With it's +16 to hide and +10 to move silently, the rat is quite difficult for the cat's +3 to listen and spot to detect when the rat is hiding and moving silently. Similarly though, the rat is effectively blind to the cat as well, with it having a +1 to spot and listen. A game of cat and mouse, if you will.

Though, since it's in the same size category as the cat, this is still a very large rat. A mouse would be diminutive, though I'm not sure what the usual size of wild rats is, and thus having a higher AC and being even harder for the cat to find when it hides and moves silently... IIRC, ships' rats are the ones that are supposed to have gotten as big as cats and terriers. So I'm not sure how representative they are of the creatures that cats would call prey, considering adventurers can kill them for XP without them being a swarm.

Asheram
2011-01-05, 07:51 AM
Now wasn't it a bit 50-50... or was it 75-25... that a cat could kill a commoner?

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-05, 08:00 AM
No, they don't have pounce, but they probably should, to continue in the vein of feline type creatures.
Housecats really rarely make "full attacks" after pouncing, unlike lions do. They might cause a scratch or two, but they come from trying to hold the prey in place. The bite is the thing that kills the prey. They only start using their claws if the initial attack doesn't do the job.

Yora
2011-01-05, 08:01 AM
When you have the suprise round, you don't need to pounce. Run to the target as your suprise round action. Then win initiative and begin the first combat round with a full attack.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 08:02 AM
Cats are also not the only animal that does the classic "pounce" style attack.

Foxes, when hunting mice, do the same.

Foxes, despite being canine- are very catlike in some ways- some climbing ability- typically nocturnal- commonly pounce on mice- and have eye pupils that can be closed to slits.

Eldan
2011-01-05, 08:03 AM
Now wasn't it a bit 50-50... or was it 75-25... that a cat could kill a commoner?

Pretty good, actually. The typical commoner with straight tens to all stats and a simple weapon deals potentially more damage, but the cat has the better armour, more and more accurate attacks, higher initiative, and can most likely ambush.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-05, 08:10 AM
Cats are also not the only animal that does the classic "pounce" style attack.

Foxes, when hunting mice, do the same.

Foxes, despite being canine- are very catlike in some ways- some climbing ability- typically nocturnal- commonly pounce on mice- and have eye pupils that can be closed to slits.
In case someone didn't understand, I meant they don't Pounce in D&D mechanic terms. In the game, it's probably more like a jumping charge, followed by a bite attack.

Coidzor
2011-01-05, 08:11 AM
In case someone didn't understand, I meant they don't Pounce in D&D mechanic terms. In the game, it's probably more like a jumping charge, followed by a bite attack.

So the fleshraker's leaping pounce routine.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 08:14 AM
In case someone didn't understand, I meant they don't Pounce in D&D mechanic terms. In the game, it's probably more like a jumping charge, followed by a bite attack.

Yup. Cat's don't need the pounce ability to fight and hunt like real cats- the point being made was other animals fight (and act) a bit like cats as well.

"leaping pounce" probably isn't necessary though.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-05, 08:20 AM
Are there any real world instances of cants killing people? I'd assume not, but then I remembered how well my assumptions usually turn out...

Also, does anyone else get the feeling this thread will end up summoning the Cat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TM)?

Yora
2011-01-05, 08:27 AM
These ones?
http://www.tokyopop.com/ugc/2/1/8/8/5/8/u//images/1082792.jpg

Zeta Kai
2011-01-05, 08:29 AM
Housecats really rarely make "full attacks" after pouncing, unlike lions do. They might cause a scratch or two, but they come from trying to hold the prey in place. The bite is the thing that kills the prey. They only start using their claws if the initial attack doesn't do the job.

Against an opponent of equal or larger size, your average cat will commonly employ something akin to a rake attack: they will grip their foe with their front claws, while scratching & scraping with their rear claws. This is potentially their most damaging attack in RL, even more so than their bite. I've seen the aftermath of such fights, & its ugliness is only exceeded by its speed & efficiency. Ugh...

Psyren
2011-01-05, 08:30 AM
These ones?
http://www.tokyopop.com/ugc/2/1/8/8/5/8/u//images/1082792.jpg

That's what they want you to think. But let your guard down for a moment and they're shredding commoners with impunity.

Please, think of the commoners.

Gullintanni
2011-01-05, 08:31 AM
Are there any real world instances of cants killing people? I'd assume not, but then I remembered how well my assumptions usually turn out...

Also, does anyone else get the feeling this thread will end up summoning the Cat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TM)?

I think the Cat thusly invoked was in fact, Snuggles.


Snuggles the Death Kitty
Pseudonatural Paragon Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: d8+19 (28 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 180 ft. (36 squares)
Armor Class: 91 (+2 size, +15 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +40 natural), touch 51, flat-footed 81
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+28
Attack: Claw +62 melee (1d2+35)
Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +62 melee (1d2+35) and bite +60 melee (1d3+35)
Full Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant Insight, Improved Grab, Rotting Constriction
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Spell-like Abilities, Resist (Fire, Cold) 10, Resist (Electricity, Acid) 15, DR 10/epic, SR 40, Fast Healing 20, Epic Strike
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +23
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 35, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +17, Hide +16*, Jump +15, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +13*
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(B), Multiattack (B)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Hopefully alone
Challenge Rating: 31

Snuggles receives a +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35); 3/day - greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility (CL 15). DCs are Charisma-based

Constant Insight (Su)
Snuggles is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex)
If Snuggles hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once Snuggles has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check he makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, Snuggles regains 10 lost hit points.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, Snuggles can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against Snuggles in this alternate form.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 08:31 AM
Also, does anyone else get the feeling this thread will end up summoning the Cat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named (TM)?

Can't find it here:
Homebrew Cat thread (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=165573)

though I suspect someone might come up with one by that name.
Or Catthulu.

Yora
2011-01-05, 08:32 AM
Against an opponent of equal or larger size, your average cat will commonly employ something akin to a rake attack: they will grip their foe with their front claws, while scratching & scraping with their rear claws. This is potentially their most damaging attack in RL, even more so than their bite. I've seen the aftermath of such fights, & its ugliness is only exceeded by its speed & efficiency. Ugh...
The worst part is, that most cats apparently do it purely because of it's entertainment value.

Foryn Gilnith
2011-01-05, 08:32 AM
the rat is quite difficult for the cat's +3 to listen and spot to detect when the rat is hiding and moving silently. Similarly though, the rat is effectively blind to the cat as well.

This is why the D&D stealth v. perception system is :smallfrown:
Two random pixies should not epically fail at finding each other any more than two random humans should epically fail at finding each other.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-01-05, 08:33 AM
These ones?
http://www.tokyopop.com/ugc/2/1/8/8/5/8/u//images/1082792.jpg

No.

Yarn for the Yarn Throne! Milk for the milk bowl!

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-05, 08:36 AM
Against an opponent of equal or larger size, your average cat will commonly employ something akin to a rake attack: they will grip their foe with their front claws, while scratching & scraping with their rear claws. This is potentially their most damaging attack in RL, even more so than their bite. I've seen the aftermath of such fights, & its ugliness is only exceeded by its speed & efficiency. Ugh...
Well, yeah... the tactics vary a lot according to the situation. Maybe they should give cat's bite attack a disease? If a cat REALLY bites you, it's almost sure to get infected, sometimes very seriously. I once got a potentially deadly infection in my leg from a single cat bite, and even with medication it took over half a year to heal completely. The bite marks are still visible.

Eldariel
2011-01-05, 08:36 AM
Pretty good, actually. The typical commoner with straight tens to all stats and a simple weapon deals potentially more damage, but the cat has the better armour, more and more accurate attacks, higher initiative, and can most likely ambush.

NPC Commoner also has a grand total of 2 HP (Avg. from 1d4 + 0 from Con), so yeah... He can one-shot the cat, but the chances of him hitting once before the cat hits him twice are kind of mediocre due to his +0 attack vs. Cat's AC of 14, and Cat's 3 attacks at +4/+4/-1 vs. his AC of 10 (or 13 if we give him a Hide Armor...which doesn't really make sense and he isn't even proficient so prolly not). Oh, and Cat has way better Initiative.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-05, 08:42 AM
I think the Cat thusly invoked was in fact, Snuggles.

Snuggles the Death Kitty
Pseudonatural Paragon Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: d8+19 (28 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 180 ft. (36 squares)
Armor Class: 91 (+2 size, +15 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +40 natural), touch 51, flat-footed 81
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+28
Attack: Claw +62 melee (1d2+35)
Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +62 melee (1d2+35) and bite +60 melee (1d3+35)
Full Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant Insight, Improved Grab, Rotting Constriction
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Spell-like Abilities, Resist (Fire, Cold) 10, Resist (Electricity, Acid) 15, DR 10/epic, SR 40, Fast Healing 20, Epic Strike
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +23
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 35, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +17, Hide +16*, Jump +15, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +13*
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(B), Multiattack (B)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Hopefully alone
Challenge Rating: 31

Snuggles receives a +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35); 3/day - greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility (CL 15). DCs are Charisma-based

Constant Insight (Su)
Snuggles is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex)
If Snuggles hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once Snuggles has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check he makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, Snuggles regains 10 lost hit points.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, Snuggles can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against Snuggles in this alternate form.

Yup. That'd be him!

Hanuman
2011-01-05, 09:00 AM
Does anybody know how the Monster Manual cat can even survive in nature? All of its attacks deal negative damage... (1d2-4, 1d3-1)
And why does everyone make jokes about cats killing commoners?
By your logic it probably gets worshiped by having a healing touch, it's claws cause negative damage.

Myth
2011-01-05, 09:02 AM
This gives me an idea, of an Effigy Master making a cat effigy.

Greenish
2011-01-05, 09:09 AM
How about a kobold commoner?

AC 12, claw/claw/bite, though at -1/-1/-6, but then with 1d3-1, they'd all have a chance to one-shot the cat.

[Edit]: Then again, a cat could kill one in the surprise round.

Duke of URL
2011-01-05, 09:12 AM
Remember, too, that you should assume the "monster" listing for a cat is for a feral, aggressive one. The domesticated variety should at least treat all of its natural weapons as secondary, as certain other animal listings describe.

Runestar
2011-01-05, 09:13 AM
You haven't played dnd until you have thrown a few of these babies at your 1st lv party. :smallamused:

The Incarnum-powered housecat.
A housecat has the following ability score modifiers: -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -8 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. We can give a housecat the nonelite array without increasing its CR, and we'll assign 11 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 9 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. Thus, a housecat with the nonelite array distribution as given above would have the following ability scores: 3 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 2 intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 4 Charisma.

>Using Unearthed Arcana's flaw system, we can give the housecat the Meager Fortitude and Weak-Willed flaws so that it gets two free bonus feats. With three feat slots to spend, we can make the housecat take Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), and Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar). This gives it a fly speed of 10 feet with good maneuverability, a spit attack which deals 1d6 acid damage upon a successful ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet as a standard action at will, and a useful familiar which is also a formidable combatant when compared to the housecat.

>So yeah, it's a min-maxed flying housecat that can spit acid and has its own pseudo-familiar. And it's still technically a CR 1/4 housecat. Make of it what you will

Chilingsworth
2011-01-05, 09:16 AM
This gives me an idea, of an Effigy Master making a cat effigy.

Little old lady artificer/effigy master with a horde of cat effigies...
There was a Codename: Kids Next Door episode like this, but I can't find a link to it anywhere. The title was Operation: C.A.T.S.

The cats weren't effigies, but it still seems appropriate to me.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 09:16 AM
The domesticated variety should at least treat all of its natural weapons as secondary, as certain other animal listings describe.

That might only apply to domestic herbivores though.

A dog (or a cat) is still dangerous whether it's wild or tame- and one wouldn't expect it to become significantly worse at attacking.

Especially since medieval cats weren't fed catfood- but hunted almost as much as wild ones do. That was why they were kept, after all- as mousers.

Domestic carnivores aren't likely to attack without a reason- but that wouldn't make them "worse fighters".

Myth
2011-01-05, 09:17 AM
Excuse me but flaws are intended for PCs and NPCs not monsters without class levels. How a barely sentient creature can be weak willed compared to others of it's species is beyond me.

A perfectly legitimate way of boosting said cat is to say it has lived in the wild and gone feral (seen it IRL, they have hairs growing out their ears for better hearing). Slap on the feral template.

Person_Man
2011-01-05, 09:18 AM
One often overlooked problem with being a cat (or any sufficiently small creature) is that you have no reach. Thus to attack, you need to enter your target's square - a movement which provokes an attack of opportunity. So if the cat gets a Surprise round by successfully using Hide/Move Silently or Bluff (purrr, come pet me, closer...) then they're fine. But if the Commoner is aware of the cat and armed in any way, the cat could die before it even gets into his square.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 09:19 AM
Feral can't be given to animals normally, as I recall.

Myth
2011-01-05, 09:21 AM
Feral can't be given to animals normally, as I recall.

Damn, you're right, I checked the SS entry. "humanoid or monstrous humanoid" only.

What about some other templates? My knowledge is lacking in that area. Where was Mineral Warrior again?

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 09:22 AM
Underdark- it's a Forgotten Realms book (very early 3.5) but content can easily work elsewhere.

(It may have been excerpt-ed on the WOTC site though- so you might not need the book).

Greenish
2011-01-05, 09:23 AM
One often overlooked problem with being a cat (or any sufficiently small creature) is that you have no reach. Thus to attack, you need to enter your target's square - a movement which provokes an attack of opportunity. So if the cat gets a Surprise round by successfully using Hide/Move Silently or Bluff (purrr, come pet me, closer...) then they're fine. But if the Commoner is aware of the cat and armed in any way, the cat could die before it even gets into his square.On the other hand, if the commoner isn't armed, the commoner will provoke an AoO from trying to hit the cat. :smallamused:

Runestar
2011-01-05, 09:29 AM
What...you don't think flying, acid-spitting cats are cool? :smalleek:

Androgeus
2011-01-05, 09:30 AM
One often overlooked problem with being a cat (or any sufficiently small creature) is that you have no reach. Thus to attack, you need to enter your target's square - a movement which provokes an attack of opportunity. So if the cat gets a Surprise round by successfully using Hide/Move Silently or Bluff (purrr, come pet me, closer...) then they're fine. But if the Commoner is aware of the cat and armed in any way, the cat could die before it even gets into his square.

Could always give the cat Don't Mind Me (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd%2Ffools%2F20030401c)

Coidzor
2011-01-05, 09:35 AM
Are there any real world instances of cants killing people? I'd assume not, but then I remembered how well my assumptions usually turn out...

Does eating elderly women when they get injured and can't fend off the cats count? Because... that happens. :/ As far as I've ever heard or seen on television, the most that's happened as a result of a housecat attacking someone was hospitalization.


Underdark- it's a Forgotten Realms book (very early 3.5) but content can easily work elsewhere.

(It may have been excerpt-ed on the WOTC site though- so you might not need the book).
For those who were curious, Mineral warrior. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031003e)

Yora
2011-01-05, 09:38 AM
They can walk around your feet, make you fall, and possibly injur yourself. But neither their claws nor teeth should be able to cause any serious damage to a conscious person.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 09:41 AM
It would have to be a lucky hit on a major artery- somewhat improbable since cat teeth and claws aren't all that long.

Eldan
2011-01-05, 09:43 AM
I've heard of cases where they crawled into cribs because it's nice and warm and accidentally suffocated babies. But that's not attacking an adult human with intent to kill.

Greenish
2011-01-05, 09:47 AM
If I was going hunting commoners, I'd want one of these:Magebred warbeast cat
{TABLE]Size/Type:|Tiny Animal
Hit Dice:|1- d8 (10 hp)
Initiative:|+4
Speed:|30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class:|20 (+2 size, +4 Dex, +4 natural), touch 16, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple:|+0/-10
Attack:|Claw +6 melee (1d2-1)
Full Attack:|2 claws +6 melee (1d2-1) and bite +4 melee (1d3-1)
Space/Reach:|2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks:|
Special Qualities:|Low-light vision, scent
Saves:|Fort +4, Ref +6, Will +2
Abilities:|Str 8, Dex 19, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 7
Skills: |Balance +12, Climb +9, Hide +18*, Jump +13, Listen +5, Move Silently +10, Spot +5
Feats:|Stealthy, Weapon FinesseB, MultiattackB
Environment:|Temperate plains
Organization:|Domesticated
Challenge Rating:|1
Advancement:|
Level Adjustment:|[/TABLE]Buy one now for just 50gp!

(Disclaimer: I have no idea how fractional CR or HD advance.)

Heliomance
2011-01-05, 10:38 AM
I think the Cat thusly invoked was in fact, Snuggles.


Snuggles the Death Kitty
Pseudonatural Paragon Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: d8+19 (28 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 180 ft. (36 squares)
Armor Class: 91 (+2 size, +15 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +40 natural), touch 51, flat-footed 81
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+28
Attack: Claw +62 melee (1d2+35)
Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +62 melee (1d2+35) and bite +60 melee (1d3+35)
Full Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant Insight, Improved Grab, Rotting Constriction
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Spell-like Abilities, Resist (Fire, Cold) 10, Resist (Electricity, Acid) 15, DR 10/epic, SR 40, Fast Healing 20, Epic Strike
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +23
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 35, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +17, Hide +16*, Jump +15, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +13*
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(B), Multiattack (B)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Hopefully alone
Challenge Rating: 31

Snuggles receives a +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35); 3/day - greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility (CL 15). DCs are Charisma-based

Constant Insight (Su)
Snuggles is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex)
If Snuggles hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once Snuggles has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check he makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, Snuggles regains 10 lost hit points.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, Snuggles can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against Snuggles in this alternate form.

That's not Snuggles. It hasn't replaced an eye with a Brooch of Shielding, nor can it fire disintegrate from the other eye.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-05, 10:45 AM
That's not Snuggles. It hasn't replaced an eye with a Brooch of Shielding, nor can it fire disintegrate from the other eye.

If it has the shield spell at will, why would it need a brooch of shielding?


Also:

ALL HAIL THAT WHICH IS CAT!

or whatever...

Psyx
2011-01-05, 10:47 AM
Foxes, when hunting mice, do the same.


I read that as 'foxes,[and] hunting mice, do the same.

I was thinking 'What the HECK is a hunting mouse and where can I get one?!' :smallbiggrin:

Tvtyrant
2011-01-05, 10:49 AM
A Bobcat in Oregon put 6 people into a hospital when it went on a rampage last year. They were in a bar and it walked in and simply beat the tar out of everyone in sight. Best part was it got away without a bruise and the police had to kill it (it had rabies).

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-01-05, 10:52 AM
This is why the D&D stealth v. perception system is :smallfrown:
Two random pixies should not epically fail at finding each other any more than two random humans should epically fail at finding each other.
Yeah. They remember to counteract the AC bonus for size with similar attack modifiers. But then they leave this.


NPC Commoner also has a grand total of 2 HP (Avg. from 1d4 + 0 from Con), so yeah...
Nitpick: Average 2.5.

And on one die, the distribution is even, so there are an equal number of 10 Con commoners with 4 hp as there are 1, 2, or 3.


Excuse me but flaws are intended for PCs and NPCs not monsters without class levels. How a barely sentient creature can be weak willed compared to others of it's species is beyond me.
By having a lower will save than the average member? Such as by having a lower-than average Wisdom, even.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-05, 11:25 AM
I think the Cat thusly invoked was in fact, Snuggles.


Snuggles the Death Kitty
Pseudonatural Paragon Cat
Size/Type: Tiny Outsider (Extraplanar)
Hit Dice: d8+19 (28 hp)
Initiative: +15
Speed: 180 ft. (36 squares)
Armor Class: 91 (+2 size, +15 Dex, +12 insight, +12 luck, +40 natural), touch 51, flat-footed 81
Base Attack/Grapple: +0/+28
Attack: Claw +62 melee (1d2+35)
Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Full Attack: 2 claws +62 melee (1d2+35) and bite +60 melee (1d3+35)
Full Attack: Tentacle +62 melee (2d8+35)
Space/Reach: 2 ft./0 ft.
Special Attacks: Constant Insight, Improved Grab, Rotting Constriction
Special Qualities: Low-Light Vision, Scent, Spell-like Abilities, Resist (Fire, Cold) 10, Resist (Electricity, Acid) 15, DR 10/epic, SR 40, Fast Healing 20, Epic Strike
Saves: Fort +24, Ref +25, Will +23
Abilities: Str 40, Dex 40, Con 35, Int 18, Wis 37, Cha 22
Skills: Balance +15, Climb +17, Hide +16*, Jump +15, Listen +13, Move Silently +17, Spot +13*
Feats: Stealthy, Weapon Finesse(B), Multiattack (B)
Environment: Temperate plains
Organization: Hopefully alone
Challenge Rating: 31

Snuggles receives a +10 competence bonus on all skill checks, and a +8 racial bonus on Hide checks.

Spell-Like Abilities: At will - blur, dimension door, shield, unhallow (CL 35); 3/day - greater dispel magic, haste, see invisibility (CL 15). DCs are Charisma-based

Constant Insight (Su)
Snuggles is not affected by the miss chance that applies to attacks against a concealed target.

Improved Grab (Ex)
If Snuggles hits an opponent smaller than it with a tentacle, it deals normal damage and attempts to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity.

Rotting Constriction (Ex)
Once Snuggles has hold of an opponent, each successful grapple check he makes during subsequent rounds permanently drains 2d4 points of Constitution. At the same time, Snuggles regains 10 lost hit points.

Alternate Form (Su)
At will, Snuggles can take the form of a grotesque, tentacled mass, but all its abilities remain unchanged despite the alien appearance. Changing shape is a standard action. Other creatures receive a -1 morale penalty on their attack rolls against Snuggles in this alternate form.

Quickened PW: Pain, Dimension Door.

Woohoo, I win!

Dr.Epic
2011-01-05, 11:28 AM
Does anybody know how the Monster Manual cat can even survive in nature? All of its attacks deal negative damage... (1d2-4, 1d3-1)
And why does everyone make jokes about cats killing commoners?

You can't deal negative damage. You always deal at least one point of damage. And assuming the right rolls, anything can kill anything else.

Tyndmyr
2011-01-05, 11:35 AM
You can't deal negative damage. You always deal at least one point of damage. And assuming the right rolls, anything can kill anything else.

Well, technically not entirely true. For instance, DR, and no-save abilities such as Blasphemy.

Callista
2011-01-05, 12:01 PM
I think it just happens because of how things get squished at the very low damage end of things. Technically the cat shouldn't be able to kill a commoner, but the damage scale only comes in whole numbers and hits a floor at 1 damage per attack. D&D is designed to simulate creatures who routinely do 3 or more damage per attack (more typically, 10), and outside its range, the system gets a little odd. But since when did you put your PCs up against house cats, anyway? (When they hadn't just been Baleful Polymorphed into mice, that is.)

Gullintanni
2011-01-05, 12:03 PM
That's not Snuggles. It hasn't replaced an eye with a Brooch of Shielding, nor can it fire disintegrate from the other eye.

Technically correct, but I scoured that thread and nobody who did a stat-block included the eyes :smallfrown:

Salbazier
2011-01-05, 12:10 PM
You haven't played dnd until you have thrown a few of these babies at your 1st lv party. :smallamused:

The Incarnum-powered housecat.
A housecat has the following ability score modifiers: -8 Strength, +4 Dexterity, +0 Constitution, -8 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom, -4 Charisma. We can give a housecat the nonelite array without increasing its CR, and we'll assign 11 Strength, 12 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 10 Intelligence, 9 Wisdom, and 8 Charisma. Thus, a housecat with the nonelite array distribution as given above would have the following ability scores: 3 Strength, 16 Dexterity, 13 Constitution, 2 intelligence, 11 Wisdom, 4 Charisma.

>Using Unearthed Arcana's flaw system, we can give the housecat the Meager Fortitude and Weak-Willed flaws so that it gets two free bonus feats. With three feat slots to spend, we can make the housecat take Shape Soulmeld (Airstep Sandals), Shape Soulmeld (Dissolving Spittle), and Shape Soulmeld (Soulspark Familiar). This gives it a fly speed of 10 feet with good maneuverability, a spit attack which deals 1d6 acid damage upon a successful ranged touch attack with a range of 60 feet as a standard action at will, and a useful familiar which is also a formidable combatant when compared to the housecat.

>So yeah, it's a min-maxed flying housecat that can spit acid and has its own pseudo-familiar. And it's still technically a CR 1/4 housecat. Make of it what you will

That's a nice pet to have :smallamused:

Dr.Epic
2011-01-05, 12:11 PM
Well, technically not entirely true. For instance, DR, and no-save abilities such as Blasphemy.

You roll three natural 20's in a row that's an auto-kill.

Killer Angel
2011-01-05, 12:17 PM
Speaking of housecats, never forget the tibbits... :smallcool:

Freylorn
2011-01-05, 12:22 PM
You roll three natural 20's in a row that's an auto-kill.

That's not actually RAW - it's an often-used variant rule in either the PHB or DMG.

jpreem
2011-01-05, 12:47 PM
But since when did you put your PCs up against house cats, anyway? (When they hadn't just been Baleful Polymorphed into mice, that is.)

THAT is an awesome idea. I'm going to do it to my PC-s.

Dr.Epic
2011-01-05, 12:52 PM
That's not actually RAW - it's an often-used variant rule in either the PHB or DMG.

Whatever. I use it, and I like the idea if you just throw 8,000 cats at the tarrasque there's a good chance the kitties will kill it (so long as you can then cast the wish or miracle spell).

Goober4473
2011-01-05, 12:59 PM
You roll three natural 20's in a row that's an auto-kill.

Technically that's an alternate rule, and I'd personally require the attack to deal damage after DR/resistances anyways if I was using said alternate rule.

Ecalsneerg
2011-01-05, 01:05 PM
You roll three natural 20's in a row that's an auto-kill.

That's a house rule. It's probably a common house rule, but it's still one nonetheless.

Callista
2011-01-05, 01:07 PM
Yup. Alternate rule, though many people do use it. Personally, I don't like it; if it happens against Joe Schmoe orc, it's anticlimactic, and if it happens against a BBEG, it can be annoying to the DM and the other players who wanted to get in on the fight. If it happens against a PC, it can just be randomly deadly.

Personally, I prefer "double twenty is an auto-crit"--first twenty is a threat, the roll to confirm automatically hits because it's a twenty. Technically you have to hit the enemy's AC on the second twenty, but that almost always happens anyway, so why not make the double-twenty an automatic critical?

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 01:20 PM
But since when did you put your PCs up against house cats, anyway? (When they hadn't just been Baleful Polymorphed into mice, that is.)

While not house cats, the baby sand cats in the Sand Cats adventure in Book of Lairs (2nd ed compilation of short adventures) were comparable in size and damage to 3.5 house cats- and were an interesting problem.

A trader had captured some baby sand cats- brought them from the desert to a marketplace further north. The original buyer was thought by the trader to have backed out of the deal- so the cats were put on display in the market.

The cats escaped and are wreaking havoc. The PCs are supposed to catch them alive (either for the trader, or for the local council as evidence of successfully solving the problem).

Also- the parents have followed- and are also looking for the babies- and might turn up and attack if a baby cat is found.

Shhalahr Windrider
2011-01-05, 01:30 PM
Personally, I prefer "double twenty is an auto-crit"--first twenty is a threat, the roll to confirm automatically hits because it's a twenty. Technically you have to hit the enemy's AC on the second twenty, but that almost always happens anyway, so why not make the double-twenty an automatic critical?
No, the confirmation is another attack roll, and an attack roll automatically succeeds on a natural 20. A nat 20 on a confirmation roll is already an automatic critical.

true_shinken
2011-01-05, 03:07 PM
You roll three natural 20's in a row that's an auto-kill.
That's an optional rule.
EDIT: Ninjas everywhere!

Chilingsworth
2011-01-05, 03:15 PM
So... shall we return to the topic at hand? You know: cat extinction/elder evil in cat form/cute kitties, etc.

AslanCross
2011-01-05, 05:42 PM
The cat represented there is an urban cat, either a pet or stray. They don't really need to hunt for food.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 05:47 PM
Is it? I figured that the animals in D&D were typical medieval animals- bulls, boars- cats. Typical medieval cat being a farmyard moggy kept to keep the rats down.

D&D isn't usually a very urban world, after all.

AslanCross
2011-01-05, 05:52 PM
Is it? I figured that the animals in D&D were typical medieval animals- bulls, boars- cats. Typical medieval cat being a farmyard moggy kept to keep the rats down.

D&D isn't usually a very urban world, after all.

Ah, that's true. Though that wasn't what came to mind when they say "housecat." Considering the many things D&D tends to gloss over (sling = slingSHOT and not military sling, for example), I doubt they even had that in mind.

TheMeMan
2011-01-05, 06:12 PM
A Bobcat in Oregon put 6 people into a hospital when it went on a rampage last year. They were in a bar and it walked in and simply beat the tar out of everyone in sight. Best part was it got away without a bruise and the police had to kill it (it had rabies).

Bobcats are quite a bit larger than what most consider cats(Even the wild variety). They stand about two feet tall, and are about the size of the smaller-end medium sized dogs. Much more viscious than wildcats, which are roughly half the size. Completely different animals.

TheMeMan
2011-01-05, 06:14 PM
Ah, that's true. Though that wasn't what came to mind when they say "housecat." Considering the many things D&D tends to gloss over (sling = slingSHOT and not military sling, for example), I doubt they even had that in mind.

...

REALLY?

I always assumed it was the military sling, which makes infinitely more sense to me than the slingshot.

My world has been upturned.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 06:16 PM
Considering the many things D&D tends to gloss over (sling = slingSHOT and not military sling, for example), I doubt they even had that in mind.

The art in PHB does make it look more like a sling (at least, a "David" sling)- not a catapult of the schoolkid kind.

though that may be one case of "realistic art, unrealistic stats"

NineThePuma
2011-01-05, 06:18 PM
DnD Sling is a real Sling, not a Slingshot. Weird people are weird.

Eldariel
2011-01-05, 06:26 PM
Nitpick: Average 2.5.

Yeah, but D&D rounds averages down and HP for NPCs/Monsters isn't generally rolled so, assuming we just take the average, he'll have 2 HP.

AslanCross
2011-01-05, 06:39 PM
DnD Sling is a real Sling, not a Slingshot. Weird people are weird.

The art is correct, but the stats are supposedly modeled after a slingshot and not a real sling. (The same illustration of course gets the warhammer wrong)

But yeah, I'm thinking they just said "Let's put in stats for a cat." "The medieval rat-killing cat, or an urban stray cat?" "*blank stares*"

Coidzor
2011-01-05, 06:42 PM
The art in PHB does make it look more like a sling (at least, a "David" sling)- not a catapult of the schoolkid kind.

though that may be one case of "realistic art, unrealistic stats"

There's an anecdote floating around that the designer interpreted it as slingshot and the artist interpreted it as military sling of the ancient world.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 06:45 PM
In 2nd ed Arms & Equipment Guide (which got the warhammer right lookswise- and the falchion as well stat-wise, as a one handed weapon, unlike 3rd ed)

the sling is still pretty weak- 1d4 damage for stones, 1d4+1 damage for bullets.

Ashiel
2011-01-05, 06:46 PM
This is why the D&D stealth v. perception system is :smallfrown:
Two random pixies should not epically fail at finding each other any more than two random humans should epically fail at finding each other.

I disagree heavily. In both cases there's less area that the pixies inhabit, and thus less chance that you'll see them. Likewise, both the cat and the mouse might not be able to find each other effectively, but then you have scent which could lead to tracking them for a bit around a room; and despite their hide modifiers, tracking can still locate them.

Plus, once they no longer have cover or concealment, Hide doesn't make you invisible. So all Hide checks automatically fail. Think of it this way. While the mouse is under the sink, the cat can only search frantically because he smells the mouse. When the cat suspects the mouse is about, he waits. When the mouse skitters across the floor (entering into open view without cover or concealment) the cat spots him and takes his readied action (CHAAAAARGE!! MROAW! )).

Very elegant system if you use it correctly. I say this as someone who has grown up with cats and seen this very thing play out in reality.

lesser_minion
2011-01-05, 06:51 PM
Isn't an IRL pounce really a single devastating attack like a bite to the back of the neck?

It might make more sense to give housecats a Sneak Attack +2d6 or something similar, rather than giving them D&D Pounce.


I
Very elegant system if you use it correctly. I say this as someone who has grown up with cats and seen this very thing play out in reality.

You can't use combat actions unless you are actually in combat. The DMG advises you to make exceptions where obvious -- e.g. casting cure light wounds after a fight has ended -- but is also quite clear that this never applies to Delay and Ready.

AslanCross
2011-01-05, 06:54 PM
Isn't an IRL pounce really a single devastating attack like a bite to the back of the neck?

Isn't it usually a takedown followed by a bite? At least that's what lions do. I'm not so sure about how a housecat does it.

Coidzor
2011-01-05, 06:59 PM
^: I've seen them occasionally grasp with their paws then use their jaws to catch the bat or mouse or mole and hold it in their mouth before deciding whether to kill it or play with it with their paws. And sometimes they just use their paws to land with as they bite down on the animal.

Another reason why cats aren't extinct. Handle Humanoid. (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/fools/20030401c)

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 06:59 PM
Lions often hunt prey comparable to themselves in size though- housecat prey tends to be smaller relative to the cat.

RndmNumGen
2011-01-05, 07:00 PM
Isn't an IRL pounce really a single devastating attack like a bite to the back of the neck?

It might make more sense to give housecats a Sneak Attack +2d6 or something similar, rather than giving them D&D Pounce.

So... let cats one-shot a wolf?

Rainbownaga
2011-01-05, 07:01 PM
Isn't an IRL pounce really a single devastating attack like a bite to the back of the neck?

It might make more sense to give housecats a Sneak Attack +2d6 or something similar, rather than giving them D&D Pounce.
.

Wait, you want to make the cats even more lethal to adventurers? :smalleek:

lesser_minion
2011-01-05, 07:02 PM
So... let cats one-shot a wolf?

That figure wasn't meant to be taken seriously...

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 07:05 PM
You can't use combat actions unless you are actually in combat. The DMG advises you to make exceptions where obvious -- e.g. casting cure light wounds after a fight has ended -- but is also quite clear that this never applies to Delay and Ready.

Wouldn't the "encounter" start the moment the cat becomes aware that there's a mouse around?

A bit like if invisible ambusher trips over a chair- the combat encounter begins even if fighting hasn't- and they can ready actions.

Coidzor
2011-01-05, 07:08 PM
You can't use combat actions unless you are actually in combat. The DMG advises you to make exceptions where obvious -- e.g. casting cure light wounds after a fight has ended -- but is also quite clear that this never applies to Delay and Ready.

So you're saying the old readied action to shoot someone when they come out of their rope trick thing that's always brought up is actually rules illegal, eh?

AslanCross
2011-01-05, 07:10 PM
Lions often hunt prey comparable to themselves in size though- housecat prey tends to be smaller relative to the cat.

That was on my mind as I wrote it, but I was responding to the comment that "IRL pounce is single devastating bite to the base of the neck" in the same context that housecats shouldn't have D&D pounce but sneak attack instead.

Sneak attack would make a cat even more deadly to adventurers.

Ashiel
2011-01-05, 07:13 PM
You can't use combat actions unless you are actually in combat. The DMG advises you to make exceptions where obvious -- e.g. casting cure light wounds after a fight has ended -- but is also quite clear that this never applies to Delay and Ready.

Does not combat begin when one becomes aware of another? The cat knows the rat is there due to scent, but he can't find them. The event is being measured in rounds of initiative, even if the rat doesn't know the cat is there. Initiative isn't just for combat, but for moments when things could be tense. The PHB gives an example of two guys walking down an alleyway, neither hostile, and both delaying their initiative to see what happens; with one guy finally saying "Well met, friend."

EDIT: To further illustrate, the point, the cat decides on his first available round upon noticing the presence of the mouse (be it a surprise round or not) that he readies his action to pounce that furry beastie when it pops out.

lesser_minion
2011-01-05, 07:16 PM
So you're saying the old readied action to shoot someone when they come out of their rope trick thing that's always brought up is actually rules illegal, eh?

Sort of. The rules allow you to declare that you're 'covering a door' or whatever, but that means you're automatically assumed to be expecting something to come through it -- i.e. if there's a surprise round, you'll get to act in it.

Ash's example only works if the mouse doesn't know about the cat, in which case it's handled through surprise rounds -- i.e. there is no need to ready anything.

As for 'time to prepare', the rules seem quite clear that those are non-combat rounds -- the fight opens with a surprise round, in which the cat would get to act but the mouse wouldn't.

hamishspence
2011-01-05, 07:19 PM
mice have poor vision but good ears- maybe it passed a listen check- and so both parties are aware of each other?

lesser_minion
2011-01-05, 07:22 PM
mice have poor vision but good ears- maybe it passed a listen check- and so both parties are aware of each other?

I just checked, and the rules seem to imply that those aren't treated as combat rounds either -- combat 'starts' when the two parties involved become able to interact, not simply when one or both sides become aware.

It does make some sense for the rules to work that way -- if they didn't, then the cat would automatically get the drop on the mouse every time, which is rather unfair, and doesn't really fit with how we'd expect things to pan out -- the mouse probably wouldn't make a break for it unless it thought it could actually get away from the cat, after all.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-05, 08:55 PM
Think once each side becomes aware, they start rolling Initiative for themselves(and only start comparing those figures once both sides are aware).

megabyter5
2011-01-05, 09:40 PM
It's rare for a cat to make a full attack. They will instead grapple and pin the target from a charge, and maintain the pin until the prey has succumbed to nonlethal damage, then they do a coup de grace. This describes both hunting tactics, and a domestic cat's behavior toward its humans.

Seriously, my cat refuses to sit on my lap unless I'm in an uncomfortable position and he can make my legs fall asleep.

Logalmier
2011-01-05, 10:15 PM
I am convinced that cats have gaze attacks that they use to paralyze prey.

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-05, 10:50 PM
I am convinced that cats have gaze attacks that they use to paralyze prey.

That's Snakes. Cats have a variety of Meow SLAs. Charm, Dominate Person etc.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-07, 07:58 PM
They also have a sleep SLA, usuable on themselves and anything they are in contact with while purring, at will.

Rainbownaga
2011-01-07, 10:37 PM
Cats are awsomely powerful in d&d (also in NWoD where they have daggers for claws and combat skills like professional humans, apparently).

It was tempting to take advantage of this and make an army of skeletal cats, but when they lose weapon finesse, they become useless :smallannoyed:

DragonOfUndeath
2011-01-09, 03:50 AM
Make Zombie cats and skin them. You now have skeletal cats that can pwn Commoners

Ravens_cry
2011-01-09, 06:15 AM
Every time I see the WotC 'Cat Feats' page, it so makes me want to play an awakened cat. Not a Tibbit, opposable thumbs are for chimps, a cat. Probably as a rogue or wizard.

SilverLeaf167
2011-01-09, 07:10 AM
Every time I see the WotC 'Cat Feats' page, it so makes me want to play an awakened cat. Not a Tibbit, opposable thumbs are for chimps, a cat. Probably as a rogue or wizard.

A psion would be the best choice, because they don't need somatic or verbal components at all. Would definitely save you a lot of trouble with feats and metamagic.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-09, 07:18 AM
A psion would be the best choice, because they don't need somatic or verbal components at all. Would definitely save you a lot of trouble with feats and metamagic.
Yeah, there be a possibility, though I think the group would sooner let me play a cat then a psion. Maybe I could wrangle the DM into letting me take Natural Spell, the principle in-universe is the same.

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 01:46 PM
Yeah, there be a possibility, though I think the group would sooner let me play a cat then a psion. Maybe I could wrangle the DM into letting me take Natural Spell, the principle in-universe is the same.

Surrogate Spellcasting from Savage Species should fo it.

Arbane
2011-01-09, 02:03 PM
Every time I see the WotC 'Cat Feats' page, it so makes me want to play an awakened cat. Not a Tibbit, opposable thumbs are for chimps, a cat. Probably as a rogue or wizard.

I thought that would be an amusing idea: Tibbles the Freelance Familiar, Cat Rogue. A cat with Sneak Attack could get messy very quickly.

A cat psion brings to mind the old joke about the apparent main villain being a patsy, the real villain is that fluffy white cat he's petting.

grimbold
2011-01-09, 02:08 PM
And cats can full attack for 3 attacks per round.

so therefore 75% of commoners can be killed in 1 round by a cat.
and some barbarians can be killed
actually i have always been frightened by the concept that a 6'10'' full Orc barbarian can be taken down by 8 toads
it happened to me once

Coidzor
2011-01-09, 04:12 PM
I thought that would be an amusing idea: Tibbles the Freelance Familiar, Cat Rogue. A cat with Sneak Attack could get messy very quickly.

Now I'm imagining a kitty bard with dragonfire inspiration. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTunhRVyREU) x,x

true_shinken
2011-01-09, 04:17 PM
Now I'm imagining a kitty bard with dragonfire inspiration. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTunhRVyREU) x,x

Run to the hills! Run for your lives!