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Demons_eye
2011-01-08, 02:08 AM
Void Mage

http://fc00.deviantart.net/fs48/f/2009/195/4/2/_Unspoken__by_One_Vox.jpg

"Power is sought from the void itself not in any martial skill or magical affinity" -Janus Thorn, Binder Mage

Binder Mages are those who dive deep into binder lore to find the void. They try to find every bit of information they can so one day they might be able to travel to the void. The void is the only thing that matters, it is the ultimate goal, the ultimate destination. The void is all consuming. The void, the void, the void, the void.....

And then they find it, only the void does not just give, it takes, it consumes. As soon as they find this information hidden in thousands of tomes, in an encryption so high it take Baccob a day to understand, they lose it. The void takes that information and never gives it back.

But by taking that information it leaves a connection, an imprint, in the void. You lose part of your self to it but gain its power in a symbiotic relationship.

Becoming a Binder Mage

The normal way to become a Binder Mage is to search many years of ancient tomes to find messages leading you to the void. Sometimes a friendly Binder Mage will give tips but without finding and understand the information the void takes more then its location from you.

ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills:Concentration: 8 Ranks, Knowledge (History) 8 Ranks
Feats:Improved Binding and Favored Vestige or Expel Vestige
Special: Must have defeated a foe using only using the abilities gained from vestiges.


Class Skills
The Binder Mage class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Cha), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (Arcana) (Int), Knowledge (History) (Int), Knowledge (Planes) (Int), Knowledge (Religion) (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis)

Skills Points at Each Level: 2 + int

Hit Dice: d6


{table="head"]Level|BAB|Fort|Ref|Will|Special

1st|+0|+0|+0|+2|Void Surge +2, Soul Binding

2nd|+1|+0|+0|+3|Feed the Void

3rd|+1|+1|+1|+3|Break the Thresholds

4th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Other Self 1/day

5th|+2|+1|+1|+4|Void Surge +4

6th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Corruption of the Void

7th|+3|+2|+2|+5|Friend of the Vestiges

8th|+4|+2|+2|+6|The 13th Hour

9th|+4|+3|+3|+6|Void Surge +6

10th|+5|+3|+3|+7|Part of the Void
[/table]

Soul Binding Your Binder Mage Levels stack with your other soul binding class to determine your binder Level, if you have more than one class that gives you soul binding pick one to advance.

Void Surge (Su)- In the Void a faint vestige of yourself lingers connecting you. It feeds you power from the void but taking sustenance from you to grow. Once ever five rounds, at the first level, you can increase your Effective Binder Level by 2 for one round as a free action. You can not use this ability to gain access to high level vestiges. After you use this ability you take your bonus binder level in nonlethal damage.

At the 5th level this bonus increase to 4 and at the 9th level it further increase to 6.

Feed the Void- Your other self constantly takes your life force feeding on your memories, your experiences, and your soul. But by strengthening it self your ties become stronger then ever and you gain even more vestige like traits. Starting at the second level you fade in and out of reality randomly. You gain a 10% miss chance that stacks other miss chances you may gain, in addition you need only half the amount of sleep to be fully rested. Abilities that require 8 hours of rest are unaffected by this ability.

Break the Thresholds - Even though the void is everything and nothing at the same time vestiges keep their experience to themselves, mostly. Starting at the 3rd level your other self whispers secrets of certain vestiges to you making them more powerful as you remove their limits. Check the tables below for further information.

Other Self 1/day- Once a day at the 4th level you can have your other self take over, fully giving into the void. Being a vestige itself, understanding the interlocking abilities of other vestiges, it can better control them. For 5+Charisma modifier rounds all your vestiges abilities cool downs are reduced by 1, also all abilities are either Enlarged, Extend, Empowered(requires 10 HD), Widened(requires 12 HD), or Quickened (requires 14 HD) once. At the eight level you gain another use of this ability.


Corruption of the Void- Contently giving to the void starts to take its toll on you but not without results. Your eyes start to glow with a faint red tinge, your starts to lose its color, your skin starts to pale, and often at times you can be found coughing up blood. At the 6th level you lose 2 points of constitution. You gain the Incorporeal Subtype when beneficial.


Friend of the Vestiges- Even though your continued expenditure of life to the void is mainly to your other self other vestiges can sometimes siphon it away. This leads them to be very nice when you ask for things. Depending on what feat you used to enter with at the 7th level you gain one of two abilities.

Favored Vestige: You may tattoo the vestiges symbol to your body reducing the time needed to bind the vestige to a minute. Also when using the Other Self ability your favored vestiges abilities are either Enlarged, Extend, Empowered, Widened, or Quickened for the remainder of the Other Self ability instead of just once..


Expel Vestige: You may mentally communicate with the void switching your current vestiges around once a day. Every switch brings a -7 to your next binding check and -7 the next time you bind the switched vestige.

The 13th Hour- What people do not know is that there was once 25 hours in a day but during the end of the twelfth hour when the moon is opposite of the sun the void becomes as close to reaching the void. Powerful casters that feared the void would break lose and consume the world sealed the 13th hour into a second after 12:59:59 and before 1:00:00. The Binder mage knows about this and can abuse the stored up sealed time.

Starting at the 8th level you can act as if under the hast spell four one minute per Binder Mage level per day spread out as you see fit. Also you can accomplish tasks faster then normal, when making a skill check that you can take 10 on you can take 20 as if you took 10. You can not take 20 on skills that normally don't let you.

Part of the Void (Su)- Finally after feeding off you for so long your other self reaches out and rips your soul in two making strong enough to be summoned. At the Tenth level your other self becomes a full fledged vestige. You and your DM can agree as to what the vestiges level, abilities, and powers. You are the only one that knows how to summon this vestige.

In addition you can be summoned into the void by your other self as a Standard Action. You can only be set free when someone else tries to summon your Vestige at which point you are summoned in his place.

So what do you think? I did this after it popped into me head.


Side Bar: The Other Self

Nothing yet.



Break the Thresholds Tables:
None Yet

Hyooz
2011-01-08, 02:25 AM
Void Surge is redonkulously powerful since most Binder save DCs are based off of effective binder level.

Beyond that... it's dull. Those are feats. I hate to be blunt, but this is the most boring possible thing you could have done with the admittedly pretty cool flavor idea of reaching into the void where the vestiges are for more power, and it 'stares back into you' per se.

Part of the Void is a cool idea, but the implementation is totally... not there. Also: there's a disconnect between the idea of being summoned into the void and only being able to get back when someone tries to summon your vestige... when the sentence before says you are the only one who knows how to summon your vestige. There's also no indication when or why your void self might summon you, so it's basically a DM "bye bye character" button for a power that... I have no idea how good it'll be. Y'know?

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-08, 02:25 AM
Quick PEACH:

Entry requirements make sense and are of no great burden. The Special requirement seems superfluous due to the nature of being a binder, however.

Saves, BAB, and HD are a little low compared to the entry class, but I'll save judgment till I get to the class features.

Void Surge is pants on head retarded good, as many level appropriate abilities are locked by EBL. At the low end of the power spectrum, you can cheat yourself into the best armor provided by Savnok earlier than you should and on the high end you basically get, for free up to an extra +5 on the save DC to your binder abilities.

X Supernatural Ability are feats: feats are not class features.

The capstone is too vague and doesn't really do anything if you don't homebrew it. Consider revising.

Overall, it doesn't really do much. Void Surge is too good, just by the nature of how binding works. The fact that it is effectively free is troublesome. The extra feats are mostly "meh," and again, not really class features.

Demons_eye
2011-01-08, 02:35 AM
Quick PEACH:

Always welcome




Entry requirements make sense and are of no great burden. The Special requirement seems superfluous due to the nature of being a binder, however.

Thought as much.



Saves, BAB, and HD are a little low compared to the entry class, but I'll save judgment till I get to the class features.

Quick question: Why write this is you don't go back to change it after reading the class features?



Void Surge is pants on head retarded good, as many level appropriate abilities are locked by EBL. At the low end of the power spectrum, you can cheat yourself into the best armor provided by Savnok earlier than you should and on the high end you basically get, for free up to an extra +5 on the save DC to your binder abilities.

But its only for one turn after using it the armor goes back to normal because your binder level dropped. Also the +5 to Save DC's are nice but that means you have to stick with the class for 10 levels. By that time you are one level away from ninth level spells, +5 is good but not broken IMHO.



X Supernatural Ability are feats: feats are not class features.

Ok, what would you sugest in its place?



The capstone is too vague and doesn't really do anything if you don't homebrew it. Consider revising.

Well if you are using the class in the first place you have to have it ok'ed by your DM. If he read it then he knows what hes getting into, working with the player to make a new Vestige. Or do you mean it vague in another way?



Overall, it doesn't really do much. Void Surge is too good, just by the nature of how binding works. The fact that it is effectively free is troublesome. The extra feats are mostly "meh," and again, not really class features.

Again, its for one turn and you have to stick with the class to gain a massive bonus. Waiting for suggestions for the feats.


Void Surge is redonkulously powerful since most Binder save DCs are based off of effective binder level.

Again, for one turn, to use one ability, for a max save bonus of +5.



Beyond that... it's dull. Those are feats. I hate to be blunt, but this is the most boring possible thing you could have done with the admittedly pretty cool flavor idea of reaching into the void where the vestiges are for more power, and it 'stares back into you' per se.

I know, and its stumping me, really looking for idea here. The feats are really just place holders until I can replace them.



Part of the Void is a cool idea, but the implementation is totally... not there. Also: there's a disconnect between the idea of being summoned into the void and only being able to get back when someone tries to summon your vestige... when the sentence before says you are the only one who knows how to summon your vestige. There's also no indication when or why your void self might summon you, so it's basically a DM "bye bye character" button for a power that... I have no idea how good it'll be. Y'know?

I do need to clarify the other self but the idea that you can only be called out by other people is that you need to 'spread' your vestige and not horde it for yourself or you can never use that ability without getting stuck.



Edit: I mean if you really want to beat the Save thing to death say you want to use Acerrak's Lich Touch. Let take a level 14 binder.

Break down

10 (Base)
7 (1/2 Binder)
2 (Ability Focus)
2 (Sudden Ability Focus)
2 (Veil of Allure) 24k
1 (Favored Vestige Focus)
1 (Ipos's Influence)
1 (Soul Lens) 12k

24 without charisma 26 once a day Add in Chupoclops and Focalor for a foe to take -4 to their saves Effectively 28/30+Cha

Golden-Esque
2011-01-08, 03:14 AM
ENTRY REQUIREMENTS
Skills:Concentration: 8 Ranks, Knowledge (History) 8 Ranks
Feats:Improved Binding and Favored Vestige or Expel Vestige
Special: Must have defeated a foe using only using the abilities gained from vestiges.

Easy and the special requirement is fluffy. I like it.


Class Skills
The Binder Mage class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Concentration (Cha), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually) (Int), and Sense Motive (Wis)

All Knowledge Skills seems odd, since your class is clearly specialized in the use of void power. I'd drop it to Arcana, Planes, and maybe Religion.


Skills Points at Each Level: 4 + int

Binder skill points are set to 2 + Int if I'm not mistaken. This prestige class is clearly not designed to be a skill class, and I think you should drop the points to 2 + Int, just because the extra points don't make sense. You're focusing your life into studying the void that vestiges exist in, right? Where exactly do you have time to learn about plants, trees, or how to do a perfect cartwheel?


Hit Dice: d4

Ow, that's quite a hit. I don't know if going all the way down to a d4 is necessary, but I'll save judgment until the end.


Binder For Life Your Binder Mage Levels Stack with your other soul binding class to determine your binder Level,

This is a silly feature name. It sounds like something that a California Surfer Boi Binder Bros would shout at each other. Call it Soul Binding and use the standard wording in the Tome of Magic for the stacking of Binder prestige class levels with Binder levels to determine effective Binder level.


Void Surge (Su)- In the Void a faint vestige of yourself lingers connecting you. It feeds you power from the void but taking sustenance from you to grow. Once ever 1d8 round, at the first level, you can increase your Effective Binder Level by your Binder Mage level for one round as a free action. You can not use this ability to gain access to high level vestiges.

At the 5th level you can use this ability every 1d6 rounds

At the 9th level you can use this ability every 1d4 rounds.

So wait a minute, you're telling me that every 1d8 rounds you get to double your Binder Mage's class level contribution to your effective Binder level? You realize that this ups everything from durations to Saving Throw DCs. This power is ridiculously lopsided to some vestiges. For example, this ability does absolutely NOTHING for Savnok or Eurynome, because their powers all cap out at a specific Binder level. Actually, a lot of Binder class features cap out at a specific Binder level (usually 18-20). All this ability is doing is pumping up duration and save DCs, usually. It's actually quite bad (Savnok), except for several vestiges in which it is borderline broken (Dahlver-Nar).

For feats such as Empower / Heighten / Extend Supernatural Ability, they are balanced with a specific number of uses per day. This ability is active every encounter and you don't suffer much for it taking it aside from giving up Pact Augmentations and Soul Guardians. Far too powerful.


Enlarge Supernatural Ability- You gain the Enlarge Supernatural Ability feat. If you already have this feat you instead gain another daily use of this feat.

Extend Supernatural Ability- You gain the Extend Supernatural Ability Feat. If you already have this feat you instead gain another daily use of this feat.

Empower Supernatural Ability- You gain the Empower Supernatural Ability Feat. If you already have this feat you instead gain another daily use of this feat.

Sudden Supernatural Ability- You gain the Sudden Supernatural Ability Feat. If you already have this feat you instead gain another daily use of this feat.

Widen Supernatural Ability- You gain the Widen Supernatural Ability Feat. If you already have this feat you instead gain another daily use of this feat.

Quicken Supernatural Ability- You gain the Ability to 1/day quicken any supernatural ability you have.

To me, all of these class features just scream "I ran out of idea, so let me give you some feats!" They're not fun or interesting at all. Quicken Supernatural Ability is pretty cool, but again, it's not something I've never seen before.


Part of the Void (Su)- Finally after feeding off you for so long your other self reaches out and rips your soul in two making strong enough to be summoned. At the Tenth level your other self becomes a full fledged vestige. You and your DM can agree as to what the vestiges level, abilities, and powers. You are the only one that knows how to summon this vestige.

In addition you can be summoned into the void by your other self as a Standard Action. You can only be set free when someone else tries to summon your Vestige at which point you are summoned in his place.

Wait, wait, what? So basically I have this alter ego sitting somewhere, and after tapping into the Void too long he separates from my soul and becomes a vestige? Dude, that's so cool! Why is this entire class not based around this idea? You could totally do a class that's so much more interesting then this based off of the idea that you're slowly turning into a Jekyll / Hyde Binder.

Conclusion: You have some awesome ideas, but the class itself is very bland and rather boring, to be honest. I think the idea that you soul is breaking apart and you actually create a Vestige of yourself is awesome, though. It's something I'd definitely like to see. Build-A-Vestige. That actually gives me an idea ....

Demons_eye
2011-01-08, 12:50 PM
Easy and the special requirement is fluffy. I like it.

Thought so too.



All Knowledge Skills seems odd, since your class is clearly specialized in the use of void power. I'd drop it to Arcana, Planes, and maybe Religion.

I thought about that but then its more of a uses all available knowledge to find information on the void. But your right will probably change it down to those four.



Binder skill points are set to 2 + Int if I'm not mistaken. This prestige class is clearly not designed to be a skill class, and I think you should drop the points to 2 + Int, just because the extra points don't make sense. You're focusing your life into studying the void that vestiges exist in, right? Where exactly do you have time to learn about plants, trees, or how to do a perfect cartwheel?

The extra point were either for the extra knowledge skills. Since I will be taking some out I will drop it back to two.




Ow, that's quite a hit. I don't know if going all the way down to a d4 is necessary, but I'll save judgment until the end.

D6 would be more fitting?




This is a silly feature name. It sounds like something that a California Surfer Boi Binder Bros would shout at each other. Call it Soul Binding and use the standard wording in the Tome of Magic for the stacking of Binder prestige class levels with Binder levels to determine effective Binder level.

Makes sense.




So wait a minute, you're telling me that every 1d8 rounds you get to double your Binder Mage's class level contribution to your effective Binder level? You realize that this ups everything from durations to Saving Throw DCs. This power is ridiculously lopsided to some vestiges. For example, this ability does absolutely NOTHING for Savnok or Eurynome, because their powers all cap out at a specific Binder level. Actually, a lot of Binder class features cap out at a specific Binder level (usually 18-20). All this ability is doing is pumping up duration and save DCs, usually. It's actually quite bad (Savnok), except for several vestiges in which it is borderline broken (Dahlver-Nar).

Well one of the ideas is it use this to power the vestiges that have no cap. Use the far hand ability to throw bolders around instead of rocks, shoot massive amounts of lighting, or lots of sneak attacks.

What about an ability that removed some of the caps on the other vestiges though? To powerful?




For feats such as Empower / Heighten / Extend Supernatural Ability, they are balanced with a specific number of uses per day. This ability is active every encounter and you don't suffer much for it taking it aside from giving up Pact Augmentations and Soul Guardians. Far too powerful.

I really don;t think its that powerful for one round. Combat might be finished by the time you can use it again for it to even matter.



To me, all of these class features just scream "I ran out of idea, so let me give you some feats!" They're not fun or interesting at all. Quicken Supernatural Ability is pretty cool, but again, it's not something I've never seen before.

As I said before they are more place holders than real features. I did not want to post this with just an empty shell.



Wait, wait, what? So basically I have this alter ego sitting somewhere, and after tapping into the Void too long he separates from my soul and becomes a vestige? Dude, that's so cool! Why is this entire class not based around this idea? You could totally do a class that's so much more interesting then this based off of the idea that you're slowly turning into a Jekyll / Hyde Binder.

That is a very interesting take, I will have to think on it to get more ideas.




Conclusion: You have some awesome ideas, but the class itself is very bland and rather boring, to be honest. I think the idea that you soul is breaking apart and you actually create a Vestige of yourself is awesome, though. It's something I'd definitely like to see. Build-A-Vestige. That actually gives me an idea ....

This is where I do need help. I can come up with some stuff just the execution on making it is very hard. Any ideas are welcome.

Golden-Esque
2011-01-08, 03:00 PM
D6 would be more fitting?

If you keep the class exactly as-is, I think d6 would be okay. If you end up changing the EBL boosting ability, you can probably get away with making it d8.


Well one of the ideas is it use this to power the vestiges that have no cap. Use the far hand ability to throw bolders around instead of rocks, shoot massive amounts of lighting, or lots of sneak attacks.

The thing is that most (not all) Binder prestige classes stick with the idea that the Binder is a jack of a all trades but a master of none. He has ultimate flexibility but he ends up specializing to a tee; he can easily do more Sneak Attack damage then a Rogue or heal more often then a Cleric, but he's never going to be able to match those classes move for move. When you make a class feature that isn't completely flexible, it doesn't really fit the spirit of the class. Granted, your ability will help the majority of the vestiges, but some kind of fall out of place.


What about an ability that removed some of the caps on the other vestiges though? To powerful?

Depends. It would be a LOT of paperwork on your part to do this. For example, you'd have to make up one or two additional tiers for Savnok's armor or Eurynome's warhammer. That might get a little tedious for you.



I really don;t think its that powerful for one round. Combat might be finished by the time you can use it again for it to even matter.

Here's just one example.

I'm a 15th level Binder. Normally, when I Bind to Marchosias and use my Death Attack ability, the save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 my Binder level + my Charisma modifier. Let's say for simplicity's sake that I don't max out my Charisma for some reason and I have a 20 (which is fairly low for a 15th level character). This means I have a save DC equal to 22 or the creature automatically dies or is paralyzed for 1d6+15 rounds. This isn't particularly overpowered; it's about what your average spellcaster with the same stats is going to have.

Now, wait. All of a sudden I'm a Binder 5 / Binder Mage 10 (your class can be entered as early as 5th level, as the Special Requirement isn't one that the DM has much control over). Now, I can study a creature for 3 rounds, then as a Free Action use my Void ability to pump my DC up from a 22 to a 32. This means the creature needs a 32 or they die. Instantly. Or are paralyzed for one round per effective Binder level you possess, which (thanks to this same ability) is 1d6+25 rounds.

To put this ability into perspective, the average Wyrm has a CR of 23 and a Fortitude bonus of 20-25. Since the Binder's save DC is 22, they have somewhere between a 0% to 10% (nat 1 or nat 2) to fail it. With your class feature empowering the Death Attack, the DC becomes 32, which means that the dragons can fail on somewhere between a 30% to 55% chance (nat 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1), based on the dragon's Fortitude save of course.

Also, in retrospect I didn't include the +2 from Improved Binding anywhere in that calculations, but you can basically see my point. It's just a little bit too powerful .... :smallsmile:


As I said before they are more place holders than real features. I did not want to post this with just an empty shell.

Which is cool. I must have missed that comment, but I do think that my comment on the bonus feats was still a fair critique.


This is where I do need help. I can come up with some stuff just the execution on making it is very hard. Any ideas are welcome.

Which is fine. That's why we submit our work for P.E.A.C.H.ing, is it not? I personally think that if you're going to make this idea work, then you need to do a few things.

#1 - Tapping into the void cannot effectively double your Binder Mage levels. It's far too powerful in certain vestige's hands, as I demonstrated above. Your best bet is to use a specific value that is added and scale it up as you increase in levels. Maybe a +1, then a +2, then a +3 or something similar.

#2 - At the very last part of your class's levels, you state that your soul has been partially consumed or something similar. I'd play off of that. Show the Binder's soul slowly becoming more and more corrupt as they tamper with the void. It could be a very cool class.

Demons_eye
2011-01-08, 04:23 PM
Depends. It would be a LOT of paperwork on your part to do this. For example, you'd have to make up one or two additional tiers for Savnok's armor or Eurynome's warhammer. That might get a little tedious for you.

It might be but I have little else to do at work ironically.




I'm a 15th level Binder. Normally, when I Bind to Marchosias and use my Death Attack ability, the save DC is equal to 10 + 1/2 my Binder level + my Charisma modifier. Let's say for simplicity's sake that I don't max out my Charisma for some reason and I have a 20 (which is fairly low for a 15th level character). This means I have a save DC equal to 22 or the creature automatically dies or is paralyzed for 1d6+15 rounds. This isn't particularly overpowered; it's about what your average spellcaster with the same stats is going to have.

Now, wait. All of a sudden I'm a Binder 5 / Binder Mage 10 (your class can be entered as early as 5th level, as the Special Requirement isn't one that the DM has much control over). Now, I can study a creature for 3 rounds, then as a Free Action use my Void ability to pump my DC up from a 22 to a 32. This means the creature needs a 32 or they die. Instantly. Or are paralyzed for one round per effective Binder level you possess, which (thanks to this same ability) is 1d6+25 rounds.

To put this ability into perspective, the average Wyrm has a CR of 23 and a Fortitude bonus of 20-25. Since the Binder's save DC is 22, they have somewhere between a 0% to 10% (nat 1 or nat 2) to fail it. With your class feature empowering the Death Attack, the DC becomes 32, which means that the dragons can fail on somewhere between a 30% to 55% chance (nat 11, 10, 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, or 1), based on the dragon's Fortitude save of course.

Also, in retrospect I didn't include the +2 from Improved Binding anywhere in that calculations, but you can basically see my point. It's just a little bit too powerful .... :smallsmile:

.

I will be back to touch on this but as stated before DC is easy to pump when focused on it. You also only add 1/2 binder level so the save is 27 not 32. Also even if you went straight binder that paralyze rounds is already insanely good already, adding 10 rounds is nothing.

Anyone worried about saves is already going to bind Ipos, Chupoclops, and Focalor so thats effectively a +5 to the save DC.

Golden-Esque
2011-01-08, 07:06 PM
I will be back to touch on this but as stated before DC is easy to pump when focused on it. You also only add 1/2 binder level so the save is 27 not 32. Also even if you went straight binder that paralyze rounds is already insanely good already, adding 10 rounds is nothing.

You're right that the save DC is only 27. That's my mistake. Given that new information, that means the Wyrm with a Fortitude of 20-25 fails its save on a 10% to 30% (nat 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6). That is still a 30% chance to instantly kill a CR 23 creature when you're a lowly 15th level character. The point of the math wasn't that Marchosias is overpowered or insanely good; he's definitely a good vestige. The point of the math is that your class feature makes it's noticeably easier for a single character to get lucky and prematurely end an encounter that he should have no chance of beating alone.


Anyone worried about saves is already going to bind Ipos, Chupoclops, and Focalor so thats effectively a +5 to the save DC.

To be fair, at 15th level you couldn't bind to Chuploclops or Ipos anyway so they don't really matter for the purpose of this discussion. Not to mention you could only include two of those three with Marchosias until 20th level, when you can bind to four vestiges. But the fact remains that your ability consistently adds a +5 to the DC of all Binder abilities at 10th level. As you pointed out, your one class feature is as good as stacking two 6th level vestiges with a 3rd level vestige. I think that's too powerful, you're welcome to your opinions, but without losing anything significant from the Binder class, I don't think this feature is worth it.

Demons_eye
2011-01-08, 08:17 PM
You're right that the save DC is only 27. That's my mistake. Given that new information, that means the Wyrm with a Fortitude of 20-25 fails its save on a 10% to 30% (nat 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, or 6). That is still a 30% chance to instantly kill a CR 23 creature when you're a lowly 15th level character. The point of the math wasn't that Marchosias is overpowered or insanely good; he's definitely a good vestige. The point of the math is that your class feature makes it's noticeably easier for a single character to get lucky and prematurely end an encounter that he should have no chance of beating alone.

But again gain a +5 to the save DC is not that hard meaning the problem with the ability lies in the death attack not the bonus binder levels.

You can get the same effect from:

Sudden Ability Focus (+2 once per day)
Assassin's Dagger (+1 with Death Attack) (Main weapon 18k)
Soul Lens (+1), 12k gp
Veil of Allure (+2), 14k gp

Again, meaning unless you would be willing to stop a player from gaining these items and one feat, that problem lies within the abilities of the powers. Yes I am saying you can emulate 44k worth of items but so can a wizard.




To be fair, at 15th level you couldn't bind to Chuploclops or Ipos anyway so they don't really matter for the purpose of this discussion. Not to mention you could only include two of those three with Marchosias until 20th level, when you can bind to four vestiges. But the fact remains that your ability consistently adds a +5 to the DC of all Binder abilities at 10th level. As you pointed out, your one class feature is as good as stacking two 6th level vestiges with a 3rd level vestige. I think that's too powerful, you're welcome to your opinions, but without losing anything significant from the Binder class, I don't think this feature is worth it.

A 15th level binder with Improved Binding can bind any vestige. Still limited to three but the point stands. Again the problem lies within the ability because you CAN get that save DC high without needing this class.

Stompy
2011-01-08, 10:07 PM
But again gain a +5 to the save DC is not that hard meaning the problem with the ability lies in the death attack not the bonus binder levels.

You can get the same effect from:

Sudden Ability Focus (+2 once per day)
Assassin's Dagger (+1 with Death Attack) (Main weapon 18k)
Soul Lens (+1), 12k gp
Veil of Allure (+2), 14k gp

Again, meaning unless you would be willing to stop a player from gaining these items and one feat, that problem lies within the abilities of the powers. Yes I am saying you can emulate 44k worth of items but so can a wizard.

What if I take those items AND your class?

Demons_eye
2011-01-08, 10:14 PM
What if I take those items AND your class?

I would assume you want to increase saves to insane levels and suggest to play a wizard with no save spells if you are that worried about it.

Golden-Esque
2011-01-08, 10:40 PM
But again gain a +5 to the save DC is not that hard meaning the problem with the ability lies in the death attack not the bonus binder levels.

You can get the same effect from:

Sudden Ability Focus (+2 once per day)
Assassin's Dagger (+1 with Death Attack) (Main weapon 18k)
Soul Lens (+1), 12k gp
Veil of Allure (+2), 14k gp

Again, meaning unless you would be willing to stop a player from gaining these items and one feat, that problem lies within the abilities of the powers. Yes I am saying you can emulate 44k worth of items but so can a wizard.

A 15th level binder with Improved Binding can bind any vestige. Still limited to three but the point stands. Again the problem lies within the ability because you CAN get that save DC high without needing this class.

What you don't seem to be getting, like Stompy said, is that you're not emulating anything with your class feature. All of this stuff stacks, and you're not even giving up anything (such as a ton of gold or vestige slots) to do this; all you "give up" is inconsequential abilities; namely Pact Augmentation and Soul Guardian. Besides, just because a Wizard can do it doesn't make it balanced, or have you not seen all of the complaining people do BECAUSE the Wizard can become so horribly optimized?

Thrice Dead Cat
2011-01-08, 10:41 PM
I would assume you want to increase saves to insane levels and suggest to play a wizard with no save spells if you are that worried about it.

Except that doesn't address the issue that it's doable with your prestige class. Certainly some issues of sudden increases in power are unavoidable due to the nature of 3.5, but considering how easy it was for you to find numerous boosts to save DCs having that be in effect the only class feature here is not a good idea.

Demons_eye
2011-01-09, 02:19 AM
What you don't seem to be getting, like Stompy said, is that you're not emulating anything with your class feature. All of this stuff stacks, and you're not even giving up anything (such as a ton of gold or vestige slots) to do this; all you "give up" is inconsequential abilities; namely Pact Augmentation and Soul Guardian. Besides, just because a Wizard can do it doesn't make it balanced, or have you not seen all of the complaining people do BECAUSE the Wizard can become so horribly optimized?


Except that doesn't address the issue that it's doable with your prestige class. Certainly some issues of sudden increases in power are unavoidable due to the nature of 3.5, but considering how easy it was for you to find numerous boosts to save DCs having that be in effect the only class feature here is not a good idea.

Well I am going to end up changing it because I am not getting anything useful out of this exchange. I have stated why I think its not over powered and you guys have stated why you think so. No one besides Golden has given me an opinion on an alternative though. I don't think a max of +3 binder level is worth going into the PrC.