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Yora
2011-01-08, 01:37 PM
I know, RPG design probably comes down to 60% creativity, 30% eyeballing, and 10% just making stuff up.

But being unable to find any system that really suits my needs, I want to give the whole thing a try myself. I've read about a lot of systems and think I can quite accurately say what aspects about them I like and which I don't, and I even have a basic idea of what might work.

But just out of curiousity, are there any guides, checklists, or how-to's out there for designing an RPG system? Not that I expect anything I can strongly rely on, but I wonder what other people have tried out and what they learned from it.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 01:39 PM
An important question is what you want from the system. Is it going to be generic? Is it going to be multi-genre (say, all fantasy compared to all speculative fiction or mythic fantasy)? Is it going to be a single genre? What do you want to emulate with the system?

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-01-08, 01:42 PM
Actually, it would be nice if someone compiled together a "good to have" Table of Contents, to get people thinking and to remind folk of what should be in an RPG book.

Yora
2011-01-08, 02:04 PM
An important question is what you want from the system. Is it going to be generic? Is it going to be multi-genre (say, all fantasy compared to all speculative fiction or mythic fantasy)? Is it going to be a single genre? What do you want to emulate with the system?
In my specific case, I've allready decided these things:
Only uses d6: I've not yet decided if the core mechanic will be 2d6 or 3d6, but I want the number of dice used to be relatively low.
Roll high against Target Number or Opposed Roll: Basically the same thing d20 does with it's 1d20 roll for every action. No dice-pool, thank you.
Adaptable to all genres: My two big passions when it comes to fiction are low-magic fantasy and hard post-cyberpunk. The system should work for both, but I think if that requirement is met, you can also make iron-age, pulp adventure, space opera, or whatever adventures as well.
Skill based: Not that predefined stereotypes (like knight, or thief) are bad, but Skill-based systems always seem to create much more interesting and detailed characters. Also I believe all class-based systems use character levels, which I really dislike because you always have to wait before certain option become available and certain enemies defeatable.
Simple rules: I really like the older editions of D&D, at least what I can tell from OSRIC and Gold & Glory. The only thing I really dislike about it, is the reliance on character levels. Fights are supposed to be short and require a few rolls over a handfull of rounds to decide which sides wins. The talking and exploring before, after, and between fights are to be the focus of the game. Combat itself is not what the adventures are about.
Low Bookkeeping: I want all the neccessary information to fit on one single sheet and without having to calculate many values. No keeping track of monney either.
Ability Scores/Stats: I think of using 6 to 8 base ability scores that define a character. Havn't decided yet which ones.
d20-Style Skill Sytem: But others used something similar as well. Roll the dice, ass the appropriate ability score plus your skill rank.
Special Abilities: Spells and special attacks are covered by special abilities, much like Feats and Talents in d20 or Attributes in Tri-Stat.

I think this is already an almost finished system. The things I'm still unsure about is how to handle costs for buying skills and abilities, and a hit point and healing system.

Xefas
2011-01-08, 02:09 PM
There was a thread like this 2 weeks ago, so I hope you don't mind if I simply quote myself.


I highly suggest this podcast episode (http://frontrowcrew.com/geeknights/20100727/luke-and-jared-on-rpgs/), which is an interview with Luke Crane and Jared Sorensen (two of the most, and possibly the most, successful indie RPG makers) on the nature of RPGs, what makes RPGs good, and how to make a good RPG. There are also some silly tangents, and much swearing.
The podcast I linked in that post isn't going to go over mechanics necessarily. It's going to tell you where to start with making a good RPG. Hint: You don't start with mechanics. d20 vs 3d6 vs d100 or whatever does not make your RPG interesting. Roll + Compare to Difficulty vs Dicepool vs Playing Cards does not make your RPG interesting. Oh, it might make your game interesting, but there's a difference. Which brings me to my next post.


Well, before starting on crunch, I'd say you should figure out whether you want a "Good Roleplaying Game" or a "Good Game" that can also have roleplaying.

The latter requires entirely different crunch than the former. The latter is going to concern itself with making the math of the game interesting and balanced. Take World of Warcraft for example - the developers are focused on making "5 damage" or "2 damage + 1 damage every second for 4 seconds" or "3 damage, and your next hit does an additional 2.5 damage" engaging. D&D also tries to do this with "+5 attack bonus for 1d8+5", "+2/+2 attack bonus for 1d6+1 each", or "2 automatic damage in an area" engaging. Exalted too, with "10 dice" or "5 dice and 2 successes" or "8 dice and its a mote cheaper" or whatever. These all try to be Good Games, and you can even roleplay in them.

The former doesn't emphasize that sort of thing as much. The crunch should make the roleplaying interesting, rather than the math. In Mouse Guard, when a player is saying to himself "I could forsake my character's beliefs, and make him out to be a hypocrite so that he can make life easy for himself, OR I could play to his beliefs, he can stand strong, and totally screw himself over, but get some artha for it" that's good roleplaying mechanics. The mechanics propel you into interesting roleplaying situations - what mechanics actually decide the outcome of those situations isn't as important. You can roll a couple dice; whatever. The point is to get to the next interesting roleplaying situation, not do math for 2 hours.

One of the greatest strengths for one of the former types of games is the idea of "Losing should be fun". In Exalted, if you're not a warrior type character, and you get into a fight and lose, you're probably going to die. Which isn't fun. In Mouse Guard, if you're not a warrior type character, and you get into a fight and lose, your character instead faces the consequences of not being a warrior - without dying. If he dies, then there's no opportunity for him to be in an interesting roleplaying situation. While alive, he has to contemplate what he lost, and what his non-warrior beliefs are worth.

Basically, if the threat of death is important to You: The Player, then you're playing a Game and roleplaying in it, rather than playing a Roleplaying Game.

So, don't even think about "combat" or "magic" or whatever, until you've figured out how you'll use the mechanics to launch your players into interesting roleplaying. Assuming you actually want to make an "RPG" and not "A game that people label as an RPG because it has leveling and experience".
Keep in mind that making a Good RPG is hard. Very hard. If you want to make a good, lasting, interesting game that might even be bought for, y'know money, it will most certainly take years.

I also suggest getting as much experience with as many RPGs as possible. If you've only ever played 3.5 D&D, you've been living at the absolute bottom of the barrel. How can you possibly have perspective when the only game you've played is, from an RPG design perspective, like 2 steps up from FATAL? (I'm not saying this about you; I have no idea what your history with games is like - I'm just illustrating a point) Play Paranoia, play KAMB, play Inspectors, Shock, Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard, Lacuna, Bliss Stage, Free Market. Get some experience. It's important.

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 02:19 PM
Also, play one good generic game and play one very purpose-built game (say, GURPS and The Mountain Witch or Tri-Stat dX and Mighty Mormon Power Rangers Dogs in the Vineyard). Try to emulate the purpose-built game using the generic game in as few steps as possible. Try to understand why each game does something the way it does on the way.

Yora
2011-01-08, 02:21 PM
That reminds me that I still havn't had a single look at Mouse Guard. Certainly not what I want to play, but like people always describe it it sounds like being short of the Holy Grail of Roleplaying-RPGs. :smallbiggrin:

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-08, 02:28 PM
Burning Wheel, Mouse Guard

To be fair, you only need to play one of these, because Mouse Guard as far as I can tell is pretty much Burning Wheel lite with mice against snakes.

Yora
2011-01-08, 02:30 PM
Is there a way to get an idea of the rules before spending monney?

Xefas
2011-01-08, 02:42 PM
That reminds me that I still havn't had a single look at Mouse Guard. Certainly not what I want to play, but like people always describe it it sounds like being short of the Holy Grail of Roleplaying-RPGs. :smallbiggrin:

It...kind of is. It's Burning Wheel Lite. Me, I like less rules-intensive systems, so Mouse Guard is like the secks for me. People who like D&D-esque deluges of rules will probably like Burning Wheel Revised better.

Whether a game is rules-heavy or rules-light does not necessarily make it better or worse. Rather, you have to make sure that the rules that you have serve a purpose.

Also, Mouse Guard is an awesome setting.

http://i925.photobucket.com/albums/ad91/bluejanus/MouseGuard.png

Especially if you like Fievel Goes West + Shadow of the Colossus.


To be fair, you only need to play one of these, because Mouse Guard as far as I can tell is pretty much Burning Wheel lite with mice against snakes.

I would say play both. They give a good illustration of "Good RPG Design + Heavy Rules" and then "The Exact Same Good RPG Design Tenets + Light Rules".

Mulletmanalive
2011-01-08, 03:05 PM
Odd you say that granular/skill based systems create more detailed characters because i've tended to find exactly the opposite be true...

Characters start out interesting and what-not, but after about 3 sessions, all the characters start to move towards a sort of boring generic with everyone trying to get in on everything and avoid having any weaknesses.

WoD being the worst for this because Dex is the god-stat so big fat loser concepts are very soon above averagely dexterous...

Yora
2011-01-08, 03:39 PM
I think this is because skill based systems are inherently unbalanced. It's part of how the whole thing works.
When playing such a game, it's important to keep that in mind. If you play in a group that has an ability oriented style, the freedom to optimize the hell out of it can get you into serious trouble. If you're looking for ways to represent the characters personalties and the abilities they should have according to their backstory, I don't see any problem with this.

Fail
2011-01-08, 03:56 PM
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=31521
http://tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=50794 (a bit further down).

Dust
2011-01-08, 04:10 PM
In my specific case, I've allready decided these things:
Only uses d6: I've not yet decided if the core mechanic will be 2d6 or 3d6, but I want the number of dice used to be relatively low.
Roll high against Target Number or Opposed Roll: Basically the same thing d20 does with it's 1d20 roll for every action. No dice-pool, thank you.
Adaptable to all genres: My two big passions when it comes to fiction are low-magic fantasy and hard post-cyberpunk. The system should work for both, but I think if that requirement is met, you can also make iron-age, pulp adventure, space opera, or whatever adventures as well.
Skill based: Not that predefined stereotypes (like knight, or thief) are bad, but Skill-based systems always seem to create much more interesting and detailed characters. Also I believe all class-based systems use character levels, which I really dislike because you always have to wait before certain option become available and certain enemies defeatable.
Simple rules: I really like the older editions of D&D, at least what I can tell from OSRIC and Gold & Glory. The only thing I really dislike about it, is the reliance on character levels. Fights are supposed to be short and require a few rolls over a handfull of rounds to decide which sides wins. The talking and exploring before, after, and between fights are to be the focus of the game. Combat itself is not what the adventures are about.
Low Bookkeeping: I want all the neccessary information to fit on one single sheet and without having to calculate many values. No keeping track of monney either.
Ability Scores/Stats: I think of using 6 to 8 base ability scores that define a character. Havn't decided yet which ones.
d20-Style Skill Sytem: But others used something similar as well. Roll the dice, ass the appropriate ability score plus your skill rank.
Special Abilities: Spells and special attacks are covered by special abilities, much like Feats and Talents in d20 or Attributes in Tri-Stat.


Your values are highly similar to mine. Some tips;

- Be prepared for a lot of work, and get friends to agree to playtest ahead of time. You might eschew this one, but this was the #1 thing I learned when doing the game in my sig. Forum advice is nice, but you don't truly see the glaring flaws until you actually sit down to play. And there will be.

- Find something that makes your system (sort of!) unique and centralize around that, at least at the start. Having a rock-solid core makes for an easier design process as you work outward from that starting point.

- Before you design an RPG, play FATE (I recommend the Dresden Files rpg) and Mouse Guard at least once. Seeing outside-the-box thinking will jump-start your creative juices.

Yora
2011-01-09, 07:51 AM
That sounds a bit like forcefully including a gimic.
True, if you just do something that other people have done before, nobody will care about it. But I have a very clear idea what I dislike about all the other systems that are available and want to create something that adresses all these issues.
I make this mostly for my own use, but I guess there are other people who look for the same things in an RPG and might also be interested in it. Getting people to know about it is probably a lot easier if you have a gimic, so they can say "it's the game in which X". But I don't think that improves the quality of the game.

shawnhcorey
2011-01-09, 09:49 AM
When design a RPG, you get to know what is currently available. Here is a list of free RPGs. You should not just read them; if possible, you should get some friends together and play them.


Ars Magica (http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/)
Revised (v.3.5)System Reference Document (D20) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)
Fate (http://www.faterpg.com/)
Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/)
GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)
Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)
Wushu (http://wiki.saberpunk.net/Wushu/HomePage)

The Rose Dragon
2011-01-09, 10:01 AM
When design a RPG, you get to know what is currently available. Here is a list of free RPGs. You should not just read them; if possible, you should get some friends together and play them.


Ars Magica (http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/)
Revised (v.3.5)System Reference Document (D20) (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)
Fate (http://www.faterpg.com/)
Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/)
GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)
Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)
Wushu (http://wiki.saberpunk.net/Wushu/HomePage)


I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that you did not include Witchcraft (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1) in that list.

shawnhcorey
2011-01-09, 11:00 AM
I am shocked, shocked I tell you, that you did not include Witchcraft (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1) in that list.

So noted.


Ars Magica (http://www.atlas-games.com/arsmagica/)
D20 - Revised (v.3.5)System Reference Document (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35)
Fate (http://www.faterpg.com/)
Fudge (http://www.fudgerpg.com/)
GURPS Lite (http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/lite/)
Risus (http://www222.pair.com/sjohn/risus.htm)
Witchcraft (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=692&it=1)
Wushu (http://wiki.saberpunk.net/Wushu/HomePage)