PDA

View Full Version : Venerable Lich?



Sarakos
2011-01-09, 11:34 PM
I was preparing a BBEG for a short campaign, as o was going through stats I realized that as a former human who is know well passed the qualifying age for humans to become venerable.

Can a 400 year old Lich qualify to become venerable? If so, is it appropriate to apply all the usual penalties to physical stats for living being to an undead immortal?

Deth Muncher
2011-01-09, 11:35 PM
I was preparing a BBEG for a short campaign, as o was going through stats I realized that as a former human who is know well passed the qualifying age for humans to become venerable.

Can a 400 year old Lich qualify to become venerable? If so, is it appropriate to apply all the usual penalties to physical stats for living being to an undead immortal?

That's...a really good point. Do sentient undead get age bonuses? I feel this would be gamebreaking for Wizard liches.

Coidzor
2011-01-09, 11:37 PM
Not by RAW, since Undead don't age or taking aging penalties.

However, if the Lich was able to avoid the penalties of aging(or just took them, since Con goes out the window after lichification), he could become a Lich after aging to venerable status and retain the modifications to the base ability scores.

Alternatively, there is the Evolved Undead template which represents a very similar thematic thing of undead gaining in power with age and exposure to sources of power, of which both fluff things a Lich would be very likely to have. I believe it's from Libris Mortis.

As for a house rule that allows aging penalties/benefits to undead, I could see Liches and certain other undead certainly becoming stiffer with age and dessication, and more cerebral undead expanding their cognitive functions. Though I would say it'd probably be slightly different for different types of undead whether they age and what sorts of bonus/penalties they take.

Since they are technically capable of being magically maintained with things like gentle repose as well as infusions of negative energy amongst more esoteric things not explicitly covered in the rules.

Then again, maybe living to the point where the body's no longer capable of much/any motility is what triggers the transformation into Demi-Lich!?

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-09, 11:38 PM
IIRC, the moment you stop aging, you can still accrue the aging bonuses from being a certain age, but you don't acquire any further aging penalties after that. :smallamused: Nice, right?

The-Mage-King
2011-01-09, 11:38 PM
I believe undead don'tget aging bonuses, because their body is kept in the state it was when they became undead, and is forever the same.
Yeah. That was made up on the spot.

However, there is a lovely little template called "Evolved Undead" from the Book of Bad Latin that should be what you're looking for.


EDIT: DAMN YOU, SWORDSAGE!

Waker
2011-01-09, 11:39 PM
Nope, any bonuses that the Lich had gained while alive would carry over, but the undead do not age. You can advance an undead by alternate means by using Evolved Undead template from Libris Mortis. Basically it states that every 100 years an undead has the chance to evolve.

Siosilvar
2011-01-09, 11:41 PM
If Liches get aging penalties, that would imply that there is a maximum life on liches...

which would mean awesome plotline for any lich long enough to figure this out! New quest: find true immortality!



By RAW, as others pointed out, no, you don't get aging penalties or bonuses (though you keep the bonuses you have).

Sarakos
2011-01-09, 11:50 PM
Evolved undead from Libris Mortis you guys say? I never gave Libris Mortis more than a cursory glance (way too many 3.5 books not enough free time on my hands).

Unfortunately the flashdrive that held my 3.5 books went through the wash this morning and the back up copies on my laptop are unreachable for the forseeable future (in other words until I can buy a replacement power cord for the thing) can anyone give me a brief rundown of what evolved undead are?

Deth Muncher
2011-01-09, 11:51 PM
Evolved undead from Libris Mortis you guys say? I never gave Libris Mortis more than a cursory glance (way too many 3.5 books not enough free time on my hands).

Unfortunately the flashdrive that held my 3.5 books went through the wash this morning and the back up copies on my laptop are unreachable for the forseeable future (in other words until I can buy a replacement power cord for the thing) can anyone give me a brief rundown of what evolved undead are?

You mean your legally obtained copy of the book went through the wash, right? This is what you mean.

Sarakos
2011-01-09, 11:55 PM
You mean your legally obtained copy of the book went through the wash, right? This is what you mean.

Exactly sir

Edit: if posting something like that is against forum rules. Then don't bother, I'll take the incentive to get off my lazy butt and buy a new cord

Edit edit: I should have also specified that this was for a Pathfinder game and I'd like to stick as much to the Pathfinder PDFs I bought (has my name on em and everything :D) as possible I wouldn't object to adapting some 3.5 material if it fits the theme, which it seems to, and doesn't slaughter my player, which I might accidentally do on my own :(

Waker
2011-01-10, 12:00 AM
Every 100 years (Or whenever the DM feels like it) there is a 1% chance that an undead evolves. The changes are as follows.
Natural or Deflection increases by 1.
Gains SLA 1/day (Roll 1d12 to determine): Circle of Death, Cloudkill, Cone of Cold, Confusion, Contagion, Creeping Doom, Greater Dispel Magic, Greater Invisibility, Haste, Hold Monster, See Invisibility, Unholy Blight.
Gains Fast Healing 3 as long as it has at least 1hp.
Corporeal gains +2Str/Cha, Incorporeal only gains +2 Cha
+1 CR
Template can be gained multiple times.

Trekkin
2011-01-10, 12:01 AM
He could also mean that the book he physically owns is beyond his reach, and the pdf he legally made as a backup copy has become inaccessible. IIRC current copyright law allows you to space-shift material yourself.

Psyren
2011-01-10, 12:06 AM
All "Evolved Undead" gives you is +2 Str and Cha, a random SLA from a wonky grabbag (some gems, some turkeys), a tiny boost to AC and some fast healing. The template can be applied multiple times, but it won't do squat for a wizard lich.

It also increases the LA each time, though that won't matter in this case.

Dr Bwaa
2011-01-10, 12:17 AM
Evolved undead is pretty cool; just bear in mind how old you actually have to be to reasonably have evolved once or twice. As Waker said, you have a 1% chance of evolving every hundred years, so if you're going to take the template once or twice, better make sure your DM is okay with it and you're old enough to justify it. I also prefer to work out an arrangement with the DM as to what SLA you get, so you can get something flavorful for your character rather than just junky and random.

The-Mage-King
2011-01-10, 12:18 AM
Evolved undead is pretty cool; just bear in mind how old you actually have to be to reasonably have evolved once or twice. As Waker said, you have a 1% chance of evolving every hundred years, so if you're going to take the template once or twice, better make sure your DM is okay with it and you're old enough to justify it. I also prefer to work out an arrangement with the DM as to what SLAs are actually on the list, so you can get something flavorful for your character rather than just random and probably obviously so.

He IS the DM.

Dr Bwaa
2011-01-10, 12:20 AM
He IS the DM.

My statement stands as it is :smalltongue: As long as you can convince yourself that 400 years is enough time to have evolved once or twice, have at it. I do think the SLAs offer some pretty flavorful customization, especially for a main character--PC or BBEG, either way.

EDIT: Also, that reply was crazy fast. Your forum-fu is strong.

Waker
2011-01-10, 12:21 AM
The nice thing about the template is that you can sneak it in without changing an encounter that much, so the players won't cry too hard. Of course as a DM, you can just tailor a monster to your needs, but for those who require something to be written down, this is handy.

The-Mage-King
2011-01-10, 12:23 AM
My statement stands as it is :smalltongue: As long as you can convince yourself that 400 years is enough time to have evolved once or twice, have at it. I do think the SLAs offer some pretty flavorful customization, especially for a main character--PC or BBEG, either way.

EDIT: Also, that reply was crazy fast. Your forum-fu is strong.

Yes. Yes it is.

Coidzor
2011-01-10, 12:36 AM
4 1% chances, right?.01 *.01 *.01 *.01 = 1.0 ◊ 10-8

.01 * .99 * .99 * .99 = 0.00970299

.01 * .01 * .99 * .99 = 9.80100 ◊ 10-5

.01 * .01 * .01 * .99 = 9.9 ◊ 10-7

...Dangit, I forgot what math to use here to calculate the probability of getting at least one as opposed to the probability of only getting one.

Curse you rarely utilized math learned in high school! *shakes fist*

Darth Crater
2011-01-10, 01:12 AM
The probability of at least 1 is:

1 - (probability of none) = 1 - (.99)^4 = 0.03940399, or about 4%.

Bakkan
2011-01-10, 05:43 AM
The chances of getting X successes in N trials, where each trial has a probability P of success, is

(N!/(X!*(N-X)!))*P^X*(1-P)^(N-X)

This is the Binomial Distribution.

/math

Runestar
2011-01-10, 05:49 AM
I made a venerable lich once. He was a druid with timeless body (I ruled that since he continued to age and his brain developed, he got the mental stat bonuses, but none of the physical stat penalties. Only after he reached venerable did he undergo the process for becoming a lich. :smalltongue:

Thurbane
2011-01-10, 05:49 AM
If Liches get aging penalties, that would imply that there is a maximum life on liches...

which would mean awesome plotline for any lich long enough to figure this out! New quest: find true immortality!
IIRC, back in the 1E days, Liches had to bargain with Night Hags to get Larva essences to prolong their un-lives.

Psyren
2011-01-10, 06:48 AM
I made a venerable lich once. He was a druid with timeless body (I ruled that since he continued to age and his brain developed, he got the mental stat bonuses, but none of the physical stat penalties. Only after he reached venerable did he undergo the process for becoming a lich. :smalltongue:

That's RAW, not simply how you ruled. Timeless Body stops aging penalties but not aging bonuses.

FelixG
2011-01-10, 06:53 AM
Now if you want the most broken thing you can find...

Lich + (non psionic) Genesis.

They proceed to create a new plane where every second on the material plane is say...a million years on their plane, then they jump there.

Now, bring the evolved undead template in...as it has a +1% cumulative every hundread years...thats only 10,000 years to get to 100% chance of achieving it! Now assuming they failed every single check before getting to 100...they could still get the template applied about 59,000 times in one round :smallbiggrin:

Stupid in the extreme, but funny.

Greenish
2011-01-10, 07:30 AM
If Liches get aging penalties, that would imply that there is a maximum life on liches...That does not necessarily follow. Elans and killoren, for example, can age to venerable, but never die of old age.

Warforged can age to middle-aged, some claim.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-10, 07:56 AM
What if a Dragonwrought Kobold reached venerable age before becoming a lich? Or do you mean reaching venerable age after gaining lichdom?

Psyren
2011-01-10, 08:01 AM
Liches don't age because they are undead, not because they are immortal. You would have to become Venerable before you die.

As for Evolved Undead, as I said before - that only works if the lich in question was a sorcerer. Evolved Undead does nothing for your Int or Wis scores.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-10, 08:31 AM
Stupid in the extreme, but funny.Time traits aren't one of the things you get to control with Genesis, IIRC. :smallconfused:

Plus, your LA would be high enough after taking the template so many times that you'd probably never get experience again. And not just because the DM makes you eat your character sheet...

2xMachina
2011-01-10, 08:38 AM
Time traits aren't one of the things you get to control with Genesis, IIRC. :smallconfused:


Arcane Genesis is broken that way.

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-10, 08:44 AM
Arcane Genesis is broken that way.Lemme just check my good buddy, the SRD...


The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.Doesn't seem to say anything about time traits. :smalltongue:

2xMachina
2011-01-10, 11:29 AM
The spellcaster determines the environment within the demiplane when he or she first casts genesis, reflecting most any desire the spellcaster can visualize. The spellcaster determines factors such as atmosphere, water, temperature, and the general shape of the terrain.

Such as means that the list is non-exhaustive. If there are other environment that the caster can visualize, it could be done.

Psionic Genesis explicitly states that you cannot change the time traits, while the arcane versions does not. This implies that the Arcane version CAN determine time traits.

FelixG
2011-01-10, 11:35 AM
Lemme just check my good buddy, the SRD...

Doesn't seem to say anything about time traits. :smalltongue:

Thats because you didnt take a look at the second version

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/genesis.htm



Similarly, you canít create a demiplane out of esoteric material, such as silver or uranium; youíre limited to stone and dirt. You canít manipulate the time trait on your demiplane; its time trait is as the Material Plane.


Now the Arcane Genesis has neither of these limits!

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spells/genesis.htm

You could have a plane made of Mitheral, Ademantine, or Platinum if you so wished and you can adjust the time trait :smallbiggrin: Most GMs I have played with rule that the Psionic version is erreta for the Arcane one though

TheCountAlucard
2011-01-10, 04:02 PM
Just because it doesn't say you can't do something... :sigh:

But no, please, continue to string us along with suggestions that any half-brained GM would shoot down in a heartbeat. PLEASE.

FelixG
2011-01-10, 04:13 PM
Just because it doesn't say you can't do something... :sigh:

But no, please, continue to string us along with suggestions that any half-brained GM would shoot down in a heartbeat. PLEASE.

I did point out it was stupid did I not? :P

Jack_Simth
2011-01-10, 09:48 PM
As to the OP, it is undefined in RAW. Or rather, the Lich template doesn't specifically state that it changes how you age - at all. So exactly as written, as the template does not specify, everything works as it does for the base creature. So your 30 year old human turns himself into a lich. 5 years later, he's a 35 year old Lich(Human). Which is middle aged. He gets a -1 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats. 18 years later, he's 53, which is Old. He gets a -2 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats. 17 years later, he's 70, which is Venerable. He gets a -3 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats. 2d20 years later, he reaches his maximum age, and dies at some point the following year.

That's exactly as things are written.

It totally goes against the flavor of the lich, however, so most people house-rule the absurdity. But once you realize you're technically house-ruling the absurdity, you are free to pick specific mechanics of how it works to your tastes.


Now, bring the evolved undead template in...as it has a +1% cumulative every hundread years...thats only 10,000 years to get to 100% chance of achieving it! Actually, as they're independent chances, it actually works out to something closer to 63% chance that he'll get at least one time. Not that most people will care.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-10, 10:39 PM
Actually, as they're independent chances, it actually works out to something closer to 63% chance that he'll get at least one time. Not that most people will care.

Pretty sure it IS cumulative chances.

Just checked. It's 1% for every 100 years, cumulative, plus an additional 1% for each time you succeeded before.

Year 100: 1% chance.
Year 200: 2%(3% if you succeeded in year 100)
Year 300: 3%(4% if you succeeded in year 100 or 200, 5% if you succeeded both times)

And so on.

Sarakos
2011-01-10, 11:41 PM
As to the OP, it is undefined in RAW. Or rather, the Lich template doesn't specifically state that it changes how you age - at all. So exactly as written, as the template does not specify, everything works as it does for the base creature. So your 30 year old human turns himself into a lich. 5 years later, he's a 35 year old Lich(Human). Which is middle aged. He gets a -1 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats. 18 years later, he's 53, which is Old. He gets a -2 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats. 17 years later, he's 70, which is Venerable. He gets a -3 to all physical stats, and a +1 to all mental stats. 2d20 years later, he reaches his maximum age, and dies at some point the following year.

That's exactly as things are written.

It totally goes against the flavor of the lich, however, so most people house-rule the absurdity. But once you realize you're technically house-ruling the absurdity, you are free to pick specific mechanics of how it works to your tastes.

Actually, as they're independent chances, it actually works out to something closer to 63% chance that he'll get at least one time. Not that most people will care.

As most fluff supports that Liches don't change much over years and, in fact are kind of stuck in a rut (read this in one of the evilish 3.5 books, probably Libris Mortis but dont quote me too specifically on this) after becoming Undead. I would probably cap the bonus at Venerable to represent any sentient creature's ability to learn from its mistakes and adapt, however slowly and use the above fluff to support it. Once i find it anyway lol

2xMachina
2011-01-11, 04:35 AM
Just because it doesn't say you can't do something... :sigh:

But no, please, continue to string us along with suggestions that any half-brained GM would shoot down in a heartbeat. PLEASE.

There are example planes where the time is 10:1. Even without genesis cheese, plane shifting there gets you 10x the speed.

There are also planes where it's 60:1 slower than material plane.