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Makeitstop
2011-01-10, 08:32 AM
I was rather surprised that this wasn't already in a monster manual somewhere, and since I thought it sounded like it would be a cool player race, I thought I'd give it a shot.

Plus, look at this picture I found, who wouldn't want one of these:http://www.sverror.com/uploads/2/8/1/9/2819457/50584.png?642

Edit: After considering everyone's feedback, I came up with this revised Rhinotaur:
Edit 2: Revised powerful frame rules.
Edit 3: Brought back mithril stacking and modified powerful charge



+2 Str, +2 Con
Medium, Monstrous humanoid
Speed 30
+2 Natural armor
Natural attack: Gore 1d8
Powerful Charge: Bonus damage on gore attack equal to base gore attack damage + Str
Scent
Near sighted: - 2 to spot checks, +2 to listen checks
Powerful frame: Treat all armor as one class lighter (Heavy → Medium → Light) and gain +1 max dex bonus, -1 armor check penalty. Leather and padded armor may be treated as clothing. +50% carrying capacity.
Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus languages: Draconic, sylvan, dwarven, elven, goblin.
Level Adjustment: +1


Fluff:

Appearance

Rhinotaurs are large, bulky, muscular, humanoid Rhinos, with thick gray skin and large horns. Male and Female Rhinotaurs are roughly the same size (6-7 feet tall, 350-400 pounds), though females have slightly shorter, more “human” faces and feminine features.

Rhinotaurs often have intricate carvings in their horns, denoting ranks, titles, honors, agreements, marriages, or just because they're pretty. Symbols which are meant to mark obligations will be replaced if damaged, but honors and other more frivolous things will simply be left in the past and the loss, treated as an opportunity to earn new ones. Should a Rhinotaur horn be lost completely, it will grow back in time.


Names
Rhinotaur names consist of a given name and an honor name, in whichever order sounds best. Given names are typically borrowed from other races, most often human, while honor names are descriptors based on notable accomplishments and traits, for example: Silent Stalker Jarek. Though this is sufficient most of the time, for official records and formal use, Rhinotaurs use their full name, consisting of their given and honor name, followed by the given names of their twin, father and mother, and any ranks, titles, and additional honors earned. Example: Haikon Thunder Fist, Brother of Enora, Son of Arkon and Isha, Captain of the Citadel guard; Dragon Slayer, and Griffon Rider.


Rhinotaur life and society

Rhinotaurs are renowned warriors who live in tribes on the plains. They were originally created by a powerful Sorcerer who used them as his army. When they overthrew him, their leaders declared that they would never conquer others again, and swore to aid their neighbors as allies in times of peril. As such, they have strong ties with many races, and often serve an important role as merchants and diplomats, as well as neutral arbiters between rival factions.

Despite their animal nature, Rhinotaurs are just as intelligent and thoughtful as any other sentient race. While naturally adept at combat, they are just as likely to be found living as artists, craftsman, merchants or clerics. There are even Rhinotaur wizards, though their history has lead them to view professional magic users with suspicion. Many Rhinotaurs even have the capacity to become warlocks (a trait most likely attributable to the means by which they were created) though few ever do so publicly, as it is a major taboo.

Rhinotaur culture is focused on discipline, honor and personal growth. From birth, Rhinotaurs are taught to strive for perfection in mind, body and spirit. For a Rhinotaur, it is not enough to master a single discipline, they must be ready for every situation, and utilize all of their potential. It is not unusual for Rhinotaurs to master multiple vocations over a lifetime.

The obsession with perfection and personal development isn't just an inwardly focused principle. Rhinotaurs want all sentient beings to fulfill their potential and push the limits of their abilities. For example, if a small band of Rhinotaur warriors were to come across a village that was facing imminent destruction at the hands of an Orc horde, the Rhinotaurs would be willing to lend assistance, but would be more concerned with empowering the villagers to defend themselves than with fighting a battle for them. On the other hand, if they were to come across a beggar, most Rhinotaurs would refuse to give even a single copper unless the beggar did something to earn it. Still, they are not cruel or irrational, and will generally lend free aid to those who are in situations which they cannot reasonably handle on their own.

Like any society, Rhinotaurs also have their rebels and outsiders. By nature, Rhinotaurs are stubborn, hot headed, and prone to fits of terrible rage. Most Rhinotaurs view these traits as incredibly shameful weaknesses, and never allow themselves to lose control, even for an instance, but there are always a few who never accept the rigid concepts of discipline and honor. These rebellious individuals are unwelcome among their own people, and almost always leave at a young age (and those who don't eventually earn an exile or a violent death). Those who leave are mourned, and considered dead by those who they leave behind. Some find work as soldiers or mercenaries (Rhinotaur scouts being particularly sought after), while others become barbarians and bandits. As they grow older and more mature, some will eventually return home, but most never look back.


Family Life

Rhinotaurs are slow to enter into marriage, as there is no divorce, and the only way to exit a marriage is through death or exile. Rhinotaurs mate for life and consider the marital bond to be sacred. Courtship typically involves both parties attempting to impress each other and earn their respect. If they should dive straight into bed however, they would be considered married, and though somewhat scandalous, such events are not entirely rare.

Rhinotaur parents are part teacher, part drill sergeant, and part jailor. One parent is with the children at all times, with both parents taking shifts watching over them. During that time, it is the parent's job to pass on all their knowledge and wisdom, as well as put them through strict training and conditioning. Even as a child grows older and begins to run off and play with other children, a parent is always watching from a distance. Despite the constant supervision, Rhinotaur children often get into trouble, as their parents will not intervene unless the child is in real danger. Instead, the parent will typically use each situation as an opportunity to teach the child a lesson, and force it to solve it's own problems. Once a Rhinotaur reaches adulthood however, they rarely stay in contact with their parents, and some may never see them again. From an outsiders perspective, this seems like it would be difficult, but Rhinotaur discipline and self-reliance makes the process mostly painless.

All Rhinotaurs are born in a set of twins, one male and one female, an unusual trait bestowed upon them by their creator in order to ensure that they would always have a stable gender ratio. The bond between brother and sister is powerful, and can never be broken. Even after reaching adulthood, twins typically live together until one marries, and even then they are rarely far from each other. Most tribes are in fact long chains of twins, and theirs spouses, and their spouses' twins. In cases of exile, it's not unheard of for a twin to follow after the exile, both out of devotion, and in the hopes of reforming them. There are even stories of twins whose bonds are supernatural in nature, and of dead siblings who remain with their twin as ghosts. Despite this, Rhinotaurs will not admit to being dependent upon a twin, and when their paths diverge, consider themselves honor bound to remain stoic, and go their separate ways.


Rhinotaur settlements

Rhinotaur society is spread out across their vast homeland. Though they control and police all of their land, they consider all areas outside of their settlements to be neutral territory, open to everyone so long as they act peacefully and honorably. The settlements themselves however are reserved for the Rhinotaurs, and can only be entered by outsiders at the discretion of the local populace, which typically requires a Rhinotaur to take responsibility for their actions.

Much of the Rhinotaur population lives in small tribes in the center of the plains. These settlements are often little more than a collection of tents and huts gathered around a useful geographic feature. Though they are not truly nomadic, Rhinotaurs are always ready to leave at a moment's notice. The only truly permanent settlements are the eight ancestral cities, found in the ruins of the fortresses that circle their territory, and the Citadel, the old sorcerer's tower that has become their capital city. The fortresses are left in ruins, repaired only to the extent necessary to keep them from collapsing. The Citadel however has seen constant repairs and renovations, transforming it from a sorcerer's seat of power to a great city filled with culture and commerce. These sites serve as a memorial to their shameful origins, a reminder of what they were, and a symbol of all they strive to become.


Politics and Law

Rhinotaurs have little government outside of their capital city. Because most Rhinotaur settlements are small, tight knit communities, most disputes are settled as matters of honor, with the potential loss of trust and respect from neighbors being incentive enough to force some form of resolution. Decisions which affect the whole community are settled through gatherings, in which all community members reach a decision. The decision need not be truly unanimous, but there can be no objection. Because stubbornness is considered dishonorable, indecision is rare, even more so than violence.

In the ancestral cities, gatherings are closed to the general public, and can only be attended by orators, leaders who are empowered to speak for others. Upon reaching adulthood, a small chunk is cut from a Rhinotaur's horn (making room for the carving of their first honor name) on which is carved their full name. This chunk of horn is their orator's token, an item to be given to whoever they trust to speak for them. Unlike simple gatherings, orator's gathering often settle matters with votes, in which each orator has as many votes as he has tokens.

The Citadel is host to the assembly, a gathering of Orator's from across the land. The assembly handles all matters which affect the Rhinotaur nation as a whole, as well as foreign relations. In order to accommodate trade, the assembly is in charge of passing laws which govern the behavior of outsiders, and appoints leadership to run the Citadel, including a captain of the guard, magistrates, and record keepers. This more formal structure is important, as the Citadel is open to people of all nations and races, many of whom do not share the Rhinotaur's concern for honor.


Exile

While most disputes are resolved naturally in order to avoid dishonor, and shame is typically all the punishment that is necessary on occasion, that is not enough. When a Rhinotaur is considered a danger to others, he is exiled from the lands. A gathering must be held, and cannot be concluded until a unanimous decision is reached. If the decision is made to exile a Rhinotaur, his orator's token is taken and sent to the assembly to record the exile, and in an excruciatingly painful process, fang shaped cuts are made beneath the eyes, a sign to all that the exile is a beast, not a man.

Sometimes, a respected member of the community will be allowed to intervene and take responsibility for a potential exile, in the hopes that he might be able to turn him around. This is not a task to be taken lightly however, as the mentor is agreeing to tie his fate to that of his ward, and if an exile still occurs later on, both are exiled.

Once exiled, a Rhinotaur is allowed to return only once, in order to plead their case before the assembly. An exile may claim to have been cast out unfairly, or they may argue they have changed, and should be given a second chance. A few elderly exiles have returned only to make a last statement of defiance. It is their right to address the assembly as they see fit, an act given all the respect afforded to a man's last words.

Exiles are uncommon, and returns are exceedingly rare, so these meetings are given all the time necessary to reach a fair conclusion. If the assembly votes to redeem the exile, the confiscated token is returned, and word is sent out across the nation declaring the good news. If the assembly votes to maintain the exile, two new cuts are made, from the back of the horn, up the forehead between the eyes and ears and down to the back of the exiles neck. This new mark shows that the exile has exhausted his one chance to return, and must never set foot in his homeland again.


The Pilgrimage

When Rhinotaurs reach adulthood, they must undertake the pilgrimage as a rite of passage. They are required to travel to the eight ancestral cities (often a challenge in itself) and in each one, earn the approval of a master. This can be as simple as a single competition, or may take weeks of intense study and training, whatever the master chooses. Each city has many masters, each considered the best in that city at a particular discipline. To be a master is both an honor and a duty, and is used both to serve others and as a way of growing through constant challenges.

Once a Rhinotaur has gained the approval of eight masters of physical, mental and spiritual disciplines, he must travel to the Citadel and choose his honor name. Along with their approval, each master recommends an honor name, usually based on how the young one approached a challenge. A master may also choose to recommend an honor name based a previous accomplishment or a trait, but only when it is something extraordinary.

Once a name is chosen, it is recorded in the citadel archives and carved into the back of the Rhinotaur's horn. Throughout his life, a Rhinotaur may earn new honors which he can choose to use in place of his first honor name, but for official purposes, his first honor name is the only one that counts.

Here's the original version:
Rhinotaur

+2 Str, +2 Con
Medium, Monstrous humanoid
Speed 30
+4 Natural armor
Gore 1d8
Scent
Near sighted: - 2 to spot checks, +2 to listen checks
Resistance to fire 5
Powerful frame: Treat all armor as one class lighter (Heavy → Medium → Light → clothes) and gain +1 max dex bonus, -1 armor check penalty. +50% carrying capacity.
Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus languages: Draconic, sylvan, dwarven, elven, goblin.
Level Adjustment: +2


I came to the conclusion that a level adjustment of 2 was fair based on comparing it to a LA 1 race with the draconic template applied. The only thing that I'm unsure of is the powerful frame quality, as it is a bit more unique, but I think it also makes for a much more interesting character.

I also kicked around the idea of giving them a +2 bonus to intelligence, as a big strong animal that's smart would be a nice change of pace, but I thought it might be a bit too much.

Oh, and for the record, I'm well aware that his name doesn't actually make sense, but I figure that minotaurs in a world without minos make no sense to begin with, so why not just roll with it.

Obrysii
2011-01-10, 08:56 AM
Increase the Strength to +4 and instead of "power frame" just give them Powerful Build and you'd have a good LA +2.

Frog Dragon
2011-01-10, 09:17 AM
I'd drop the Powerful Frame, give them Powerful Build, drop the natural armor to +2 and drop their LA to +1. That would make them fairly decent, on par with Goliaths, which are good for some characters.

Keinnicht
2011-01-10, 01:43 PM
I'd drop the Powerful Frame, give them Powerful Build, drop the natural armor to +2 and drop their LA to +1. That would make them fairly decent, on par with Goliaths, which are good for some characters.

I don't see what the issue with powerful frame is. Powerful build doesn't do the same thing.

I agree with the person who said give them +4 strength. Maybe add in -2 to a mental attribute.

bloodtide
2011-01-10, 02:16 PM
Rhinotaur

+2 Str, +2 Con
Medium, Monstrous humanoid
Speed 30
+4 Natural armor
Gore 1d8
Scent
Near sighted: - 2 to spot checks, +2 to listen checks
Resistance to fire 5
Powerful frame: Treat all armor as one class lighter (Heavy → Medium → Light → clothes) and gain +1 max dex bonus, -1 armor check penalty. +50% carrying capacity.
Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus languages: Draconic, sylvan, dwarven, elven, goblin.
Level Adjustment: +2

They sure don't have the 'Rhino' feel to them.

Why scent? Do real life rhinos have scent? Do you really think that rhinos are as good of a tracker as a dog?

Resistance to fire? Why?

Natural armor is a bit much at +4. You might want to make it just +1 and then add more armor from paragon levels or feats.

Powerful frame? It's always odd with homebrewed features. Why not just stick with powerful build, and already made feature. They 'treat' armor is if it was one class less..odd. And can carry more..weird.

Why no powerful charge and gore? Why no mean temper? Why no low light vision?

Cieyrin
2011-01-10, 02:44 PM
I see nothing wrong with homebrewing new features, not everything powerfully built need be 'Powerfully Built.'

Anyways, there does seem a good deal of things here that seem thrown together that could use some stream-lining, which I'll base off of the Rhinoceros (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/rhinoceros.htm) entry.

I would probably up the Strength to +4 and throw on a -2 Wis, which shows their short-temperedness and lack of good control.

Dropping Scent and Fire Resistance would do good, as neither the picture nor the Rhino entry suggest either. The picture looks rather fleshy to be resistant to fire.

Speaking of fleshiness, I would also reduce the NA to +2.

For the senses, Near Sighted is fine, though, as the Rhino entry has Low-Light, I'd also throw that in for the Rhinotaur.

For Powerful Frame, I see the Armor weight class reduction and increased carrying capacity but I'm not sure where the +Max Dex -ACP comes in. Your armor isn't getting any more flexible because the weight doesn't bother you.

I'd add on a Powerful Charge ability, drop the LA to +1 and call it good.

Them's my 2 coppers. Take as you will.

AtlanteanTroll
2011-01-10, 05:33 PM
Why no powerful charge and gore? Why no mean temper? Why no low light vision?

Rhinos have notoriously bad vision for one...

Cieyrin
2011-01-10, 05:44 PM
Rhinos have notoriously bad vision for one...

The MM Rhino has low-light, though...

AtlanteanTroll
2011-01-10, 06:06 PM
The MM Rhino has low-light, though...
MM has it wrong. You can Google about a Rhino's eye-sight Im sure.

Cieyrin
2011-01-10, 06:25 PM
MM has it wrong. You can Google about a Rhino's eye-sight Im sure.

I'm not doubting you, just saying. It wouldn't exactly be the first time WotC didn't exactly research. It's also there by default as an Animal type creature as a Type ability.

Jarrick
2011-01-10, 06:31 PM
MM gives them low light vision because it goes along with the Animal type. Also, despite being thick, a rhino's skin is sensitive, so yeah, no fire resistance.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-10, 06:43 PM
I would never take this for +2 LA.

I'd reduce the Natural Armor to +2, give it bonus damage to it's gore attack while charging, and reduce the LA to +1.

I'm also not sure why it has Scent.

Jarrick
2011-01-10, 06:47 PM
Wikipedia says:


Rhinoceros have acute hearing and sense of smell, but poor eyesight.

Jota
2011-01-10, 07:11 PM
Wikipedia says:

Yay, wikipedia!

To go LA +0:

+2 to Strength or Constitution
No natural armor (or +1, maybe)
Leave Powerfully Built, Scent, Fire Resistance (last largely optional)
Bonus to Listen, perhaps, if you feel like it

Makeitstop
2011-01-11, 01:04 AM
Thanks for the input everybody.

Upon further reflection, I have come to the conclusion that powerful charge is necessary. I had originally taken it out early on, before I had accepted the need for a level adjustment, and I didn't think to put it back.

Also, I was indeed basing this off real world rhinos, without ever thinking to look at the existing creature entry. So, the lack of low light vision, the spot penalty, the listen bonus, and the scent features were all based on actual rhinos. The fire resistance was not well thought out, and was just based on the myth that rhinos put out fires, and thrown in on a whim.

Part of the reason I wanted to try this is because I wanted a strong beastial creature that didn't suffer dexterity or mental penalties. There's plenty of big dumb things and big slow things. I wanted something more intelligent and thoughtful, like Rhinox (or Beast from x-men) rather than Rocksteady or the Spiderman villain.

The same goes for powerful build, it's been done. I like it, but I want something different, hence the armor oriented quality. However, I'm thinking that dropping natural armor to +2 is probably reasonable.

I like scent because in addition to being accurate, and less common than darkvision and low light vision, it also evokes a more primal, savage quality, which helps preserve the animal flavor in the absence of a mental deficiency.

So, after careful consideration, here's my revised Rhinotaur:

+2 Str, +2 Con
Medium, Monstrous humanoid
Speed 30
+2 Natural armor
Gore 1d8
Powerful Charge: 2x damage
Scent
Near sighted: - 2 to spot checks, +2 to listen checks
Powerful frame: Treat all armor as one class lighter (Heavy → Medium → Light → Clothes) and gain +1 max dex bonus, -1 armor check penalty. +50% carrying capacity.
Languages: Common, Giant. Bonus languages: Draconic, sylvan, dwarven, elven, goblin.
Level Adjustment: +1

I'm still a bit reluctant to call it LA +1, but that might just be because I know my natural tendency is to go overboard and I play with a group that strongly discourages power playing. But if anyone has a problem with it, it wouldn't be that hard to negotiate a bit.

Frog Dragon
2011-01-11, 09:40 AM
2x damage on a charge? No, no, no, no. Multipliers are bad.

The minotaur one works like this

Powerful Charge (Ex)
A minotaur typically begins a battle by charging at an opponent, lowering its head to bring its mighty horns into play. In addition to the normal benefits and hazards of a charge, this allows the beast to make a single gore attack with a +9 attack bonus that deals 4d6+6 points of damage. Essentially, an extra 4d6+1,5 Str bonus.

Does this have a Gore attack? It sounds like it should. Therefore, with powerful charge, you could put a nerfed version of the minotaur charge. 1d6+str or something.

super dark33
2011-01-11, 09:50 AM
it should be large, not medium,like a minotaur

Makeitstop
2011-01-11, 09:56 AM
2x damage on a charge? No, no, no, no. Multipliers are bad.

The minotaur one works like this
Essentially, an extra 4d6+1,5 Str bonus.

Does this have a Gore attack? It sounds like it should. Therefore, with powerful charge, you could put a nerfed version of the minotaur charge. 1d6+str or something.
It does indeed have a gore attack, which is what the powerful charge would apply to.

I went with double damage because it is essentially what rhinos get. The only difference between that and bonus damage of 1d8 plus strength is that it would increase if the character increases in size or takes improved natural attack.

Frog Dragon
2011-01-11, 10:09 AM
The problem starts showing it's teeth when you have a rhinotaur ubercharger. Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc etc, and then you get another x2 here. There shouldn't be a multiplier.

Makeitstop
2011-01-11, 10:17 AM
The problem starts showing it's teeth when you have a rhinotaur ubercharger. Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, etc etc, and then you get another x2 here. There shouldn't be a multiplier.
Point taken.

MammonAzrael
2011-01-11, 02:19 PM
The Gore should be dealing 1d8 + Str damage.
I agree with Cieyrin that I don't get why Powerful Frame grants +1 to your max Dex and a -1 to armor check penalties.

Ultimately, this seems like a decent race with a variety of things it picks up. I could see playing this for flavor, but probably not for power reasons.

I do think it could make a great warrior monk (read: Cleric) though, especially if you gave it +2 Wisdom.

Cieyrin
2011-01-11, 03:31 PM
Looks certainly better, though I stand by the "Better Weight Handling != More Flexible Armor"

Also, I just remembered there is a Rhinotaur-like critter published, the Rhek! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004d) Quite a bit more powerful than what you're looking for, admittedly, but along the same lines.

Jarrick
2011-01-11, 03:44 PM
I think that anytime a creature has only a single natural attack, they get to add 1 1/2 their Str to damage.

Draz74
2011-01-11, 04:21 PM
"Better weight handling" -- the best way to represent this would be to just copy the Dwarven racial ability of not getting slowed down by medium/heavy armor. On a race that wasn't slow to begin with, it will feel like a whole new feature.

ajkkjjk52
2011-01-11, 05:20 PM
Powerful frame: Treat all armor as one class lighter (Heavy → Medium → Light → Clothes) and gain +1 max dex bonus, -1 armor check penalty. +50% carrying capacity.


I know this is the feature that everyone's been beating to death, but I want to take a whack at it as really quite powerful. This means barbarians in plate, rangers and rogues in breastplate (or mithril plate) and Monks with Mithril Breastplates. MONKS WITH MITHRIL BREASTPLATES (in addition to the natural armor).

There's a reason that the description for mithril (at least in Pathfinder, which is what I have handy) states
Most mithral armors are one category lighter
than normal for purposes of movement and other
limitations. Heavy armors are treated as medium, and
medium armors are treated as light, but light armors
are still treated as light.

I'd consider taking the dwarven ability (not slowed by armor) and adding +50% carrying capacity and also giving them a bonus to bull rush.

Temotei
2011-01-11, 08:15 PM
I know this is the feature that everyone's been beating to death, but I want to take a whack at it as really quite powerful. This means barbarians in plate, rangers and rogues in breastplate (or mithril plate) and Monks with Mithril Breastplates. MONKS WITH MITHRIL BREASTPLATES (in addition to the natural armor).

There's a reason that the description for mithril (at least in Pathfinder, which is what I have handy) states

I'd consider taking the dwarven ability (not slowed by armor) and adding +50% carrying capacity and also giving them a bonus to bull rush.

Actually, monks get the shaft on this deal, as most of their abilities only work when they're unarmored. You're still wearing armor, even if it's treated as clothing.

Jota
2011-01-11, 09:21 PM
Actually, monks get the shaft on this deal, as most of their abilities only work when they're unarmored. You're still wearing armor, even if it's treated as clothing.

Point still stands for swordsages though, and perhaps others (I think there's a paladin ACF for divine grace that does the same, might be without restriction though). Even saying that, for swordsages it is a +3 bonus to AC (mithral breastplate --> mithral fullplate), which is nice, but not specifically a reason to be a rhinotaur over, say, a strongheart halfling.

Makeitstop
2011-01-11, 10:31 PM
I agree with Cieyrin that I don't get why Powerful Frame grants +1 to your max Dex and a -1 to armor check penalties.
Because it's more than just how fast he can run or how much weight he can carry. He would also be better able to compensate for the weight when performing precise movements, and power through the resistance it provides when stretching, or dodging. It adds to the feeling that he isn't sweating a little steel.


Ultimately, this seems like a decent race with a variety of things it picks up. I could see playing this for flavor, but probably not for power reasons.
Excellent, that's right where I need to be.


I do think it could make a great warrior monk (read: Cleric) though, especially if you gave it +2 Wisdom.
I kind of wanted to give a mental stat boost, but I cut it because the guys I play with tend to look ability scores with a bit of extra scrutiny, and because there a three stats which support different classes, and I didn't want to commit.


Also, I just remembered there is a Rhinotaur-like critter published, the Rhek! (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20031004d) Quite a bit more powerful than what you're looking for, admittedly, but along the same lines.
Interesting. Thanks for the link.


I know this is the feature that everyone's been beating to death, but I want to take a whack at it as really quite powerful. This means barbarians in plate, rangers and rogues in breastplate (or mithril plate) and Monks with Mithril Breastplates. MONKS WITH MITHRIL BREASTPLATES (in addition to the natural armor).

There's a reason that the description for mithril (at least in Pathfinder, which is what I have handy) states
For rogues and anyone else that's just getting around proficiencies, it's really not that big of a deal. One feat, or one level in fighter will take care of that for you (the fighter level coming with a lot of other benefits as well) and given that this is a race with a level adjustment, you could just as easily play as a LA+0 race and take that fighter level.

For classes that get special benefits when wearing light armor, that might be a more legitimate concern. At the moment, I'm not certain if these are potentially unbalancing or not, but if they are, I wouldn't exactly have a problem with saying it doesn't stack with mithril. Let them wear an adamantine breastplate instead.

Now monks.... While if I were DM I would rule that a mithril breastplate couldn't be reduced to clothes because mithril stops at light armor, that isn't all that significant, as it's only 1 AC more than a chain shirt. That they can wear a chain shirt is just as much of an issue.
The way I see it, in this case it's a potent ability for a class that's generally considered to be a bit on the weak side.
On the other hand:

Actually, monks get the shaft on this deal, as most of their abilities only work when they're unarmored. You're still wearing armor, even if it's treated as clothing.
The wording for monks is rather strong, and this interpretation seems arguably valid to me.

Either way though, it's not the end of the world.

Makeitstop
2011-01-12, 03:20 PM
After consulting with others wiser than myself, I've made the following changes:
Mithril will not stack with powerful frame, and only leather and padded armor can be treated as clothing. This will maintain the flavor, give a decent but not overpowered boost to monks, and prevent abuse.

Overall, I'm happy with the way it's turning out. While I still consider it open for tweaking, I think I'm ready to start working on fluff.

Keinnicht
2011-01-12, 04:01 PM
After consulting with others wiser than myself, I've made the following changes:
Mithril will not stack with powerful frame, and only leather and padded armor can be treated as clothing. This will maintain the flavor, give a decent but not overpowered boost to monks, and prevent abuse.

Overall, I'm happy with the way it's turning out. While I still consider it open for tweaking, I think I'm ready start working on fluff.

It doesn't really make sense for mithril to not stack with powerful frame.

"I'm strong so this armor affects me less."
"This armor weighs less, but it does not affect me less."

I understand the balance concerns, but it's just doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. And it's good for things to make sense for reasons other than balance.

Makeitstop
2011-01-12, 04:45 PM
It doesn't really make sense for mithril to not stack with powerful frame.

"I'm strong so this armor affects me less."
"This armor weighs less, but it does not affect me less."

I understand the balance concerns, but it's just doesn't make sense from a logical perspective. And it's good for things to make sense for reasons other than balance.
My justification on this is that it's not just about weight, but also flexibility (chainmail is medium, but weighs more than banded mail). That even weightless, "anti-gravity" plate would be functionally different than leather or chain. Also, there's the law of diminishing returns.

And if that doesn't work for you, just remember that you can move silently wearing a mithril chain shirt, but make a lot of noise wearing hide, and that you can be just as hurt by a whip when wearing a full suit of armor as when naked.

Jota
2011-01-14, 07:23 AM
Like I said earlier, I don't think the two stacking is even an issue, but you're entitled to your opinion and many might agree with it. Consider, however, that you'd have to be level 9 before mithral fullplate is less than one-third of your total allotted wealth (assuming said rules are in play) at which point a three point difference in AC (as I noted earlier) isn't that significant.

Furthermore, the cost of upgrading to mithral is 6500. The cost of getting +3 magic armor is 9000. Not really that huge of a difference. Yes, the ultimate maximum is higher, but at that point AC is generally outpaced by monster attack rolls (for those monsters still using them) anyway, so while every point matters, you're most likely still quite hittable, and you might be better off investing in a cloak of resistance +3 for the same cost (9000) given how many monster tactics start changing at those and future levels. And again, the opportunity cost of that +3 to AC (starting at level 10 or so, which many campaigns never reach) could be a human or strongheart halfling bonus feat, or the awesomeness that comes with being dwarven, which you get at every level. Just think about that when you make your final decision.

stainboy
2011-01-14, 12:42 PM
I agree that the damage multiplier on a charge would have been too strong, but you still might want to pump it up a bit. You want charging with the gore attack to be worth it over just charging with a greatsword. Give the horn a flat damage bonus on a charge, maybe?

Makeitstop
2011-01-17, 02:29 PM
Like I said earlier, I don't think the two stacking is even an issue, but you're entitled to your opinion and many might agree with it. Consider, however, that you'd have to be level 9 before mithral fullplate is less than one-third of your total allotted wealth (assuming said rules are in play) at which point a three point difference in AC (as I noted earlier) isn't that significant.

Furthermore, the cost of upgrading to mithral is 6500. The cost of getting +3 magic armor is 9000. Not really that huge of a difference. Yes, the ultimate maximum is higher, but at that point AC is generally outpaced by monster attack rolls (for those monsters still using them) anyway, so while every point matters, you're most likely still quite hittable, and you might be better off investing in a cloak of resistance +3 for the same cost (9000) given how many monster tactics start changing at those and future levels. And again, the opportunity cost of that +3 to AC (starting at level 10 or so, which many campaigns never reach) could be a human or strongheart halfling bonus feat, or the awesomeness that comes with being dwarven, which you get at every level. Just think about that when you make your final decision.
Well, you make a better argument than my consultant. I'm bringing back mithril stacking.


I agree that the damage multiplier on a charge would have been too strong, but you still might want to pump it up a bit. You want charging with the gore attack to be worth it over just charging with a greatsword. Give the horn a flat damage bonus on a charge, maybe?
Well, technically it is still worth it to charge with gore rather than a greatsword as powerful charge only applies to the gore attack, and with the bonus damage of 1d8 + str, the total damage becomes 2d8 + 2 1/2 str as opposed to 2d6 +1 1/2str. Not to mention that not every class has access to greatswords.

However, i am inclined to agree that it could stand to be a bit better. The tricky part is making it potentially useful at higher levels without overpowering it at lower levels, so just adding extra damage is not an ideal solution.

Instead, I've reworded it to be more like my original intent, tying the damage to the base damage of the gore attack. That way it increases with improved natural attack and size changes, but doesn't increase damage from other effects like power attack. So the option to focus on it is available, but it is just an option.

Makeitstop
2011-01-17, 03:34 PM
Added fluff. Lots and lots of fluff.