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Skjaldbakka
2011-01-10, 10:58 AM
I'm looking to be the 'rogue' in an all dragon game. Problem is, there aren't any rogue-y classes that don't suck compared to dragon HD, becauase dragon HD are pretty awesome. The only real benefit is sneak attack, which since we are starting at ECL 18, is kind of less than useful, given the ease of being immune to that.

So I'm looking for either a way to negate various immunities to sneak attack (I've got gravestrike and golem strike covered for contsructs and undead from my dragon spellcasting, but no way to sneak attack elementals or plants... or other things I'm missing, or to deal with fortification enchantments on armor (the big one).

Alternatly, I could give up on sneak attack and take dragon HD, but I'd need a way to get trapfinding and Move Silently as a class skill. I'm a copper dragon (fits flavorwise, there are dragons with Hide and Move S., but they don't fit as well), so I get Hide as a class skill, and Spot/Search/Listen/UMD are always dragon skills, so that is all I'm missing to be rogue skillmonkey from just dragon Hd.

Telonius
2011-01-10, 11:14 AM
(EDIT: Nm, was looking at Hide instead of Move Silently)...

A single level of Rogue gives you trapfinding. So does a single level of Beguiler or Artificer or Ninja or a couple others I'm sure I've forgotten about. Just take one level of whatever gives you the nicest stuff, and you're fine. Trapfinding is trapfinding. Once you have it, you have it forever. Are you looking for Disable Device or Open Lock instead?

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 11:15 AM
Factotum? At least 3 levels so you can bring your godly draconic int to bear on most aspects of combat.

Duke of URL
2011-01-10, 11:29 AM
For Trapfinding, the Lists of Stuff (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19871954/Lists_of_Stuff) says:


Trapfinding
Barbarian 3, class variant, Dungeonscape, replaces Trap Sense, see text
Rogue 1
Ranger 1, class variant, Dungeonscape, replaces Track
Beguiler 1, Player's Handbook 2
Ninja 1, Complete Adventurer
Scout 1, Complete Adventurer
Spellthief 1, Complete Adventurer
Nightsong Infiltrator 1, ecl 8, Complete Adventurer
Geometer 3, ecl 9, Complete Arcane, Traps based on writing only
Temple Raider of Olidammara 1, ecl 6, Complete Divine
Stoneblessed(Dwarf) 3, ecl 5, Races of Stone, stone traps only
Stonedeath Assassin 1, ecl 6, Races of Stone
Artificer 1, Eberron Campaign Setting, disable traps
Silverkey 1, ecl 4, Eberron: Dragonmarked, called "wardsense", works at range, see text
Factotum 1, Dungeonscape
Disciple of Dispater 2, ecl 8, Book of Vile Darkness, metal only
Kobold domain, Races of the Dragon, web enhancement
Theft Gloves, soulmeld, Magic of Incarnum
Hoardstealer 1, ecl 6, Draconomicon

special mention
Planar Touchstone (Catalogues of Enlightenment), feat, Planar Handbook, gain the ability of a chosen doman (pick Kobold, see above)
Trap Sensitivity, feat, Dungeonscape, do not have to search for traps actively, see text

Curmudgeon
2011-01-10, 11:49 AM
So I'm looking for either a way to negate various immunities to sneak attack (I've got gravestrike and golem strike covered for contsructs and undead from my dragon spellcasting, but no way to sneak attack elementals or plants... or other things I'm missing, or to deal with fortification enchantments on armor (the big one).
Rogues have (at least partial) workarounds for these things. The Lightbringer Rogue Penetrating Strike ACF (Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, page 208) lets you deal sneak attack damage to those normally immune when you flank them. You do the normal sneak attack dice, but no reduction in other sneak attack damage (from the Craven feat, or when attacking with a maximized weaponlike spell, for instance). (There's a non-Lightbringer Penetrating Strike ACF in Dungeonscape on page 13, but that one isn't so clear that you're still dealing sneak attack damage, just reduced.)

So 100% Fortification normally makes enemies immune to sneak attack, but they can still be flanked; Lightbringer Penetrating Strike + Craven does nearly 70% of full sneak attack damage against this immunity.

Creatures that can't be flanked (elementals, oozes, and swarms) are tougher; you can't get them with normal sneak attack damage. The Crippling Strike Rogue special ability adds 2 points of STR damage to every sneak attack. With the Savvy Rogue feat (Complete Scoundrel) you still do the Crippling Strike STR damage even against foes normally immune. So get a wand with a weaponlike spell, and make touch attacks against a swarm; you'll knock the swarm's STR (normally fairly low) down with every hit. Kind of a roundabout way to sneak attack something to death, but a Rogue can do it.

If you're contemplating being a non-dragon Rogue vs. dragons, I highly recommend another ACF: Uncanny Bravery (Dragon Magic, page 14). You'll get immunity to dragon Frightful Presence, and a boost to saves against other types of fear (double the penalty you accept with Craven :smallsmile:).

Keld Denar
2011-01-10, 12:17 PM
Also, Death Strike Bracers from the MIC allow you to SA many things that are normally immune 3/day at the cost of your swift action. Thats about as good an action economy as a Wand of Grave/Golem/Vinestrike. They don't have an attunement period, so in theory you could buy multiple pairs and swap them out between combat, or simply beg/bribe/sleepwith your DM to allow you to combine several pairs into a single item with more charges.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-10, 12:19 PM
Is this a gestalt game or something? because I believe that if you're using a level progression for a monster you can't take levels in anything else until you've finished it. And all the Dragon progressions I've seen go up to level 20.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-01-10, 12:48 PM
Darkstalker (LoM) somewhat fixes the issue about flanking, it let's you flank creatures with the all around vision special quality.

Skjaldbakka
2011-01-10, 02:32 PM
We are being allowed to tale class levels after reaching young adult HD.

mootoall
2011-01-10, 02:36 PM
Truedeath Crystal from the MiC does something like this, unless my brain's on the fritz again.

Another_Poet
2011-01-10, 03:21 PM
I would suggest Spellthief because you can drop Sneak Attack to steal spells, SLAs, etc instead. Plants might not take sneak damage but a CR18 plant monster should have some nice abilities to steal right? Party on.