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View Full Version : [re-post, because bumbing is bad.] The Priest(WIP). Help make it tier 1 yet ballanced



Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-11, 09:39 PM
I posted this class up a while back. While the cloistered cleric certainly covers the "non-martial" cleric nich it dose not seem to really capture the typical "cloth wearing priest" archtype that is ever present in many different stories and media. Thus, I set out to create a class that could model the "cloth-wearing priest" who uses the sermon and psalm to covert enemies to the faith rather then the mace and a strong arm which are preferred by most clerics.

However, I also did not want it to be "the cloistered cleric with a different name" and thus while it's similar to a cloistered cleric in some regards I, with input from others here on the playground, decided to make this class one that aims to be much more versatile then a cleric or even a cloistered cleric yet at the same time is not a wizard or archivist. The priest thus is a sort of middle ground between the cloistered cleric and archivist. He's just as squshy as an archivist is but makes himself different by trading the archivist's ability to snatch from other lists for more traditional divine powers such as Turn/Rebuke, domain acsses and getting the whole cleric list much like a cloistered cleric or cleric. However, unlike the cleric/cloistered cleric he gets greater versatility in return for being weaker in other regards, being able to trade prepared spells for domain spells on the fly and getting 5 domains to chose from over the course of 20 levels.

I fully intend this class to be a powerful tier 1 and ideally it's balance level should be around that of a cleric, cloistered cleric or druid. However, as of now, I am not sure if it's at that level and hence I have re-posted it here to get help putting it on the same level as a cleric/cloistered cleric, druid or at least a level that would make the class an acceptable addition to any games with other Tier 1 classes present in the eyes of most DMs.'

Also, whole fluff is nice, this is not the final entry and while the original post of this class included fluff for time's sake this one will not since this thread is created merely to work out crunch. When the crunchy is where I want it I will make a final post/entry for this class. Thus, the same is applied to grammar. I know my grammar in this may be painful in some areas but I already know that so it need not be pointed out. Grammar issues can be fixed once the crunch of the class is where I want it to be.

So, here is the bare bones/no fluff version of the class as it stands:

__________________________________________________ _______________

Class Features

Alignment: While a Priest can be of any alignment, if a Priest worships a deity his alignment must within one step of his deity's alignment, just the same as a cleric.

Hit Die: d4

Starting Gold: As Wizard

Class Skills: Bluff(Cha), Concentration(Con), Craft(Int), Diplomacy(Cha), Heal(Wis), Knowledge(All Skills taken individually)(Int) Profession(Wis), Spellcraft(Int)

Skill Points at first level: (6+ Int Modifier) x4
Skill Points at each additional level: 6+ Int Modifier

Proficiencies: Priests are proficient with the club, dagger, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, and quarterstaff, but not with any type of armor or shield.

The Priest
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th| 9th

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Aura, Spontaneous Domain Casting, Turn/Rebuke Undead, Domains, Lore, Divine Magician|3|1

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3||4|2|-

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3||4|2|1|-

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4||5|3|2|-|-

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Domain|5|3|2|1|-|-

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||5|3|3|2|-|-|-

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5||6|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6||6|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-|-

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6||6|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-|-

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Zone of Consecration/Desecration|6|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-|-

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7||6|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-|-

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||6|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-|-

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8||6|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-|-

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9||6|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-|-

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Bonus Domain|6|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1|-

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||6|5|5|5|4|4|3|3|2|-

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10||6|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|2|1

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||6|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|3|2

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11||6|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|3|3

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Turn/Rebuke Outsiders|6|5|5|5|5|5|4|4|4|4[/table]

Spellcasting: A Priest casts divine spells drawn from the Cleric spell list. Like a cleric, a priest dose not need to learn spells or keep them in a spellbook. He automatically has access to all spells on the cleric spell list of all spell levels which can cast and when he gains the ability to cast a new level of spells he automatically gains access to all the spells on the cleric spell list of that level. Unlike a Cleric, a priest dose not gain domain spell-slots. Rather, he casts his domain spells in a different manner described later.

Also, while a cleric uses wisdom as his casting stat a priest instead uses charisma. Thus, to cast a spell a Priest must have a charisma score of at least 10+ the spell's level. In addition, the DCs for a Priest's spells are equal to 10+ the spell's level + his Cha modifier. A priest receives bonus spells for a high charisma as a wizard dose for a high intelligence. A Priest prepares and re-gains his spells in the same manner as a cleric. However, unlike most divine casters who can freely cast in any kind of armor, a priest's brand of divine magic is such that his spells suffer from spell failure when he dawns any kind of armor in the exact same manner arcane spells do.

Unlike a cleric, who uses a holy symbol for many of their spells, a priest, in place of a holy symbol, uses a special staff as a holy symbol for all spells which would require one. These staffs are non-magical and have both the same stats and price as a standard, mundane quarterstaff. In addition, the staff is topped with a gem, skull or other kind of "cap" that has his deity's holy symbol imprinted somewhere upon it with glowing, divine energy. This is merely cosmetic and has no in-game effects. As for the rest of the staff, there is no difference between it and a standard, mundane staff In addition, if a priest ever acquires a magic staff that he can use that staff can be used in place of this mundane staff so long as he somehow affixes the "cap" with his deity's holy symbol to the top of the staff.(No craft check is needed to do this since this is more a flavor-based ability.) A priest who worships no deity uses the same exact rules for this staff as one who dose, the only difference being a cosmetic one: the staff "cap" of a godless priest has no holy symbol inscribed uppon it.

Aura: A Priest radiates an aura of his alignment in the exact same manner as a cleric of his class level dose.

Spontaneous Domain Casting: While a priest gains domains he dose not gain domain spell slots as normal. Rather, as appose to preparing his domain spells in spell slots like a cleric he instead can chose to "lose" a prepared spell to spontaneously cast a spell from any of his domains that has a level less then or equal to that of the lost spell. He can also spontaneously cast a domain spell under the effect of a metamagic feat but to do so the prepared spell he chose to lose to cast said domain spell must be of a level equal to or more then the level that domain spell would be if prepared with the metamagic feat the priest wishes to apply to it. The priest can only cast a domain spell under a metamagic feat if he actually possesses the metamagic feat that he wants to apply to said spell.(So priest could not spontainously cast a chill of the grave spell as if it where prepared with the fell animate feat if he dose not actually possess the fell animate feat himself.)

This ability can be used to cast spells from any domain you have, including the bonus domains this class grants you as well as bonus domains you may receive from other methods.(Such as taking levels in a PrC that grants a bonus domain(s) such as the contemplative PrC or taking a PrC that grants a "prestige" domain like the Dracolyte.)

Turn/Rebuke Undead A Priest gains the ability to turn or rebuke undead as a cleric of the same class level as him, depending on his alignment. A good Priest turns undead while an evil one rebukes undead. A neutral priest chose whether or not he turns or rebukes undead at 1st level and once the choice is made he can never change it. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to 1+ the Priest's Cha modifier. This ability is treated in the same manner as a Cleric's Turn/Rebuke power and thus any PrC class which advances a cleric's turn/rebuke undead ability also advances a priest's.

Domains: At 1st level a Priest chose two cleric domains his deity can provide him and gains access to both the granted power and spells of those domains. If he has no deity he may chose domains which are in line with his cause or ideal and gain access to their granted powers and spells.

Lore: A Priest, due to his long time spent in study has vast knowledge. This ability is identical to the bard's bardic knowledge class feature, using the priestís class level in place of bard levels.

Bonus Domains: At level 4 and 16 Priest gains access to an additional domain, obtaining both the granted power of that domain and gaining access to it's spells. If he worships a deity it must be a domain which that deity grants. If his deity has less then 4 domains once you run out of domains your deity offers he may chose a domain that is thematically associated with his deity despite not being a domain normally available to his/her followers.

Divine Magician: At 1st level and every level at which a Priest obtains access a new spell level a priest may chose one spell from the wizard/sorc list of that level. The Priest adds that spell to his cleric spell list. The spell chosen cannot be appose to the priest's alignment.(So a good aligned priest could not chose any [evil] spell and vice-versa.) Any PrC which advances "spells known" dose not advance this ability.(So a Priest 10/contemplative 10 would only have gained a divine magician spell of levels 1-5.)

Zone of Consecration/Desecration At level 10th the Priest is so powerful that he becomes a source of positive(or negative) energy. At level 12 and every level after, the Priest radiates a zone of positive or negative energy that is centered on him. This zone is treated as if if it where under the effects of a consecrate or desecrate spell and has the same area of effect of the spell consecrate(or desecrate if this ability mimics that spell.) Whether this zone acts as desecrate or consecrate is dependent on the priest's alignment.

A good aligned priest will always treat this zone as if it where under the effects of a consecrate spell while an evil aligned priest treats this zone as if it where under the effects of the spell desecrate. Neutral priests use their ability to turn/rebuke instead of their alignment to determine what spell this zone is treated as being under. A neutral priest who turns undead treats it as under the effects of a consecrate spell while a neutral priest who rebukes undead treats the zone as if it where effected by the desecrate spell.

This zone is always present but is not visible to the naked eye. Only spells which can detect evil, negative energy and magical effects, as well as items that mimic these spells can allow a person to see this zone. The priest, however, can see this zone without the aid of such spells since he himself is the source of it. He dose not see it at all times, however, but rather he when he wants to see it and can "turn on" and "turn off" his ability to see said zone whenever he wants as a free action at will.

Turn/Rebuke Outsiders: At level 20 a Priest is an avatar of his deity's power and thus gains the power to turn(or rebuke) outsiders. At level 20, a good priest can use his turn undead ability to instead turn evil outsiders and an evil priest can use his rebuke attempts to rebuke evil outsiders. However, a priest dose not lose his ability to Turn/Rebuke undead. A neutral priest turns evil outsiders if he turns undead and rebukes evil outsiders if he rebukes undead. Unlike the planar turning feat this ability only effects evil outsiders. Good or neutral outsiders cannot be rebuked using this power. This power is not a separate form of turning/rebuking but rather an alternate use of the turn/rebuke power a priest obtains at 1st level. Thus, using this ability costs a turn/rebuke attempt from the same uses/day of his turn/rebuke undead power.
__________________________________________________ _______________

So, dose anybody have any ideas on how to get this to what I want it to be?

Ralasha
2011-01-13, 09:30 PM
First, it doesn't need that much gold, since it isn't proficient with heavy armors or the like. Second Sense Motive would also be a good skill.

Better name for the class would be something like: Divine Magician, or White Mage.
Please See Legendary Cleric. It actually has some very balanced abilities that should help flesh this class out somewhat. Other Skills: Spot, Listen, Survival.

It is a good start. But not tier 1.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 10:52 PM
It is a good start. But not tier 1.

What makes you think this isn't Tier 1? It casts from the same spell list as the Cleric, it has free spontaneous domain casting, it gets bonus domains, and finally it gets to add spells cherry picked from the Wizard spell list to its spell list. Clerics are Tier 1 because of their casting, not because they have 3/4 BAB and proficiency with armor.

Ralasha
2011-01-13, 10:56 PM
Actually, you will find that their ability to function as both a support caster and a front line fighter is what makes them Tier 1. At higher levels a Cleric is a better fighter than a fighter for the following reasons: Destruction Domain Ability: Smite anything. Extra Smite works for this, its a bend in the rules as intended, but perfectly allowed by RAW from my understanding. Next, the ability to buff themselves, take earth Domain and you get Stoneskin. good job. You can wear the same armor as a Fighter already, buff your own strength, heal yourself if you get injured, have as high an AC as a standard fighter, have a higher attack bonus thanks to buffs, have more HP thanks to buffs, have SR thanks to buffs, have DR thanks to buffs, have fast healing thanks to buffs, a -higher- AC thanks to buffs, oh, did I mention that a cleric makes a better fighter than a fighter and can cast spells?

Example: Divine Strength Feat. Spend 1 turn undead, gain 4 strength. Earth domain, gain stoneskin. Bull's Strength: +4 strength. Bear's Endurance: +4 Con. Eagles Splendor: Extra-good smite domain ability. destruction Domain: Smite anything. Prayer, Aid, Bless, Divine favor, Shield of Faith +AC, Align Weapon, Spiritual Weapon: flank buddy, Divine Power: +6 Strength +HP, Righteous Might: More combat goodies. Bing: 5th level spells: Strength now = +14 strength, +6 Con, +tons of HP, huge attack bonuses, can heal self, huge AC, spell Resistance, enemies have attack penalties, +extra damage aside from strength bonuses. Oh, and you now have melee reach. Any questions? Oops, I forgot, you also have damage reduction. and can have resistance to all elements if you want.

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 11:07 PM
Actually, you will find that their ability to function as both a support caster and a front line fighter is what makes them Tier 1. At higher levels a Cleric is a better fighter than a fighter for the following reasons: Destruction Domain Ability: Smite anything. Extra Smite works for this, its a bend in the rules as intended, but perfectly allowed by RAW from my understanding. Next, the ability to buff themselves, take earth Domain and you get Stoneskin. good job. You can wear the same armor as a Fighter already, buff your own strength, heal yourself if you get injured, have as high an AC as a standard fighter, have a higher attack bonus thanks to buffs, have more HP thanks to buffs, have SR thanks to buffs, have DR thanks to buffs, have fast healing thanks to buffs, a -higher- AC thanks to buffs, oh, did I mention that a cleric makes a better fighter than a fighter and can cast spells?

Okaaaay... that's not exactly news to anybody. This Priest is still a much better Fighter than the Fighter. The extra +2 hit points per level and ability to cast in armor isn't really what makes the Cleric a good frontliner. It's retarded stuff like Divine Power + Righteous Might. Divine Metamagic Persistent spell. And that's stuff that the Priest can do as well, if not better than the Cleric (due to expanded domain access and spontaneous domain casting).

EDIT: The example you gave can be done just as easily if not more easily and more efficiently by the Priest. :smallannoyed:

The extra domains + spontaneous domain casting + Wizard spells add a whole lot of power and versatility to this class easily allowing it to play ball with the rest of the big boys in Tier 1.

Ralasha
2011-01-13, 11:08 PM
Being difficult to hit, and having high Hit Dice is also necessary, otherwise you're just going from wizard HP to bard or monk equivalent at your level. that is, if you're a frontline fighter. But hey, since its... so easy, tell you what. You make one of those... and I'll make a gimick fighter, Bard, Cleric, Wizard, sorcerer, or Barbarian. Shall we see who wins at level 10?

Ziegander
2011-01-13, 11:09 PM
Being difficult to hit, and having high Hit Dice is also necessary, otherwise you're just going from wizard HP to bard or monk equivalent at your level.

Not really when you've got Mirror Image up...

Ralasha
2011-01-13, 11:11 PM
Want to test that theory? I'll make a Fighter, shall we see who wins at 10th level?

Akal Saris
2011-01-15, 02:05 AM
Rather than giving priests ASF in armor, I'd go with religious vows that prevent them from wearing armor, like the Healer class has with anything heavier than light armor. ASF is easy enough to work around, and it doesn't make sense for a divine caster anyhow.

Otherwise, I'd move the 3rd bonus domain to 8th level, so it gives priests a reason to stay in the class past 6th or so. It's also a little strange that the class is less adept at fighting in melee, but also has fewer spells than the cleric since it lacks domain slots.

Ralasha
2011-01-15, 02:22 AM
I suppose it's balanced, but it's more closely balanced with the bard than the cleric.

Zeta Kai
2011-01-15, 02:28 AM
Tier 1, yet balanced... hmmm... does anyone else have a problem with that premise?

Ziegander
2011-01-15, 08:29 AM
I suppose it's balanced, but it's more closely balanced with the bard than the cleric.

Facepalm. No. If anything, I'll grant you that it's more closely balanced with the Sorcerer, but not the Bard. If this class isn't Tier 1, and I'm not at all sure it's not, then it's definitely Tier 2.

Prime32
2011-01-15, 12:31 PM
I fully intend this class to be a powerful tier 1 and ideally it's balance level should be around that of a cleric, cloistered cleric or druid. However, as of now, I am not sure if it's at that level and hence I have re-posted it here to get help putting it on the same level as a cleric/cloistered cleric, druid or at least a level that would make the class an acceptable addition to any games with other Tier 1 classes present in the eyes of most DMs.'Tier 1s are defined by their number of powerful options. This class has all the options of a wizard and a cleric put together, plus some potent extras. So yeah...

Casting from one domain spontaneously is much more powerful than spontaneous cures, and this guy gets four times that. Any necromancer will love the ability to create all his undead inside a desecrated area for free. And the ability to apply Divine Metamagic to wizard spells is crazy good; you can stop time permanently if you want.

When you're comparing this to other classes, you should be comparing it to a wizard. Now note that every class feature in the table is an addition to what the wizard gets, and it also has more spells per day.
EDIT: A wizard's biggest weakness is not having the right spells prepared. He must cast the spell he chose for a slot at the start of the day. This class can use each 9th-level slot to cast one of 37 different spells regardless of what he prepared. That's more than the entire spell list of some classes. If he has well-chosen domains he can do anything.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-15, 03:24 PM
Yeah, which is why I was worried it was TOO powerful, not underpowered. However, if all of all of you think that it is too weak I could easily bump up the spells per-day to be equal to that of a cleric with domain slots but not actually give them domain slots. As for moving the 1st bonus domain down to 8th may be a good idea but I desire other opinions first.

Also, I like the idea of religious vows appose to psudo-ASF as a way to keep the class in robes.

Prime32
2011-01-15, 06:43 PM
What if you made it a spontaneous caster with a list consisting entirely of 3-4 domains? Not counting cantrips, that's still more spells than the sorcerer.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-15, 06:46 PM
I am aiming for tier 1. That's not a tier 1 class right there. It's a tier 2 at best, and most of the time will be a tier 3. Otherwise a good idea, but it's not the tier I intended for this class so it dose not work.

Prime32
2011-01-15, 06:49 PM
I am aiming for tier 1. That's not a tier 1 class right there. It's a tier 2 at best, and most of the time will be a tier 3. Otherwise a good idea, but it's not the tier I intended for this class so it dose not work.Alright, what if you added in the ability to attract followers similar to Leadership? Or better, similar to a thrallherd.

Another highly potent and distinctive feature would be the ability to declare some targets immune to the effects of Priest spells you cast, with the ability to change which targets every round. So you could, for instance, call down a storm of vengeance which your party are unhindered by. The potential for battlefield control is enormous.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-15, 07:59 PM
You mean on the current class or on the tier 3 "domain sorc" version that you suggested? If the latter, it's still not tier 1.Even with thrallheard-style leadership the painfully limited spell list makes it a tier 2-3(depending on domain choice.). Remember that tier 1 is not stronger then tier 2 due to power but versatility. On a sheer power vs. power scale tier 2 classes are actually even with tier 1 classes for the most part. Tier 1 classes are at tier 1 because they have both raw power AND versatility while tier 2s have the e power but lack the versatility. The difference between tier 1s and tier 2s is that tier 2s have just a small number of ways to break the game while tier 1s can break the game a different way every day.

Thus, even with thrallheard leadership the class would have a painfully limited spell list and thus still be a tier 2 at best, and if you want to get technical it would actually be a tier 3 still due to the very limited spell list. I mean, yeah, with a wizard thrall you can do a lot of things, but it's not you doing it. Your still a tier 2-tier 3, it just so happens you have a tier 1 who likes you enough to do stuff for you that you can't because your a tier 2-3. If I wanted that I would just play a cha-based tier 2-tier 3 with leadership since they actually get minions AND other class abilities instead of minions being their class abilities.

nyarlathotep
2011-01-16, 05:38 PM
I would say this class is already tier 1. It is better than cleric in almost ever way. The only penalties it has are lowwer BAB and spell failure chance from armor, these are both sacrifices that are relatively small inconveniences due to getting the divine magician ability. In the end the class maybe a bit overpowered, but I assume that you as a DM could make balance changes on the fly during gameplay if it gets out of hand.

@Ralasha I would be up for that duel as it is one that you simply can't win with a fighter at 10th level and a tier 1 caster at 10th. The only could see the fighter winning is if there is no prep time, the fighter wins initiative, and is an uber charger.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-16, 05:54 PM
I see, perhaps cut back on the amount of domains it gets, then? Would say, having it get only 1 domain at 1st level instead of 2? Or should I keep the domains but get rid of the "Divine Magician" spells and replace it with something similar to the channeling that pathfinder clerics get? No matter what, I want this to be tier one which means it's not "balanced" but I want it to be something that most DMs who allow clerics, wizards, druids ect...would allow in their game as well. Simply put I seek to balance it, but I want to balance it against other tier 1 classes rather then all classes in the game so it's something that, while being tier 1, would not be auto-denied by most DMs who allow tier 1 classes. That's my goal with this class.

Also, while I know giving it wizard style spell learning would help I want to avoid that if at all possible since that would make this class too much like the archivist for my tastes.

Also, while I am not sure how much of a balancing factor it would be, the idea of replacing the psudo-arcane spell failure with a religious restriction on armor gave me the idea of perhaps giving the class a sort of "code of conduct" that they have to follow or lose all their powers(until getting an atonement) would help balance it a bit against the other tier 1s? I am not sure, but I do know that code of conducts are not that big a drawback but flavor-wise it would fit since I see can faiths demanding more piety from church leader-types then they would their normal clerics....

Also, as for the fight, If any of you do it I would love to know the builds you made for this class since seeing what the class is like at high OP is something I would be interested in.(Is assuming high op for this fight since a fighter without high OP is rather stinky.)

Ziegander
2011-01-16, 09:33 PM
@Ralasha I would be up for that duel as it is one that you simply can't win with a fighter at 10th level and a tier 1 caster at 10th. The only could see the fighter winning is if there is no prep time, the fighter wins initiative, and is an uber charger.

And even then, with DMM Persisted Greater Mirror Image or Displacement, what do you do? Oh, and Celerity.

Prime32
2011-01-17, 04:31 AM
I see can faiths demanding more piety from church leader-types then they would their normal clerics....You know... there's nothing in this class which actually makes it a "church leader-type". I'd expect marshal/draconic auras or something, maybe the ability to make Diplomacy checks faster or take 10 on them. Maybe the ability to grant allies additional saving throws.

That's why I suggested that he get followers, and the ability to make his allies immune to his spells.


EDIT: On that "religious vows against armour", what about "religious vows against weapons"? You can only use simple weapons unless you have the War domain, in which case you can also use your deity's favoured weapon.

Ralasha
2011-01-17, 06:46 AM
In which case you should also be proficient with it.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-17, 11:39 AM
The simple weapons idea works well for the religious restrictions thing. As for the idea of auras, I actually fully intended on giving the class access to martial auras but at a slower pace then a martial...I also toyed with giving it leadership as a bonus feat but thought that that auras(even at a slowed progression)+ leadership + the whole cleric list was, well, a bit too powerful...but if you all feel that such things would not make the class too powerful then I may add them again.

Also, if I where to get rid of divine magician spells, the zone of desecrate/concecrate, outsider turning and lore power and replace it with thrallheard-esc leadership and a slow aura progression would the class not be as overpowered as I think it is? Or should I also, in addition to those things, get rid of spontaneous domain casting, give it domain slots? Likewise, for evil priests I think the option of undead leadership(though normal leadership would be an option for them as well) instead of normal leadership works thematically for a necro-priest...

Prime32
2011-01-17, 12:13 PM
As for the idea of auras, I actually fully intended on giving the class access to martial auras but at a slower pace then a martial...http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20030906b
Marshals can't really do much. Most people use it only for a 1-level dip. Your minor auras are the same strength at 1st-level as 20th level, you can still only use one at a time, and only a few will be useful to your party anyway. The major auras scale too slow to hold the class together on their own. Grant move action is okay (assuming allies can use a move action better than you can use a standard) but limited. Just look at all the dead levels...

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-17, 12:50 PM
I see. Also, I had contemplated giving the class a way to turn buff(and debuff spells..as well as consecrate and desecrate since they respectively act as a buff(or debuff for consecrate) for undead.) spells into auras in a Euradie spell to power type of thing(but in this case it would be "buff(and debuff) spells to auras.") though I am not sure what kind of limits to put on that...and also what of the thrallheard-esc leadership paired with this class? If I made the cuts I stated above to make room for this and the auras, and perhaps the buff/debuff spells to aura power would it be more at the balance level I want?

Actually, now that I think of it, with a bit of refluffing I may not need to give the class leader-esc powers and instead fluff it as a sort of "divine mage" who has the ability to tap into the source of divine magic without going through the gods and thus emulate the powers of a clerics without actually devoting one's self to service in a particular faith.

That DOSE mean they can still worship deities but most gods won't like the fact their "cutting out the middleman" and thus they would be more likely to serve gods who where either chaotic or evil since most evil gods(sans some of the really lawful ones) don't care a thing about honor and thus would be fine with having a powerful servant that "cuts out the middleman" so long as they where of use to their plans. Chaotic deities on the other hand may see their abilities as "sticking it to the man/upsetting the status quo" due to how it upsets the natural order of "divine magic comes from the gods" and thus view them in a favorable light due to that. Mechanically this means that they don't need to worship deities to get their powers freedom of domain selection, which is important to the class.

As for what the name of the class would be something generic like "Divine Magus"(Yeah, I know that sounds like a PrC name more then a base class one but I am meh with naming.)

Ralasha
2011-01-17, 01:17 PM
The only problem is that D&D physics says: Divine Magic comes directly from gods.

This means that they are not middle men. No more than a power plant is a middle man for electricity. They are the Source of divine magic. The reason that following a Philosophy works, is that some god, somewhere, is the patron of that philosophy, and grants you power in exchange for following their ideals.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-17, 01:29 PM
In traditional D&D settings, that's somewhat correct. Sans for the part about clerics who follow ideals rather then gods. Never in the player's handbook dose it say ideal following clerics get their powers because a god agrees with their ideal. It says they get powers from their ideal and that's all. It's never fully explained HOW they get their power from their ideal, it just says that belief in an ideal gives them their powers.

So your claim is simply creating a justification for ideal worshiping clerics getting spells which is something Wizards themselves never did. Thus, in your games, your explanation is true while in other people's games their explanation is true. It's as simple as that. Since the actual WOC fluff is so vauge it's up to players and DMs to fill in the holes so the idea of a "divine mage" is not impossible, though it may not be widely excepted.

However, if I missed something in the player's handbook or some other book please tell me. I tend to gloss over such things since I usually use my own fluff rather then that which Wizards provides. So, if your claim IS proven by actual text in an actual book by WOC(third party and widespread/respected homebrew dose not count here.) then I would love to know so I may know of my error and stand corrected.

In the end, though, I am more worried about the crunch of this class then the fluff at the moment. The fluff can be changed to whatever works for it once the crunch is complete. Right now I am mainly concerned with making this class a tier 1 divine caster that matches clerics, wizards, druids ect... without being better then all of them/being a class DMs of campaigns with other tier 1 classes would not auto-deny and until that happens any discussion of fluff can wait since I can mold fluff to fit the class.

Also, perhaps giving it some Healer/inflicter type abilities would help? Good priests could say get some kind of heal touch and remove disease and such while evil ones could get some kind of negative energy touch and contagion?

Likewise, what about pathfinder style "channeling" that acts as heals for good priests and inflicts for evil ones?

Prime32
2011-01-17, 04:23 PM
The closest to that "cut out the middleman" thing would be the Ur-priest prestige class, which steals power from gods or worships dead gods. Your fluff isn't much of a leap.

EDIT: Wasn't that "middleman" thing confirmed in the backstory of a vestige or Elder Evil? IIRC he was an angel who turned against the gods when he found out, and was transformed into a snakelike form as punishment.

Ralasha
2011-01-17, 04:57 PM
I made a Priest class that gains Lay on hands equal to their Charisma Modifier every round. Maybe look into something like that. It's considered by most people to be a caster equivalent to ToB classes.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-18, 10:44 AM
I actually have a better flavor for the class as it stands now. As appose to fluffing the class as a church leader I instead fluff it as a scholarly priest who exchanges the traditional martial training of clerics for studying aspects of arcane magic as well as learning the divine. The reason for this are both to make the flavor more fit the class' function and also because a "church leader" should really be a PrC, and when this class is finished I intend to make a PrC to fit that roll. (I already have ideas for it... It will be more less a "divine thrallheard" who's other abilities will be "preacher" type powers similar to an evangelist.)

So now we just need to fix this class so it's tier 1 but still "balanced" enough that a DM who allows other tier 1 classes would allow this one.

Prime32
2011-01-22, 08:43 AM
I actually have a better flavor for the class as it stands now. As appose to fluffing the class as a church leader I instead fluff it as a scholarly priest who exchanges the traditional martial training of clerics for studying aspects of arcane magic as well as learning the divine. The reason for this are both to make the flavor more fit the class' function and also because a "church leader" should really be a PrC, and when this class is finished I intend to make a PrC to fit that roll. (I already have ideas for it... It will be more less a "divine thrallheard" who's other abilities will be "preacher" type powers similar to an evangelist.)

So now we just need to fix this class so it's tier 1 but still "balanced" enough that a DM who allows other tier 1 classes would allow this one.You're looking for the Divine Magician ACF, which lets a cleric make a "custom domain" consisting of wizard spells. Or just the Magic domain (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spellLists/clericDomains.htm#magicDomain). Heck, put both of them together, combine with the Spontaneous Domain Casting ACF... You could put in cloistered cleric while you're at it.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-22, 01:31 PM
True, but I also want to make a cha-based, robe-wearing, divine casting tier 1 class. So if that fluff dose not work then I can easily fluff this as something else....such as the aforementioned Ur-Priest. However, as stated before, Crunch first, fluff later and I really want to make this class a tier 1 that is around the power level of other tier 1 classes as appose to a class that DMs who run other tier 1 classes would auto-deny. Perhaps cutting down the spells per-day to the same amount as a non-specialist wizard and getting rid of the bardic knowledge-esc feature would help a bit?

Prime32
2011-01-23, 11:09 AM
True, but I also want to make a cha-based, robe-wearing, divine casting tier 1 class.Take the Divine Gesture flaw (ASF for divine spells) and the Dynamic Priest feat (casting based on Cha). Done.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-24, 01:07 PM
That actually dose not work for what I want because Dynamic Priest make everything BUT DCs based on wisdom and if your going as a cloth type then your going to want offensive casting. Dynamic priest means you will not cast offensively unless you are epic level or get ahold of some massive stat boost item to reduce the horrid MAD you get. So, sadly, no, that dose not work out for what I want to do because it means you will not cast offensively, period. While clerics do get great buffs buffs go better with heavy armor, which means, other then flavor, there is no reason to take that flaw. Dynamic Priest also is tailor made for Clericzilla/the melee cleric(Better Cha= more turn/rebuke attempts and thus more uses of DMM: Persist per day..and since your being a melee character the hit to your DCs matters not.) and part of this class that is VERY important to me is making a tier 1, cha-based class that can be a Necromancer equal to a cleric.

So, as far as a cha-based, tier 1 necromancer goes, Dynamic Priest + a cleric can't do that because most necromancy spells not dealing with animation and buffing undead are save-based....which means, well, your screwed if you want to be a tier 1, Cha-based Necro unless you just go cleric/bone knight and focus strictly on animating undead and use melee for an offense rather then being a real necromancer, who would make use of all the things necromancy offers rather then just being clericzilla with a few minions.(Which Dynamic Priest forces you to do as a Necro since even rogues will laugh at your DCs unless your really high level or pull some magic item shenanigans.)

I mean, TECHNICALLY if the point buy is high enough you can get 18 wisdom and 18 cha at level one with a Lesser Aasmir character and then just set cha to 19 at level 4, never buff cha again and just focus all on wisdom for better DCs but then your not a cha-based caster, your a wis-based caster who happens to have 19 cha. Also, that build locks you into playing one race and one race only(unless you homebrew.).

Oh, and your other stats will be god awful unless you have a generous point buy. With a 32 point buy you get 16 cha, 16 wis, 8 strengthIf your going an offensive caster route this will be the first stat to dumb, despite being a cleric.), 12 in one stat(con most likely) 12 in another stat and then 8 in another before racial modifiers.(With Lesser Aasmire racial bonuses you end up with 18 wis and 18 cha..hence why I mentioned the race.)...So either your going to be a total moron(int is an otherwise dumb stat here) or your dexterity is going to suck meaning that, again, you will want heavy armor and since you dumbed strength thats not a good option either...so yeah...not quite what I am looking for.