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Paseo H
2011-01-15, 06:52 PM
Here's a thought experiment for you.

What do you find more maddening?

A villain who is pure evil and has no redeeming qualities? i.e. a sociopath/psychopathic Complete Monster without empathy or conscience?

Or...

A villain who does have redeeming qualities and a conscience and empathy...but still does terrible things and is cruel in personality about it?

After all, one expects the former to do horrible things, but you know that theoretically the latter should know better, and is certainly capable of better.

Rasman
2011-01-15, 07:00 PM
Here's a thought experiment for you.

What do you find more maddening?

A villain who is pure evil and has no redeeming qualities? i.e. a sociopath/psychopathic Complete Monster without empathy or conscience?

Or...

A villain who does have redeeming qualities and a conscience and empathy...but still does terrible things and is cruel in personality about it?

After all, one expects the former to do horrible things, but you know that theoretically the latter should know better, and is certainly capable of better.

The Latter. Doing evil just because you can/for personal gain is the worst for me. At least Pure Evil Psychopaths can be entertaining, while the latter is just doing it to be a douche.

Waker
2011-01-15, 08:13 PM
I would say the latter. With the first villain, they are viewed as irredeemable forces to be destroyed. A villain with good points can be frustrating because they have the potential for good.

I know the villain that my party hated the most. Years ago I made a villain who completely disregarded what the party did. He viewed them as test subjects for monsters he made, so even if the party won a battle, they couldn't even bask in his chagrin. He would just shrug and go back to the drawing board.

Callista
2011-01-15, 09:21 PM
Yup. I made that mistake with my first villain; he was a dwarf necromancer with absolutely no redeeming qualities, and served primarily as a tactical challenge. The PCs for the most part had an attitude that, "It's not personal, but you're killing and reanimating a bunch of people and that's not cool; therefore we're going to splatter your brains across the wall." Which they did, and which was fun, but not particularly memorable. It's important to make the villain a three-dimensional character, otherwise you will not be telling as good a story as you otherwise could.

If your villain is a dragon or a demon or similar, it's important to make him a smart villain rather than just generic "for the evulz". These are totally irredeemable and will not have any good side--but their followers most likely will. If you have a mostly-Good party, you may even be able to take the strategy of turning some of the totally-evil villain's somewhat-less-evil minions against him because even they will see him as the worst that it's possible to be.

Pentachoron
2011-01-15, 09:21 PM
I know the villain that my party hated the most. Years ago I made a villain who completely disregarded what the party did. He viewed them as test subjects for monsters he made, so even if the party won a battle, they couldn't even bask in his chagrin. He would just shrug and go back to the drawing board.

This. In my experience the BBEG that would most motivate the party is the one that completely disregarded them.

As far as the op question. I'd say the former is worse, as it has no real chance for redemption. The latter is typically better to have for rp reasons though in my experience.

Godskook
2011-01-15, 10:48 PM
Currently, my Campaign has:

1.Mind Flayers who have kidnapped the PC's friends.

2.Dragons who are messing with the political landscape.

3.Local bard-thief who tried to directly kill+rob them.

Oh, and there's the wizard who's been helping them along so far.

They barely care about the Flayers, are arrogant enough to storm a dragon's lair directly, without research, and befriended the bard. The wizard? They want him *DEAD*.

Rasman
2011-01-15, 11:02 PM
After thinking about it, the Villain that drives my party the Craziest is the one that we can't tell if he's a Villain or not.

We're currently in the midst of a war that will ultimately reseal Tharizdin, who has had his cage unlocked. So, the powers of "Good" vs the Powers of Chaos. (I only "" good because I'm Neutral, but also a Druid and thus trying to restore the balance of the world.) BUT there is this Wizard that is sort of a Neutral 3rd Party and he just sort of does his own thing. We encountered him and he offered to help us if we helped him. Being young and fresh adventurers, we accepted without TOO much hesitation. We didn't know, outright, that this guy was a Necromancer of sorts and that these seeds we planted for him were going to help him raise an entire army of Bloody Skeletons. Now, we have no proof that he's evil, just that he's really freakin creepy and does things in a whimsical manner that doesn't really care how he gets his task done, just that he gets it done.

Knowing his objective would be a real help, but, he's so flaky that we don't even have a guess yet.

Now that...is maddening.

Smeggedoff
2011-01-16, 01:53 AM
Choice two.
A person who seems entirely normal, rational and reasonable BUT chooses to do horrifying, evil things. Is much more monstrous that someone who is evidently just insane.

Especially if that first person is reasonable and charismatic enough to rationalise their plans in such a way that the PC's start doubting their own motives and goals.

BayardSPSR
2011-01-16, 02:04 AM
The villain who is not a villain. I hate those. I once played in a D&D campaign where the evil necromancer we were chasing turned around and claimed not to be an evil necromancer.

Me (as a Paladin): Detect evil?
DM: He's not evil.
Me: ... Sense Motive? 18?
DM: Looks like he's telling the truth.
Me: ... Detect evil?
DM: He's still not evil.

The session then dissolved into my character logically proving to this not-necromancer (who turned out to be the god of magic, in the end) that he was most certainly either a necromancer, a liar, one helluva jerkass and therefore probably evil, or not right in the head).


But when I'm the one running the game, I like to do it the other way around: set up a character as sinister initially, then make him 'friendly', then make him treacherous. It's fun. :smallsmile:

Darklord Bright
2011-01-16, 02:19 AM
I just don't like the villains who's only motivation is "lol I'm evil and crazy". There's no depth to that, and I'm much more likely to get agitated with them to the point that I come up with an elaborate scheme to get rid of them before a DM has planned for it. I mean, at least a motivated villain who doesn't believe they are evil is interesting and realistic. Anyone who does horrible things and thinks they are evil has something wrong with them. The awareness that you are evil is the awareness that you are wrong about what you are doing, and as mentioned before - "4 teh evulz" villains are boring.

That said, I like the ones aware that they are doing monstrous things, but have an in-depth reason where they think it's all worth it in the end. They really think that eventually it'll add up to something good they're trying to do. They're fun villains, so long as their logic doesn't have flaws a child could point out (and if it does they better have a good reason to keep using it).

I like my villains to have reasons behind what they do, and to think they're not bad people. Maybe even have redeeming features, like the warlord who is genuinely nice to children and animals.

So I guess, in short, the first one is the one that irritates me most as a villain.

Paseo H
2011-01-16, 03:07 AM
I'm not talking about flat "lol I'm so evil" types.

Okay, here's a clear illustration of the difference I'm talking about.

The BBEG of my current arc is an evil king who honestly believes that not only his kingdom, but all the universe belongs to him, and therefore he feels entitled to everything. He is currently on a quest to kill a daughter birthed by one of his mistresses because said daughter was taken to safety before she could be slain. This 'king' was the type who would kill his mistresses if they ever became pregnant. And because said daughter has his blood, he fears she could try to claim succession.

He also tested the bloodlust of his right hand man, by bringing the right hand man's sister before him and having him strike her down with unflinching, vicious abandon.

In other words, he is a Complete Monster with no redeeming qualities.

And then you have a backstory character, who is the reason the true Big Bad of the game had gone on her Start Of Darkness.

He was a grim, hyperserious commanding officer in the military. He expected near perfection and anything less was at the very least reprimanded severely. Intentional insubordination of any kind was met with the same sort of overbearing reassertion of 'authority' that every pompous 'my way or the highway' father exhibits.

However, he honestly believed in the greatness of the military, and loved his wife and two daughters.

The true problem came with how he viewed Rakshasas (not the creature type, but the catpeople who were named for them.)

In his mind, they were all as spoiled children who did as they pleased without a care in the world, who refused to acknowledge that he and other COs were their betters and that his towering, overbearing presence over them was his divine right.

And so, he often punished them more harshly than he would other races (he was human) for the same things.

This came to a head when in anger he placed a Rakshasa noblewoman on a Punishment Squad. A Punishment Squad basically entailed suicide missions. Generally speaking, they were not meant to come back alive.

Of course, when said noblewoman's loyal maidservant and spiritual sister finally went through everything needed for her epic revenge, she let him know that not only did she know that he wasn't a monster, but the fact that he wasn't a monster made him that much worse of a monster.

And that is how my game's Big Bad is a former catgirl maid. :smalltongue:

Godskook
2011-01-16, 03:50 AM
Me (as a Paladin): Detect evil?
DM: He's not evil.
Me: ... Sense Motive? 18?
DM: Looks like hie's telling the truth.
Me: ... Detect evil?
DM: He's still not evil.

At your level, not so much, but BBEGs can fake that stuff.

BayardSPSR
2011-01-16, 04:23 AM
At your level, not so much, but BBEGs can fake that stuff.

I sincerely hope the DM was NOT doing that to my poor Level 2 character whose player thought the Paladin was the best class ever and had not let learned how to take ten to prevent critical existence failure while climbing down a wall in full armor (died that session; last words were "SCREW YOU!" shouted mid-fall to the agent of my confusion).

Basically, I'm a multiclass D&D player 1/Homebrew narrator 3. I think you get 'take ten' at Level 2, right?



I also have too many ranks in 'craft: reference', but I can't make them go away...

Hazzardevil
2011-01-16, 05:52 AM
In a campaign I'm running soon I intend for there 2 be 2 guys, a very big dragon like malys from dragonlance and a demon trying to destory the whole multiverse which has dragonlance, eberron and an earth where there are no guns and everythign uses magic instead o electricity. I was thinking of having teh dragon be redeemable and possibly let the party be friends ith him.
and then the dragon stabs them in the back and leaves them to die at the hands of dominated level 1 commoners.

Cheesy74
2011-01-17, 12:20 AM
I find that sociopaths played like actual sociopaths are some of the most compelling villains around. The idea of someone doing evil like kidnapping, murder, or grand theft while having absolutely no idea that what they're doing is wrong has made for some of the greatest moral dilemmas in my campaign.

Archpaladin Zousha
2011-01-17, 12:40 AM
Personally, this dilemma is part of why I like the makeover Pathfinder gave Asmodeus and the rest of the devils and Hells too. In Pathfinder's universe, Asmodeus isn't a prideful fallen angel squatting in his cage pretending to divinity. He's not only a god, but one of the oldest and most powerful. He helped save the world from being destroyed and has offered counsel and support to virtually all the gods, even ones that by all rights should despise him. It doesn't change his alignment at all. He's still a methodical schemer and a ruthless dictator. He committed the first murder when he destroyed his brother Ihys, in a dispute about free will and its place in the universe. But he's also a staunch ally of the other gods, helping them whenever chaos threatens to overwhelm creation, primarily disagreeing with them over methods rather than ideology. He's practically a sociopath in his own right, but it's not that he doesn't know his evil acts are wrong. He simply doesn't care. He existed before things like good and evil existed, and he considers them unimportant in the grand scheme of things. Eventually mortals will realize that he's right, and when they do, maybe he can finall get things done properly.

It's a lot more complex and interesting than the relative straightforwardness of regular D&D's version, in my opinion.

Vknight
2011-01-17, 12:45 AM
The most memorable villains are the ones we can feel for understanding there fall or why they are evil. I do these things not because I can nor because I'm forced to but rather so others may have what they dream.

Look at any series 'Power Rangers' there villains when well fleshed out & given there reasons were not only interesting but had a story you wanted to see. You may not have wanted them to win but certainly wanted them to stick around.

Good villains can lead to fun instances especially in comedic campaigns were the party encounter a universe were the good guys are evil & the bad guys are good. Showing that the villain in his own right makes a good hero.

woodenbandman
2011-01-17, 01:01 AM
Evil badguys with good PR.

"aww he's so misunderst"-NO. i'm not misunderstood. I'M EVIL.

Vknight
2011-01-17, 01:05 AM
So the Final Fantasy 8 villain

She down right calls an entire country worthless scum & many other words well the crowd cheers her on.

Xefas
2011-01-17, 02:10 AM
The most maddening villain? Let me tell you about the most maddening villain.

Their is a person; well, more of a "will". A driving consciousness, if nothing else. He is the meekest shadow, hiding from the sun by cowering behind the rocks, and trees, and people of the world. He is also a serpentine dragon, soaring above cowering subjects, promising doom beneath his wing-beats. He is also a demonic horde, seething in the cesspits beyond the world, cheating and backstabbing one another even as they plot eon-spanning machinations to ruin all that is loved in the land above.

He is also a concept. He is antagonism. He gazes upon all that is and loathes it. When a hero rises up, he shatters them, and when a villain arises to take their place, he shatters them too. When you wake up feeling fresh and excited about the day, he stubs your toe. And when you sit around moping about how your life is awful, he gives your parents cancer. He hates life, and will spurn you onward into suicide, but he hates death too, so will save you at the last moment so that you can live with your shame.

For every selfless deed done, he will make sure that it meant absolutely nothing by sowing more torment in the world. And when you do nothing, he will be right there to cheer you up and set you back on the road to virtue, because the more good you do, the more evil he gets to do to balance it out. The more you push; the more he pushes back. The better a person you are, the worse someone else is. The more heroism you do, the worse life gets for everyone.

And the best part? At the creation of the world, He is the one that defined virtue. He set the sun in the sky, and birthed morality, and gave all the people of the world a moral compass. Just so he could hate them. Just so he could torture them for all time. Morality is this tiny, limited distinction placed in the minds of primitive beings so that they can suffer pointlessly, and eternally. That is the legacy of the Ebon Dragon.

Oh, and you can fight him. He's not some faceless, unkillable force that no one cares about because you can't do anything about him. You can kill him a lot, actually. There are, in fact, three different variations on killing him, depending on just how much killing you feel like doling out that evening.

One does nothing, and two of them make him worse.

Cheers.

Paseo H
2011-01-17, 02:11 AM
Well the topic is about the most maddening.

Because it's an easy thing that some villains will be taken for granted, while others will have the heroes dream at night of his prolonged, agonizing demise.

Godskook
2011-01-17, 05:50 AM
I sincerely hope the DM was NOT doing that to my poor Level 2 character whose player thought the Paladin was the best class ever and had not let learned how to take ten to prevent critical existence failure while climbing down a wall in full armor (died that session; last words were "SCREW YOU!" shouted mid-fall to the agent of my confusion).

Basically, I'm a multiclass D&D player 1/Homebrew narrator 3. I think you get 'take ten' at Level 2, right?



I also have too many ranks in 'craft: reference', but I can't make them go away...

1.Considering that the spell Undetectable alignment is a level 2 cleric spell(level 1 for bards!), I was wrong, it is common enough even at level 2, and since its a 24-hour duration spell, out of the box, its likely to be used *INCREDIBLY* often by those that use it.

2.Take a few levels in min-maxer, and then in roleplayer. That way, when you play your character concept, its effective, unless you're the type to decide on "ineffective" as a character concept.

FelixG
2011-01-17, 05:57 AM
Me (as a Paladin): Detect evil?
DM: He's not evil.
Me: ... Sense Motive? 18?
DM: Looks like he's telling the truth.
Me: ... Detect evil?
DM: He's still not evil.

Well done sir! You almost made me fall out of my chair laughing with this! :smallbiggrin:

Weimann
2011-01-17, 06:09 AM
None of those choices are really "maddening." the first one is boring and the second one is interesting. None really go into "why would you do this to meeee" territory.

Psychonix
2011-01-17, 09:24 AM
The most maddening villain? Let me tell you about the most maddening villain.

Their is a person; well, more of a "will". A driving consciousness, if nothing else. He is the meekest shadow, hiding from the sun by cowering behind the rocks, and trees, and people of the world. He is also a serpentine dragon, soaring above cowering subjects, promising doom beneath his wing-beats. He is also a demonic horde, seething in the cesspits beyond the world, cheating and backstabbing one another even as they plot eon-spanning machinations to ruin all that is loved in the land above.

He is also a concept. He is antagonism. He gazes upon all that is and loathes it. When a hero rises up, he shatters them, and when a villain arises to take their place, he shatters them too. When you wake up feeling fresh and excited about the day, he stubs your toe. And when you sit around moping about how your life is awful, he gives your parents cancer. He hates life, and will spurn you onward into suicide, but he hates death too, so will save you at the last moment so that you can live with your shame.

For every selfless deed done, he will make sure that it meant absolutely nothing by sowing more torment in the world. And when you do nothing, he will be right there to cheer you up and set you back on the road to virtue, because the more good you do, the more evil he gets to do to balance it out. The more you push; the more he pushes back. The better a person you are, the worse someone else is. The more heroism you do, the worse life gets for everyone.

And the best part? At the creation of the world, He is the one that defined virtue. He set the sun in the sky, and birthed morality, and gave all the people of the world a moral compass. Just so he could hate them. Just so he could torture them for all time. Morality is this tiny, limited distinction placed in the minds of primitive beings so that they can suffer pointlessly, and eternally. That is the legacy of the Ebon Dragon.

Oh, and you can fight him. He's not some faceless, unkillable force that no one cares about because you can't do anything about him. You can kill him a lot, actually. There are, in fact, three different variations on killing him, depending on just how much killing you feel like doling out that evening.

One does nothing, and two of them make him worse.

Cheers.

Until you mentioned the Ebon Dragon, I thought you were talking about the DM...

Paseo H
2011-01-17, 10:27 AM
None of those choices are really "maddening." the first one is boring and the second one is interesting. None really go into "why would you do this to meeee" territory.

The latter is maddening because the person is knowingly making a choice to do evil, whereas arguably a Complete Monster may well be incapable of truly knowing right from wrong.

Callista
2011-01-17, 12:12 PM
I honestly don't think that anyone of a non-"Always Evil" race (demons, etc.) coUld actually be a "complete monster"--they can get asymptotically close, but as far as I can tell there are always choices that they made. Maybe they made them so long ago that they don't remember anything but evil; but at some point they had the potential to be non-evil. Even sociopaths can choose not to hurt others (most do--they find that it's to their benefit to treat others politely--and sociopathy can't be diagnosed in children).

Sipex
2011-01-17, 01:02 PM
I will say that my PCs have showed a greater disdain for enemies who are three dimensional compared to those who are simply "Evil because they can"

Masaioh
2011-01-17, 01:32 PM
The most maddening villain I have come up with is a troll. As in internet troll. Think of Hazama/Terumi from Blazblue. Most of his appearances consisted of him appearing from nowhere or dispelling a disguise, blowing something up to hinder the players, and then leaving via teleportation or flight. But not before he kills a tarrasque or three.

TinselCat
2011-01-17, 01:36 PM
The first mini-villain I created for my players was a bit of a flop. He was portrayed as holding a mountain pass into a city hostage for a toll/tax. When asked, he would insist to have created the pass himself, and the toll was a repayment of his effort in making the land passable.

Unfortunately the party, when confronting him in his lair, didn't let him get in more than a sentence before saying "Nuh-uuh!" and starting combat.

Next time I'll have to beat the party over the head with "look, it's a nice guy" and then reveal his potential for evil , because clearly the other way won't work. This next one should be more maddening, because he's intended to be a recurring villain, and not kill-able in one fight like this mini-boss.

Radar
2011-01-17, 02:15 PM
I wouldn't discard insane villians, who do things just for evulz. They can be done well, yet are much harder to characterise properly. After all, we were given Joker and Hannibal Lecter. A well made psychotic villian can be more maddening then a composed one simply because he's unpredictible - there is no plan to follow, no overarching goal, no way of preparing yourself for the next encounter. How can you protect your homeland/loved ones/etc. if you don't know when and how will he strike? In general it might be useful to rely on our instinctual fear of psychotic killers. He might be friendly, charismatic and with responsible job and then he stabs you for no reason, while complimenting your new curtains.

Consider yet another possible bad guy: a bored demon or a devil, that took particular interest in watching our humble band of adventurers. To spice his favorite show up, he will arrange situations, where he will be the only person at hand capable of helping the PCs. He will actually help them, but it will come with a price tag, that the "good guys" might not like. For example, he might want an offering of souls - those could be of any sentient creatures PCs will slay. Will they take the deal, or will they stay true to their morals? How will they react, when they finally learn, that this particular demon is purposfully setting them up, so they must rely on his help? There's not much to understand about this villian, he's just trying to entertain himself. Yet, the players will most likely hate him and try to take him down - feeling like a chesspiece in someone's game is one of those things, that players and PCs alike detest.

grimbold
2011-01-17, 02:34 PM
surely the 1st one. its scary that way

Keinnicht
2011-01-17, 05:16 PM
The villain who's villainy is entirely debatable.

In the TV Tropes vernacular, "The Utopia Justifies The Means" baddie.

nedz
2011-01-17, 05:56 PM
Oh, and there's the wizard who's been helping them along so far.
... The wizard? They want him *DEAD*.

DEATH to the Mary Sue :smallbiggrin:

I tend not to run BBEGs too often. I prefer organisations/politics/conspiracies they are much harder to dispose of, and will bounce back.