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Gabe the Bard
2011-01-19, 12:05 AM
I'm trying to come up with two epic spells for my character, and I could use some suggestions. The ideas I have so far are a ward against dispelling and a mass strength enhancement (+20).

If anyone has comments for these or suggestions for other spells, I would love to hear them. I'm mainly looking for spells to make the rest of the party more awesome.


Bane of Dispelling
Abjuration
Spellcraft DC: 68
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: 20 ft.
Area: 20 ft.-radius emanation centered on you
Duration: 24 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 603,000gp; 13 days; 24,480 XP. Seeds: abjuration (DC 14). Factors: dismissible (+2 DC), increase area by 100% (+4), specific protections dispel magic (+4 DC), dispelling breath (+8 DC), spelltheft (+8 DC), greater dispel magic (+10 DC), chain dispel (+14 DC), reaving dispel (+16 DC), mageís disjunction (+16 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC).

This ward protects against spells that dispel magical effects. The ward is centered on you and moves with you. Those inside the ward are invulnerable to Dispel Magic, Dispelling Breath, Spelltheft, Greater Dispel Magic, Chain Dispel, Reaving Dispel, and Mageís Disjunction. You and your allies may still cast these spells through or out of the warded area.

Titanís Strength
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 65
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Up to 4 creatures touched
Duration: 20 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 585,000 gp; 12 days; 23,400 XP. Seeds: fortify (DC 17). Factors: additional +19 enhancement bonus (+38 DC), three additional targets (+10 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC).

This spell grants the subjects a +20 enhancement bonus to strength.


Right now, the max spellcraft DC that my character can manage is 69. Development costs aren't an issue because I'll be able to get the spells for free from an NPC (without using stone tablets).

EDIT: Here's my build, along with the rest of our party:


Bard 10/Sublime Chord 11
STR: 12 [+1]
DEX: 14 [+2]
CON: 16 [+3]
INT: 18 [+4]
WIS: 19 [+4]
CHA: 25 [+7]

FEATS
1 Nymph's Kiss
3 Melodic Casting
6 Words of Creation
9 Song of the Heart
12 Versatile Spellcaster
15 Arcane Disciple: Healing
18 Rapid Metamagic
21 Epic Spellcasting

THE PARTY:
Barbarian/Lion Totem Barbarian (homebrewed race, large size, has 4 arms).
Half Drow Fighter/Sorcerer/Abjurant Champion/Spellsword/Eldritch Knight
Human Knight/Paladin
Aasimar Cleric/Church Inquisitor/Fist of Raziel
Grey Elf Abjurer/Master Specialist/Ruathar/Abjurant Champion
Planetar

Masaioh
2011-01-19, 12:12 AM
This never ends well.

Could you please post your build? You haven't even posted what class the character is. House rules would help as well.

Personally I'm a fan of conjuration spells, especially making cages, etc. around enemies.

EDIT: Also, I don't recognize some of the modifiers on Bane of Dispelling such as 'reaving dispel'. Are they ad-hoc?

Chess435
2011-01-19, 12:20 AM
I'd probably throw antimagic field under that first one if I were you.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-19, 01:16 AM
@ I'll include my build and the party make-up in the OP. Reaving Dispel is a 9th-level spell from Spell Compendium that's similar to Spelltheft. There shouldn't be any ad hoc factors in either of these spells unless I missed something. There are some houserules on Epic feats. Specifically, multispell and improved combat reflexes have been banned. However, epic spellcasting and spell development can be used as written.

@ chess435: I thought of adding Antimagic Field, but I would have to take out one of the other specific protections or make the spell a ritual (which wouldn't be impossible, since we have a lot of casters in our party). But now that I think about it, I think having one non-epic way to counter the ward isn't a bad idea in case someone manages to steal its effect.

Douglas
2011-01-19, 01:22 AM
Leaving AMF as an intentional hole in your spell is a Very Bad Idea. It is the single most potent anti-high-level-PC spell in existence, especially against a party with a lot of casters. AMF and Disjunction are the two spells above all others that you want to block at any cost.

Now what can get really nasty with epic spells like this is making the radius on a Ward large enough to not only protect you but also remove certain spells from your enemies - Twice Betrayer of Shar is messing you up? Just walk to within 100' of him and both his AMF and his Delay Death are suppressed, leaving him wide open for obliteration. I played in a level 50 gestalt arena game once, with some pretty impressive powergamers and very few house rules, and this exact tactic with a carefully chosen (and long) list of spells was the primary reason my character destroyed all opposition. It was quite amusing how many times someone pulled out what they thought would be a win button, or at the very least give them a major advantage, and it just failed automatically without me even doing anything.

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-19, 01:48 AM
@ douglas: True, antimagic field can be deadly since we have so many casters. In that case, are there other spells you would include in the ward besides Antimagic field and Disjunction?

Now that I think about it, maybe Silence should be included, as well as all the 1st-level spells that could be factored in for free. Perhaps I should change the name from Bane of Dispelling to something else.

Runestar
2011-01-19, 06:47 AM
Titanís Strength
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 65
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 11 minutes
Range: Touch
Target: Up to 4 creatures touched
Duration: 20 hours (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless)
To Develop: 585,000 gp; 12 days; 23,400 XP. Seeds: fortify (DC 17). Factors: additional +19 enhancement bonus (+38 DC), three additional targets (+10 DC). Mitigating factors: increase casting time by 10 minutes (-20 DC).

This spell grants the subjects a +20 enhancement bonus to strength.
The DC should be made much lower.

First off, casting time is capped at 10 minutes, so you can only get a -18 mitigating factor.

Next, instead of specifying 3 extra targets, why not change the area to 20-ft radius? Also get some spellcasters to contribute slots (at this lv, they should be swimming in them, and can afford to lose at least a 6th lv slot for the day). Extend the duration to at least 2 days while you are at it, this way, you can buff, then rest to regain your slots for the day.

Douglas
2011-01-19, 09:13 AM
@ douglas: True, antimagic field can be deadly since we have so many casters. In that case, are there other spells you would include in the ward besides Antimagic field and Disjunction?

Now that I think about it, maybe Silence should be included, as well as all the 1st-level spells that could be factored in for free. Perhaps I should change the name from Bane of Dispelling to something else.
Well, if you want the full list from my epic gestalt arena character:
Spells that grant extra actions, either directly or through a duplicate:
Anticipatory Strike
Body Outside Body
Celerity
Greater Celerity
Fission
Schism
Synchronicity
Temporal Acceleration
Timestop

Spells that grant uncapped bonuses:
Adrenaline Boost
Consumptive Field
Greater Consumptive Field
Improvisation
Masochism
Precognition
Defensive Precognition
Offensive Precognition
Offensive Prescience
Sadism

Spells that dispel either automatically or with no cap on the check:
Disjoin
Disjunction
Otiluke's Suppressing Field

Spells that are a potential major inconvenience and cannot be negated any other reliable way:
Anticipate Teleportation
Greater Anticipate Teleportation
Delay Death
Empyreal Ecstasy
Nondetection
Starmantle
Sublime Revelry
Superior Invisibility (negated by True Seeing, yes, but I'd expect someone who depends on this to ward against True Seeing)
Timeless Body

Line of Effect Denial:
Forcecage

All of these spells were negated in a 100' radius around my character, and I'd used a particular cheesy trick to exempt myself from the suppression so most of these spells would be forbidden only for my opponents. AMF is not on the list purely because one of the arena's few house rules removed it from the game. Various other dispels were not on the list because they all depended on dispel checks with caps too low to work against my caster level. I was planning to add various Wall spells to the list too, to prevent someone from getting out of the suppression by creating a wall to block line of effect, but I never got around to it.

Dante & Vergil
2011-01-20, 05:27 AM
What book is Disjoin in? I noticed it in your list. Also, what would you estimate the Spellcraft DC for that warding spell you made would be, before and after mitigating factors?

Myth
2011-01-20, 09:00 AM
Your DM allowed a PC Planetar? This won't end well :smallsmile: Especially since they have no mentioned LA or progression and get a lot of bang for their buck (that is, per Outsider HD)

Dante & Vergil
2011-01-20, 07:43 PM
The Planetar PC could be using one of the forum's Improved Monster Classes.

Urpriest
2011-01-20, 07:54 PM
The Planetar PC could be using one of the forum's Improved Monster Classes.

Plus I'm fairly certain Epic Leadership has a LA for them. They're not that great if you factor that in.

Anyway, do you want to avoid the standard epic spell cheese? Or are you unaware of the standard epic spell cheese and would like a cheesy trick to give your party godlike power?

Jack_Simth
2011-01-20, 08:18 PM
Well, if you want the full list from my epic gestalt arena character:
Spells that grant extra actions, either directly or through a duplicate:
Anticipatory Strike
Body Outside Body
Celerity
Greater Celerity
Fission
Schism
Synchronicity
Temporal Acceleration
Timestop

Spells that grant uncapped bonuses:
Adrenaline Boost
Consumptive Field
Greater Consumptive Field
Improvisation
Masochism
Precognition
Defensive Precognition
Offensive Precognition
Offensive Prescience
Sadism

Spells that dispel either automatically or with no cap on the check:
Disjoin
Disjunction
Otiluke's Suppressing Field

Spells that are a potential major inconvenience and cannot be negated any other reliable way:
Anticipate Teleportation
Greater Anticipate Teleportation
Delay Death
Empyreal Ecstasy
Nondetection
Starmantle
Sublime Revelry
Superior Invisibility (negated by True Seeing, yes, but I'd expect someone who depends on this to ward against True Seeing)
Timeless Body

Line of Effect Denial:
Forcecage

Don't forget:
Antimagic Ray
Wall of Force
Wall of X.

Actually, if you've got a trick that leaves you exempt, just make it all spells 11th level and lower. Much less expensive at that point, and will also take down other people's Epic spells.

What was in use... Extraordinary Spell Aim? Possibly Mastery of Shaping?

If the casting spellcraft DC is too high, you might be able to get it anyway using Permanent Emanation. Then you don't even need to worry about the spell duration, or it getting Dispelled....

Douglas
2011-01-20, 09:02 PM
Don't forget:
Antimagic Ray
Ray Deflection

Wall of Force
Wall of X.
I was going to add those, but never found the time before the arena tapered off to nothing.


Actually, if you've got a trick that leaves you exempt, just make it all spells 11th level and lower. Much less expensive at that point, and will also take down other people's Epic spells.

What was in use... Extraordinary Spell Aim? Possibly Mastery of Shaping?
Extraordinary Spell Aim. Going the "all spells" route wasn't feasible due to house ruled limits on pre-mitigation spellcraft DC.


If the casting spellcraft DC is too high, you might be able to get it anyway using Permanent Emanation. Then you don't even need to worry about the spell duration, or it getting Dispelled....
Even without the house rule, epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells)

Gabe the Bard
2011-01-20, 11:28 PM
@ douglas: Wow, that is a really extensive list! Thanks for sharing it, but some of these spells are ones that we use as buffs for ourselves, like empyreal ecstacy. I know that the ward seed allows you to cast any spell through or out of the ward, but I'm not sure how we can make ourselves exempt when we're inside the ward ourselves. I'm curious as to how you pulled that off.

@ Myth: The planetar was supposed to be a temporary character for one or two sessions, but she wound up staying with the party. Our DM made up a separate progression for her so that when she gains enough hit dice she'll eventually become a solar.

@Urpriest: I'm not really aiming for godlike power, but something that's fun or useful for the other players and is hard to obtain through pre-epic spells and methods. +20 to strength stood out as something they would like, especially our barbarian. And a ward against dispelling just seemed useful since we rely so much on our buffed up melee fighters.

One other spell I was fiddling with was a 20-ft. radius version of Time Stop, which just seemed like a neat idea, but I wasn't sure when it would be really useful. Maybe to heal or rebuff an ally, or to buff up a summoned monster inside the time stopped area?

Time Bubble
Conjuration [Teleporation]
Spellcraft DC: 69
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: 20 ft.
Area: 20-ft.-radius emanation center on you
Duration: 5 rounds or until discharged (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
To Develop: 621,000 gp; 13 days; 24,840 XP. Seed: transport (DC 27). Factors: dismissible (+2 DC), move to time stream (+8 DC), change personal to area of 20-ft hemisphere (+15 DC), 1-action casting time (+20 DC). Mitigating factors: 3d6 backlash (-3 DC).

This spell creates a bubble in the time stream. Those inside the bubble speed up so greatly that everything outside the bubble seems frozen. They can act freely for 5 rounds of apparent time. Their attacks cannot affect any creature outside the bubble. Anyone who leaves the spellís area immediately returns to the normal time stream and is frozen for the remainder of the spellís duration.
Creating a time bubble is a dangerous and exhausting effort. You take 3d6 backlash damage each round while the bubble lasts. If you are killed or leave the spellís area before the duration expires, the spell ends immediately.

Jack_Simth
2011-01-20, 11:37 PM
Ray Deflection
You can't rely on this. Think about it:
What happens if someone else figures out this tactic (and in this case, that'd be the DM, who must be told how it works...) and uses the exact same method to neutralize some such key non-epic defense?


Extraordinary Spell Aim. Going the "all spells" route wasn't feasible due to house ruled limits on pre-mitigation spellcraft DC.
Good.

Although honestly, the simplest fix for Epic spells is to make the Time, GP, and XP costs based on the pre-mitigation DC - so yes, you can mitigate that 1,000 DC Epic spell down to 0 so it's castable... but you'll still need to spend 9,000,000 gp, 180 days, and 360,000 xp to develop it...



Even without the house rule, epic feats that manipulate normal spells cannot be used with epic spells. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/spellsIntro.htm#metamagicItemsandEpicSpells)
Ah, right. I keep forgetting about that one....

Douglas
2011-01-21, 12:07 AM
You can't rely on this. Think about it:
What happens if someone else figures out this tactic (and in this case, that'd be the DM, who must be told how it works...) and uses the exact same method to neutralize some such key non-epic defense?
True, though I also had measures to attempt to defeat that, and the DM neither built nor played the usual opposition.

Also, the house rule removal of AMF was actually a removal of all Anti-Magic effects. Pretty much, if you want to negate all of somebody else's magic you have to make a check, and things that skip the check are banned. Disjunction got modified to a standard dispel check, just with no cap on the caster level bonus.


Although honestly, the simplest fix for Epic spells is to make the Time, GP, and XP costs based on the pre-mitigation DC - so yes, you can mitigate that 1,000 DC Epic spell down to 0 so it's castable... but you'll still need to spend 9,000,000 gp, 180 days, and 360,000 xp to develop it...
Make that 9,000,000 gp, 180 days, and 650,000 more gp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/magicItems/rods.htm#excellentMagic). And with a level 50 character's budget and development happening in backstory...


@ douglas: Wow, that is a really extensive list! Thanks for sharing it, but some of these spells are ones that we use as buffs for ourselves, like empyreal ecstacy. I know that the ward seed allows you to cast any spell through or out of the ward, but I'm not sure how we can make ourselves exempt when we're inside the ward ourselves. I'm curious as to how you pulled that off.
For my arena character, I used Extraordinary Spell Aim from Complete Adventurer. That only works for a single character, though, so if you're working with a full party you'll need something else.

I'd suggest crafting another epic spell with the Ward seed, designed specifically to block the first one but only on its targets (i.e. the party) with no area exclusion. You'll have to anchor the large area Ward on something other than a party member, though, and I suggest putting the anti-dispel blocking in this second spell too - otherwise you'd be removing your own dispel protection from yourselves.

Crow
2011-01-21, 12:22 AM
Here's a simple one that you can use to make your melee dudes better;


Elsa's Blade of the Wraith
Transmutation
Spellcraft DC: 0
Components: V, S
Casting Time: 14 days
Range: 300 ft.
Target: One melee weapon
Duration: Permanant
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (harmless, object)
Spell Resistance: Yes (harmless, object)
To Develop: 0gp, 1 day, 0xp. Seed: Transform Factors: Transform to incorporeal form (+10), Up to 30 hardness (+15) Mitigating Factors: 14-day casting time (-46)

Description: This 14-day ordeal partially imbues one melee weapon (with no more than 30 hardness) with the incorporeal properties of a wraith. Using the caster's own blood, a series of runes are drawn upon the weapon, which fade away upon completion of the spell. When complete, the weapon becomes semi-translucent, though still weighs as heavily in the wielder's hand. Melee attacks made with this weapon are resolved as melee touch attacks rather than normal melee attacks. Within an anti-magic field, the weapon acts as a normal weapon of it's type.

Fishy
2011-01-21, 02:33 AM
I'm a fan of Tonberrian's 9001st Ward. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6115199&postcount=15)