PDA

View Full Version : Crazy Gambit: What creatures can I take steal bodies from?



RndmNumGen
2011-01-19, 01:24 AM
EDIT: Apparently, Mind Switch only works on creatures with HD less than the player's manifester level. So no, you can't steal a Tarrasque's body. However, this could probably be used on some other creatures...

I was browsing the SRD when I came across the Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) power. The power itself functions something as a cross between a resurrection and a lich's phylactery, but there is a note at the bottom of the spell that says:


Conceivably, you could manifest mind switch to utilize a temporary body, but only an evil creature would smash his own temporarily empty storage crystal to permanently usurp a subjectís organic body (unless the subject is itself irredeemably evil)

Now, Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm) is a Telepathy [Mind-Affecting] power which temporarily transfers two individual's consciousness. Since they share bodies, if one of them dies, the other dies when the power expires, making this a rather limited ability when it comes to combat. However, the text in Astral Seed implies that smashing the seed after a mind switch would make the transfer permanent, giving the manifester a new body and killing the victim.

Now, the Tarrasque (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/tarrasque.htm) has a fairly high Will save and even higher Spell Resistance, but I don't see anything in it's description that makes it immune to Mind-Affecting effects. What I'm wondering would be, would a high-level psion be able to kill himself, flowing into his seed, then manifesting Mind Switch on a Tarrasque and assuming he overcame the beast's SR, smash his old seed, permanently giving himself the body of a Tarrasque(With high-level manifesting powers no less!) Granted, you would still have your old HP and saves, but all the extraordinary powers and high stats of the creature would be a huge boon.

If there is something special about the Tarrasque that prevents this, are there any other powerful creatures this could work on?

Callista
2011-01-19, 01:29 AM
I think it would work, but then you'd have to make a Reflex save vs. the dreaded Flying DMG. :)

I mean, really, how would YOU like to try challenging a PC who's stolen the body of the Tarrasque?

(If you want to actually use it in a game rather than as a thought experiment, pick something that gives you useful but minor benefits, for example flight, scent, etc.)

RndmNumGen
2011-01-19, 01:39 AM
(If you want to actually use it in a game rather than as a thought experiment, pick something that gives you useful but minor benefits, for example flight, scent, etc.)

Yeah, well when I originally came up with the idea I was thinking of something like taking over a high-level enemy fighter or something, but then I started thinking about becoming a king... and then I thought about more than a king. But you're right really, I wouldn't want to do this in a campaign; If I succeeded then it would be a real campaign-ender, but if I failed then I would just be dead, so lose-lose there.

Fun to think about though...

I'm also entertained that post made me an Orc :smallbiggrin:

Escheton
2011-01-19, 03:39 AM
When my gestalt party hits a high enough lvl they will now be facing the Tarrasque as a lvl 20 gestalt psion.
Thank you for this brilliant way of making this icon of a monster actually worth its cr.

LordBlades
2011-01-19, 10:34 AM
I think it would work, but then you'd have to make a Reflex save vs. the dreaded Flying DMG. :)

I mean, really, how would YOU like to try challenging a PC who's stolen the body of the Tarrasque?



Aiven the fact that Astral Seed is an 8th level power, so probably this trick would be pulled off at lvl 15+, having the body (and physical stats) of a tarrasque is really not that great compared to having access to 8th level spells/powers.

Actually, come to think of it, doing this trick to a dragon or a Pit Fiend (and then use Expansion when needed) yelds better results.

Chilingsworth
2011-01-19, 10:41 AM
Aiven the fact that Astral Seed is an 8th level power, so probably this trick would be pulled off at lvl 15+, having the body (and physical stats) of a tarrasque is really not that great compared to having access to 8th level spells/powers.

Actually, come to think of it, doing this trick to a dragon or a Pit Fiend (and then use Expansion when needed) yelds better results.

You wouldn't lose any of your manifesting abilities (unless you lose a level for dying with astral seed?) That's part of the point. If you did do this, though, you'd be even better off if you had the metamorposis power so you could still walk around as a humanoid (or whatever else you want to!) and interact with people.

RndmNumGen
2011-01-19, 10:55 AM
Aiven the fact that Astral Seed is an 8th level power, so probably this trick would be pulled off at lvl 15+, having the body (and physical stats) of a tarrasque is really not that great compared to having access to 8th level spells/powers.

Actually, come to think of it, doing this trick to a dragon or a Pit Fiend (and then use Expansion when needed) yelds better results.


You wouldn't lose any of your manifesting abilities (unless you lose a level for dying with astral seed?) That's part of the point. If you did do this, though, you'd be even better off if you had the metamorposis power so you could still walk around as a humanoid (or whatever else you want to!) and interact with people.

Correct. You assume all the physical and extraordinary abilities of the creature, but retain your own HP, saves, spell-like and supernatural abilities(you do not inherit spell-like or supernatural abilities from the creature you switch with, though if it has a higher DEX and CON you can get boosts to your HP and saves). That means swapping with a balor or dragon would actually be significantly weaker since most of their abilities are (Sp) or (Su), though it would still be a significant upgrade over your previous humanoid form.

Like most resurrection spells, Astral Seed has a 1 level penalty, so you would lose a little bit of your psychic power but it is possible to gain that back. Other than that though, you suffer no loss of your manifesting abilities.

And yeah, having Metamorph would probably be a good idea, just so you can make it to town to buy stuff without scaring everyone away.

LordBlades
2011-01-19, 10:56 AM
You wouldn't lose any of your manifesting abilities (unless you lose a level for dying with astral seed?) That's part of the point. If you did do this, though, you'd be even better off if you had the metamorposis power so you could still walk around as a humanoid (or whatever else you want to!) and interact with people.

What I meant was that at that level spellcasting/manifesting abilites are way more powerful than physical stuff. Of course it will be more powerful than a straight Psion 15, but not by such a large margin as other people in this thread seemed to think.


EDIT: Nvm, I stand corrected. I was under the impression that Mind Switch works like Polymorph, where you only gain the Ex. special attacks of the new form.
I re-read it and you gain all the Ex. qualities of the new form. So yeah, a spellcaster with Carapace and Regeneration would be pretty powerful.

Gorgondantess
2011-01-19, 02:41 PM
Or, rather than losing a whole level, you could just be a telepath and manifest mind switch, true (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm). Then bam, you're good.
Of course, as a DM, I'd just have an NPC get the same idea.:smallwink:

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-19, 05:18 PM
Sounds like a great idea for a major campaign villain! :smallamused:

Prime32
2011-01-19, 05:25 PM
Or, rather than losing a whole level, you could just be a telepath and manifest mind switch, true (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitchTrue.htm). Then bam, you're good.
Of course, as a DM, I'd just have an NPC get the same idea.:smallwink:You know, except that it takes 1 minute to manifest and costs 10,000XP per attempt.

Mando Knight
2011-01-19, 05:42 PM
You know, except that it takes 1 minute to manifest and costs 10,000XP per attempt.

Find a sleeping tarrasque. Obviously. :smalltongue:

Callista
2011-01-19, 05:56 PM
Yep. The Big T isn't that smart. Just feed it a herd of cattle or so and watch it go to sleep....

Prime32
2011-01-19, 06:13 PM
Unless you go with the fluff where the tarrasque's only sleep is a form of hibernation where it fuses with the planet.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-20, 09:15 AM
Unless you go with the fluff where the tarrasque's only sleep is a form of hibernation where it fuses with the planet.

I've never heard of that before. Is that from 2nd Edition? :smallconfused:

Prime32
2011-01-20, 09:19 AM
I've never heard of that before. Is that from 2nd Edition? :smallconfused:IIRC it was in Dragon's Ecology of the Tarrasque article. Don't know where else it might have been. But basically when it's full it gets Earth Glide.

Psychonix
2011-01-20, 10:46 AM
Unfortunately, this wouldn't work.

The Tarrasque has 48HD.
Mind switch can only target a creature with HD equal to or less than your manifester level.

RndmNumGen
2011-01-20, 01:39 PM
Oh... hmm. Yeah, I missed that... I knew it was too good to be true! Well, I suppose you could pull it off if you found some way to get a ML of 48, but I wouldn't even know where to begin with that...

So what other creatures would this work on then?

All Demons?
All Devils?
Devas & Planetars
Dragons up to Adult or Young Adult, depending on type.
Titans

DaragosKitsune
2011-01-20, 04:57 PM
Level 15+, you say.
Well, some ideas from the MM for a 15 ML would be:

Elder Arrowhawk
Delver
Horned Devil
Juvenile Blue Dragon
Young Adult White Dragon
Juvenile Bronze Dragon
Fire Giant
Marut Inevitable
Cauchemar Nightmare
Phasm
Noble Salamander
Death Slaad
Elder Tojanida
Elder Xorn


Note that this doesn't account for which are "better" or which ones have more Ex) abilities than Su) ones. It also doesn't include anything with less than 15 HD, some of which have amazing abilities or stats. I also only included living creatures.

Psychonix
2011-01-20, 05:08 PM
You could have someone create a simulacrum of a higher HD creature. The simulcrum has half the HD, so this may be worth having a look at.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-20, 06:34 PM
You could have someone create a simulacrum of a higher HD creature. The simulcrum has half the HD, so this may be worth having a look at.

You'd still need a 24th level caster to simulacrum the Tarrasque.

Claudius Maximus
2011-01-20, 06:39 PM
Oh no CL 24 how will we ever reach such heights (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872350/Raising_Caster_Level)

Jack_Simth
2011-01-20, 07:21 PM
I was browsing the SRD when I came across the Astral Seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) power. The power itself functions something as a cross between a resurrection and a lich's phylactery, but there is a note at the bottom of the spell that says:3.0 leftover. In the Psionics Handbook (3.0), Mind Switch was Instant if you killed your old body before the duration expired - no repercussions, even - and there was no True Mind Switch power. At that time, the line in Astral Seed made perfect sense. There's semi-technically ways around this, however, depending on how you track things.

Definitions:
BT: Body-Target: Body you want:
MT: Mind-Target: Mind you want to dispose of, that starts out inhabiting BT
BP: Body-Patsy: Body of someone you don't care about.
MP: Mind-Patsy: Mind of someone you don't care about, that starts out inhabiting BP.
BO: Body-Original: Body you start out with.
MO: Mind-Original: Your mind, that starts out inhabiting BO.

Method:
1) Manifest Mind Switch on BT, putting MT in BO, and MO in BT.
2) Manifest Mind Switch on BP, putting MP in BT, and MO in BP
3) Manifest Dispel Psionics on BO, undoing switch one. As currently, MP is in BT, and MT is in BO, that puts MT in BT and MP in BO
4) Manifest Dispel Psionics on BP, undoing switch two. As currently, MO is in BP, and MT is in BT, MO is returned to BT, and MT is 'returned' to BP.

Result: MO (You) are in BT (Body Target). MT (Mind of target) is in BP (Body of Patsy). MP (Mind of Patsy) is in BO (your original body).

Now, this does have a couple of requirements:
1) That nothing interferes for the four or more rounds you're doing this.
2) You can avoid DM wrath.
3) That "original bodies" as listed in the Mind Switch power refers to 'before this manifestation of Mind Switch', rather than 'absolute original'.
4) That the current inhabitant of a body is considered the participant of the power when a given Mind Switch is dispelled.

The actual power description does support 3 and 4 somewhat:

If one participantís body becomes petrified, imprisoned by temporal stasis or imprisonment, or incapacitated in some other way, the other participant will be incapacitated in that way when the power ends.

Additionally, 'breaking' requirement 3 lets you arrange to have multiple people inhabiting the same body simultaneously (Chain Mind Switch, then dispel the most recent), so that's something you probably want to avoid as a DM anyway. 1 and 2 I can't help you with.



As for what to get?
Depends on what you want.

You've got 1/2 BAB still (usually), so you likely don't want a specific combat form. So you likely want defense (DR, Regen, Natural Armor, Ex invisibility, Immunity to Magic, et cetera) or utility abilities (Fly speed, burrow speed, climb speed, racial skill bonuses, et cetera).

A Will O Wisp (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/willOWisp.htm) has Ex invisibility (regular invisibility) at will, Magic Immunity, Fly 50 (Perfect), a really good Dex score (29!), and a +9 Deflection bonus to AC (no source - presumed Ex).
Not a bad choice, generally.

If you're Evil, primarily fighting good-aligned opponents, then a Planetar has SR 30, Regeneration 10 Evil, some minor elemental resistances, and Fly 90 (Good) (A Solar is markedly better, but with 22 hit dice, is harder to get).

If you're Good, primarily fighting evil-aligned opponents, then a Horned Devil has SR 28, Regeneration 5 (Good and Silver weapons, Good Spells), Fly 50 (Average), and a few other nifties (A Pit Fiend is better, although it's CR 20 and has 18 hit dice, so might be out of reach).

Chilingsworth
2011-01-20, 07:24 PM
One thing you might try is taking possession of a dragon (preferably a red or gold dragon) of any age, then either find a way to accelerate its aging process, or just wait for it to age naturally. Of course, the latter option would take awhile, but it'd work eventually.