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View Full Version : Ways to swap DC determining stats?



Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 03:39 PM
While I know this most likely dose not exsist, I am wondering if there is a feat, race, template, PrC or whatever else you can think of that can change the casting stat for your DCs thats not homebrew(3rd party, however, is welcome). The reason I ask is that I LOVE the idea of a fully cha-based, robe wearing(Or at least light armored) caster with the cleric list and the Dynamic Priest feat can ALMOST do that sans for DCs, which remain wisdom based. I don't like having low DCs on such a character since I would like to make him a necro and beyond animating most necromancy spells ARE save/DC reliant. Thus, I am looking for any methods, both from Wizards AND 3rd party content, that can allow you to swap the casting stat for your DCs. Any book, no matter how obscure, is welcome. The only thing that I am not looking for is homebrew....anything else is ok. Also, while a feat would be the ideal fix, I am fine with anything EXCEPT items. PrCs, races, templates, whatever. So long as it is something that is a part of my character rather then an item I don't care what it is so long as it can switch the casting stat for my DCs to charisma(So, no tainted sorcerer or tainted scholar won't do because that changes the casting stat for DCs(and all other purposes) to taint as appose to charisma and can be used by a cleric or other tier 1 class which can be just as good as a cleric at necromancy.

So, fellow gamers and holders of obscure 3.5e content, hit me with your best ideas to solve my issues here.

Kylarra
2011-01-25, 03:49 PM
The easiest suggestion is Generic Spellcaster (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/genericClasses.htm#spellcaster), although that may not be to your taste.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 03:59 PM
I actually love the generic spellcaster but I can gurintee it won't be excepted by any sensable DM. It's just that flat out overpowered. Also, as I remember to get rebuke you need to have wisdom as your casting stat, and if I am making a necro I want rebuke, end of story. However, if a DM would allow generic caster in the first place chances are he would also allow me to homebrew that cha-casters can be divine too and thus get rebuke as well since a DM who approved generic caster is likely approve basicly anything except maybe pun pun.

EDIT: By the SRD there is no feat which can give a generic caster rebuke. The feat I thought gave them Rebuke by RAW(though I assume not RAI.) can give them turn only and thus by RAW a generic caster can't get Rebuke. Thus, to get rebuke on a generic caster one would have to homebrew no matter what if going strictly by RAW, meaning that a cha-based generic caster COULD get rebuke if a homebrew feat was made but by RAW NOBODY can get rebuke. The reason? the feat is called Turn Undead while the cleric ability is written as Turn OR Rebuke Undead. Thus, again, by RAW if one takes the text litterally the feat is called TURN UNDEAD not Turn or rebuke undead and since the feat text says "as the cleric ability" by RAW it is refering to the feat name which is Turn Undead. This means a litteral reading of the feat makes it so no matter what aligenment you are you get Turn Undead...and there is thus no way at all to get Rebuke on a generic caster except homebrew or a very liberl reading of the Turn Undead feat.

Hazzardevil
2011-01-25, 04:00 PM
Theres a set of 3rd oarty feats in a book called hammer and helm, they let you change the attribute completly for sorcerers to dex, str, con or wis but you give up access to a certain spell school.

gbprime
2011-01-25, 04:04 PM
Dynamic Priest works best when applied to a Spirit Shaman. They're Wis/Cha for casting to start with, and the feat turns them into CHA all the way.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:08 PM
Yeah, but in the OP I stated I was looking to make a necromancer character who is a tier 1 and charisma based. Spirit Shamen fails on two qualifications. 1) It's not tier 1. 2) It's not and no matter how many PrCs and feats you take can never be a Necromancer. So while I like the idea, I thought it was cleare I wanted a cha-based cleric or other class equally as good at necromancy(Sorry sorcerer, you don't cut it as a necro and the same goes for a wizard when it comes to necromancy.). I apologize if the OC was unclear on that.

cd4
2011-01-25, 04:17 PM
Well it is not perfect but look at the Geomancer from complete divine.

You still prepare your spells normally but can mix and match spell parameters when casting the spell. It allows you to cast arcane in armour with no failure and use cha for divine spells.

However you need to have both arcane and divine spells at 2nd level to enter and it only advances 1 class per level and you need 10 levels to change things on 9th level spells. It could help but might not.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:20 PM
Never knew of the Geomancer but depending on the prereqs it could work in a game which starts at a very high level. However, in low level games it's going to mean I am a crappy necro since anything with arcane casting thats not a dread necromancer sucks at necromancy. Likewise, Geomancer dose not advance rebuke and while I know control/command undead can fill in for rebuke I rather like not having to waste spell slots on multible castings of command undead but I can suck it up and deal with it though it will be a pain in the ***. Perhaps take Dread Necromancer as my arcane class? It's cha based and at low levels is a meh necromancer but it's better then a sorc for necromancy and once I get into the class I can just advance cleric casting instead...so, again, might work for a high level game but getting to the class will be a pain for somebody trying to be a necromancer and not just a normal, plane old caster.

gbprime
2011-01-25, 04:25 PM
Spirit Shamen fails on two qualifications. 1) It's not tier 1.

Granted.


2) It's not and no matter how many PrCs and feats you take can never be a Necromancer.

Not exactly. Remember, a spirit shaman is a spontaneous caster whose spells known is equal to her entire spell list. So all you need to do is add cleric domains. And a single level in cleric or cloistered cleric will add two necro-themed domains plus rebuke undead that can be used to power things. That results in a thin necro-specific spell list and rebukes that are better at powering things instead of ordering undead around, but adds the Chastise Spirits and other abilities for a unique take on the necromancer motif.

It's not for every occasion, but it is viable.

Jayabalard
2011-01-25, 04:28 PM
1) It's not tier 1.This seems like a really odd requirement; out of curiosity, why is this important? I mean, if your goal is to be a powerful necromancer, you don't really need to be able to do absolutely everything, including be better than other classes at the things that they specialize in... you just need to be able to do necromancy thingies, which means that t2 or even t3 should be fine.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:35 PM
It's required because I want to be a tier 1, cha-based Necromancer. Period. If it seems odd to you thats fine, but it's just something I've wanted and I have not fiound any way to achieve sans homebrew which is not something that all DMs like. If you think my quest is pointless thats fine but it is important to me and thus no matter how pointless it may be I will contine to search for an answer anyway because it's better to keep hunting then to just give up as just like in an actual game of D&D even the most hopeless of situations can end in your favor with enough tenasity and a bit of luck. Thus just giving up on my "pointless" quest means I would never get the sollution I seek and even a 1% chance is better then a 0% one in this kind of situation.(Though the same dose NOT apply to things in which the concequences for going for that 1% chance would be bad.)

gbprime
2011-01-25, 04:46 PM
Nobody said it was pointless, we're just wondering why the T1 requirement.

Spirit Shaman with a cleric dip would give you CHA casting, divine metamagic, necro spells, spirit fu, and a full arsenal of druid magic. And the druid magic/bonus domains thing opens up odd, not-usually-seen options for said Necromancer, such as Walker in the Waste (which features becoming a Dry Lich at level 10).

Just saying. =)

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 04:54 PM
Spirit Shamen dose not work. I said why in my other post and I will reitterate here. Druid list=/= necromancer. Cleric List= Necromancer. I know you said the cleric dip can help but the cleric is STILL a WAY better necromancer then I will ever be as a spirit shamen...that and I hate nature-based classes and hate the druid list...so chances of me using anything related to druids or that uses the druid list is slim unless it's a blighter. However, thankfully I have decided that the best sollution would be to try and get generic caster approved. Yeah, it's overpowered...but in this situation it's the only option. As for rebuke, I stated above that by RAW a generic caster can't ever get it, which gives me a good excuse to let in some homebrew. However, if there are any other ways I am all ears.

As for the tier 1 requirement, It's really not that nessicary since if I want a tier 1 class I can just use leadership and get a tier 1 cohort. What IS nessicary however is tier 2 at the least(since tier 3 has the Dread Necro) and necromancy equal to a cleric. Those are the requirements I am looking for.

However, perhaps at this rate it's better to forget being a Necromancer all togther and just be an artificer who's a Dr. Frankenstine type who uses technology/magic items rather then actual spells to animate the dead since an artificer dose not care what his stats are so long as he has XP and gold. Likewise I could just play a Dynamic Priest cleric, get as much taint as posible, go into tainted sorcerer and make my taint score dictate my DCs meaning my mental stats mean nothing sans for RP.

Actually, being a Cloistered Cleric/Tainted Sorcerer may not be all that bad. Themeaticly it works and if I am a high cha-character I can get a lot of taint rather easily by becomming a Necropolitian which makes negative energy spells into heals for me. Yeah, at lower levels I can't do much non-animating/offensive necromancy but with the Divine magician ACF I can take all the no-save Necromancer spells from the wiz/sorc list like shivering touch(and it's lesser) cousin, Avasculate ect..and focus more on being a support character with a little bit of necromancy and then once I get enough taint be as good a necro as any other cleric...that also makes some nice RP. A Dynamic Priest who desires more power then his wisdom score allowes him gose down a dark path, embracing the evil force that is the taint to become even stronger then those high wis clerics and all their fancy offensive spells.

*.*.*.*
2011-01-25, 05:06 PM
In Bastards and Bloodlines by Green Ronin, there is the feat called Lost Tradition. It does exactly what you asked

gbprime
2011-01-25, 05:13 PM
that and I hate nature-based classes and hate the druid list...

Okay, didn't mean to offend. Just trying to think (way) outside the box, and I thought the ability to summon skeletal or zombified natures allies would fit.

Jayabalard
2011-01-25, 05:17 PM
It's required because I want to be a tier 1, cha-based Necromancer. Period. If it seems odd to you thats fine, but it's just something I've wanted and I have not fiound any way to achieve sans homebrew which is not something that all DMs like. If you think my quest is pointless thats fine but it is important to me and thus no matter how pointless it may be I will contine to search for an answer anyway because it's better to keep hunting then to just give up as just like in an actual game of D&D even the most hopeless of situations can end in your favor with enough tenasity and a bit of luck. Thus just giving up on my "pointless" quest means I would never get the sollution I seek and even a 1% chance is better then a 0% one in this kind of situation.(Though the same dose NOT apply to things in which the concequences for going for that 1% chance would be bad.)I'm not sure why you're being so defensive... it's just a question.

If you want to be T1, your options are: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer, Erudite. Anything else is not T1. Since none of them are both cha based casters and have the cleric spell list, I think the answer is "it doesn't exist, unless there's a feat to switch the cleric's casting".

So I guess it hangs on whether you allow that 3rd party feat or not.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 05:49 PM
I'm sorry for being sounding defensive as that was not my intent. All of your ideas are viable but not what I was exactly looking for. I was frustrated at the hopelessness of the situation and that came out in my posts. I am sorry for sounding the way I did and I was not angry at any of you but rather the whole situation.

That feat, however, is a godsend and the answer to all my questions. The only issue is at this point the general public opinion on Green Ronin? If they are considered a reputable company which most people would not question content from then that's just what I need. However, I personally know that at least one book they produced, The Secret Collage of Necromancy, which I own, is known for poorly conceived spells and a downright broken necromancer class. Thus, if their other works are of the same quality and they thus have a reputation as a bad source of 3rd party content(as D&D wiki has a reputation for being a bad source of homebrew) then I am not 100% sure it will work out in all cases but it's still worth a shot.

If not, then I am more or less sold on the idea of using Tainted Sorcerer as a backup since it doesn't matter WHAT your ability scores are if your DCs are based on your taint. Likewise, it's thematically appropriate due to necromancy and the taint both being associated with evil.

Arutema
2011-01-25, 05:59 PM
Is Pathfinder material permitted?

If so, you can just play an Oracle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/oracle) for full Cha-based cleric casting, then take the Bones mystery for extra necromancy.

Maho-Tsukai
2011-01-25, 06:04 PM
Pathfinder =/= 3.5e. This is solely for 3.5e. However, I already have a 3rd party solution and for people who hate 3rd party or Green Ronin has a bad reputation then I have an answer to my problems from wizards which was not my ideal fix but good enough for me to stand. If your wondering what that is it's playing a cloistered cleric with Dynamic Priest and using divine magician to get a few no-save necromancy spells so I can still feel like a necromancer despite not being able to use anything with a save and during those low levels building up a good enough taint score to go into tainted sorcerer which sets my casting stat to my taint score meaning I could have 1 wisdom and I would still have high DCs as long as my taint score was high and Necromancy + Taint makes for good RP anyway.

So, yeah, cha-focused people can't be tier 1 normally, but when you go to the dark side and become tainted you could have strength be your highest stat and still be an awesome spellcaster....the only thing you give up is your sanity and humanity...but if your an evil necromancer since when did you care about those things to began with?

Analytica
2011-01-25, 08:30 PM
It isn't really what you want, I guess, but technically you might be able to do a Dread Necromancer/Rainbow Servant. You could probably fluff it as some kind of Aztec sacrificial priest-necromancer. The FAQ states that, as their capstone, all cleric spells are added to your spell list, which means the DN can cast them all spontaneously. Some say that since under RAW, text trumps table, Rainbow Servant gives full casting. I say that this is just abusing a typo, but there was no errata IIRC, so it can be argued to be RAW though hardly RAI. You cast spontaneously, using CHA, from the cleric list, the DN list, and four specified domains. More can be added using Arcane Disciple. You must be nongood, nonevil, and nonchaotic, but it works. If you want more power, you could actually add some Sand Shaper to get another set of 43 or so spells. No Rebuking, however, though you can add that in - I think Sacred Exorcist and Paragnostic Apostle might work for this purpose.

Hazzardevil
2011-01-26, 04:41 PM
Theres a list of homebrew fats on teh forum somewhere. I'll see if I can find them.