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Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-27, 01:32 PM
I'm currently in the process of making a character that utilizes the Power Attack feat tree. I generally go for characters that use Combat Expertise, so I had a couple of questions.

1) Which do you think is better (Stone Power or Power Attack) and why?

2) Are there any Power Attack feats you think are a must?

3) Does Stone Power still count as Power Attack for the purpose of Elusive Target?

Thanks

Elfin
2011-01-27, 01:38 PM
(1) Power Attack is almost always much more useful than Stone Power - though the latter is still good for qualifying for Shards of Granite.

(2) Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are both amazing, and Battle Jump is excellent too - and it's not a feat, for for extra damage on a charger, get a Valorous weapon.

(3) No, I don't think so.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-27, 03:06 PM
(1) Power Attack is almost always much more useful than Stone Power - though the latter is still good for qualifying for Shards of Granite.

(2) Leap Attack and Shock Trooper are both amazing, and Battle Jump is excellent too - and it's not a feat, for for extra damage on a charger, get a Valorous weapon.

(3) No, I don't think so.

I've never heard of Shards of Granite, Battle Jump or Valorous Weapon. Can you tell me where those are from?

Last Laugh
2011-01-27, 03:21 PM
I can comment on Shards of Granite. It's a tactical feat from ToB pg 36

It allows you to bypass hardness of objects if you stone power. (a good substitute for a key)
Also damage reduction of Creatures, and Critical are easier to land. (these are all if you stone power for at least -5)

Elfin
2011-01-27, 03:27 PM
Battle Jump and the Valorous enhancement are both from Unapproachable East - it's a FR sourcebook.

Cieyrin
2011-01-27, 03:30 PM
I've never heard of Shards of Granite, Battle Jump or Valorous Weapon. Can you tell me where those are from?

Battle Jump is a Faerun regional feat that lets you jump down on an enemy for double damage on a charge. Valorous is a weapon enhancement that does double damage on a charge. +1 enhancement, I believe.

Battle Jump is trickier to get these days since the PGtF nerf, as it's exclusive to the Taer, so if you want it now, you gotta be a smelly monkey or be raised in the area, which doesn't seem likely.

EDIT: semi-ninja'd

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-27, 07:25 PM
Battle Jump and the Valorous enhancement are both from Unapproachable East - it's a FR sourcebook.

I hate to ask this, but I've been poking around UE. Do you have a page number?

AslanCross
2011-01-27, 07:42 PM
Stone Power's most common use is providing extra HP for Crusaders so that they can tank even harder.

Power Attack's most common use is killing stuff dead and allowing you to qualify for new and improved ways to kill stuff dead.

If you must choose, take Power Attack. If you're a crusader and have feat space for both, take both.

Endarire
2011-01-27, 09:07 PM
Hood (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872838/Little_Red_Raiding_Hood_A_Tale_of_38_Guide_to_the_ 35_Dragoon) can answer some of your questions.

Elfin
2011-01-27, 10:23 PM
I hate to ask this, but I've been poking around UE. Do you have a page number?

I don't, actually - it's a friend who actually owns the book. :smallredface:

But the valorous enhancement is in the magical items section of the book- it's one of only a couple weapon enhancements - and Battle Jump is in the feats section, which shouldn't be too hard to find, as the feats are organized alphabetically.

Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-27, 11:27 PM
I hate to ask this, but I've been poking around UE. Do you have a page number?

Your DM to the RESCUE!!!

Battle Jump is page 42, and Valourous is page 54.

Dungeon Master . . . AWAAAAAAAAAAAY!!!

Runestar
2011-01-28, 02:39 AM
I feel that stone power is really only useful when used in tandem with shards of granite, against enemies with dr you wouldn't be able to overcome anyways. This way, the ability to ignore dr more than offsets the loss of damage from power attack.

For instance, the tarrasque has dr15/epic. Ignoring it would mean I effectively dealt an extra 5 damage per hit compared to the same fighter who PA'ed for 5 (+10 damage with a 2-handed weapon).

I don't really find the temp hp all that significant at mid-higher lvs.

AslanCross
2011-01-28, 02:57 AM
It synergizes great with the Crusader damage pool. You can blunt the edge of the delayed damage as it comes in. That said, when you start getting beaned for 45 damage per swing...

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-28, 09:30 AM
Alright, cool. Thanks for all the advice.
It seems I have a series of secondary queries:

1) Considering the pay-off in hit for Power Attack/Stone Power, what can I do to easily increase my hit?

2) The whole reason I was going for Syone Power was to reduce the incoming damage because my AC (even with +6 armor, the best I can get right now) is brutally low, due to paying of two-4 penalties (Reckless Offensive and Punishing Stance) so are there better and easier wayts to get:
a) Higher AC
b) Temporary Hit Points
c) DR

Thanks

Last Laugh
2011-01-28, 09:47 AM
Alright, cool. Thanks for all the advice.
It seems I have a series of secondary queries:

1) Considering the pay-off in hit for Power Attack/Stone Power, what can I do to easily increase my hit?

2) The whole reason I was going for Syone Power was to reduce the incoming damage because my AC (even with +6 armor, the best I can get right now) is brutally low, due to paying of two-4 penalties (Reckless Offensive and Punishing Stance) so are there better and easier wayts to get:
a) Higher AC
b) Temporary Hit Points
c) DR

Thanks
I'm gonna need to know some character info for this one.

cheap ways to get health back can be good. (wand of CLW)
Law Devotion from cchampion provides a boost to AC or hit. pg 61
Miss Chance is more powerful than Armor usually
Binder 1 with Improved bind vestige would give you Dahlver-Nar, giving you +1/2 your Con --> natural armor. and allows you to split damage with a willing target. (unwilling targets get a save)

Sir_Chivalry
2011-01-28, 10:31 AM
Alright, cool. Thanks for all the advice.
It seems I have a series of secondary queries:

1) Considering the pay-off in hit for Power Attack/Stone Power, what can I do to easily increase my hit?

2) The whole reason I was going for Syone Power was to reduce the incoming damage because my AC (even with +6 armor, the best I can get right now) is brutally low, due to paying of two-4 penalties (Reckless Offensive and Punishing Stance) so are there better and easier wayts to get:
a) Higher AC
b) Temporary Hit Points
c) DR

Thanks

Best way to reduce the penalty to hit is to make a charger with Shock Trooper, so that the penalty goes to your AC instead. Cause eventually AC is an all of nothing prospect.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-28, 10:42 AM
I'm gonna need to know some character info for this one.

cheap ways to get health back can be good. (wand of CLW)
Law Devotion from cchampion provides a boost to AC or hit. pg 61
Miss Chance is more powerful than Armor usually
Binder 1 with Improved bind vestige would give you Dahlver-Nar, giving you +1/2 your Con --> natural armor. and allows you to split damage with a willing target. (unwilling targets get a save)

The character currently is a Lesser Steam Para-Genasi (Dragon Magazine) Warblade 1/Factotum 2/ Fighter 1. He has a Charisma of 6, so UMD for the wand and Binder are both iffy at best, though that Vestige does sound pretty awesome. I'll look into Law Devotion, because his alignment hasn't been established yet, though I was going True Neutral.
Both the Binder and Law Devotion become an issue considering his complete hatred of all things religious. He despises Outsiders, Gods, Clerics, Paladins, etc.


Best way to reduce the penalty to hit is to make a charger with Shock Trooper, so that the penalty goes to your AC instead. Cause eventually AC is an all of nothing prospect.

Agreed, but then I need to worry about the variety of ways a charge can be botched. Shock Trooper is a good call, though, and something I was looking into for the level 9 feat as is.

Person_Man
2011-01-28, 11:05 AM
I'm currently in the process of making a character that utilizes the Power Attack feat tree. I generally go for characters that use Combat Expertise, so I had a couple of questions.

1) Which do you think is better (Stone Power or Power Attack) and why?

2) Are there any Power Attack feats you think are a must?

3) Does Stone Power still count as Power Attack for the purpose of Elusive Target?

Thanks


1) Stone Power is for builds that want to absorb damage (presumably so that your allies do not). In particular, Knights and Crusaders. It is most effective at ECL 1-5ish, especially when combined with DR, vampiric healing, fast healing, etc. After ECL 5 it stops scaling, and tends not to be very useful compared to other sources of hit points.

Power Attack is for dealing massive damage. If you kill your enemies before they act, then you don't need strong defenses. (Though this has metagame problems - your DM will generally want to make combat interesting regardless of how much damage you deal per round, and so it's generally best not to over optimize your damage output). It works well with pretty much any full BAB, and is pretty much a requirement for low Tier melee classes that want to be useful in some way, like Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians. It is most effective at ECL 6 or higher, when various feat combos start to kick in.

2) Power Attack Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087). Melee Combo Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026).

3) Stone Power counts as Power Attack for the purpose of qualifying for any feat. However, it does not explicitly count as Power Attack for triggering feats which depend on it. For example, you could use Stone Power to qualify for Elusive Target, Knockback, or Shock Trooper, but you couldn't necessarily activate those feats with Stone Power. However, this is debatable, and I would think that doing so would be a reasonable rule regardless.

Ernir
2011-01-28, 11:29 AM
What really annoys me about Stone Power is that
It has a maximum penalty cap of -5 (and even a maximum on the temp HP too, leaving no wiggle room). No "Stone Power for full!" when you meet some brute with preposterously low AC and high damage output. It doesn't benefit from all the stuff you can use to improve your PA ratio (Leap Attack and company).


b) Temporary Hit Points

Check out the Amulet of Tears in the Magic Item Compendium, if you have access to it. A very convenient and cheap source of Temp HP.

The Vampire Torc from the same book can allow you to heal yourself with your massive damage. Underused item, IMO.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-28, 12:58 PM
1) Stone Power is for builds that want to absorb damage (presumably so that your allies do not). In particular, Knights and Crusaders. It is most effective at ECL 1-5ish, especially when combined with DR, vampiric healing, fast healing, etc. After ECL 5 it stops scaling, and tends not to be very useful compared to other sources of hit points.

Power Attack is for dealing massive damage. If you kill your enemies before they act, then you don't need strong defenses. (Though this has metagame problems - your DM will generally want to make combat interesting regardless of how much damage you deal per round, and so it's generally best not to over optimize your damage output). It works well with pretty much any full BAB, and is pretty much a requirement for low Tier melee classes that want to be useful in some way, like Fighters, Paladins, and Barbarians. It is most effective at ECL 6 or higher, when various feat combos start to kick in.

2) Power Attack Optimization (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7165087). Melee Combo Guide (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=127026).

3) Stone Power counts as Power Attack for the purpose of qualifying for any feat. However, it does not explicitly count as Power Attack for triggering feats which depend on it. For example, you could use Stone Power to qualify for Elusive Target, Knockback, or Shock Trooper, but you couldn't necessarily activate those feats with Stone Power. However, this is debatable, and I would think that doing so would be a reasonable rule regardless.

I feel silly having to ask this, but I never play the PA/Charging character; why is Pounce or Free Movement so important to the build?

I would argue that Stone Power, if applicable to Elusive Target, is applicable to the use of Shock Trooper, but that is up to my DM (speak of the devil and he shall appear).

Ernir
2011-01-28, 01:14 PM
I feel silly having to ask this, but I never play the PA/Charging character; why is Pounce or Free Movement so important to the build?

Tactics.

Full attacks are the melee'ers way of contributing to combat, so you need to be in a position to deliver one as often as possible. Which means you're going to need ways to get around in a way that doesn't cost you your only move action.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-28, 01:18 PM
Tactics.

Full attacks are the melee'ers way of contributing to combat, so you need to be in a position to deliver one as often as possible. Which means you're going to need ways to get around in a way that doesn't cost you your only move action.

Okay, I was leaning that way but didn't want to sound stupid by pretending to know something I didn't.
Another newbie question on the side, Improved Toughness doesn't count as Toughness for feat selection, does it?

2xMachina
2011-01-28, 01:31 PM
Unfortunately, it does not say it counts for Toughness (unlike Stone Power/Desert Wind Dodge, etc)

But try asking your DM for leniency, cause Toughness is terribad.

Person_Man
2011-01-28, 02:13 PM
I feel silly having to ask this, but I never play the PA/Charging character; why is Pounce or Free Movement so important to the build?

Although Pounce and/or free movement (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103358) tend to get lumped together (you can blame me personally for this lack of distinction) they are actually two very different things.

Pounce is the ability to make a full attack at the end of a Charge. It is important for combos triggered by a Charge. More specifically, most (but not all) Power Attack combos require a Charge, such as Shock Trooper, Leap Attack, Spirited Charge, etc. It's also important for Ride By Attack, a few Maneuvers, and a few other things. A build using a Charge combo generally wants to Charge every round Thus, in order to make a full attack every round, you need Pounce. (This includes the Surprise Round and when you are Staggered, Disabled, or otherwise limited to a Standard Action, because the Charge rules include a specific exception). If you do not have Pounce, you are generally limited to only 1 attack per round plus whatever you get from attacks of opportunity, which severely limits the use and effectiveness of Charge related combos.

Free movement has many possible uses. Assuming you don't need Charge to trigger a combo, it helps ensure that you can use your Full Round Action to make a full attack every turn. It allows for a far greater range of tactical movement. For example, it allows a defensive melee build to always stand between the enemies and his friends without giving up his full attacks. It allows lockdown builds to stay on top of their targets without giving up full attacks. It can trigger Skirmish without giving up your full round action. In some cases (Hustle, Celerity) it can be used to trigger Move Actions other then movement, like Demoralize or Goad.

But while it has many uses and in general compliments Pounce, free movement generally cannot be used to give you a full attack with a Charge combo. So what form of Pounce and/or free movement you need/want, if any, depends on your specific build.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-28, 03:52 PM
I seem to be asking allot of follow up question and for that I appologize. unfortunately, here's another one:

With a Cha of 6, UMD is going to be pretty difficult (ie: for wands in a wand chamber). So, two questions:

1) How can I easily raise my UMD

2) What are the best spells/wands to have in a wand chamber for
a) Extra Attacks
b) Extra Damage
c) Turning attacks into Touch Attacks

Thanks again

Hammerhead
2011-01-28, 03:59 PM
Generally, dropping a level into a class with a broad spell list is the most efficient way to gain reliable wand access. You could probably also throw lots of money into masterwork tools and custom +UMD magic items.

For easy sources of extra attacks and touch attack options, Swift Haste and Wraithstrike come to mind, but you can burn through those charges pretty quickly. Things like Girallon's Blessing or polymorph could get extra attacks and Flame Blade, Ice Axe or Dessicating Blade could generate touch attacks, but those kind of diverge from the concept.

Tibbaerrohwen
2011-01-28, 04:23 PM
Generally, dropping a level into a class with a broad spell list is the most efficient way to gain reliable wand access. You could probably also throw lots of money into masterwork tools and custom +UMD magic items.

For easy sources of extra attacks and touch attack options, Swift Haste and Wraithstrike come to mind, but you can burn through those charges pretty quickly. Things like Girallon's Blessing or polymorph could get extra attacks and Flame Blade, Ice Axe or Dessicating Blade could generate touch attacks, but those kind of diverge from the concept.

Sounds like Wraithstrike and Snake's Swiftness are pretty much the spells I'm looking for. Are there magical items that could cast wraithstrike for me a certain amount of times per day (wands and potions excluded)?