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druid91
2011-01-27, 08:25 PM
Seriously, they can't just make the good monsters fancy skeletons with an aura... OH NO that would make using it less revolting...


Why must nearly every undead creature worth using as more than a mook absolutely disgusting?

How am I supposed to get my clean evil?

Scarlet-Devil
2011-01-27, 08:29 PM
Well, vampires typically aren't (in fact the modern vampire is quite the opposite)...

Edit: Although arguably even modern vampires are still quite unnatractive, being pale, pulseless, and deathly cold (not to mention the fact that they sustain themselves with the blood of sentients) :smallconfused:.

Xuc Xac
2011-01-27, 08:31 PM
Mummies are basically leather bags of potpourri. They don't have to be old and dusty. If they're dripping with gore, then you made them incorrectly.

druid91
2011-01-27, 08:36 PM
Yes most of the basic stuff in the monster manual can be Ok, Once you get into the splat-books however... You get some plain freakish stuff.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-27, 08:37 PM
Well, bodies rot. Undead are often made from bodies and, depending on type, rot themselves. Of course, you can give all your zombies rings of gentle repose, but that gets expensive fast. And even a fresh dead body is pretty creepy, blood pools you know, and they don't have the natural movements we associate with living beings. Blinking, breathing, things like that. You know how creepy a of humans are in video games when they try to be 'realistic'? Imagine that, in real life.

:smallfrown:
:smalleek:
:eek:

druid91
2011-01-27, 08:40 PM
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the freakish things with six arms three legs and no apparent head....

That sort of thing.

Simple shabby zombies isn't what I mean.

Marillion
2011-01-27, 08:40 PM
Why must nearly every undead creature worth using as more than a mook absolutely disgusting?

Emphasis mine. An undead creature is not alive; the necromancer has given them enough life-energy to cruelly force the remains of the deceased creature (which may have been lying in the ground rotting away for years) into a mocking semblance of life, enough to make it capable of movement, but not enough to stave off or reverse the decomposition process. Why should he invest such power in the creature? It cannot feel, nor did he raise it for its delightful company - he raised it for one specific purpose, a purpose that does not require a pleasant countenance.

It isn't muscle, blood, and bone that's animating the creature; it's magic. And magic is a valuable resource to be invested wisely in one's creations.

EDIT:
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the freakish things with six arms three legs and no apparent head....

That sort of thing.

Simple shabby zombies isn't what I mean.

Many of my points still stand. The necromancer who created this thing didn't create it for its charming personality; he created it to kill things. If it doesn't need a head to do that, why give it one?

AslanCross
2011-01-27, 08:41 PM
Given that undeath is usually associated with plague, decay, and the inherent unpleasantness of death itself, I think the trope is often justified. The common theme behind undeath is that it's unnatural at best and morally wrong at worst.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-27, 08:53 PM
Because humanity in general has a death taboo.

Ways to get around having rotting bodies usually include flensing them prior to reanimation. So you'd have either Skeletons or Bone Creatures.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-27, 08:58 PM
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the freakish things with six arms three legs and no apparent head....

That sort of thing.

Simple shabby zombies isn't what I mean.
Ah. Well, I guess necromancers, if they are the creators of the undead mind, like to experiment. I mean, if you have already broken all moral mores by desecrating a tomb and bringing a creature to a hideous, lurching, flawed facsimile of life, why stop there? Might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb.

Vknight
2011-01-27, 08:59 PM
Yeah it is just something that is disturbing for most.

AslanCross
2011-01-27, 09:09 PM
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the freakish things with six arms three legs and no apparent head....


Which monster is this? :smalleek:

The freakish ones I know of:
Bone-dissolving, tentacled horrors (Bonedrinker)
Giant-sized humanoids with 20-foot long, spearing claws (Boneclaw)
40-foot hounds made of animated corpses (Charnel Hound)
House-sized piles of bodies that trample everything in their way (Necronaut)
20-foot giants with rats crawling under their skin (Plague Spewer)
Giant slugs made out of blood (....I forget the name, it's in Heroes of Horror)
Giant, stillborn god-fetuses (Atropal)
Stubborn, undying remnants of stillborn god-fetuses (Atropal Scion)
Horrific, decaying angel-like forms that slough ooze and flesh into a decaying pool around them (Angel of Decay)

EDIT: Oh yeah, the Mohrg: Skeleton with swollen intestines that it uses to feel you up and paralyze you.

The Necrosis Carnex as well: A misshapen patchwork of indeterminate limbs and flesh held together by bolted-on iron bands and used as a reservoir of negative energy.

KillianHawkeye
2011-01-27, 09:09 PM
There are plenty of varieties of skeletal undead. Just don't use the disgusting ones if you don't like them. :smallconfused:

druid91
2011-01-27, 09:17 PM
Which monster is this? :smalleek:

The freakish ones I know of:
Bone-dissolving, tentacled horrors (Bonedrinker)
Giant-sized humanoids with 20-foot long, spearing claws (Boneclaw)
40-foot hounds made of animated corpses (Charnel Hound)
House-sized piles of bodies that trample everything in their way (Necronaut)
20-foot giants with rats crawling under their skin (Plague Spewer)
Giant slugs made out of blood (....I forget the name, it's in Heroes of Horror)
Giant, stillborn god-fetuses (Atropal)
Stubborn, undying remnants of stillborn god-fetuses (Atropal Scion)
Horrific, decaying angel-like forms that slough ooze and flesh into a decaying pool around them (Angel of Decay)

EDIT: Oh yeah, the Mohrg: Skeleton with swollen intestines that it uses to feel you up and paralyze you.

The Necrosis Carnex as well: A misshapen patchwork of indeterminate limbs and flesh held together by bolted-on iron bands and used as a reservoir of negative energy.
That last one. Just the weird pile of limbs affect, Humanoids are only meant to have there limbs put on in a certain manner!

AslanCross
2011-01-27, 09:21 PM
I don't even think the necrosis carnex is vaguely humanoid in any way.

Psyren
2011-01-27, 09:25 PM
Why must nearly every undead creature worth using as more than a mook absolutely disgusting?

How am I supposed to get my clean evil?

Master of Shrouds

/thread

Blackfang108
2011-01-27, 09:26 PM
I don't even think the necrosis carnex is vaguely humanoid in any way.

It's made of people!(tm)

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-27, 09:27 PM
That last one. Just the weird pile of limbs affect, Humanoids are only meant to have there limbs put on in a certain manner!

Mr. Fleshwarper would like to speak with you.

druid91
2011-01-27, 09:38 PM
Mr. Fleshwarper would like to speak with you.

And my good friend and associate Mr. Animated pile of black sand would like to give him a hug.:smalltongue:

Blackfang108
2011-01-27, 09:54 PM
How am I supposed to get my clean evil?

Working Plumbing?

Grommen
2011-01-27, 10:53 PM
Because good is good and Evil....Is'nt. --The Tick--

Common man, your digging up grandma, bringing her back to some type of life. I mean why stop their, it's not like they need to eat, or breathe. They don't feel pain, so why not toss a few more arms on. Who needs a head if you don't even need to think?

Why do you think you need a "Pocket full of Posies" when your in the middle of a plague?

It keeps the stink down! :smallbiggrin:

Necromancy is, in my opinion, the very heart of evil, nasty, and disgusting. If your character does not want to be that "freekish" I would suggest a new line of work. Say Summoning, or Golem crafting (other than Flesh golems but hay everyone needs a hobby).

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 02:58 AM
I hate how every one thinks every undead is evil. Thier are actually good aligned undead. Necromacy is only evil when you bring an evil creature into the world. Have a check at the "Tome of Necromancy" by "Frank & K".

Also thier are tonnes of undead which aren't disgusting.

Elric VIII
2011-01-28, 03:10 AM
Well, vampires typically aren't (in fact the modern vampire is quite the opposite)...

Edit: Although arguably even modern vampires are still quite unnatractive, being pale, pulseless, and deathly cold (not to mention the fact that they sustain themselves with the blood of sentients) :smallconfused:.

How could they be unattractive? They sparkle in daylight.


Many of my points still stand. The necromancer who created this thing didn't create it for its charming personality; he created it to kill things. If it doesn't need a head to do that, why give it one?

I sometimes like to disguise my undead, it's hard to wear a helmet without a head. I see the point you're driving at, though... BRAIIIIIINS!:smallbiggrin:


Ways to get around having rotting bodies usually include flensing them prior to reanimation. So you'd have either Skeletons or Bone Creatures.

I became a Lich once (I don't recommend it, that +4LA is murder) and I peiodically treated my flesh with mild acid (post undeath) to cauterize it and remove the scent of decay.


I hate how every one thinks every undead is evil. Thier are actually good aligned undead. Necromacy is only evil when you bring an evil creature into the world. Have a check at the "Tome of Necromancy" by "Frank & K".

Also thier are tonnes of undead which aren't disgusting.

I'm playing a LN necro cleric that channels Cure spells and uses undead for good. There's a good article in Dragon 298 called "Shades of Death" that describes the motivations of all necromancer alignments, including CG, NG, and LG.

golentan
2011-01-28, 03:35 AM
Why must you insist that such things are disgusting. Heck, your species isn't much to talk of either, human.

It smells bad because it isn't sufficiently preserved. It looks mismatched because it's a mishmash of pieces attached together for best function, since nature was not obliging enough to provide a form suitable to the task at hand to begin with. And it's not humanoid because the humanoid form is absolutely retarded for most tasks.

You want a necromancer who doesn't dabble in the (physically) disgusting, all it takes is a little craftsmanship by the way. For most constructs, bone is nicer than flesh being both more permanent and less prone to janitorial complications. A nice soak in a lye bath gives you clean bright bone, which you can get to a mirror finish with a little sandpaper. For hybridization tasks or projects where that musculature is essential, one should always bear in mind that proper embalming practices are never an "optional extra," and a clean stitch is a sturdy stitch. In addition, the addition of metal, ceramic, or bone plating often contributes to a sterile work environment without hindering most projects in their day to day activities.

Callista
2011-01-28, 03:54 AM
Necromancy does harness negative energy--which is inherently harmful to life. Unlike, for example, fire, which can be used both to support life and to destroy it, negative energy exists simply to destroy life and drives undead to do the same. It's death energy, basically. And what one thing do we come pre-programmed to avoid, most of all? Death. No wonder anything made with negative energy is fundamentally creepy. It's our survival instincts coming out.

BTW: Deathless can be disgusting, too; specifically, the Crypt Warden, which is a soul that comes back from the afterlife to animate its (usually rotting or skeletal) body when a tomb is disturbed. Good-aligned, animated by positive energy... I imagine it as a body that's alive--truly alive, not just a mockery of life--because the soul decrees it, but that has absolutely no right to be alive because it's in such bad shape. Almost scarier than negative-energy undead, really, especially if you find yourself trying to fight one. Here's an enemy that will not give up... even though it's supposed to be dead... is so dedicated to its mission that death is a minor inconvenience. And it's not even acting in self-interest, like undead do; it doesn't have that weakness. You can't threaten it and you can't make it back down. After all, if outright dying didn't stop them from doing their duty, what's to say you'll be any more successful at it?

Ravens_cry
2011-01-28, 04:29 AM
Necromancy does harness negative energy--which is inherently harmful to life. Unlike, for example, fire, which can be used both to support life and to destroy it, negative energy exists simply to destroy life and drives undead to do the same. It's death energy, basically. And what one thing do we come pre-programmed to avoid, most of all? Death. No wonder anything made with negative energy is fundamentally creepy. It's our survival instincts coming out.
I would not call it "Death energy". After all, our elan vital, our life force we call 'positive energy' is just as deadly to undead as 'negative energy' is to us.
I surmise the the rot and decay, the craving for flesh and blood, the thirst for destruction, seen in many undead comes from the incompatibility of Positive Energy empowered life with this Negative Energy. There may be life on other planes that is just as living as we are, just driven by this alternate vital force.

golentan
2011-01-28, 04:31 AM
Oh Callista you flatterer you. :smallredface:

Though I'm not sure I agree with much of what you say. The idea of something as a philosophical threat is rarely enough to motivate people to the sort of instinctive revulsion you see for necromantic tinkerings. And similarly, Death (the abstraction) is less terrifying for most than death (the process), usually because little-d involves direct negative stimuli in the form of pain.

Not that I'd know. It's not like I spend hours thinking about this sort of stuff or interviewing people I know. Because *haha* that would be creepy. :smallbiggrin::smallsigh::smallfrown:

Mr.Christie
2011-01-28, 04:40 AM
It's not the undead that's disgusting, its the minds of the people who make all of the disgusting undead that are disgusting.

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 05:58 AM
Some undead are disgusting. But then again many undead are less disgusting then thier living counter parts.
Which do you prefer:
A cockroach covered in disease, it vomits on everything to keep itself clean, and when you step on it a goo comes out which makes you feel like your going to vomit
or
A clean & preserved skeletal warrior that never gets sick, doesn't create waste, and if it is attacked thier is no blood or guts.

IMHO undead are just the living powered by negative energy instead of positive. In my campaign thier is even a race that are completly undead, I tell you why. Because Negative energy powers them in the exact way positive energy powers the living. If they die you can animate them as Living Zombies with Positive energy.

Czin
2011-01-28, 06:05 AM
I hate how every one thinks every undead is evil. Thier are actually good aligned undead. Necromacy is only evil when you bring an evil creature into the world. Have a check at the "Tome of Necromancy" by "Frank & K".

Also thier are tonnes of undead which aren't disgusting.

The number of undead creatures with an often, usually, or always good alignment (of any kind) throughout all of 3.Xe can be counted on one hand. :smallwink:

Eldan
2011-01-28, 06:13 AM
Bah.

Corpses aren't disgusting. They are fascinating.

Unless you have to cleanly prepare muscles. After you spend a few hours peeling all the fasciae of a few square inches with a pair of tweezers, the fascination is kinda dead for a while.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:14 AM
Who cares why Undead are disgusting...

The real irksome question is this:

Why in the nine hells do they tell us how to create every construct printed but dont give us necromancers RAW ways to create our favorite undead monstrosities that are printed :smallfrown:

Czin
2011-01-28, 06:14 AM
Who cares why Undead are disgusting...

The real irksome question is this:

Why in the nine hells do they tell us how to create every construct printed but dont give us necromancers RAW ways to create our favorite undead monstrosities that are printed :smallfrown:

Because to WotC Robots>>>Zombies, and quite frankly...I agree...:smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2011-01-28, 06:15 AM
Only a person who has never cut open a corpse can say that.

Screw robots.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-28, 06:19 AM
The number of undead creatures with an often, usually, or always good alignment (of any kind) throughout all of 3.Xe can be counted on one hand. :smallwink:
The number that can be counted as often or usually evil on the other hand would require someone with a severe case of polydactylism to count one hand, and do not preclude the existence of multiple neutral or even good members of the type.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:20 AM
Because to WotC Robots>>>Zombies, and quite frankly...I agree...:smallbiggrin:

I would agree with you, my lawnmower is a robot after all :smallbiggrin:

But still, just seems silly that they would go through and give all the constructs construction rules when they never even dedicated a book to them!

Yet undead who have a whole deadicated ( ~.^ ) book (libris Mortis) dont get creation rules for some of the nifty undead included within.

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 06:25 AM
The number of undead creatures with an often, usually, or always good alignment (of any kind) throughout all of 3.Xe can be counted on one hand. :smallwink:

Yes but they still exist. Also how do tonnes of undead have sentience yet are always Evil. If they have sentience then they have a mind of thier own. Which means they can change alignment (Except maybe Outsiders as they are the physical embodiments of a plane).

Also you can't really trust the D&D alignment system. Its pretty broken.

Czin
2011-01-28, 06:30 AM
Yes but they still exist. Also how do tonnes of undead have sentience yet are always Evil. If they have sentience then they have a mind of thier own. Which means they can change alignment (Except maybe Outsiders as they are the physical embodiments of a plane).

Also you can't really trust the D&D alignment system. Its pretty broken.

It's because Negative Energy has a corrupting influence on the soul, living creatures can't handle all that corruption, so they're driven typically driven to evil upon undeath.

Czin
2011-01-28, 06:31 AM
Only a person who has never cut open a corpse can say that.

Screw robots.

But if you're the terminator, you can have both a fleshy corpse and be a robot (and look like an skeleton.) So you'd be a...you'd be a...you'd just be weird...:smallbiggrin:

Eldan
2011-01-28, 06:31 AM
Source?

Negative Energy, like positive energy (or gravity), is a neutral force, free of alignment. Alignment is the shtick of the outer planes, the inner planes are about forces. Sure, there's the princes of elemental good and evil, but those are exceptions, really.

Edit: Cyborgs are cool. No question there.

Czin
2011-01-28, 06:32 AM
Source?

Negative Energy, like positive energy (or gravity), is a neutral force, free of alignment. Alignment is the shtick of the outer planes, the inner planes are about forces. Sure, there's the princes of elemental good and evil, but those are exceptions, really.

It's from stuff I read in 4e's Open Grave book (I only read it for the fluff, I don't get 4e stat blocks so they were useless to me.) But in that book, certain intelligent undead are soulless, paradoxically, incorporeal wraiths are one of them.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:33 AM
It's from stuff I read in 4e's Open Grave book (I only read it for the fluff, I don't get 4e stat blocks so they were useless to me.) But in that book, certain intelligent undead are soulless, paradoxically, incorporeal wraiths are one of them.

Leave it the WoTC to forget their own stuff :smallbiggrin:

Ravens_cry
2011-01-28, 06:36 AM
Well, some undead feed on sentient intelligent life, ghouls and vampires come to mind, so an always evil alignment makes some sense. And SRD Liches apparently go through some ritual so horrifyingly evil, it changes their alignment if they weren't already evil. As for others, well, I don't own those books, so I can't say.

Eldan
2011-01-28, 06:36 AM
It's from stuff I read in 4e's Open Grave book (I only read it for the fluff, I don't get 4e stat blocks so they were useless to me.) But in that book, certain intelligent undead are soulless, paradoxically, incorporeal wraiths are one of them.

Ah, 4E fluff. Don't really know much about it, really. I'm more of a 3E/Planescape person.

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 06:38 AM
Negative Energy & Positive Energy don't mix. The living bodies are fueled by positive energy. When it dies the positive energy is gone. The necromancer then charges the corpse with negative energy. This animates the corpse turning into undead.
Negative & Positive are like fire it can be used for good but also for evil. It is unaligned. But WotC decided that basically all undead must be evil.

Here is a question "Why are mindless creatures Always evil?"
If it doesn't have a mind how does it have morality? It can't even use instincts as it does what ever the caster says.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:42 AM
Negative Energy & Positive Energy don't mix. The living bodies are fueled by positive energy. When it dies the positive energy is gone. The necromancer then charges the corpse with negative energy. This animates the corpse turning into undead.
Negative & Positive are like fire it can be used for good but also for evil. It is unaligned. But WotC decided that basically all undead must be evil.

Here is a question "Why are mindless creatures Always evil?"
If it doesn't have a mind how does it have morality? It can't even use instincts as it does what ever the caster says.

i just thought of an argument to use against one of my more annoying GMs. :smallbiggrin:

"Always evil creatures have roughly 5% of their population which is not evil, all the undead I make are that 5% and thus good!"

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 06:45 AM
I like that idea.
Still that doesn't (or shouldn't) work with skeletons and zombies. As they are mindless.
Also I have to say with the whole Undead are equal thing, I am completly 100% biased. As my favourite build is "Necromancer".

This is just a little question but does anyone else agree that thier is a horrible typo in the Pale Master entry?
Necrophilia. I keep saying its a typo.

Ravens_cry
2011-01-28, 06:46 AM
i just thought of an argument to use against one of my more annoying GMs. :smallbiggrin:

"Always evil creatures have roughly 5% of their population which is not evil, all the undead I make are that 5% and thus good!"
Or neutral. I think it is more likely to meet a neutral member in that 5% then actually good.

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 06:50 AM
If you want to ruin the negative energy is evil thing play as a Vithui. Its homebrew but its a great race. Also has an equal chance of being good as evil. As chaotic as lawful.

FelixG
2011-01-28, 06:55 AM
Also on the topic of "negetive energy kills all life!"


...It restores life to a character with tomb tainted soul...and people withthat can be very much alive!

(A particularly fun character is a Paladin with the "curse" of tomb tainted soul)

Ravens_cry
2011-01-28, 07:00 AM
If you want to ruin the negative energy is evil thing play as a Vithui. Its homebrew but its a great race. Also has an equal chance of being good as evil. As chaotic as lawful.
Or a Necropolitan.

TricksyAndFalse
2011-01-28, 10:09 AM
Negative Energy & Positive Energy don't mix.

Have you heard that song by Loverboy?

Eldan
2011-01-28, 10:30 AM
Wasn't there a creature born from the mix of positive and negative energy? I'm away from books, but it had a name like Xix-yah (there was a bunch of them, all with names like that).

Czin
2011-01-28, 11:24 AM
Ah, 4E fluff. Don't really know much about it, really. I'm more of a 3E/Planescape person.

Same here (though I'm more of a Greyhawk kind of kid), I only got the book because it was on sale.

Czin
2011-01-28, 11:27 AM
Wasn't there a creature born from the mix of positive and negative energy? I'm away from books, but it had a name like Xix-yah (there was a bunch of them, all with names like that).

No, no; those were positive and negative energy outsiders from the manual of the planes. The fiend folio had some sort of giant flying orb of mercury (I think it was really early in the book so it's name probably started with an A) that was the median between the positive and negative energy outsiders. If I could but find my copy of the fiend folio I could tell you more about it but as of now I'm only running from memory.

AtomicKitKat
2011-01-28, 01:07 PM
No, no; those were positive and negative energy outsiders from the manual of the planes. The fiend folio had some sort of giant flying orb of mercury (I think it was really early in the book so it's name probably started with an A) that was the median between the positive and negative energy outsiders. If I could but find my copy of the fiend folio I could tell you more about it but as of now I'm only running from memory.

Looked it up. I remembered the spelling right. Aoa.

As for the other thing, he's probably thinking of an Epic Level Handbook Abomination.

I just checked though, none that are Positive+Negative mixtures.

Trekkin
2011-01-28, 05:11 PM
Looked it up. I remembered the spelling right. Aoa.

As for the other thing, he's probably thinking of an Epic Level Handbook Abomination.

I just checked though, none that are Positive+Negative mixtures.

The pseudophysicist in me is begging to see a summoning circle for summoning positive energy ones and negative energy ones placed on opposite inside faces of the same space and surrounded by a collector array to make a DnD antimatter reactor.

As to the original topic, I think part of it is because Necromancy, as a magic school, is a handy dumping ground. It has the evil cleric spells and a lot of the wizard spells that beg to have tropes concerning playing God attached to them, most of which are powered by the exact opposite of the energy that powers life. Instant evil wizard: just add Necromancy and shovel in some bloodstained operating tables so the good wizards know who to accuse of tampering with the natural order before they shoot lightning from their fingertips at him/her and teleport his/her collected wealth to their private universe. Accordingly, its products are disgusting, malicious, and likely insane, emulating their (assumed) creators.

So it has to be gross because it's evil, and it has to be evil so there can be magic villains without magic being morally dubious.

Archpaladin Zousha
2011-01-28, 05:17 PM
I think it's interesting that initially necromancy wasn't about summoning corpses to act as shock troops. It was technically a type of divination in which you contacted the dead to have them answer questions. While D&D has necromancy spells like that (Speak with Dead, obviously), I'm not sure where the term "necromancy" shifted from "summoning ghosts for information" to "hordes of rotting bodies killing for you."

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 05:18 PM
Have you heard that song by Loverboy?

No. I don't really think I even heard of that band before.

Also does everyone here agree that the Pale Master has a horrible typo. My players are starting to make it a running joke.
I'm talking about the Necrophilia.

Please tell me that this is a typo. I think its a typo.

LOTRfan
2011-01-28, 05:41 PM
Which leads to the question, are there any evil Deathless?

Milo v3
2011-01-28, 05:47 PM
Yes probably. They were probably given life by evil gods.

Cerlis
2011-01-28, 06:16 PM
and how would you make a undead creature not disgusting exactly?

(Save for obvious things such as clean skeletons, and undead......things made not of flesh)

I mean, seriously. Everytime i try to imagine something undead that isnt disgusting my mind is drawn towards images of elementals, and spirits, and things made not of flesh, but are harbringers of death.

how could you do it?

druid91
2011-01-28, 06:36 PM
Wraiths, Vampires, Dustmen, Etc...


Dead does not mean gory. Necromancer does not mean sick freak who mutilates corpses into a highly improbably helpful fashion.

Personally I've always liked skeletons surrounded by a field of negative energy pouring out of them.

Kuma Da
2011-01-28, 06:59 PM
Responding to Cerlis' challenge, particularly because I likes me some moral ambiguity. I think the undead can be anything the DM wants them to be, running the spectrum from beautiful to disgusting, and from malicious to benign.

The following are possible ideas for 'clean' undead, that nonetheless can be creepy in their own right.

-Ghosts that are cleaned and dressed for burial. Their features are soft and indistinct, like eroded statues. Their hauntings aren't necessarily violent or gross. They might just be soft music playing from a balcony, or a cat jumping onto a divan to snuggle with whatever isn't there. As for their motives, don't go for grand revenges or deep, yearning needs. Pick out the little things. Maybe they still want to make coffee every morning.

-Mummies that smell strongly of exotic herbs, salts, and oils. They're supposed to be lavishly preserved for the afterlife, right? Underneath the wrappings, they may be dried and cured and dead, but on the surface they're painted with intricate designs and smell like a jar of potpourri. They might even have elaborate facemasks, designed to emulate what their face looked like when they were alive. Hell, maybe one has a mask enchanted so that when it talks to you, you can see the smooth stone lips on the mask shaping words.

-Zombies that haven't been run through a sawmill on the way over. Their expressions are slack and their bodies are wasted thin, but they look more like they've been anesthetized than slaughtered. Think about it. If you're a necromancer and want lots of menial meat-puppets doing your chores, do you want them dripping intestine all over the carpet? Maybe they've been properly embalmed or preserved as part of the summoning process.

Honestly, a lot of the monster manual seems to think that evil either = gross, or so-beautiful-it-hurts. It doesn't work like that in real life, so I don't see why it has to be so binary in gaming either.

I mean, gross evil things are a-okay in my book, but sometimes you can get way scarier when something doesn't hit your players over the head with how gross it is.

Vknight
2011-01-28, 07:10 PM
Exactly as others have said.

Also 'Boneclaws' though very disturbing if made to look normal with the extending claws hidden so they can preform there duties without bein hunted by clerics or paladins on sight.

Milo v3
2011-02-15, 08:02 PM
Undead don't need to be gross. Your DM controls the description. E.g. One DM's description of a zombie.
"This grisly corpse rises from the pool of what seems to be blood. A gaping hole lies in its stomach, from which organs poured. Its ripped clothes covered in an unkown liquid. A noise came from its mouth but no sound came out, as its jaw lay in the pool"
Another DM's description of a zombie:
"The body rises from the pool. Its face makes it look like its crying, yet no tears run. It shambles across the floor without emotion. As it gets closer you realise its a young girl."
Both are descriptions of a zombie in but one is grisly and the other is more haunting.
Both are great for horror campaigns.

Callista
2011-02-15, 08:29 PM
Even when the undead are decently preserved, they still evoke the uncanny valley effect, and there's very little--short of illusion magic--that can prevent that from happening. People are just instinctively repelled by death.

Coidzor
2011-02-15, 08:31 PM
Also does everyone here agree that the Pale Master has a horrible typo. My players are starting to make it a running joke.
I'm talking about the Necrophilia.

Please tell me that this is a typo. I think its a typo.

Is it a requirement or a class feature?


Wraiths, Vampires, Dustmen, Etc...

Dustmen?

I remember mentioning once in another, somewhat similar thread about how I was once inspired by a dread necromancer character's excuse of being a gardener to explain all of his exhumation gear and as a result of this inspiration started tinkering around with some creatures along the lines of Yellow Musk Creeper Zombies or dual-typed-ish plant/undead symbiosis/hybrids.

And before I went that far it started out with the idea of skeletons covered in thick, ropey vines with flowers blooming on their surface with with their hollow bone interiors(where the marrow was) and pelvic area/rib cages converted into storing soil for the root systems. A bit alien, but more of a very exotic form of gardening/landscaping/flower arranging than outright disgusting/nauseating.

In somewhat related news, has anyone ever heard of the Sedlec (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Kostnice_Sedlec.JPG) Ossuary (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/File:Kostnice03.jpg) before?

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 08:35 PM
and how would you make a undead creature not disgusting exactly?

(Save for obvious things such as clean skeletons, and undead......things made not of flesh)

I mean, seriously. Everytime i try to imagine something undead that isnt disgusting my mind is drawn towards images of elementals, and spirits, and things made not of flesh, but are harbringers of death.

how could you do it?

Ghosts and other phantasms, for one.

Being undead also implies that something is preserved by that undeath. For example, vampires. One might create a different undead being that is also preserved, perhaps to serve as an infiltrator (maybe even using psychic powers or sustaining itself by slaughtering and devouring the dreams of its nearby victims).

Nerocite
2011-02-15, 08:35 PM
No. I don't really think I even heard of that band before.

Also does everyone here agree that the Pale Master has a horrible typo. My players are starting to make it a running joke.
I'm talking about the Necrophilia.

Please tell me that this is a typo. I think its a typo.

Do you mean the whole "Locked in a tomb with Undead for 3 days"? Because I can't find anything else about it.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 08:37 PM
Do you mean the whole "Locked in a tomb with Undead for 3 days"? Because I can't find anything else about it.

One of its abilities references necrophilia, which D&D labels as arbitrarily evil, as opposed to just weird.

Nerocite
2011-02-15, 08:39 PM
One of its abilities references necrophilia, which D&D labels as arbitrarily evil, as opposed to just weird.

Found it: "Terrible necrophiliac urges" which result in cutting off your arm and getting an undead graft.

druid91
2011-02-15, 08:44 PM
Dustmen?

Dustmen.

Men of dust.

Undead spirits that take the form of people made of dust.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 08:44 PM
Found it: "Terrible necrophiliac urges" which result in cutting off your arm and getting an undead graft.

Yep. Again, arbitrary evil.

Coidzor
2011-02-15, 09:21 PM
Dustmen.

Men of dust.

Undead spirits that take the form of people made of dust.

Are they featured anywhere?

Milo v3
2011-02-15, 09:56 PM
How is grafting on a skeleton arm "Necrophilia".

Goldfly
2011-02-15, 10:05 PM
How is grafting on a skeleton arm "Necrophilia".

Oh, how it yearns to be said... :smallwink:

I'm sure it's a typo.

druid91
2011-02-15, 10:10 PM
Are they featured anywhere?

The closest thing I saw is the dustform creature, it even has the fluff. But it's a construct not an undead.

Doesn't make much sense when you consider it is the dusty spirit of a creature that died in the desert having slowly turned to sand.

Percival
2011-02-15, 10:22 PM
Congratulations, this thread inspired me to build a necromancer. Have an internet.

druid91
2011-02-15, 10:31 PM
Congratulations, this thread inspired me to build a necromancer. Have an internet.

Who has an internet??

Twilightwyrm
2011-02-15, 10:35 PM
Disgusting is kind of in the job description. You are animating, or instilling life-corrosive energy in, something that is essentially already dead and rotting. Don't like it? Use wraiths and shadows. They are not less out rightly evil but at least they aren't disgusting. Or better yet? And this could save your life some day: Don't be a necromancer.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 10:37 PM
Disgusting is kind of in the job description. You are animating, or instilling life-corrosive energy in, something that is essentially already dead and rotting. Don't like it? Use wraiths and shadows. They are not less out rightly evil but at least they aren't disgusting. Or better yet? And this could save your life some day: Don't be a necromancer.

My army of orphanage-building, soup-kitchen running sapient skeletons would like a polite word with you about discriminating against the differently-alive.

Coidzor
2011-02-15, 10:53 PM
Oh, and that reminds me, I rather liked the Deathless making PRC that someone mentioned in a related thread on "why necromancy must be evil?"

Redeemer of Regrets, (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=9994058&postcount=14) I believe it was. Sort of like a more hopeful version from the other direction of the idea that culminated in the Hellbred.

I believe Deathless should be less disgusting than Undead. Though they have their own issues, of course.

LOTRfan
2011-02-15, 10:56 PM
I agree with that. I've always seen Deathless as (as the name implies) not dead at all, but rather creatures who have learned to either shuck their physical bodies or creatures who use positive energy to force their souls to stay into their bodies. As such, they are not decomposing.

/opinionated fluff

Milo v3
2011-02-15, 11:36 PM
Deathless= Rare versions of Undead Charged with positive energy instead of negative. Simply thier rotting living people that get healed by positive energy and damaged by negative energy.

Innis Cabal
2011-02-15, 11:45 PM
Dead does not mean gory. Necromancer does not mean sick freak who mutilates corpses into a highly improbably helpful fashion.

You've clearly never seen a decaying corpse ever in your life. Dead isn't pretty in the slightest. Lots of gases and fluids and all that, decaying flesh and bugs that like to feast on that sort of thing...frankly the idea of a "clean necromancer" is...sort of silly.

As for Necromancer's not being sick freaks who mess with corpses...that's the typical style for one. Most cultures view messing with the dead abhorrent in one manner or another so it's not a trope that exists without merit. You can flavor them how ever you wish, but most necromancers work with the dead. This means it's going to be messy regardless of what you want. If you want to go with necromancers as some diviner with the spirits that's different and the literal translation but quite frankly if your working in D&D you're better off just not being a necromancer if that's the goal.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-15, 11:46 PM
You've clearly never seen a decaying corpse ever in your life. Dead isn't pretty in the slightest. Lots of gases and fluids and all that, decaying flesh and bugs that like to feast on that sort of thing...frankly the idea of a "clean necromancer" is...sort of silly.

As for Necromancer's not being sick freaks who mess with corpses...that's the typical style for one. Most cultures view messing with the dead abhorrent in one manner or another so it's not a trope that exists without merit. You can flavor them how ever you wish, but most necromancers work with the dead. This means it's going to be messy regardless of what you want. If you want to go with necromancers as some diviner with the spirits that's different and the literal translation but quite frankly if your working in D&D you're better off just not being a necromancer if that's the goal.

Mind you, Diablo II did a great job with portraying creepy, but ultimately non-evil Necromancers.

Scorpions__
2011-02-15, 11:49 PM
I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about the freakish things with six arms three legs and no apparent head....

That sort of thing.

Simple shabby zombies isn't what I mean.

Necrosis Carnexes are totally awesome, just think of what a stable coffee table they could make!

Mounts perhaps...





DM[F]R

Milo v3
2011-02-16, 12:03 AM
You've clearly never seen a decaying corpse ever in your life. Dead isn't pretty in the slightest. Lots of gases and fluids and all that, decaying flesh and bugs that like to feast on that sort of thing...frankly the idea of a "clean necromancer" is...sort of silly.

As for Necromancer's not being sick freaks who mess with corpses...that's the typical style for one. Most cultures view messing with the dead abhorrent in one manner or another so it's not a trope that exists without merit. You can flavor them how ever you wish, but most necromancers work with the dead. This means it's going to be messy regardless of what you want. If you want to go with necromancers as some diviner with the spirits that's different and the literal translation but quite frankly if your working in D&D you're better off just not being a necromancer if that's the goal.

Decaying Corpse
I've seen a decaying corpse. Your right its not pretty. But many undead are actually skeletal or Incorporeal. And if not I cast "Greater Gentle Repose". Any Necromancer with class won't let rotting undead serve. You might get a disease from them.

Culture
Kobolds and some other races don't care about the dead. So thier goes that.

messy regardless of what you want
Skeletons, Shadows, Wraiths, basically any undead with gentle repose.

Trekkin
2011-02-16, 03:23 AM
Actually, Gentle Repose might make necromancy even more disturbing. Even if decay is stopped, an animate corpse is going to have a host of things subtly wrong with it. It won't twitch with a heartbeat or emit pheromones or have its pupils fluctuate or anything of that sort--and even if no one consciously notices those, such signals are a major part of how we read each other and identify as human. It's landing in the uncanny valley from the far side; to have a human-looking thing moving without them would trigger general malaise on a level far more insidious than simple revulsion at decay.

Maybe necromancers let their creations decay at least in part because a rotting corpse, however disgusting, doesn't keep nagging at the back of your mind at how subtly wrong it is that something this close to human yet this inhuman exist.

golentan
2011-02-16, 03:26 AM
Oh, how it yearns to be said... :smallwink:

I'm sure it's a typo.

I'd say you win an internet. But I'm afraid of what you might do with it.

Eldan
2011-02-16, 03:34 AM
You've clearly never seen a decaying corpse ever in your life. Dead isn't pretty in the slightest. Lots of gases and fluids and all that, decaying flesh and bugs that like to feast on that sort of thing...frankly the idea of a "clean necromancer" is...sort of silly.

As for Necromancer's not being sick freaks who mess with corpses...that's the typical style for one. Most cultures view messing with the dead abhorrent in one manner or another so it's not a trope that exists without merit. You can flavor them how ever you wish, but most necromancers work with the dead. This means it's going to be messy regardless of what you want. If you want to go with necromancers as some diviner with the spirits that's different and the literal translation but quite frankly if your working in D&D you're better off just not being a necromancer if that's the goal.

I've seen corpses. I've even cut a few open, and I don't find them disgusting at all. Sure, they smell, but you get used to that. Afterwards, they are just fascinating.

Haarkla
2011-02-16, 08:29 AM
How is grafting on a skeleton arm "Necrophilia".
It depends on, where you graft it! ;D

bloodlover
2011-02-16, 08:34 AM
Edit: Although arguably even modern vampires are still quite unnatractive, being pale, pulseless, and deathly cold .

Actually this is what I find atractive at vampires. Especially female vampires :smallbiggrin:

Also I think necromancy goes well with the whole disgusting theme due to media and the way it has always been presented. It's suposed to be scary and make you disgusted. Just imagine if Dracula would be wearing a pink dress and riding a fluffy unicorn at night. I doubt people would stil be afraid of him and see him as a creature of the night.

Protecar
2011-02-16, 08:41 AM
I gotta say that I don't find necromancy inherently evil. Negative energy does not appear inherently evil any more than positive energy(people will explode if sent to the positive plane--just as dead if they were sent to the negative energy plane).

I created a plot area where a necromancer reanimated people's loved ones as tokens to remind their family of them. The townsfolk used them as manual labor(tilling farms, etc) to provide for those who were alive.

My players still insisted on butchering the necromancer and the zombies.

Moral of the story? People believe what they want, in and out of character.
If you want non-disgusting necromancy, you're just gonna have to subscribe to some DM-powerd cooperation. If you research a spell that reverses the effects of decay, so that your undead look sleek and sexy, who's gonna argue? :smallbiggrin:

Callista
2011-02-16, 12:04 PM
I've seen corpses. I've even cut a few open, and I don't find them disgusting at all. Sure, they smell, but you get used to that. Afterwards, they are just fascinating.Same here; I've taken an anatomy class that gave me that opportunity, and yes--they are fascinating. But that's different from necromancy, very different. Rather than examining something that used to be living in order to learn about life, you are forcing a dead body to move and possibly think by infusing it with the antithesis of life. When you are learning about anatomy, your focus isn't on death; it's on life. You want to learn to be a medical professional; you want to learn about disease or learn about what happened to this particular person when they were alive. Necromancy is the exact opposite--the focus is on taking advantage of death, using death energy, using dead bodies. Animating a dead body only emphasizes that it is a corpse--in a very real way, a zombie is more dead than an inanimate corpse, not less so.

Now, that doesn't have much to do with the moral implications of necromancy; but it does have a lot to do with the creep factor. It's not just a dead body--it's a dead body with the "dead" factor cranked up so high that the body is forced into motion.

Percival
2011-02-16, 12:33 PM
Just imagine if Dracula would be wearing a pink dress and riding a fluffy unicorn at night. I doubt people would stil be afraid of him and see him as a creature of the night.

You asked for it (http://tinyurl.com/39t2pxv)

slaydemons
2011-02-16, 12:37 PM
This brings to the question then why is animate dead Evil just for casting it Wotc just thinks its evil or maybe gary saw it evil check to see if its evil in AD&D

Callista
2011-02-16, 12:48 PM
Many DMs houserule that creating mindless undead is not, in fact, evil at all.

It depends on a lot of things.

Are the mindless undead, uncontrolled, automatically going to go and kill all the living things they can; or do they just stand there?

Does the very existence of mindless undead open up little portals to the negative energy plane and leach life from the world; or are they just bodies animated by negative energy that has no effect on anything they can't touch?

Does creating a mindless undead lock the soul into the body as a horrified impotent passenger, or does the soul go on to the afterlife, uncaring of what is happening to the body it used to inhabit?

Why are you creating the undead? Are you creating a work force for your peasant village; or are you creating an army to attack them; or are you zombifying your enemies' loved ones to horrify and traumatize them?

It depends on the DM and the setting; but quite a few people rule that creating mindless undead is not evil. Depending on the setting, it is often one of my house rules--though in most societies animating the dead is frowned on and is generally deeply chaotic as a result.

Dr.Epic
2011-02-16, 12:51 PM
Yeah, because when I think decayed cadavers I think pleasant thoughts that don't make me want to gag.

Comet
2011-02-16, 12:54 PM
I might be repeating someone else here, but who says that necromancy has to be disgusting?

There are heaps and tonnes of charming skeletons out there in various kinds of fiction. Friendly, helpful and wicked good dancers if you're lucky.

Sure, zombies are another matter entirely. But not all stories present life after death as a horrifying thing.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-16, 01:06 PM
I read somewhere (grain of salt needed, since source may not be official). As additional undead are added to the world the material plane is drawn closer to the negative energy plane and further from positive. This over time weakens natural life. I think that would qualify it as negative on that aspect alone. That being said, I have little problem with "good" necromancers in the abstract. Heck one of grayhawk's most undead friendly deities is neutral not evil (We Jas, who is awesome for so many reasons). If you want clean looking evil magics: Transmutation/conjuration - either one is better than necro, buff up living NPCs. Evil Druid - Plenty of cute fuzzy critter out for blood. Or if you must have the advantages of undeath, just flay the skin off your dudes, bones don't stink.

Eldan
2011-02-16, 01:42 PM
If Necromancy where drawing the world to the negative energy plane, healing would draw it to positive, which would be just as bad. So, Necromancers are just balancing out all that surplus resurrecting adventurers do.

Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-16, 02:04 PM
As far as it goes, it's natural that necromancy be disgusting.

When examining how human beings perceive smells, scientists discovered that what smells good vs what smells bad is almost entirely cultural. There are very few (I think only 2 known) scents that are putrid regardless of culture, and one of those is rotting flesh.

What does this tell us about ourselves? It hints that humans have a genetic revulsion of the dead. Which of course applies to the undead as well. This is the nature of necromancy; it's going to be disgusting.

If you want clean evil magic, perhaps you shouldn't be aiming for the undead. Have you considered the use of constructs, or something of this sort?

slaydemons
2011-02-16, 02:23 PM
I believe the point various people are trying to make is that necromancy can be seen as anything it is just the people who wrote the book see it as gross and evil If your dm'ing you can change it so its not gross and evil enough said right. IMHO

erikun
2011-02-16, 03:10 PM
I read somewhere (grain of salt needed, since source may not be official). As additional undead are added to the world the material plane is drawn closer to the negative energy plane and further from positive.
This sounds a lot like one of the Tome explanations. That is, a 100% unofficial, homebrew explanation as to why creating undead would be considered "evil".

There is no official reason for undead to be evil. (The old "tendency to attack the living" was apparently only in AD&D.) You can make whatever reasoning either way you want, although I would think that Animate Dead is only [Evil] because the creatures it creates are evil. Creating a Necropolitan is not evil, after all.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-16, 03:39 PM
Actually, Mr. Erikun, that's presented as an option for the nature of undeath in Libris Mortis. There are other options presented as well.

Innis Cabal
2011-02-16, 03:56 PM
Decaying Corpse
I've seen a decaying corpse. Your right its not pretty. But many undead are actually skeletal or Incorporeal. And if not I cast "Greater Gentle Repose". Any Necromancer with class won't let rotting undead serve. You might get a disease from them.

1. Many are not in fact skeletal or incorporeal. A small section of them are indeed, but most are between those two ranges.

2. The last bit really is just opinion. I could argue that any necromancer with a brain has remove disease since Clerics make better necromancers in the first place.


Culture
Kobolds and some other races don't care about the dead. So thier goes that.

Not at all what I was talking about quite frankly.


messy regardless of what you want
Skeletons, Shadows, Wraiths, basically any undead with gentle repose.

Yes, those would be unmessy undead. That is a small group of a very large sample size. I never argued that all undead were messy in the first place, just that it was logical that it wouldn't be clean.



I've seen corpses. I've even cut a few open, and I don't find them disgusting at all. Sure, they smell, but you get used to that. Afterwards, they are just fascinating.

I have to, and I never used the word "disgusting" as a personal opinion on it. The fact of the matter is decaying, decomposing bodies are not pretty and the vast majority of people will find the stench alone disgusting.

Milo v3
2011-02-16, 05:12 PM
The living are just like undead. But they are charged with positive energy from birth.
In my campaign their are two versions of each undead creating spell.
One for negative energy one for positive.