Cohort troubles

[Paladineyddi]

Hello Playgrounders

This is my first real post here so please let me know if i violating any rules

Me and a friend are taking part in a campaign in which we have been playing for some time now and we cant seem to get into our thick heads how the cohort works exactly

I am playing a level 18 silver Half-Dragon paladin of Bahamut and i have the Leadership feat
(paladin lvl 15+ECL)
My cohort is Hound Archoon paladin of Bahamut sent by Bahamut to aid me in times of need (hes not always there)
what i cant seem to grasp is what is his lvl in paladin with his 6 levels of outsider?




My friend is a playing a lvl 17 cleric of Ilmater and has recently left the order of the golden chalice because he feels the need for a more militaristic order in these times of great war in the realms

so he has taken the leadership feat and attracted a paladin of Torm to serve him as his right hand and general on the field
this paladin is a lvl 12 paladin and a lvl 3 shadowbane Inquisitor (i think)

this paladin has chosen a Griffon to ride into battle on
what is the HD of said Griffon?

Our Leadership scores are sufficiently high enough to attract cohorts of such caliber i only cant seem to grasp what lvl/HD they are this late at night XD

please help.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Make a Character your level -3

ECL 15 Hound Archon with 6 levels of Outsider
Outsider6/Paladin9
Roll that up and you have your Cohort.

EDIT: Your Cleric17 friend can only have a Character with an ECL14 so he has to delevel that Paladin of Torm

[dsmiles]

Make a Character your level -3

ECL 15 Hound Archon with 6 levels of Outsider
Outsider6/Paladin9
Roll that up and you have your Cohort.

EDIT: Your Cleric17 friend can only have a Character with an ECL14 so he has to delevel that Paladin of Torm

It's level -2 depending on the character's leadership score (level + Cha mod).
And don't forget that hound archons have a level adjustment (+5)

So: ECL 16 Hound Archon Paladin. 5LA + 6 Outsider HD + 5 levels of Paladin.

[DragonOfUndeath]

Whoops serves me right for not looking it.

[dsmiles]

S'ok. I just happened to be on the SRD when I saw this thread. :smallwink:

[ThatBaneCleric]

Make a Character your level -3

ECL 15 Hound Archon with 6 levels of Outsider
Outsider6/Paladin9
Roll that up and you have your Cohort.

EDIT: Your Cleric17 friend can only have a Character with an ECL14 so he has to delevel that Paladin of Torm

I allways thought it was (if your Leadership score was high enough) LVL -2... is that wrong or ?

[DragonOfUndeath]

You are right. I thought it was Yourlevel-3 but it's -2.
dsmiles already pointed that out earlier in the Thread

[ThatBaneCleric]

noticed second after i posted :P teaches me to goto forums at 4am :P

[Bibliomancer]

To answer the question about the paladin cohort's griffon:

The relevant passage for this situation is from the DMG page 204:

Specifically, it says that a paladin can gain a griffon as a mount at level 8. A table is included to clarify how bonus HD work in relation to the paladin's level relative to level at which the mount could be gained.

I don't have access to the Shadowbane Inquisitor (which I believe is from the Complete Scoundrel), but if it does NOT gain paladin mount advancement (making the effective paladin level 12, or 4 above what is necessary to get a griffon) then the griffon would get:

+4 Bonus HD, +6 Natural Armor Adjustment +2 Strength Adjustment and have an Int of 7.

If said prestige class DOES offer paladin mount advancement, making the effective paladin level 15 or 7 above what is necessary to get a griffon, then the griffon would get:

+6 Bonus HD, +8 Natural Armor Adjustment +3 Strength Adjustment and have an Int of 8.

Hope that helps.

Also, welcome to the forums Paladineyydi!

[Paladineyddi]

So: ECL 16 Hound Archon Paladin. 5LA + 6 Outsider HD + 5 levels of Paladin.

Is there any way i can attach this to my paladin special mount in order for him to gain more levels in paladin?

thanks a bunch :D

[dsmiles]

I'm not 100% certain of what you're asking, but I'll give it a shot:

Your Pal's mount is his mount.

Your cohort's Pal mount is his.

They could each have a special mount (if they are of qualifying level), but that's got nothing to do with the other character's Pal levels. Did I clarify anything for you? :smallsmile:

[Paladineyddi]

I'm not 100% certain of what you're asking, but I'll give it a shot:

Your Pal's mount is his mount.

Your cohort's Pal mount is his.

They could each have a special mount (if they are of qualifying level), but that's got nothing to do with the other character's Pal levels. Did I clarify anything for you? :smallsmile:

No what i mean is can my characters special mount and cohort be combined?
thus giving the hound archoon more paladin lvls/more outsider lvls

the hound archoon gets no special mount he got other things instead

thanks a bunch for the help btw :)

[teslas]

You want to combine your Special Mount with your cohort from Leadership for a hound archon? Do you plan on riding him around? If the answer is no, then I don't think a sane DM would allow that. If the answer is yes, and the DM somehow allows it, well that opens up a big can of words on all sorts of interpretations of what it means to combine Special Mount or Animal Companion and the Leadership feat. You probably don't want to go there.

Also don't forget that you yourself should take a penalty on your Leadership score from having a special mount companion, if you have one. This may not apply.

I looked at Shadowbane Inquisitors and they do NOT gain special mount progression.

[Paladineyddi]

You want to combine your Special Mount with your cohort from Leadership for a hound archon? Do you plan on riding him around? If the answer is no, then I don't think a sane DM would allow that. If the answer is yes, and the DM somehow allows it, well that opens up a big can of words on all sorts of interpretations of what it means to combine Special Mount or Animal Companion and the Leadership feat. You probably don't want to go there.

Also don't forget that you yourself should take a penalty on your Leadership score from having a special mount companion, if you have one. This may not apply.

I looked at Shadowbane Inquisitors and they do NOT gain special mount progression.

Oh i do want to go there
have to keep up with everyone else which is kinda hard when playing a straight paladin in a group of full casters :P

the minus on the leadership score is really not a problem

[teslas]

Ok. Let's go there.

Short answer: It's up to your DM.

Long answer: You have a singular logical option in this case, RAW.


Generally, Leadership adds class levels to a companion up to 2 below your level. Special Mount adds bonus HD of whatever race the mount is. In this situation, that would be Outsider. The DM needs to decide in which order these two things apply to your mount/cohort. If it's mount before cohort, you will get no benefit, and in fact, it will weaken the companion/cohort due to the type of ECL gained. If it's cohort before mount, see below.

Your DM must determine what kind of adjustment that the hound archon paladin mount would need as a Special Mount. My guess? A ton. So much that it's not worth assuming anything but way higher than you can achieve in 20 paladin levels. You had divine aid with it, though, so let's run with this.

So, if the adjustment were "a ton" like it should be, it still does gain +2 bonus HD by virtue of being a Special Mount, because that's the smallest possible benefit that can be granted while still being a Special Mount. He'd also gain the other bonuses: Improved Evasion, Share Spells, +1 STR, and +4 Natural AC.

This bonus HD would be Outsider levels, mind you, going as close to the rules as possible. The bonus HD are racial Hit Dice. The reason the SRD/PHB gives D8 HD and the normal animal saves/BAB is because mounts SHOULD be animals. I doubt your hound archon would gain animal/magical beast HD. (This is probably pretty far out of the intended rules already, so yeah...).

Your DM cannot be insane enough as to allow that. If he is, he cannot be insane enough to allow the full Special Mount progression to your Leadership cohort, as that would make him much, much stronger than you are. The Command creatures of its kind ability would be amusing.

[Paladineyddi]

Ok. Let's go there.

Short answer: It's up to your DM.

Long answer: You have a singular logical option in this case, RAW.


Generally, Leadership adds class levels to a companion up to 2 below your level. Special Mount adds bonus HD of whatever race the mount is. In this situation, that would be Outsider. The DM needs to decide in which order these two things apply to your mount/cohort. If it's mount before cohort, you will get no benefit, and in fact, it will weaken the companion/cohort due to the type of ECL gained. If it's cohort before mount, see below.

Your DM must determine what kind of adjustment that the hound archon paladin mount would need as a Special Mount. My guess? A ton. So much that it's not worth assuming anything but way higher than you can achieve in 20 paladin levels. You had divine aid with it, though, so let's run with this.

So, if the adjustment were "a ton" like it should be, it still does gain +2 bonus HD by virtue of being a Special Mount, because that's the smallest possible benefit that can be granted while still being a Special Mount. He'd also gain the other bonuses: Improved Evasion, Share Spells, +1 STR, and +4 Natural AC.

This bonus HD would be Outsider levels, mind you, going as close to the rules as possible. The bonus HD are racial Hit Dice. The reason the SRD/PHB gives D8 HD and the normal animal saves/BAB is because mounts SHOULD be animals. I doubt your hound archon would gain animal/magical beast HD. (This is probably pretty far out of the intended rules already, so yeah...).

Your DM cannot be insane enough as to allow that. If he is, he cannot be insane enough to allow the full Special Mount progression to your Leadership cohort, as that would make him much, much stronger than you are. The Command creatures of its kind ability would be amusing.

Oh hes strange when it comes to these things, balance isnt much of an issue in his book as long as the rp is good

This thread has clarified most of the stuff i needed thanks people youve all been a great help :D

[dsmiles]

So, you want to ride this:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/Pitt76/Archonjpeg.jpginto battle? Cuz that's a hound archon.

[teslas]

So, you want to ride this:
http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y236/Pitt76/Archonjpeg.jpginto battle? Cuz that's a hound archon.

He'd also need an Exotic Saddle. He'd also have to make sure he's a size category smaller than the hound archon. And as per the Ride skill:
"If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a -5 penalty on your Ride checks."

This DM doesn't sound like much of a person to enforce silly things like quasi-realistic adjustments, though.

[dsmiles]

He'd also need an Exotic Saddle. He'd also have to make sure he's a size category smaller than the hound archon. And as per the Ride skill:
"If you attempt to ride a creature that is ill suited as a mount, you take a -5 penalty on your Ride checks."

This DM doesn't sound like much of a person to enforce silly things like quasi-realistic adjustments, though.But...but...IT'S BIPEDAL!

[teslas]

But...but...IT'S BIPEDAL!

Haha. Well, considering you can ride dinosaurs, some of which only two legs, and large riding birds were submitted by WotC themselves, I think the major problem is the fact that your mount is using a freakin' great sword.

[ThatBaneCleric]

Your DM cannot be insane enough as to allow that. If he is, he cannot be insane enough to allow the full Special Mount progression to your Leadership cohort, as that would make him much, much stronger than you are. The Command creatures of its kind ability would be amusing.

oh he can be quite insane enough to allow all kinds of shennanigans

[Paladineyddi]

Haha. Well, considering you can ride dinosaurs, some of which only two legs, and large riding birds were submitted by WotC themselves, I think the major problem is the fact that your mount is using a freakin' great sword.

no riding of the holy angel is intended :P

[rakkoon]

I can image two fun scenario's

Leave your hound archon in a stable and find out if any horses survive the night
Go to a sadlemaker, say you want a sadle for your mount and leave the hound archon there for the fitting. Come back later to see if the shop still exists.