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View Full Version : [3.5] Frenzied Berserker: How do I Avoid Killing My Fellow Adventurers?



Slipperychicken
2011-01-31, 10:20 PM
Exactly what it says in the title.

I'm making a barbarian with levels of Frenzied Berserker (CW 36). For those of you not familiar with the class, the Frenzy (Ex) is essentially a rage which specifies that the user *must* attack the closest creatures "without regard to innocence, friendship, or health" and "to the best of her ability".

Someone already pointed it out to me that I can't use Iron Heart Surge to get rid of it, because that would impede my character from attacking the nearest creature to the "best of her ability".


I already know about letting casters use Calm Emotions or just generally shut me down until the Frenzy ends, but I'm looking for a way to reliably end it for those times when Mr. Wizard isn't available.

Lhurgyof
2011-01-31, 10:22 PM
Hmm, I thought you only started attacking allies when you were all out of enemies... :smallconfused:

Anywho, I'd say get a good will save. A damn good will save.

Reynard
2011-01-31, 10:25 PM
Buy them Wands of Grease out of your own pocket.

Derjuin
2011-01-31, 10:25 PM
Well, you can end a frenzy with a Will save (DC 20 I believe), so taking Steadfast Determination to get your Con to Will saves instead of Wisdom should help (unless your Wisdom is higher than your Con, for whatever reason); you could also see if your DM would let you use the Righteous Wrath feat to be able to control yourself during a frenzy (it only states Rage in BoED) and not smack your allies. Problem with Righteous Wrath is that it's an Exalted feat, which carries a heavy Good-aligned RP requirement.

Part of Righteous Wrath's description:

While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage.

Bobbis
2011-01-31, 10:26 PM
Yeah, will saves. Iron Will, Cloak of Resistance +5, Periapt of Wisdom, Heroism before a major fight, etc.

Boost it as high as you can. If you're going ubercharger, you don't want to fail that save.

JeminiZero
2011-01-31, 10:40 PM
1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

herrhauptmann
2011-01-31, 11:30 PM
Well, you can end a frenzy with a Will save (DC 20 I believe), so taking Steadfast Determination to get your Con to Will saves instead of Wisdom should help (unless your Wisdom is higher than your Con, for whatever reason); you could also see if your DM would let you use the Righteous Wrath feat to be able to control yourself during a frenzy (it only states Rage in BoED) and not smack your allies. Problem with Righteous Wrath is that it's an Exalted feat, which carries a heavy Good-aligned RP requirement.

Part of Righteous Wrath's description:

While raging, you maintain clarity of mind unusual among barbarians. You are perfectly able to deal nonlethal damage, stop your attacks to show mercy, and distinguish friend from foe even in the heat of your rage.


Bigger problem I always felt, isn't trying to end a frenzy. It's starting a frenzy involuntarily. THAT Will save has a DC equal to 10+damage taken. So it could easily end up in the 30s and 40s before level 10. Worse, that one will often take place as part of a surprise round, or a trap. The party might not be prepared to suddenly shut down your frenzy, and if you go first, you could end up power attacking them into oblivion before they get a chance to grease/calm/hamstring you.

As for Righteous Wrath, could work, but make sure it works for a Frenzy as well as a Rage before you take it. In other words, ask the DM.

Zaeron
2011-01-31, 11:46 PM
1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

This is probably the single coolest thing I've ever read on these forums. I laughed, long and hard. Bravo. Bravo. =)

Amphetryon
2011-02-01, 12:00 AM
Buy them Wands of Grease out of your own pocket.+1. Something like this:

"Sometimes, when Ogg fight, Ogg go CRAZY! Really crazy. Want to kill bad guys, good guys, doors, everbuddy. When Ogg go crazy like dat, Ogg need Magic Man to point dis slick stick *hands over Wand of Grease to party Arcanist* unner Ogg feets. Everbuddy get away from Ogg den until Ogg not crazy no more. OK?"

Vangor
2011-02-01, 12:29 AM
Begin the day in somewhere relatively inescapable for your character and burn through Frenzy. You can now no longer accidentally trigger Frenzy when damaged, and you never have to concern yourself with hurting another player. All you need is a little healing and you are fine.

Now, spend the feats you would on Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and Iron Will on those which actually assist your power attack. Frenzy is icing when possible, not the source of damage which power attack is by itself.

Yukitsu
2011-02-01, 12:33 AM
I always buy a bag or two of steel ball bearings whenever a freind plays a frenzied berserker.

mucat
2011-02-01, 12:33 AM
1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Bonus points if they can convince you to attack them with pickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html).

MeeposFire
2011-02-01, 03:00 AM
Begin the day in somewhere relatively inescapable for your character and burn through Frenzy. You can now no longer accidentally trigger Frenzy when damaged, and you never have to concern yourself with hurting another player. All you need is a little healing and you are fine.

Now, spend the feats you would on Endurance, Steadfast Determination, and Iron Will on those which actually assist your power attack. Frenzy is icing when possible, not the source of damage which power attack is by itself.

This is the solution that offers the most safety. All the others carry varying amounts of risk depending on the situation. For instance if for what ever reason the grease spell does not get set off then your charger will kill 1+ PCs in a round.

Alleine
2011-02-01, 03:52 AM
Crystal Mask of Mindarmor in the Magic Item compendium gives you a +4 insight bonus on will saves for 10k. It'll more reliably help you make those saves to stop yourself before you chop everyone into pieces. That plus a cloak of resistance +whatever you can afford or some buffs from a friendly cleric and you'll be passing those saves like no one's business.

LordBlades
2011-02-01, 03:57 AM
Iron Heart Surge should be able to end Frenzy as well.

2xMachina
2011-02-01, 04:34 AM
There are slight fluff problems with IHS.

But, if you have, say, a Geass on you that you can't attack your friends in Frenzy... The best way you could attack your friends is when you're not in a frenzy, so you need to IHS Frenzy off.

(Geass has no duration, so you can't IHS it away)

ffone
2011-02-01, 04:40 AM
1) Have your character buy a sap. Doesn't need to be masterwork or anything, so it should be reasonably cheap.
2) Out of Character, arrange for your fellow players to have their characters regale your character with bizarre stories on how their secret super weakness is the humble Sap.
3) Intentionally, fail your sense motive check for their outlandish lies.
4) Your character now believes that your entire party has a secret weakness against saps.
5) When you run out of enemies, your character will now attack his friends "to the best of his ability". That will of course involve him pulling out the sap, their one secret weakness (or so he thinks) and hammering them into unconsciousness, but not death.

Step 1-4 are unnecessary if your caster can just mindrape you into believing that your friends are weak against saps.

Bonus points if your allies are all Warforged or other immune-to-nonlethal-damage races.

Combat Reflexes
2011-02-01, 04:42 AM
Iron Heart Surge should be able to end Frenzy as well.

The OP explicitly stated that Iron Heart Surge doesn't work.

From a roleplaying perspective, I think attacking everyone while Frenzied is part of the charm. Where is the fun in playing a bloodgorging, raging, limb-chopping berserker that has an on/off button? It makes him kinda feel like a robot (''The enemies are no more, I'll shut down our BARBARIAN-7000''). That's not why you went Frenzied Berserker.

If you REALLY want to be controlled by your teammates, there are several spells that your squishy caster buddies could use:
-Calm emotions. The Vow of Peace edition comes without a save!
-Hold person. take advantage of that low Will save.
-Obscuring Mist, or, even better: Solid Fog. You can't attack to the best of your ability if you can't see anyone. Just remember to put earplugs in before going frenzy.
-some sort of flying spell for all characters except you. You can't crit what you can't reach.

LordBlades
2011-02-01, 04:58 AM
The OP explicitly stated that Iron Heart Surge doesn't work.

I did not equate 'someone told me it doesn't work' from the OP wit a flat out ' it has been ruled it doesn't work in my group' . I meant to detail why in previous post, but got caught up with work sorry. I beg to disagree with that interpretation for the following reason: If Iron Heart Surge prevents you (RP wise) from 'attacking the nearest creature to the best of her ability', then so would attempting the Will save to end the Frenzy(or any other way to voluntarily end it), wouldn't it?




From a roleplaying perspective, I think attacking everyone while Frenzied is part of the charm. Where is the fun in playing a bloodgorging, raging, limb-chopping berserker that has an on/off button? It makes him kinda feel like a robot (''The enemies are no more, I'll shut down our BARBARIAN-7000''). That's not why you went Frenzied Berserker.

It depends on the group. Some would like it as you described, whereas for others, the possibility of being one-shotted by an ally would take away from the fun of the game.

I for one never had a problem with an FB I've played with. the bad ones were really easy to contain while the good ones didn't really fail will saves, or employed more complicated tricks.

DeltaEmil
2011-02-01, 07:02 AM
Aren't normal marbles enough to stop the frenzied berserker? No need for magic wands that can only be used by spellcasters and people with Use Magic Device. Extremely easy way to stop a frenzied berserker "dead". And it looks hilarious and demeaning when a frothing, crazy, warp spasm induced girl falls on her butt every round after round, until she can't frenzy anymore.

2xMachina
2011-02-01, 07:11 AM
Regular marbles may break, when stepped on by things that are too big/heavy.

DeltaEmil
2011-02-01, 07:24 AM
Then have iron marbles, later adamantine marbles, and for the end force marbles do the job.

Vangor
2011-02-01, 07:51 AM
I did not equate 'someone told me it doesn't work' from the OP wit a flat out ' it has been ruled it doesn't work in my group' . I meant to detail why in previous post, but got caught up with work sorry. I beg to disagree with that interpretation for the following reason: If Iron Heart Surge prevents you (RP wise) from 'attacking the nearest creature to the best of her ability', then so would attempting the Will save to end the Frenzy(or any other way to voluntarily end it), wouldn't it?

Except the will save to end is both a free action and an attempt for your character to wrest control. IHS, on the other hand, is a standard action which dismisses a condition, a buff in the eyes of the FB. Now, IHS could be used to remove other conditions, my only issue is with being in multiple ways a poor decision for combat for the FB.

LordBlades
2011-02-01, 08:04 AM
Except the will save to end is both a free action and an attempt for your character to wrest control. IHS, on the other hand, is a standard action which dismisses a condition, a buff in the eyes of the FB. Now, IHS could be used to remove other conditions, my only issue is with being in multiple ways a poor decision for combat for the FB.

The will save, is a free action which if successful dismisses a condition, a buff in the eyes of the FB.
Not too different IMHO.

TBH I think much depends of the interpretation of your DM regarding what 'to the best of your ability' means, but the rule should be equal regarding all the ways to willingly end the Frenzy (Will Save, IHS, losing the prerequisites for FB via self-inflicted Str. damage etc.)

Tyrandar
2011-02-01, 08:27 AM
My CG FB got lucky with Will Saves (had a pretty high modifier too), had access to action points, and tended to stand next to heavily armored/high HP party members. Just in case.

The CE FB was a bigger challenge. The one session we played, the rogue (me) and blackguard w/ an armor enhancement went Invisible, our pet Cleric cast Sanctuary and the dracolexi who didn't see this coming had her head merrily cleaved from her shoulders. :smallbiggrin:

The best spells and mundane items for locking down your FB have already been mentioned. Just pick what best suits your character, your budget and the party.

Slipperychicken
2011-02-01, 08:33 AM
Thanks for the quick replies everyone! [love this site...]


The OP explicitly stated that Iron Heart Surge doesn't work.


To be honest, I'm kind of torn about this. I haven't joined a group yet, and it looks like IHS *would* end the Frenzy if I could use it. I actually read that off of Eladriel's Guide: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105525


Bonus points if they can convince you to attack them with pickles (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0607.html).
Awesome. You just gave me the mental image of a red-faced, screaming barbarian, impotently tossing pickles at a wizard. :smallbiggrin:


Now let's just put a 6 on his intelligence so he never realizes that he can still get his power attack bonus if he wields a pickle two-handed...


Begin the day in somewhere relatively inescapable for your character and burn through Frenzy. You can now no longer accidentally trigger Frenzy when damaged, and you never have to concern yourself with hurting another player. All you need is a little healing and you are fine.


I'm mostly entirely doing FB for the Deathless Frenzy. Those bonuses are dwarfed by the ones I get from Bear Warrior. Thanks for the suggestion though.



But, if you have, say, a Geass on you that you can't attack your friends in Frenzy... The best way you could attack your friends is when you're not in a frenzy, so you need to IHS Frenzy off.
(Geass has no duration, so you can't IHS it away)

I like this. How much is a casting of Geass worth again?

hewhosaysfish
2011-02-01, 08:45 AM
I've only seen a FB in play from the outside so correct me if I'm remembering wrong but...

Doesn't Frenzy mean that you can't make checks on non-STR-based skills? Which is why Grease (or marbles) is a killer: because the FB can't make Balance checks.
This could potentially be abusedemployed creatively with Spot and Listen checks. Your allies just need to beat a DC 0 on their Hide/Move Silently.
Or with Sense Motive. Let you Frenzy run its course while you attack the "invisible hobgoblins" around you that your allies keep shouting about.

But this may be a little cheesy. And could be turned against you by every intelligent enemy you face.

Nyarai
2011-02-01, 08:51 AM
From what I'm reading, a geas would deal 3d6 points of damage to a noncompliant FB who continued to murder his party members. Per day. There's also a sickened effect, but Fort negates so I'm not sure how effective that would be, especially after you get Deathless Frenzy.

Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markofjustice.htm) seems like a somewhat better option. While applying the nauseated condition a la Belkar is a bit out of bounds for this spell, 50% chance to do nothing or -4 to attacks/saves/skill checks will go a bit further, I think.

Assuming you found a regular 9th level cleric, the spell would cost 450 gp (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsandservices.htm)). It's also a paladin spell, so it might be cheaper if you can find one to cast it.


Doesn't Frenzy mean that you can't make checks on non-STR-based skills?


While frenzied, the character cannot use any Charisma-, Dexterity-, or Intelligence-based skills (except for Intimidate), the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration.

So an FB can probably win against Bluff/Hide checks for non-scout/party faces. Marbles are still good.

Smeggedoff
2011-02-01, 09:33 AM
One of my friends was in a party containing two Frenzied Berserkers at some point. I believe the method they used was the simple hide check.

Something about Frenzied berserkers not being able to use any mental skills AT ALL while in frenzy. Thus they have no chance to detect someone making a hide check no matter how bad their roll is.

So this makes hide in plain sight really useful so you can just stand still with your hands in front of your eyes while everyone else dives for cover.

edit: Swordsage'd, stupid work, it's like they expect me to answer calls or something

Person_Man
2011-02-01, 09:45 AM
Many of the above options will work fine. You might also want to peruse the X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread. Honestly, it's not really not that hard to make the Will Save reliably if you spend a modest amount of gp boosting it.

The bigger issue, as herrhauptmann points out, is the fact that it's nearly impossible to prevent yourself from entering a Frenzy, because the DC is damage based. So it's highly likely that you will burn through your most important resource in the first 1-3ish combats each game day. Obviously that's not a big issue in many games. But it's an issue to be aware of, especially if your DM likes marathon sessions or "beat the clock" rescue the princess scenarios.

Slipperychicken
2011-02-01, 11:58 AM
Something about Frenzied berserkers not being able to use any mental skills AT ALL while in frenzy. Thus they have no chance to detect someone making a hide check no matter how bad their roll is.

So this makes hide in plain sight really useful so you can just stand still with your hands in front of your eyes while everyone else dives for cover.


But isn't Spot wisdom-based? or does one actually need to use Search to find HIPS? Not like a FB is putting ranks in spot anyway..


You might also want to peruse the X to Y (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=125732) thread. Honestly, it's not really not that hard to make the Will Save reliably if you spend a modest amount of gp boosting it.
So it's highly likely that you will burn through your most important resource in the first 1-3ish combats each game day. Obviously that's not a big issue in many games. But it's an issue to be aware of, especially if your DM likes marathon sessions or "beat the clock" rescue the princess scenarios.

Awesome thread. Steadfast Determination'll help quite a bit. If I have more combats than that to deal with, I might pick up Extra Rage.

Btw, is there any way to recover rages other than waiting 24 hours?

Merellis
2011-02-01, 12:06 PM
Spot is Wisdom based and isn't something you need to concentrate on. So, Surprise Round, hit from afar, Frenzy, Spot Check, Charge.

And as usual for any Frenzied Beserker thread that I post in. Try Druid with the Rage ACF, get some buff spells, wildshape into whatever you want, and go to town as deathless frenzying bear/lion/gator who has a good will save, and a ridiculous spot/listen for when the enemy tries to run.

Gnaeus
2011-02-01, 12:17 PM
From a roleplaying perspective, I think attacking everyone while Frenzied is part of the charm. Where is the fun in playing a bloodgorging, raging, limb-chopping berserker that has an on/off button? It makes him kinda feel like a robot (''The enemies are no more, I'll shut down our BARBARIAN-7000''). That's not why you went Frenzied Berserker.

From an OOC perspective, If a player said that attacking everyone while frenzied was part of the charm, I would interpret that as: "I am really hoping to kill some PCs. I'm not going to say that, I am just going to passive-aggressively set up my character to where I can kill you at any time and maintain deniability".

From a roleplaying perspective, I can't think of any reason why my characters would adventure with an indestructible killing machine that could turn on them at any minute. My good/neutral characters would just leave them behind (preferably while they are asleep) and find a new tank. My neutral/evil ones would kill the thing before it becomes a threat, and sell its stuff. The existence of a FB in most parties strains credibility a lot.

RaveingRonin
2011-02-01, 12:21 PM
Merciful your weapon.
It's a +1 weapon enchant, adds 1d6 damage at the cost that all damage becomes subdual. This effect can be suppressed at will.
So kill the enemies, and if you fail your will save to snap out of it, turn your weapon to "stun" and whack at the non-casters first/start with whoever has the most H.P. at the moment.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful

Have fun slaughter-izeing

Merellis
2011-02-01, 12:29 PM
Merciful your weapon.
It's a +1 weapon enchant, adds 1d6 damage at the cost that all damage becomes subdual. This effect can be suppressed at will.
So kill the enemies, and if you fail your will save to snap out of it, turn your weapon to "stun" and whack at the non-casters first/start with whoever has the most H.P. at the moment.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#merciful

Have fun slaughter-izeing

But would that be the 'best of his ability' to kill people percieved as enemies? If it can be turned off at will, how is the FB gonna focus on that if he can't even stop trying to kill them?

Ionizer
2011-02-01, 12:35 PM
Frenzy lasts 3+(Con Mod) rounds. You always target enemies first, only turning on allies if you run out of enemies. Sure, rocket tag, whatever, but are you really gibbing multiple enemies per round so that you have a long time while still frenzy-ing after all the bad guys are dead?

Also, you have to "attack to the best of your ability." I'd argue that a berserker would think that the "best of his ability" is attacking for the most damage, disregarding accuracy. So pump that full Power Attack and hope your buddies have good AC (assuming you subtract from your attack bonus, instead of AC via Shock trooper).

Also, your buddies can use any of the mook-making wondrous items to give you more targets if you fail your will save. Bag of Tricks (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#bagofTricks), Horn of Valhalla (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#hornofValhalla), Robe of Bones (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#robeofBones), even a Deck of Illusions (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/wondrousItems.htm#deckofIllusions) can buy you enough time to make the will save to end the frenzy (a couple Bags of Tricks is probably most cost-effective, though). One of your casters can even take the Summon Elemental Reserve feat to supply you with stuff to kill until you make the save.

By the way, I'm loving the picture in my head: The berserker is dripping with the blood of his enemies and stares at his friends, who immediately pull a fuzzy ball out of a bag and begin a game of "chase the badger." The howling, frothing-at-the-mouth barbarian chases random critters around until he calms down.

Person_Man
2011-02-01, 12:35 PM
Btw, is there any way to recover rages other than waiting 24 hours?

Not that I'm aware of. There is a variant mechanic in the PHBII that has Rage kick in below a certain hit point total, but it really sucks. There is also no way to recover Frenzy that I'm aware of.

But remember that Rage, by itself, is a fairly minor buff. In general it is only useful because it is an untyped bonus and because it can be used to trigger or gain entry into other more useful things (like Frenzy, Totem Rage, Frost Rage, Bear form, etc). And in most cases, you don't need more then 3ish Rage uses per day anyway, as you can save them for the important battles.

For these reasons the most optimal Barbarian builds (keeping in mind that it's a weak class to start with) tend to be something like Barbarian 1/Something Else 4/Prestige Class X. Something else can be Totemist, Paladin of Freedom, Binder, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, etc. For PrC you're obviously already aware of Frenzied Berserker, and you might want to look at Totem Rager, War Hulk, Deepwarden, Frostrager, Fist of the Forest, Runescarred Berserker, Landforged Walker, un-errata'd Weretouched Master, and/or 1 level of Bear Warrior.

Slipperychicken
2011-02-01, 01:16 PM
For these reasons the most optimal Barbarian builds (keeping in mind that it's a weak class to start with) tend to be something like Barbarian 1/Something Else 4/Prestige Class X. Something else can be Totemist, Paladin of Freedom, Binder, Warblade, Swordsage, Crusader, etc. For PrC you're obviously already aware of Frenzied Berserker, and you might want to look at Totem Rager, War Hulk, Deepwarden, Frostrager, Fist of the Forest, Runescarred Berserker, Landforged Walker, un-errata'd Weretouched Master, and/or 1 level of Bear Warrior.

Thanks for the advice!
[looks up all these classes]

With War Hulk, since Mighty Swing is a standard action, does that mean I can get it on a charge?

Reynard
2011-02-01, 01:18 PM
No, you don't get charge+standard action, you get charge+attack.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2011-02-01, 01:22 PM
Unless of course you are a tenth level warhulk then you can make how many ever mighty swings that you can make normal attacks ;)

Person_Man
2011-02-01, 01:59 PM
Thanks for the advice!
[looks up all these classes]

With War Hulk, since Mighty Swing is a standard action, does that mean I can get it on a charge?

Anyone can read the War Hulk on this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) on the WotC website (scroll down).

Mighty Swing is an attack action, not a standard action. So it can be used as part of a Charge or a full attack action (or a full attack at the end of a Charge if you have Pounce).

There are literally dozens of little quirks and optimization tricks with the War Hulk, so have fun Google-ing around. Just note that it requires Large size. The cheapest way to get that is with the Half-Ogre template (Races of Destiny, +2 LA).

2xMachina
2011-02-01, 02:25 PM
From what I'm reading, a geas would deal 3d6 points of damage to a noncompliant FB who continued to murder his party members. Per day. There's also a sickened effect, but Fort negates so I'm not sure how effective that would be, especially after you get Deathless Frenzy.

Mark of Justice (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/markofjustice.htm) seems like a somewhat better option. While applying the nauseated condition a la Belkar is a bit out of bounds for this spell, 50% chance to do nothing or -4 to attacks/saves/skill checks will go a bit further, I think.

Assuming you found a regular 9th level cleric, the spell would cost 450 gp (source (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/equipment/goodsandservices.htm)). It's also a paladin spell, so it might be cheaper if you can find one to cast it.





So an FB can probably win against Bluff/Hide checks for non-scout/party faces. Marbles are still good.

Hmm, yeah, MoJ is better. (Cheaper, and is actually something that doesn't have duration expressible in rounds.) (My mistake, on Geas duration. It's days/lvl, as Lesser)

But the goal is provide a reason to IHS the frenzy before attacking friends, so hopefully, you won't ever get hit by the negative effects. But just in case is good.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-01, 02:27 PM
Best answer: Don't take Frenzied Berserker.

Really, the class is mostly sub-par, and comes with a TPK button for when you eventually roll a nat 1 on your will save to avoid turning them all into a red mist. About the only thing it does is increase power attack, when you are already practically insta-gibbing anything on one hit anyways.

Any attempt to be able to shut you down can and will be used against you by the GM to negate your effectiveness in combat.

So yea... why bother with it in the first place? It's just bad table drama waiting to happen.

woodenbandman
2011-02-01, 02:29 PM
Alternately:

Dump will save, get your party to cast calm emotions on you.

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-01, 02:33 PM
Alternately:

Dump will save, get your party to cast calm emotions on you.

Nah, because then your opponent will just Dominate Person and gib the party with you.

Grynning
2011-02-01, 02:39 PM
Righteous Wrath really should work in a frenzy, since otherwise, it provides literally NO benefit except letting you qualify for Champion of Gwynharwhatsit. Ordinary rage doesn't stop you from dealing non-lethal damage or showing mercy at all. It's badly written feat.

If your party has a Beguiler, the Whelm line of spells could be moderately useful in shutting down the FB.

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-01, 02:48 PM
Easiest solution: Optimise charging.

No, seriously. Make charging a better source of damage than not charging.

Then have all your allies ready actions to move when you charge, and move sideways out of the straight line path.

Other options: Get blinded, swing at air. Have your allies buy a bag of tricks so you can maul animals for a while. Have them all hide behind a wall, and since you can't see anything to beat on, it ends. Have a natural hate for Walls (You are after all a barbarian), and make sure the caster has a way to make Walls of X.

G3N3R3L GHOST
2011-02-01, 04:44 PM
Best answer: Don't take Frenzied Berserker.

Any attempt to be able to shut you down can and will be used against you by the GM to negate your effectiveness in combat.

So yea... why bother with it in the first place? It's just bad table drama waiting to happen.

Why bother you ask? Because he wants to. The question isn't whither or not he wants to play a FB. The question is how to give him the best ability to not Party Kill. I have played quite a few frenzied berserkers in my day as they are one of my favorite classes. And I don't think I have ever killed a party member. Con to will save if FTW. Sure you may OCCASIONALLY roll a 1 or something. But by the time you are a mid leveled or higher frenzied you will probably have a good caster to heal, or nerf you in some way if you don't manage to calm down. I always liked to go for things like ok we are defending the castle wall from an enemy bombardment. You guys just hang out up here... I am gonna go down and show em up what's up with it.

Lhurgyof
2011-02-01, 07:53 PM
Anyone can read the War Hulk on this link (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a) on the WotC website (scroll down).

Mighty Swing is an attack action, not a standard action. So it can be used as part of a Charge or a full attack action (or a full attack at the end of a Charge if you have Pounce).

There are literally dozens of little quirks and optimization tricks with the War Hulk, so have fun Google-ing around. Just note that it requires Large size. The cheapest way to get that is with the Half-Ogre template (Races of Destiny, +2 LA).
It doesn't say what "No Time To Think" does.

term1nally s1ck
2011-02-01, 08:00 PM
You can't use any Int based skills, IIRC.

Reynard
2011-02-01, 08:04 PM
You can't use any Int based skills, IIRC.

Can't use any skills at all.

Lhurgyof
2011-02-01, 08:09 PM
Also, no base attack bonus progression? Lolwut? The only other class that does that is the survivor. :smallconfused:

Amphetryon
2011-02-01, 08:13 PM
Also, no base attack bonus progression? Lolwut? The only other class that does that is the survivor. :smallconfused:

No need for a BAB progression in a class that's based around getting really really huge.

Reynard
2011-02-01, 08:15 PM
Also, no base attack bonus progression? Lolwut? The only other class that does that is the survivor. :smallconfused:

No BAB, but +2 str a level.

You lose +16/+11/+6 etc etc, but gain massive damage.

Lhurgyof
2011-02-01, 08:25 PM
I guess, but you end up loosing out on 2 attacks, which decreases your average damage significantly.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-01, 08:26 PM
No need for a BAB progression in a class that's based around getting really really huge.

Just buy a skillful weapon. Grants you medium bab, as if a cleric of your HD. This allows you to fuel power attack.

Alleine
2011-02-01, 08:46 PM
Can't use any skills at all.

You're treated as having a 0 in all non-physical skills except Intimidate.

true_shinken
2011-02-01, 09:04 PM
Not that I'm aware of. There is a variant mechanic in the PHBII that has Rage kick in below a certain hit point total, but it really sucks. There is also no way to recover Frenzy that I'm aware of.

Action points should do it.

AtomicKitKat
2011-02-01, 09:06 PM
Corrections/additions:

Races of Destiny's Half-Ogre is a race, not a template. The template Half-Ogre is from Dragon 313(IIRC), and is +1 LA.

You really only need 4 levels of Warhulk. That lets you splat 3 squares per attack. The remaining 6 levels can be taken later, in Epic.

Cumberous Will(Savage Species). Go look up the Friendly Berserker.:smallbiggrin:

Also, have a vacuum Bag of Holding containing adamantine marbles. Activated by Telekinesis. When you run out of enemies, your caster or whoever activates the Bag to turn inside-out, sprawling you on your ass. After you calm down, activates it again to suck up the marbles.:smalltongue:

Analytica
2011-02-01, 09:15 PM
Take Leadership. Your cohort is a small child you are fiercely protective of, who represents everything good and innocent in the world. I imagine a bard or favored soul or something, maybe with the Saint template. It should be optimized for only one thing: calming and soothing you when you get too angry. As an extra bonus, it can buff and heal you and your party members. This arguably raises your tier, but you are fairly low-tier to begin with, and if it isn't abused I think something like this would be both flavorful and effective. You might leave control of it to another player or the DM if it feels like it makes you too powerful.

MeeposFire
2011-02-01, 09:25 PM
All of these solutions still are leaving too much to chance in my opinion. If at any time you do not get your spell or whatnot off somebody dies. Think of how many combats you will be in. Your chances of failing once (and thus a substantial risk of losing one or more party members) is very good. And this is not counting on the times that your frenzy goes off when you did not plan to. Remember all it would take is one shot from a sniper to set you off with nobody ready for you.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-01, 09:32 PM
Take Leadership. Your cohort is a small child you are fiercely protective of, who represents everything good and innocent in the world. I imagine a bard or favored soul or something, maybe with the Saint template. It should be optimized for only one thing: calming and soothing you when you get too angry. As an extra bonus, it can buff and heal you and your party members. This arguably raises your tier, but you are fairly low-tier to begin with, and if it isn't abused I think something like this would be both flavorful and effective. You might leave control of it to another player or the DM if it feels like it makes you too powerful.


"Please Daddy, don't hurt me!" *calm emotions*
"Daddy, remember that song that Mommy used to sing?"

Ooh, that's evil.
I like it.

Meepo, I've said that every time some does a FB thread. Particularly in regards to starting a frenzy as a result of damage. Say hit by a really good trap, or enemies get you with a surprise round from cover/invisibility.
That creates will saves much harder to pass than the DC 20 to END a frenzy, and if you go first in initiative, you start killing first. If there's enemies in sight, great. If not, well all your allies are flatfooted.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-01, 10:09 PM
Careful positioning and your partymembers armed with Wands of Hold Person

Codemus
2011-02-01, 10:25 PM
Straightjacket? Preferably made of adamantine. Make it magical so it can be activated by remote by the rest of the party. They can just shout the activation word, or push a button, and bam: Unleash the beast. :smallwink:

MeeposFire
2011-02-01, 10:26 PM
Careful positioning and your partymembers armed with Wands of Hold Person

Does not help the sniper situation since the berserker can still possibly go first and kill. Further a party of just people with hold person (or whatever wands) spreading themselves out (which may not be possible) is just so contrived that it really speaks to the idiocy of the design of this prc. There really should have been a different mechanic killing the party accidentally is just terrible in a game that is supposed to be team oriented.

herrhauptmann
2011-02-01, 11:43 PM
Does not help the sniper situation since the berserker can still possibly go first and kill. Further a party of just people with hold person (or whatever wands) spreading themselves out (which may not be possible) is just so contrived that it really speaks to the idiocy of the design of this prc. There really should have been a different mechanic killing the party accidentally is just terrible in a game that is supposed to be team oriented.

It's the same as most of the other ideas. Calm emotions, marbles, grease etc.

To the OP, good luck with your FB. Let us know how it turned out once you start playing.

Slipperychicken
2011-02-01, 11:52 PM
It's the same as most of the other ideas. Calm emotions, marbles, grease etc.

To the OP, good luck with your FB. Let us know how it turned out once you start playing.

Will do. The campaign's going to start a few levels before I take FB 1, but I'll try to keep you guys posted if it isn't thread necromancy by then.

Denomar
2011-02-01, 11:56 PM
Quite honestly. You Can't.

Its part of the class, its meant to be a drawback to balance out against the "cannot die and can wrestle dieties" part.

If the chance that you're going to butcher your party is something that you or your party can't stomach then honestly you should probably play a different class.

I know that's not what you want to hear, and may even sound harsh, but if I play a frenzied berserker and I freak out after the enemy's dead then I will go and put anything breathing nearby into the ground.

Perhaps its your party that should be thinking of control methods and not yourself. At the simplest phase grease an help. At a certain level flight also works.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-02, 12:07 AM
Quite honestly. You Can't.
Truer words. It's meant to be a handicap. It's meant to be annoying. It's meant to be risky.

LordBlades
2011-02-02, 02:17 AM
Truer words. It's meant to be a handicap. It's meant to be annoying. It's meant to be risky.

Building a class that has a built-in mechanic for PK (barring optimization to negate it) in a cooperative game is just bad game design to me.
Playing a FB without taking the appropriate measures to negate the kill allies part is like playing a Chaotic Stupid character that kills whoever he feels like(including party members) and then hides behind the 'that's what my character would do' line. Namely, something a sane char would never adventure with.

Also, from a mechanic point of view, it's a very big drawback for a class that's not so great TBH. Runescarred Berserker for example is way better from an optimization point of view, and the 'cannot die' part is a) cannot die to damage and frankly, at lvl 15+ ppl will be killing you with no-save-just-die effects, not damage and b) can be replicated by casters at virtually no drawback.