The Universe Speaks and I Speak Back!(3.5 Truenaming Fix)(WIP)

[Halna LeGavilk]

Late at night, if you listen very, very carefully, you can hear the universe speaking to us in its own language. I speak back.
-Willorn, Truespeaker

The Universe speaks, and it has a language. That language is Truespeak. A chosen few can hear the universe and speak back to it, ask, or commanding, it to change to their will. These people are Truespeakers.

Abilities: Intelligence is most important for the Truespeaker, as it determines how powerful they effects they speak are.

Role: The Truespeaker will probably be a blaster, though they can buff and do battlefield control, and at later levels, can heal. Truespeakers can also serve as the party face, due to their high social skills and some bonus abilities.

Background: Most Truespeakers learn their trade through careful study and training, though a few are born to do it.

Organization: Few. Most Truespeakers are loners.

Alignment: Due to the nature of their training, most Truespeakers are lawful, though other alignments are not uncommon.

Races: Any race can become a Truespeaker, though Humans and Gray Elves are particularly suited for it.

Religion: There is no official Truespeaker religion, because most aren't religious. Those who are generally worship Boccob or Pelor, though.

Other Classes: All classes work equally well with the Truespeaker.

Hit Die: d6
Starting Gold: 3d8x10 (135 gp)
Truespeaker
{table=head]Level|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

1st|
+0|
+0|
+0|
+2|Truespeaking, Universal Morality I, Bonus Feat, Truewords, Monosyllabic, Speak the Language

2nd|
+1|
+0|
+0|
+3|

3rd|
+1|
+1|
+1|
+3|Duosyllabic

4th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|

5th|
+2|
+1|
+1|
+4|Bonus Feat, Syllabic Corruption

6th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|

7th|
+3|
+2|
+2|
+5|Trisyllabic

8th|
+4|
+2|
+2|
+6|

9th|
+4|
+3|
+3|
+6|

10th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Bonus Feat, Universal Morality II,

11th|
+5|
+3|
+3|
+7|Quadrisyllabic

12th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|

13th|
+6/+1|
+4|
+4|
+8|

14th|
+7/+2|
+4|
+4|
+9|

15th|
+7/+2|
+5|
+5|
+9|Bonus Feat, Truesentances. Pentisyllabic

16th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|

17th|
+8/+3|
+5|
+5|
+10|

18th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|Hexisyllabic

19th|
+9/+4|
+6|
+6|
+11|

20th|
+10/+5|
+6|
+6|
+12|Bonus Feat, Universal Morality III, Second Language, [/table]
Class Skills: Bluff (Cha); Decipher Script (Int); Diplomacy (Cha); Forgery (Int); Gather Information (Cha); Intimidate (Cha); Knowledge (All skills, taken individually) (Int); Listen (Wis); Sense Motive (Wis); Speak Language; Truespeak (Int)
Skill Points at First Level (4+Int Mod)x4
Skill Point at Each Additional Level 4+Int Mod

Class Features

Truespeaking(Ex): A Truespeaker learns how to Truespeak (hence the name.) Truespeaking requires a Truespeak check to properly speak the words- failure results in a variety of effects based on the individual Syllable spoken. The Truespeaker may speak as much as he wants, per day. However, he knows only a limited number of syllables. He starts with the knowledge of 4+Int Mod Syllables and gains the knowledge of 2 more syllables every class level.

Truespeaking requires a standard action, which does not provoke an attack of opportunity. Syllables are Extraordinary, which means they aren't effected by an antimagic field. Something that is Nameless, however, cannot be effected by Truespeaking. Some creatures of Lost Names, which mean they are harder to effect (the Truespeak check DC increases). Truewords are made up of multiple Syllables. Using Truewords has an increased Truespeak DC, but also an increased Save DC and more effects. However, the penalty for each failed check is worse.

When a check is failed, a penalty, called a Backlash, is applied. A backlash is a penalty, a punishment by the universe for being incorrect, ranging from damage, to eternal imprisonment.

The save DC of all Truewords is equal to (10+1/2 Truespeaker Level+1/2 Int Mod+the number of Syllables). To speak a Trueword, the Truespeaker must know a number of languages equal to the number of syllables in the word.

Universal Morality(Ex): In the constant communication with the Universe, a Truespeaker gains some of its traits. At level 1, for any effects that use alignment (Detect Magic, Holy Word, Dictum, Blasphemy, etc) the Truespeaker is considered to be True Neutral.

At level 10, the Truenamer is considered to be whatever alignment is most helpful to him at the time (Lawful if Dictum is cast at him, Good if Holy Word is cast at him, etc). When his alignment is detected, he always reads as the alignment of the detecter.

At level 20, the Truespeaker is considered to no longer have an alignment, and all effects that depend on alignment fail when used against him. When his alignment is detected, the detecter must succeed on a will save, with a DC equal (10+1/2 Truespeaker level+Int Mod) or take 1d6 points of wisdom damage, as their minds cannot handle the True Morality of the Universe. The Truespeaker may choose to forgo this effect, and if they do, or if the detector succeeds on the will save, the Truespeaker is detected as the alignment of the detector.

Bonus Feat: At 1st, 5th, and every five levels thereafter, the Truespeaker gains a bonus feat selected from the Truespeaker Feat list below.

Truewords(Ex): The Truespeaker is trained to take Syllables and put them together, forming Truewords. Truewords are more powerful to say than a single Syllable, and therefore take longer to say, and are more difficult to say. The Truespeak DC of a Trueword is equal to the highest DC of the all of the Syllables, plus the DC of each other Syllable/4, and round the end result up. For example, if the Trueword was comprised of Airn, Oort, Liko, Telas, and Zin, Telas has the highest DC, at DC 23. So, you would have 23+(10/4)+(16/4)+(19/4)+(10/4), for a total DC of 37. However, if the DC is failed, the Backlash is the total Backlash of all of the Syllables. Saying a Trueword is a full round action.

-Syllabic: At level 1, the Truespeaker can only speak one Syllable per Trueword, and has access to 1st level Syllables. Duosyllabic allows two Syllables/Trueword, Trisyllabic allows three, etc. Whenever the Truespeaker gains the ability to add another level of Syllables to their repertoire, that is, at Duosyllabic they get 2nd level Syllables, at Trisyllabic they get 3rd level Syllables, etc.

Speak the Language: A Truenamer gains a bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, Gather Information, Intimidate, and Sense Motive checks equal to his intelligence modifier.

Syllabic Corruption(Ex): At level 5, the Truespeaker can corrupt the Syllables, making them easier to speak, but the Universe doesn't like the corruption of its language, and punishes the Truespeaker. The Truespeaker can "Corrupt" the Syllables, lowering the DC of the Truespeak check by a number up to their Truespeaker level, a number of times per day equal to their Truespeaker level-4. The Truespeaker takes xd6 damage, where x is the amount the DC is lowered by. This damage cannot be mitigated in anyway, nor can it be transferred or delayed, even by another Syllable.

Truesentences(Ex): At level 15, the Truespeaker has learned to control Truespeaking to the point that they can say whole sentences in it. Truesentances can contain a number of Truewords equal to (Truespeaker level/3) and can say Truesentances a number of times per day equal to (Truespeaker level/2). The DC of all Truewords in the sentence is raised by 10. If a Truespeaker fails to say a Trueword in the sentence, the sentence continues, but that effect doesn't happen, and the Truespeaker still takes the Backlash, but the sentence continues. At the end of the sentence, the Truespeaker must make a DC 40 Truespeak check or the sentence fails and he takes the Backlash of all of the Truewords, including Backlash from words he had already failed.

Second Language(Ex): At level 20, the Truespeaker has done so much Truespeaking, it has become like a second language to him. The Truespeaker can take 10 on Truespeak checks, except when in combat or any situation that would require a spellcaster to make a Concentration check (holding onto a cliff, being attacked, etc).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Truespeak (Int)
Trained only

Truespeak is different than most skills.
-Truespeak cannot be modified with magic items, magical effects, item familiars, or other effects.
-Truespeak can only be gained by classes that have Truespeak has a class skill. Only through classes than gain Syllables can grant Truespeak.
-A natural 1 on a Truespeak check is always a failure. A natural 20 is not an automatic success.
-You cannot take 10 or 20 on Truespeak checks, except through the Truespeaker's Second Language ability.
-Synergy: 5 ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) gains you +2 to Truespeak checks. For every 3 languages you know, you gain an additional +2 to Truespeak, to a max of +10.

[Aetholus]

How does True-speaking work exactly?

[Nopraptor]

I really like how you described the fluff but the pretty complex math descirbed in words makes my head want to explode :smalleek:

may I haz equationz?

[Kobold-Bard]

http://everyboty.net/shared/emotipix/interested/peter%20griffin%20-%20go%20on...%20.jpg

This looks very interesting, but without seeing the syllables, this is pretty useless.

[Temassasin]

http://everyboty.net/shared/emotipix/interested/peter%20griffin%20-%20go%20on...%20.jpg

This looks very interesting, but without seeing the syllables, this is pretty useless.

i agree with bard

[Halna LeGavilk]

http://everyboty.net/shared/emotipix/interested/peter%20griffin%20-%20go%20on...%20.jpg

This looks very interesting, but without seeing the syllables, this is pretty useless.

Well, if you all would STOP POSTING, I'd get to them. :smallfurious::smallbiggrin:

EDIT: Also, yes, you may haz questions.

[Kobold-Bard]

Question: Does the 20th level Universal Morality ability override the 10th level one (you go from counting as whichever alignment is best to being immune), or do they stack (you're immune unless it's beneficial)?

[Halna LeGavilk]

It's totally immune. I can't imagine a situation where alignment is necessarily helpful though.

[Kobold-Bard]

It's totally immune. I can't imagine a situation where alignment is necessarily helpful though.

I'm sure there is at least one spell that benefits you based on alignment, but I can't think of one now. Hmm....

[Halna LeGavilk]

Before I post the Syllables (which'll still be in awhile), I wanna say that the DCs are high, but I'm assuming that the Truespeaker puts all of his focus towards Truespeaking.

[Kobold-Bard]

Before I post the Syllables (which'll still be in awhile), I wanna say that the DCs are high, but I'm assuming that the Truespeaker puts all of his focus towards Truespeaking.

What do you mean all their focus? Max ranks & Skill Focus (Truespeak)? Or something more. If they're especially high the failure on a natural 1 seems a touch unfair.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Yeah. The average DC for a level 3 Syllable is low to mid thirties. The highest level 6 is at 70. Because one of the bonus feats you can get, which gives an untyped +2 to Truespeaking. Plus, I forgot, it synergizes with some stuff. Heh.

[Kobold-Bard]

Yeah. The average DC for a level 3 Syllable is low to mid thirties. The highest level 6 is at 70. Because one of the bonus feats you can get, which gives an untyped +2 to Truespeaking. Plus, I forgot, it synergizes with some stuff. Heh.

Wow. I'll wait until I've read them, but that does not sound good.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Syllables
(TL=Truespeaker levels)

Level 1
Aak- Deal Fire damage/Take Frost damage
Iyt-Deal Acid damage/Take acid damage

Level 2
Azax- Deal acid damage/Take acid damage
Baf- AC bonus/AC penalty
Bors- As Summon Monster III/As Summon Monster III, but creature is hostile.
Daop- Truespeaker heals target/Truespeaker takes damage

Level 3
Aert- Truespeaker can fly/Truespeaker takes force damage
Airn- Target take frost damage/Truespeaker takes frost damage
Blet- Entangles enemy in sticky goo/Truespeaker is immobilized.
Eltix- Target gains DR/Enemies gain a bonus damage against Truespeaker.
Ezol- Truespeaker heals target/Truespeaker takes damage
Fac- Target gain Fast Healing/Truespeaker takes damage every round
Hik- Target can breathe underwater/Truespeaker drowns, takes con damage

Level 4
Aiorn- Teleportation/Random teleportaton
Ezerk- As Summon Monster VI/As Summon Monster VI, but creature is hostile.
Fyd- As Regnerate/Truespeaker loses limbs
Hez- Target takes piercing damge/Truespeaker takes piercing damage
Iad- Target planeshifts/Truespeaker planeshifts to a random plane; Iad may not be used for 24 hours.

Level 5
Gir- Target takes force and slashing damage/Truespeaker takes force and slashing damage
Hert- As Summon Monster IX/As Summon Monster IX, but creature is hostile.
Jiw- Truespeaker is protected from scrying/All enemies can detect Truespeaker

Level 6
CIf- Instantly kills target/Truespeaker dies
Cogh- Resurrects target/Truespeaker dies, cannot be resurrected
Jad- Target's soul is stolen and consumed by Truespeaker/Truespeaker's soul is obliterated.


Aak (1)
DC: 16
Range: Long (400 ft+40 ft/Truespeaker Level)
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: No
Effect: The target of the spell takes 1d12 fire damage, plus an additional 1d12 fire damage/4 TL
Backlash: The Truespeaker takes 1d12 cold damage, plus an additional 1d12 cold damage/4 TL

Aert (3)
DC: 30
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 min/TL
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: The Truespeaker can fly at 60 feet per round with perfect maneuverability.
Backlash: The Truespeaker takes 1d10 force damage/4 TL as their body is smashed into the ground.

Aert (3)
DC: 30
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 min/TL
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: The Truespeaker can fly at 60 feet per round with perfect maneuverability.
Backlash: The Truespeaker takes 1d10 force damage/4 TL as their body is smashed into the ground.

Airn (3)
DC: 31
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 TL)
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: No
Effect: The target takes 1d4 frost damage/TL
Backlash: The Truespeaker takes 1d4 fire damage/TL

Aiorn (4)
DC: 41
Range: Personal
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: The Truespeaker teleports to an area up to 30 miles/TL away. For every two TL, he can bring an additional person, or 50 pounds of material, with him.
Backlash: The Truespeaker, and everyone he would have teleported, is teleported 4d100 miles in a random direction. Resolve independently for each person or 50 pounds of material being transported.


Azax (2)
DC: 24
Range: Medium (100 ft+10 ft/TL)
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: No
Effect: Target takes 3d12 damage, of a type of the Truespeakers choice (can be piercing, bludgeoning, slashing, fire, frost, sonic, electric, acid, or force.)
Backlash: The Truespeaker takes 3d12 untyped damage.


Baf (2)
DC: 26
Range: Personal
Duration: 1 hr/TL
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: The Truespeaker gains a deflection bonus to AC equal to their TL.
Backlash: The Truespeaker gains a penalty to their AC equal to their TL.


Blet (3)
DC: 35
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 TL)
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: Yes (reflex negates)
Effect: The target is immobilized as sticky goo entangles their body. The goo can be cut through by an ally, though the goo has AC 15 and 20 HP/square.
Backlash: The Truespeaker is immobilized as sticky goo entangles their body. The goo can be cut through by an ally, though the goo has AC 15 and 20 HP/square.

Bors (2)
DC: 29
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 TL)
Duration: 2 rounds/TL or until death
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: As Summon Monster III, except with the range and duration listed here.
Backlash: As Summon Monster III, except with the range and duration listed here, and, in addition, the DM chooses the specific monster and it is hostile to the Truespeaker.

Cif (6)
DC: 65
Range: Medium (100 ft+10ft/TL)
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: Yes (Fort partial)
Effect: The target dies, and cannot be resurrected for a number of weeks equal to the Truespeaker's TL. If the target makes the save, then they lose 10d10 health, though they cannot go below 0 HP from this loss of health.
Backlash: The Truespeaker dies, and cannot be resurrected for a number of weeks equal to the Truespeaker's TL. If the target makes the save, then they lose 10d10 health, though they cannot go below 0 HP from this loss of health.

Cogh (6)
DC: 65
Range: Close (25+5 ft/2 TL)
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: The target of the spell is brought back to life, at half HP. Otherwise, they come back exactly as they died, except for equipment. No body is needed for this.
Backlash: The Truespeaker dies and their soul is trapped outside the universe, being taught a lesson in messing with life. They automatically resurrect after a number of weeks equal to (21-TL; min 1). After this, they take 1d4-1 wis drain, min 0.

Daop (2)
DC: 28
Range: Close (25 ft+5 ft/2 TL)
Duration: Instant
Saving Throw: No (Harmless)
Effect: The target heals 1d12+1/TL (max 15) damage. This healing is whichever is best for the target, negative or positive energy.
Backlash: The Truespeaker is damaged for 1d12+1/TL (max 15) damage. This damage is whichever is worse for the Truenamer, positive or negative energy.

[Halna LeGavilk]

I'm done for tonight, as it kind of hurts my brain to do this for too long. :smallbiggrin: Will keep ya'll updated.

[Temassasin]

the level six words are kinda scary

[Kuma Kode]

Chatter [Best Case Scenario]
Level 1 Human Truespeaker

4 Ranks + 4 Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat = +13
Chance to Succeed at Rank 1 Syllable [Aak] = 90%
Level 3 Human Truespeaker

6 Ranks + 4 Base Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat +2 Synergy [Knowledge] = +15
Chance to Succeed at Rank 1 Syllable [Aak] = 95%
Chance to Succeed at Rank 2 Syllable [Azax] = 70%
Level 7 Human Truespeaker

10 Ranks + 4 Base Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat +2 Synergy [Knowledge] +1 Headband of Intellect = +20
Chance to Succeed at Rank 1 Syllable [Aak] = 95%
Chance to Succeed at Rank 2 Syllable [Azax] = 90%
Chance to Succeed at Rank 3 Syllable [Aert] = 60%
Level 20 Human Truespeaker

23 Ranks + 6 Base Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat +2 Synergy [Knowledge] +10 Languages +4 Headband of Intellect +3 Manual = +53
Chance to Succeed at Rank 6 Syllable [Cogh] = 45%

If you start off strong, you can whip these things out without fail. But as you can see, your chances of succeeding on your newest power steadily drops no matter what you do. The more levels you take in this class, the more useless you become at what you do.

These are also the lowest DCs I could find for a syllable of that level. Your other new powers can be up to 25% lower.

Seriously? 45%? That is with the best stuff money can buy, every possible synergy maxed out, every feat, full level, 18 starting intelligence, and every point of ability increase focused on Intelligence. At level 20, you are more likely to fail your newest powers than you are to succeed, best case scenario.

Chance that a cleric or wizard will succeed in casting his newest power: 100%.

You managed to avoid the problem where if you set the DCs too low, someone who focuses to hard on the skill breaks the class. Unfortunately, that served to amplify the other half of the problem with the original truenamer: If you don't devote everything to the skill, you will find it almost impossible to contribute, especially since you now eat a buttload of damage or even outright die if you fail your check. Considering no matter what you do, your chance of success can never rise above 95%, that's a bit insane.

It's admirable, and it has cool stuff, but the core mechanic remains broken.

[ForzaFiori]

Chatter [Best Case Scenario]
Level 1 Human Truespeaker

4 Ranks + 4 Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat = +13
Chance to Succeed at Rank 1 Syllable [Aak] = 90%
Level 3 Human Truespeaker

6 Ranks + 4 Base Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat +2 Synergy [Knowledge] = +15
Chance to Succeed at Rank 1 Syllable [Aak] = 95%
Chance to Succeed at Rank 2 Syllable [Azax] = 70%
Level 7 Human Truespeaker

10 Ranks + 4 Base Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat +2 Synergy [Knowledge] +1 Headband of Intellect = +20
Chance to Succeed at Rank 1 Syllable [Aak] = 95%
Chance to Succeed at Rank 2 Syllable [Azax] = 90%
Chance to Succeed at Rank 3 Syllable [Aert] = 60%
Level 20 Human Truespeaker

23 Ranks + 6 Base Int + 3 Skill Focus + 2 Feat +2 Synergy [Knowledge] +10 Languages +4 Headband of Intellect +3 Manual = +53
Chance to Succeed at Rank 6 Syllable [Cogh] = 45%

If you start off strong, you can whip these things out without fail. But as you can see, your chances of succeeding on your newest power steadily drops no matter what you do. The more levels you take in this class, the more useless you become at what you do.

These are also the lowest DCs I could find for a syllable of that level. Your other new powers can be up to 25% lower.

Seriously? 45%? That is with the best stuff money can buy, every possible synergy maxed out, every feat, full level, 18 starting intelligence, and every point of ability increase focused on Intelligence. At level 20, you are more likely to fail your newest powers than you are to succeed, best case scenario.

Chance that a cleric or wizard will succeed in casting his newest power: 100%.

You managed to avoid the problem where if you set the DCs too low, someone who focuses to hard on the skill breaks the class. Unfortunately, that served to amplify the other half of the problem with the original truenamer: If you don't devote everything to the skill, you will find it almost impossible to contribute, especially since you now eat a buttload of damage or even outright die if you fail your check. Considering no matter what you do, your chance of success can never rise above 95%, that's a bit insane.

It's admirable, and it has cool stuff, but the core mechanic remains broken.

You forgot to account for the language synergy bonus at low levels. Not that it unbreaks the class or anything like that, but it might raise the abilities of the class at lower levels.

[Kuma Kode]

You forgot to account for the language synergy bonus at low levels. Not that it unbreaks the class or anything like that, but it might raise the abilities of the class at lower levels. I forgot the additional languages for an intelligence bonus, but the ones gained from skill points are rather slow to accrue. It might help, but it still doesn't alleviate the problem. I think at 1st level the most you could get out of it is +2, with it becoming +3 at 2nd level and an additional +1 every 3 levels afterward (assuming you never run out of languages).

[The Tygre]

I think Kuma Kode's nailed this one. It's a great class, and I think it's got a lot of potential, but absurdly high casting DCs were the big flaw of original truenaming.

[Vauron]

I bet that the feat he mentioned stacks with itself, so that could be another +22 to Truespeak.

[Kuma Kode]

I bet that the feat he mentioned stacks with itself, so that could be another +22 to Truespeak. Well there's usually a feat that gives +2 to two skills and you can get Skill Focus on top of that, for a total +5. Skill feats do not stack with themselves, so if this one did, it would be unique.

Even if it did, it becomes a ridiculous feat tax. A character should not need to max out three skills and consume all their feats for one skill just to be able to use their core class features reliably. That just sounds like awesomely bad design.

The skill does not need more ways to increase it, because it widens the divide between brokenly useless and brokenly good, like the WoTC truenamer. It needs less modifiers, so the few you can get become more useful and the skill's DCs can be more standardized.

The Truespeaker needs to be able to meet its DCs at least most of the time with max ranks and decent, but not maxed, Intelligence. Feats should be useful and rewarding to take but not mandatory.

Think of it like the Warlock. Both essentially have unlimited use of abilities, but the truespeaker has more available powers and can actually buff and heal. In return, the truespeaker is not guaranteed to succeed all the time. The class needs to be able to make that an even trade.

[Halna LeGavilk]

You managed to avoid the problem where if you set the DCs too low, someone who focuses to hard on the skill breaks the class. Unfortunately, that served to amplify the other half of the problem with the original truenamer: If you don't devote everything to the skill, you will find it almost impossible to contribute, especially since you now eat a buttload of damage or even outright die if you fail your check. Considering no matter what you do, your chance of success can never rise above 95%, that's a bit insane.

It's admirable, and it has cool stuff, but the core mechanic remains broken.

See, that's exactly what I was worried about. Tweaking the actual DCs will come last. First on my list is actually writing everything down, then I can get on with the whole shebang. :smallbiggrin:

And, I mean, I still have... 69, 70 Syllables still to write. I'd like to work on this class more, but with my course-load, a new girlfriend, and the play I'm in, it's difficult to get the time required. Next week though, should come a big amount of stuff, including rejiggering of DCs, a bunch of new Syllables, etc. And, those are probably the most powerful Syllables I plan to make. I'm trying to give it a feel of Magic is Dangerous. So, that's where I was going for the class.

[GnomeWorks]

I still fail to understand why folk insist on keeping the Truename system a skill-based system.

Make it a class feature, much like Bardic Knowledge.

This solves all of these silly maths problems, or - at the very least - makes them infinitely easier to resolve.

[Kuma Kode]

I still fail to understand why folk insist on keeping the Truename system a skill-based system. I was thinking about that earlier, and I'm not fully sure. It does have the benefits of allowing other classes to share in it, a bit, I guess, if that's a benefit.

I think the primary reason truenaming is a skill is because of novelty. Invocations have their own unique feel, binding has a different feel and its own mechanics, shadowcasting is a different take on spells that transitions through the types of spellcasting actions and has a family arrangement, and truenaming is a skill check system. Without the skill check system, truenamers become a somewhat clunky sorcerer.

[Vauron]

I'm trying to give it a feel of Magic is Dangerous. So, that's where I was going for the class.

Am I right in guessing that this is intended for a campaign where fullcasters are under homebrew restrictions, or are flat out banned? I bolded the part that made me belief that.

[GnomeWorks]

I was thinking about that earlier, and I'm not fully sure. It does have the benefits of allowing other classes to share in it, a bit, I guess, if that's a benefit.

I don't see why it should be. You can't put ranks in Spellcraft as a fighter to gain Wizard- or Sorcerer-type spellcasting; why should you be able to improve your ability with Truenaming by methods other than improving a relevant class?


I think the primary reason truenaming is a skill is because of novelty.

A silly reason, to be sure. Mechanics should have more reason to exist than just to be different.


Invocations have their own unique feel, binding has a different feel and its own mechanics, shadowcasting is a different take on spells that transitions through the types of spellcasting actions and has a family arrangement, and truenaming is a skill check system. Without the skill check system, truenamers become a somewhat clunky sorcerer.

Changing it from a skill-based system to a check-based system (with the bonus for the check based on your class level) is a small enough change that doesn't, IMO, change the overall feel of the class, and has the added benefit of removing almost the entirety of these awkward maths shenanigans.

Seriously, if the "unique feel" for truenaming is because of the check, what difference does it make if the check is a level-based check or a skill-based check? You're still making a roll. That's (one of) the key thing(s) that differentiates it from standard casting systems.

[Halna LeGavilk]

I still fail to understand why folk insist on keeping the Truename system a skill-based system.

Make it a class feature, much like Bardic Knowledge.

This solves all of these silly maths problems, or - at the very least - makes them infinitely easier to resolve.

Okay, I do see where you're coming from, but if you wanna discuss Truenaming in general, please start another thread about it in the other forums. If you want to discuss my class, please phrase it in terms that make it seem like that.

Now, if you're asking me about my basic design philosophy, I suppose it's because the original Truenamer is like that. I mean, I don't have a particular reason, other than that I like skill-based systems. I mean, I could do a straight level check, but I feel that it's not true to the original Truenaming.


Am I right in guessing that this is intended for a campaign where fullcasters are under homebrew restrictions, or are flat out banned? I bolded the part that made me belief that.

Well, yeah. I... kinda want it to be on par with the fullcasters, but also not kinda. It's meant for grittier campaigns, campaigns in which one's head exploding isn't a big setback.

Also, I found the idea of Magic is Dangerous to be awesome.

[GnomeWorks]

Okay, I do see where you're coming from, but if you wanna discuss Truenaming in general, please start another thread about it in the other forums. If you want to discuss my class, please phrase it in terms that make it seem like that.

Now, if you're asking me about my basic design philosophy, I suppose it's because the original Truenamer is like that. I mean, I don't have a particular reason, other than that I like skill-based systems. I mean, I could do a straight level check, but I feel that it's not true to the original Truenaming.

...if the thing you're writing here is based off Truenaming - which you yourself state - then a general statement about Truenaming (ie, make the checks level-based rather than skill-based) also applies to the work you've done here.

No, going to a level-based check isn't true to the original system. The original system also sucks, and is subject to ridiculous maths shenanigans as illustrated in posts above. Deviation from the RAW, in regards to truenaming, is the name of the game, to make the concept work.

Mechanics should have a reason to exist. Tradition is a pretty crap reason, IMO.

Making any kind of casting system skill-based is asking for trouble, as well illustrated by the posts above in which all sorts of mechanical cheese for that sort of thing is explained. It becomes impossible to design such a system fairly because the DCs a character can hit vary so ridiculously wildly based upon the kinds of items they're carrying. If a standard character can hit a 20 reasonably, but a powergamed one can hit a 70, where do you set it? 20, so standard characters can be reasonable, in which case any kind of optimization results in a ridiculously overpowered character? 70, so that the powergamer isn't overpowered, but punishes players that aren't interesting in writing a master's thesis for a character? Somewhere in-between, which doesn't alleviate either problem?

Skill-based casting is just not feasible in d20. Too easily abused. Level-based checks are far simpler, carry the same flavor connotations, and are far easier to design for and around.

[Kobold-Bard]

...

Also, I found the idea of Magic is Dangerous to be awesome.

It is, but casters risk nothing when using their power so stuff like this Truenamer is incompatible with normal D&D.

I do recommend you look at Zeta Kai's Bio-Mage for casters in a "Magic is dangerous" scenario; it literally spends it's lifeforce when casting spells. Very cool.

[Halna LeGavilk]

...if the thing you're writing here is based off Truenaming - which you yourself state - then a general statement about Truenaming (ie, make the checks level-based rather than skill-based) also applies to the work you've done here.

Well, it is a Truenaming Fix. Just saying.


No, going to a level-based check isn't true to the original system. The original system also sucks, and is subject to ridiculous maths shenanigans as illustrated in posts above. Deviation from the RAW, in regards to truenaming, is the name of the game, to make the concept work.


1. Exactly, which is why I'm not doing it.
2. The original system isn't broken because it's based off of skills, but rather that the DCs were based off of HD, if I recall correctly (I probably don't.)
3. I, and others that I know, like ridiculous math shenanigans. I'm not designing it for everyone. I'm designing it for people who like math kind of stuff.




Making any kind of casting system skill-based is asking for trouble, as well illustrated by the posts above in which all sorts of mechanical cheese for that sort of thing is explained. It becomes impossible to design such a system fairly because the DCs a character can hit vary so ridiculously wildly based upon the kinds of items they're carrying. If a standard character can hit a 20 reasonably, but a powergamed one can hit a 70, where do you set it? 20, so standard characters can be reasonable, in which case any kind of optimization results in a ridiculously overpowered character? 70, so that the powergamer isn't overpowered, but punishes players that aren't interesting in writing a master's thesis for a character? Somewhere in-between, which doesn't alleviate either problem?

Well, an optimized Barbarian or wizard or sorceror can deal thousands of damage at once. Looking at what an optimized character can do, at that point, it doesn't really matter. And, once again, you're not helping me at all with my specific class. And, no, saying "You should re-design the entire thing!" is not help.

[Kuma Kode]

Actually, telling you you're pursuing a mechanism that will cause nothing but sorrow is constructive, just covertly. What Gnome is trying to say is that a skill check is simply too variant to allow for any real balancing.

You could combat that, yes. You can remove all synergy and magic bonuses from it, so that only ranks and your intelligence affect it, but that's little different than simply making it a caster level check to which you add your intelligence.

I do agree with Gnome. Part of the problem was the DC went up by 2 every level, while your skill check only went up by 1, but the other part was that your skill bonus could vary between tame (max skill ranks + intelligence) to powergamed (max skill ranks + all possible feats + intelligence + ridiculous '+10 magic items that grant different kinds of bonuses so they all stack'). Balancing for one breaks the other. Balancing for both breaks both.

The skill system simply was never designed to handle something that requires close balance, like spellcasting.

If you remove synergy, feats, and magic items, the system becomes balanced, but it makes one wonder why it's even a skill. It will be a skill point sink, and be functionally no different than a caster level check + intelligence. It remains a skill purely for novelty.

The beauty of truenaming is the feeling it evokes, not the fact that it's a skill check. Changing it to a more manageable check won't tear the heart out of truenaming, it just makes it actually useable.

If you want to keep it a skill check, that's fine, we're just trying to warn you of the problems that entails. As I showed earlier, the DCs need work. If you aren't abusing every possible bonus, there's really no point in taking this class as the DCs will quickly climb out of your range. It'll be like taking sorcerer with 12 Charisma.

Your class has some really neat stuff I haven't seen done with Truewords before, but so long as the class's mechanic is broken, the class is unusable.

[Halna LeGavilk]

Well, once again, DCs are something that need to be tampered with. I mean, I'll look into making it a caster level check+int... but I dunno. It kinda just feels like expanded bardic music then. I guess part of it is that because there isn't really a functional difference between having skill+int and TL+int, that, why not just make it a skill check?

And, I know its not gonna be as powerful as Wizard and Sorceror and Psion, etc. I kinda don't want it to be. I want it to be different. I want Truespeakers to be able to say "Cif! Cif! Cif!" All day long, except for that one time when their head explodes. I don't want it to be another kind of magic that you just roll a d20 for. I guess making it a skill check is superficial, but its something I like. And its not like Truespeakers are exactly short on skill points. I'm considering bumping it up to 6+int, and along with the fact that they already have a high int, they should be pretty good where skill points are concerned.

And I realize the difficulty of making a class based on skill checks. I know I need to kajigger the DCs, but there are some things I'm getting to that I haven't put up yet, and that does suck, but I don't have enough time ATM to actually get everything up.

Trust me, I do realize the difficulty in making it. I guess part of my snappishness to Gnome is partly that I do realize what I'm getting into, and I really don't need to be lectured about it right now, due to my schedule, etc.

That being said, I am working as fast as I can, and looking back, I think a lot of the "Oh teh noez! Math!" coems from my... confusing wording, which I will be going back and changing.