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Stallion
2011-02-02, 04:34 PM
Just a few questions.

Would an animated dancing tower shield be able to do shield bashes? It seems like the main problem with that is the size of the shield, but if it's not being held, that shouldn't really be an issue. So, should that work or should I just abandon the attempt and go back to an animated dancing spiked large shield?

Volos
2011-02-02, 06:31 PM
You cannot make shield bashes with a tower shield. So you cannot have an animated tower shield do shield bashes. There might be ways to use a tower shield as an improvised weapon by being a drunken master or by throwing it as a hulking hurler, but there has to be more effective means of accomplishing what you are looking for. My suggestion would be to aim for the animated heavy spiked shield of bashing and to make it as large as possible. You don't have to be able to wield it in order to get it animated, so make it colossal size and have it bash as two sizes larger. If the DM isn't cool with that, then put the sizing enchantment on the spikes, making them able to change to any size as a standard action. Bashing should stack with that.

TroubleBrewing
2011-02-02, 07:56 PM
here: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=123630

SiuiS
2011-02-02, 09:20 PM
Talk to the DM about size equivalency. A medium towershield is approximately a large/huge heavy shield. I'd say huge, but honestly it depends on the shield style (which is not a variable D&D takes into account, sadly).
The hard part is convincing your DM to let you get the +4 (towershield) armor bonus, but still attack as a heavy shield (1d4 plus size increase).

I've done a monkey-grip sword-n-boarder with a greatsword and tower shield. Throw on adamant full plate, and you won't rock Te kazbah, but you can hold th DMs sights long enough for the rest of the party to do really cool stuff that will over-shadow you :3

Darrin
2011-02-02, 10:57 PM
Just a few questions.

Would an animated dancing tower shield be able to do shield bashes? It seems like the main problem with that is the size of the shield, but if it's not being held, that shouldn't really be an issue. So, should that work or should I just abandon the attempt and go back to an animated dancing spiked large shield?

Parsing this:

"Animated" - not strictly necessary to get the shield to attack on its own, but does help with the "I have to pick up my shield every four rounds".

"Dancing" - There are actually two Dancing properties, one for weapons (in the DMG) and one for shields (A&EG). The A&EG version doesn't attack, it provides a cover bonus, and was made completely obsolete when the Animated property was added to the 3.5 DMG. So, I assume we're talking about the weapon property, which attacks for 4 rounds and then drops to the ground. You can enchant a shield with weapon enhancements, and in this case, yes, it would shield bash for four rounds. Tower shields can't shield bash, but heavy shields can for 1d4 damage. Adding shield spikes increases this damage by one size category, so 1d4 -> 1d6. Adding the Bashing property (DMG) increases the damage by two size categories, so 1d4 -> 1d6 -> 1d8 (Bashing does not stack with shield spikes).

Tower Shield - you're obviously trying to look for a larger shield, but as has already been noted, they can't do shield bashes, and even though it's Animated, an Animated shield is still treated as if it were being wielded by the owner.

What you're really trying to accomplish is something like a Flying Variable Sizing Riverine Buckler +1:

Flying (+1 weapon enhancement, Magic of Faerun p. 140). Weapon becomes an animated object with a 30' fly speed. It can be given simple instructions, similar to mindless undead, but we can tell it to attack.

Variable (+1 shield enhancement, MIC p. 15). Allows us to change our buckler into a tower shield.

Sizing (+5000 GP, MIC p. 43). Swift action to change the size of our weapon, so let's take it up to Colossal.

Riverine (+10000 GP, Stormwrack p. 128). Special material that consists of water under extremely high pressure that's encased in walls of force... at which point whether or not there's water inside or at what pressure becomes pretty much entirely irrelevant. This makes our shield immune to all damage and spell effects (except disintegrate, but we can enchant it as a Spellblade for +6000 GP to shut down that little loophole). Riverine is *really* expensive (+2000 GP/lb), but that's why we started with a 5-lb. buckler.

To determine the size of our Magic Carpet of Flying Forcewall, let's assume that a tower shield for a medium-sized creature protects it from head-to-toe, so it's just as tall as the creature it's protecting. For width, let's assume it's half that, so a medium-sized tower shield is roughly 5' x 2.5'. A colossal-sized creature occupies a 30' x 30' x 30' cube, so we can assume a colossal-sized tower shield is roughly 30' tall and 15' wide. There's no standard way to determine a creature's size based on it's physical dimensions, but a 30' tall object generally becomes a 30' tall colossal animated object. Weapon size also corresponds roughly to a colossal-sized object (heavy shield = one-handed weapon, generally one size smaller than the size of the wielder, tower shield is bigger than a heavy shield, so roughly corresponds to a two-handed weapon for sizing purposes).

So, anyway, we've got a colossal-sized 32HD invulnerable animated construct with a 30' fly speed, essentially a 15' x 30' wall of force that obeys our commands. It doesn't make shield bash attacks, but it does have one +25 Slam attack that does 4d6+13 damage.

And if the slam attack isn't scary enough, then we direct the shield to hover horizontally, anchor a wall of ice on top of it, fly it directly above something we don't think is exhibiting just quite the correct amount of flatness, reduce our aerial bombardment platform into a fine-sized buckler, and everything underneath takes 20d6 falling object damage (no save). Actually, might as well summon a couple fiendish rhinoceroses (6000 lbs each) on top of the wall of ice just to make sure.

Masterwork buckler, 165 GP.
+2 weapon enhancement (flying), +8000 GP
+2 shield enhancement (variable), +4000 GP
Sizing, +5000 GP
Masterwork weapon, +300
Riverine shield, +4000 GP
Total price: 21465 GP

Stallion
2011-02-03, 01:33 AM
... Nice. A lot cheaper than what I had planned out too. However, the only problem here is that with that I don't retain the shield bonus to AC.




Nitpicky, I know.

Coidzor
2011-02-03, 01:45 AM
... Nice. A lot cheaper than what I had planned out too. However, the only problem here is that with that I don't retain the shield bonus to AC.




Nitpicky, I know.

:smallconfused: You don't shield bash with a shield you want the AC from unless you're being a dedicated shield-wielder. In which case you don't want your shield animated, you want it in both hands.

Bakkan
2011-02-03, 02:53 AM
Bashing does not stack with shield spikes.

Do you (or anyone else) have a page reference or SRD link for this? I have built shield-bearers before and have considered getting the bashing enhancement. Is spikes not stacking with Bashing RAW?

MeeposFire
2011-02-03, 03:40 AM
Do you (or anyone else) have a page reference or SRD link for this? I have built shield-bearers before and have considered getting the bashing enhancement. Is spikes not stacking with Bashing RAW?

Actually that is incorrect. On page 51 of the 3.5 MAIN FAQ it says that bashing stacks with shield spikes.

Stallion
2011-02-03, 03:51 AM
:smallconfused: You don't shield bash with a shield you want the AC from unless you're being a dedicated shield-wielder. In which case you don't want your shield animated, you want it in both hands.



Ah. Welp, alrighty then. Derp. Much thanks.

Darrin
2011-02-03, 09:24 AM
Actually that is incorrect. On page 51 of the 3.5 MAIN FAQ it says that bashing stacks with shield spikes.

Ah, missed that. I was just going by my own interpretation:

SRD, Armor section:

"Shield Spikes: When added to your shield, these spikes turn it into a martial piercing weapon that increases the damage dealt by a shield bash as if the shield were designed for a creature one size category larger than you."

SRD, Magic Armor and Weapons section:

"Bashing: A shield with this special ability is designed to perform a shield bash. A bashing shield deals damage as if it were a weapon of two size categories larger (a Medium light shield thus deals 1d6 points of damage and a Medium heavy shield deals 1d8 points of damage)."

I thought it just overlapped rather than stacked, but I can live with three size increases.

Bakkan
2011-02-03, 10:54 AM
Ah, OK, thanks