[3.5] Polymorph Any Object for Profit and/or Power

[Kansaschaser]

So, I am playing a spellcaster that will eventually become a full Effigy Master. I've been going over ways to make my Effigies more powerful. I'm level 10 so far with 1 level of Effigy Master.

Here is one of my solutions. I want to know if this is something that would be allowed.

1. Create an 8 hit dice Wyrmling Gold Dragon Effigy (Cost to create 10,000 gold, 640 xp. Market Price: 18,000 gold.)

2. Purchase Scroll of Polymorph Any Object. (Cost: 3,000 gold)

3. Cast Polymorph Any Object to turn the Medium Sized Wyrmling Gold Dragon Effigy into a Colossal Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Effigy. According to the rules of Polymorph Any Object, this should be Permanent now. (Same Kingdom +5, Same Class +2, Same or lower intelligence +2. Total of +9 = permanent).

4. My new Colossal Gold Dragon Effigy will have 41D10 hit dice and should be worth about 132,000 gold now. I can either sell it for profit or keep it for a power hitter.

[pilvento]

first of all im sry for ur DM because for what we think in our gaming group thats kinda abusive.

but in my gaming group im the one who abuses the most so i would sell it, more money means more constructs!

[NichG]

Polymorph Any Object is unfortunately rather vague as to what exactly it can or can't do. Be sure to clear its functionality with your DM first.

Personally I rule that polymorph effects cannot change the number of hitdice or levels that a creature possesses since those are associated with the soul or animating energy and not the body. This is to prevent 'I polymorph myself into a high HD creature then use Savage Species rituals to change my race, converting those HD into permanent character levels' maneuvers. So in the case of what you're doing, I'd rule that you now have a Colossal sized wyrmling gold dragon effigy, which is still pretty awesome due to the size bonuses, but not as clearly broken.

[rayne_dragon]

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This part of the text of Polymorph Any Object would be reason to suggest that you won't be able to do this, depending on how strict your DM is.

[Mastikator]

Buy a horse for whatever the price of a horse is, PAO into unicorn, sell unicorn for considerably higher price. It can't polymorph into highly valued materials, but it can polymorph into highly valued creatures.

[ZombyWoof]

I'm pretty sure Polymorph Any Object has hitdice restrictions... in this case it definitely can't do what you're asking because you're changing the amount of Gold there... which is precisely against the rules. Also it can't change magic items, which is also against the rules.

[bloodtide]

Polymorph Any Object has the limits of Polymorph, as the first line of the spell says. So:

1.Polymorph does not effect constructs. You might say that Polymorph Any Object can effect 'any' creature, and that would be true. But construct is not given as one of the options for Polymorph. You could say that PAO can change anything into anything though...

2.As Polymorph has the limit of HD/level, so would Polymorph Any Object. So you'd only have an 11 HD construct(max of 15..not 41!).

3.With Polymorph you loose all the extraordinary abilities of your old form, especially supernatural ones. Like the damage reduction.

4.Wyrmling to Great Wyrm is a huge size change.....kinda like shrew to manticore. So it won't last too long...

5.Can you even sell and Effigy? They are linked to you, right? You can't transfer the link? So who would buy an Effigy permanently linked to you? They can't use or control the Effigy.

[Kansaschaser]

Polymorph Any Object is unfortunately rather vague as to what exactly it can or can't do. Be sure to clear its functionality with your DM first.

Personally I rule that polymorph effects cannot change the number of hitdice or levels that a creature possesses since those are associated with the soul or animating energy and not the body. This is to prevent 'I polymorph myself into a high HD creature then use Savage Species rituals to change my race, converting those HD into permanent character levels' maneuvers. So in the case of what you're doing, I'd rule that you now have a Colossal sized wyrmling gold dragon effigy, which is still pretty awesome due to the size bonuses, but not as clearly broken.

I was thinking that at first too. So it would still get bonus Strength, Natural Armor, and Reach. Still a pretty awesome creature.


I'm pretty sure Polymorph Any Object has hitdice restrictions... in this case it definitely can't do what you're asking because you're changing the amount of Gold there... which is precisely against the rules. Also it can't change magic items, which is also against the rules.

There are no Hit Dice restrictions according to the spell. Also, constructs are creatures, not magic items.

[Jayabalard]

Buy a horse for whatever the price of a horse is, PAO into unicorn, sell unicorn for considerably higher price. It can't polymorph into highly valued materials, but it can polymorph into highly valued creatures.Unicorns are at least partially made of unicorn horn, which would qualify as a material of great intrinsic value, no?

[Kansaschaser]

Unicorns are at least partially made of unicorn horn, which would qualify as a material of great intrinsic value, no?

I think that would still work. According to Polymorph Any Object, these are the materials you can't create with Polymorph Any Object.

"copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine"
-RAW

[Mastikator]

Unicorns are at least partially made of unicorn horn, which would qualify as a material of great intrinsic value, no?

So is dragon scale, but you can polymorph into equal hit dice dragon. Same can be said about plenty of animals with high quality leather or fur, nearly all creatures (including humanoids) are made of materials and organs that could be sold for profit. With your reasoning you can't polymorph creatures, ever. Which turns it into "polymorph one worthless material into another worthless material", doesn't even let you shape (like fabricate does), talk about major league nerf.

There's a red thread in what constitutes "intrinsic values" and that's its minerals and rocks.

[NichG]

I think that would still work. According to Polymorph Any Object, these are the materials you can't create with Polymorph Any Object.

"copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine"
-RAW

In a RAW argument, note that the text says 'such as', which implies that the list is not an exclusive list but is instead a set of examples of valuable materials.

In a RAI argument, that line is probably there to prevent PaO from being used to generate money or to bypass the rareness of special materials.

In a 'magic follows self-consistent laws' world, though, PaO is really hard to fit in. It can produce silkworms but not silk, etc.

Edit: The inconsistency could be solved by saying that all objects and materials have fixed intrinsic value, and that magic cannot increase that value, only degrade it. Make that intrinsic value easily detectable (cantrip: Detect Value). Add to that the following additional ruling: creatures do not have an intrinsic value, but also interact differently with polymorph - specifically, they de-polymorph when they die.

That mostly closes the loophole I think, though Undead and Constructs become tricky.

[Coidzor]

I believe WOTC dealt with a for profit scenario in one of their Random Encounters (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/re/20030113x) series of articles.

But as for making an effigy into a larger effigy... well you've gt a 9+ from kingdom, type, and intelligence. As for allowing it. Eh. One the one hand, once you get something that big, it's basically a vehicle anyway. On the other hand, it's the sort of thing that maybe one or two times to a lesser extent than that would be ok with some DMs, but it you kept doing it, it'd just be too much.

And unless he's the type of DM who allows wall of salt and wall of iron sales, you're probably not going to get that kind of profit allowed from this kind of sale of an effigy either.

[Cruiser1]

Buy a horse for whatever the price of a horse is, PAO into unicorn, sell unicorn for considerably higher price. It can't polymorph into highly valued materials, but it can polymorph into highly valued creatures.Polymorph Any Object (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorphAnyObject.htm) amounts to a buff. A permanent duration buff yes, but one that can still go away when hit with Dispell Magic like any other buff. Therefore the above doesn't create a fully real Unicorn, but rather something more similar to a persisted summoned monster of one (which can still be useful but is definitely less valuable).

[hamishspence]

There are no Hit Dice restrictions according to the spell.

There is a 15HD cap in the Polymorph spell, which the PAO spell functions like, except as otherwise noted.

[gbprime]

Woe be to the wizard who sells a fake unicorn to a rich buyer who then later encounters a Dispel Magic and his unicorn reverts to being a horse. People have that much money because they're high level, and that either means rivalry (if the PC is about as powerful) or big trouble (if you used a scroll and sold it to a much higher level NPC.

As a DM, I'd let you do it and then complicate your life afterward. You have been warned. :smallamused:

[Jack_Simth]

So, I am playing a spellcaster that will eventually become a full Effigy Master. I've been going over ways to make my Effigies more powerful. I'm level 10 so far with 1 level of Effigy Master.

Here is one of my solutions. I want to know if this is something that would be allowed.

1. Create an 8 hit dice Wyrmling Gold Dragon Effigy (Cost to create 10,000 gold, 640 xp. Market Price: 18,000 gold.)

2. Purchase Scroll of Polymorph Any Object. (Cost: 3,000 gold)

3. Cast Polymorph Any Object to turn the Medium Sized Wyrmling Gold Dragon Effigy into a Colossal Great Wyrm Gold Dragon Effigy. According to the rules of Polymorph Any Object, this should be Permanent now. (Same Kingdom +5, Same Class +2, Same or lower intelligence +2. Total of +9 = permanent).

4. My new Colossal Gold Dragon Effigy will have 41D10 hit dice and should be worth about 132,000 gold now. I can either sell it for profit or keep it for a power hitter.

Doesn't work. By a lot.

1) When used on creatures, Polymorph Any Object inherits the hit die limitations from Polymorph. So you can't change your Wyrmling Effigy into something with more hit dice.
2) Polymorph Any Object inherits from Polymorph, which inherits from Alter Self, which states: "You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype." - and Effigy is a template.

Mind you, you could turn an 11 hit dice effigy into a Clay Golem....

[Coidzor]

Hence why you buff up your caster level as much possible beforehand to protect against that. Get even a temporary CL of 20(so a net increase of 5) and dispel magic is useless against it, or depending upon how you handle nat 20s, it only has a 5% chance of succeeding which is the best that can be hoped for... but only requires a CL increase of 4. There's some way to go about doing such which is more or less feasible by 15th level. Though I can never recall it myself.

Greater Dispel Magic is a bit trickier, since a CL increase of 14-15 is a bit harder without TO, AFAIK.

Of course, in the long run, you'd really want a self-expanding fast-time demiplane stocked and provisioned with a pair set up as breeders, and with reverence of the caster ingrained into them that they then impart to their young culturally. Or with sufficient magic, passed on to their young genetically. But that's getting into epic magic territory, methinks.

Since the offspring won't have that weakness to dispelling or disjunction, and may even have some of their quirks, like their racism and sexism, excised by this process, it's quite possible that they would, in fact, be more valuable than natural unicorns allowing those who aren't human or elven women or Beloved of Valarian(if I'm remembering the BoED correctly) to have a working relationship with unicorns.

Though, with something sapient, one couldn't really sell them so well so much as charge a liaising fee in finding them like-minded individuals to go adventuring with... Well, at least not without some form of constraints to enforce a condition of slavery. I can see getting them to want to mostly stick around with their creator out of ingrained reverence, but I don't really see that as standing in the way of them objecting to being sold even with messing with their heads. Or increasing the overhead and cost by requiring some kind of item to keep them docile/in line unless one is only going to be selling to people capable of dominating such things and willing to but unwilling to find them on their own.

Which is a more dangerous clientele than what I'd baseline assume one wanted to cater to....

So, things that can be controlled via handle animal seem to be a better market. Simpler production/training process, clear-cut way for consumers to control their purchases, and no real dangerous questions of morality/slavery.

After all, Rocs (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/roc.htm), warbeast or otherwise, could make one quite the pretty penny, even for a level 15 character. Depending upon the build though, it would require teamwork which would be a tradeoff from magic item crafting for profit which only requires one's self and one's dedicated wright, but on the other hand, one could have 3 Rocs trained at once, and PAO has no costly material component.