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View Full Version : 3.5 what is the locate city bomb?



Ilmryn
2011-02-03, 03:43 PM
What is it, how does it work, and what book is it from?

Jarian
2011-02-03, 03:46 PM
Locate City (RoD) - 10 mile/level radius, finds a city

1. Apply Snowcasting (FB) - spell now has the cold descriptor
2. Apply Flash Frost feat (PHB2) - spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area
3. Apply Energy Substitution (Electricity) (CArc) - spell now deals electricity damge
4. Apply Born of Three Thunders (CArc) - spell deals half electric, half sonic, but what is important is that it now requires a reflex save, allowing us to...
5. Apply Explosive Spell (CArc) - all creatures/things in area that fail their reflex saves are shunted to the outside of the area of effect (10 miles/level) and take 1d6 damage per 10' moved!

Arguably doesn't work, since Locate City technically just scans ground level, and creatures would be shunted about a half an inch upwards, but... yeah.

Keld Denar
2011-02-03, 03:52 PM
Google is your friend. (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=D%26D+locate+city+bomb)

rayne_dragon
2011-02-03, 04:15 PM
As a less questionable alternative:


Locate City (RoD) - 10 mile/level radius, finds a city

1. Apply Snowcasting (FB) - spell now has the cold descriptor
2. Apply Flash Frost feat (PHB2) - spell now deals 2 points of cold damage to all in area


3. Apply Fell Drain (Libre Mortis) - makes it cause an undead apocolypse.

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 04:16 PM
Arguably doesn't work, since Locate City technically just scans ground level, and creatures would be shunted about a half an inch upwards, but... yeah.

The problem I have with this logic is that by that logic, a fireball going off 5 feet beneath a flying monster wouldn't hit it, despite having a 20' blast radius. There may be something in the text of Locate City that specifically makes it scan only the ground, but I think that a fireball checks for the radius in all directions (including up) from point of origin.

That being said LCB is cheesy to the max, and no DM should ever allow it. :smallsmile:

My bad...LCB scans its radius in a circle, and not an actual radius. Fireball works...LCB doesn't.

Lateral
2011-02-03, 04:18 PM
What Rayne and Jarian said. The Fell Drain version has the advantage of not being arguable by RAW. Cast it on a city, give all those commoners with only 1 hit die a negative level, make a lot of wights. Bam! Everyone who survived is killed by wights, and you have an instant wightocalypse.

The problem I have with this logic is that by that logic, a fireball going off 5 feet beneath a flying monster wouldn't hit it, despite having a 20' blast radius. There may be something in the text of Locate City that specifically makes it scan only the ground, but I think that a fireball checks for the radius in all directions (including up) from point of origin.

A fireball does, but Locate City is specifically a circle, and therefore a flat shape.

Knaight
2011-02-03, 04:19 PM
The problem I have with this logic is that by that logic, a fireball going off 5 feet beneath a flying monster wouldn't hit it, despite having a 20' blast radius. There may be something in the text of Locate City that specifically makes it scan only the ground, but I think that a fireball checks for the radius in all directions (including up) from point of origin.
Locate city explicitly says circle. Whether this means radiating out and following the ground, a circle that only finds cities of the same height as the caster, or a circle that spreads out, but finds any city on the assumption that the airspace and underground space is part of the city isn't explicit, but it does say circle. Fireball however says that it is a spread.

Gullintanni
2011-02-03, 04:19 PM
What Rayne and Jarian said. The Fell Drain version has the advantage of not being arguable by RAW. Cast it on a city, give all those commoners with only 1 hit die a negative level, make a lot of wights. Bam! Everyone who survived is killed by wights, and you have an instant wightocalypse.

This, on the other hand, works splendidly.

Kansaschaser
2011-02-03, 04:23 PM
Arguably doesn't work, since Locate City technically just scans ground level, and creatures would be shunted about a half an inch upwards, but... yeah.

The spell would have to work in 3 dimensions, otherwise the caster would only find spells on a single plane from the casters perspective.

The spell should locate all cities within a 10 mile/level radius on the X, Y, and Z axis. So it can find cities in valley's, up in mountains, flying cities, and burried dwarven cities. Otherwise the spell wouldn't work as intended.

Reverent-One
2011-02-03, 04:28 PM
Oh boy, can we avoid the whole "area:circle" side of this debate? JaronK said it best in the last thread:


The basic issue is the circle thing. The circle is obviously a typo because the spell's description indicates it actually works in a sphere shape (since it's obviously 3D). However, this is one of those "check it out, by RAW this works even though it's not intended" tricks, so saying "it's intended that it be a sphere, not a circle" won't fly here. Basically, your DM would have to agree that the intent is a sphere, not a circle... and then let you violate intent all over the place by nuking a continent. That's a hard sell.

JaronK

Knaight
2011-02-03, 04:35 PM
Once you get to two frost damage its still a city killer. 25% of commoners in the best of states are now dying, another 25% are now disabled. That's major, particularly as one would expect serious panic, and even if losses were kept low it is still a major blow to infrastructure. Fire off two of them, and 75% of commoners are dying, and the other 25% are in no position to save the survivors. Cast it three times, and all the commoners are dying, as are most of the warriors.

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-03, 04:39 PM
The Fell Drain version kills everyone with only one hit die, though. Which is most people.

No need to cast it three times.

Yora
2011-02-03, 04:42 PM
The reason it doesn't work is step 1: Since the spell doesn't deal damage, it can't have the cold descriptor.

Czin
2011-02-03, 04:46 PM
The spell would have to work in 3 dimensions, otherwise the caster would only find spells on a single plane from the casters perspective.

The spell should locate all cities within a 10 mile/level radius on the X, Y, and Z axis. So it can find cities in valley's, up in mountains, flying cities, and burried dwarven cities. Otherwise the spell wouldn't work as intended.

Obviously it can make a non-euclidean circle, it will still have no height, but the circle would be able to wrap around terrain.

Kansaschaser
2011-02-03, 04:48 PM
If the wording of Locate City is a hinderance, then you could always use a 3rd level Druid spell called Weather Eye.

Weather Eye has a 1 mile radius +1 mile/level.

The feats Snowcasting (+0), Flash Frost(+1), Energy Substitution(+0), Born of the Three Thunders(+0), and Explosive Spell(+2) only increase the caster level by 3.

So the spell would need to be cast by a level 11 Druid or higher. It's only a 12 mile radius at that point, but it's still pretty impressive.

hamishspence
2011-02-03, 04:49 PM
The reason it doesn't work is step 1: Since the spell doesn't deal damage, it can't have the cold descriptor.

I don't think that's strictly true- a spell can have a descriptor, without doing damage.

Many of the spells in Frostburn, for example, are [Cold] without damaging targets.

So- Snowcasting can work (it doesn't say Damaging Spells Only).

For a nondamaging spell to become a damaging spell via Flash Frost, might be trickier, if the damage is regarded as not 0 but - .

Just as an LA - creature plus a template that has LA +2 is still unplayable as a PC, maybe damage -, plus 2 from Flash Frost, is still no damage?

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-03, 04:49 PM
The reason it doesn't work is step 1: Since the spell doesn't deal damage, it can't have the cold descriptor.

Snowcasting does not give a single **** about whether the spell deals damage.

Many of the spells in Frostburn (where Snowcasting is, by the way!) have the [Cold] descriptor. Several of these do not deal any sort of damage.

Sorry, but no.

Aemoh87
2011-02-03, 05:01 PM
I prefer the necrobomb. Then you build to kill undead and farm those cities! Maybe even charge them to get rid of their undead problem! HA!

rayne_dragon
2011-02-03, 05:13 PM
I prefer the necrobomb. Then you build to kill undead and farm those cities! Maybe even charge them to get rid of their undead problem! HA!

Charge who? The wights? :smalltongue:

Just protect yourself from undead somehow and walk around looting the place.

Aemoh87
2011-02-03, 05:24 PM
The surrounding cities, they gotta be terrified of that undead horde! Plus a few higher level NPC's would no doubt survive.

Jarian
2011-02-03, 05:26 PM
Plus a few higher level NPC's would no doubt survive.

Initially, yes, but how many NPCs are strong enough to combat an entire city full of wights on their own?

Kami2awa
2011-02-03, 05:37 PM
Also, I don't know of any rule that says you can apply Metamagic effects to a spell in sequence like that, which would also prevent it working.

On the other hand, having the BBG reveal his plan to unleash destruction using Locate City Bomb (probably first having to locate artifacts that provide the necessary metamagic) would be rather fun.

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-03, 05:43 PM
There is in fact a rule that lets you apply metamagic feats in sequence like that.

It lets you apply them in whatever roder is most advantageous, to boot.

Keld Denar
2011-02-03, 06:04 PM
There is precedent that metamagic only affects a base spell. Empower and Maximize each affect the base spell, as stated in the description of each. Now, because thats the one explicit exception, or whether its a precedent that identifies a rule simply because those are the only two core MM feats that can interact with each other is uncertain. To sumararily dismiss it as irrelevant would be foolishly ignoring precedent.

KillianHawkeye
2011-02-03, 06:23 PM
Geez, we have a new thread about this every week! :smallsigh::smallsigh:

Cog
2011-02-03, 06:24 PM
This metamagic feat can be applied only to spells that have the cold descriptor and that affect an area.
Emphasis added. Neither Locate City nor Weather Eye do anything to affect their area, and so are ineligible for Flash Frost, meaning they do no damage and can't be made Explosive, Fell Draining, or such.

Aemoh87
2011-02-03, 06:25 PM
Yes it works, no your DM isn't going to be happy.

Also if you have any questions about how to optimize a character just do this: Don't do it because your DM will shank you.

Czin
2011-02-03, 06:27 PM
This thread has got me thinking of creative ways to cause city obliteration levels of destruction without just brute using spells specifically meant for the task (apocalypse from the sky, dire winter, call asteroid, and other things of the sort.)

Hold on I'll make a new thread for this.

Zeful
2011-02-03, 06:31 PM
Emphasis added. Neither Locate City nor Weather Eye do anything to affect their area, and so are ineligible for Flash Frost, meaning they do no damage and can't be made Explosive, Fell Draining, or such.

Except for the concept that hypothesizes that observing something changes it, so technically (on the barest of acceptable margins) Locate City does affect their area.

Elric VIII
2011-02-03, 06:31 PM
Initially, yes, but how many NPCs are strong enough to combat an entire city full of wights on their own?

Well, with a long enough Spiked Chain and Great Cleave...

Czin
2011-02-03, 06:36 PM
Except for the concept that hypothesizes that observing something changes it, so technically (on the barest of acceptable margins) Locate City does affect their area.

There are no D&D mechanics for the uncertainty principle silly, so by RAW this argument falls flat on it's face.

Zeful
2011-02-03, 07:07 PM
There are no D&D mechanics for the uncertainty principle silly, so by RAW this argument falls flat on it's face.

It is the uncertainty principle? Thanks I wasn't sure.

The DMG stats that unless otherwise stated, the campaign world resembles the real world though. So it doesn't need mechanics for the uncertainty principle, it gets ours by default.


But no I wouldn't accept this rationalization. I'm simply pointing this out.

JaronK
2011-02-03, 07:32 PM
And I'd like to point out that if any player invokes the uncertainty principle in my game as a way of justifying anything, that player gets a free cookie. I love players like that.

JaronK

Dr Bwaa
2011-02-03, 07:53 PM
And I'd like to point out that if any player invokes the uncertainty principle in my game as a way of justifying anything, that player gets a free cookie. I love players like that.

JaronK

Careful. Encouraging shenanigans like that can get you in trouble (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9617348#post9617348). Unless you're like me and might actually enjoy that kind of end to your campaigns.

Urpriest
2011-02-03, 08:05 PM
No spell affects every square inch of its area no matter what the conditions, and few even affect every "target" in the area. So a spell needs to only affect something in the area to affect an area. The spell affects one target in the area, since the caster must be in the area. Thus the spell affects an area.

Cog
2011-02-03, 11:49 PM
No spell affects every square inch of its area no matter what the conditions, and few even affect every "target" in the area. So a spell needs to only affect something in the area to affect an area. The spell affects one target in the area, since the caster must be in the area. Thus the spell affects an area.
Fireball "deals 1d6 points of fire damage per caster level (maximum 10d6) to every creature within the area." Area Dispel Magic "affects everything within a 20-foot radius." Antilife Shell "bring[s] into being a mobile, hemispherical energy field that prevents the entrance of most types of living creatures." Obscuring Mist "obscures all sight, including darkvision, beyond 5 feet. " Glitterdust "covers everyone and everything in the area..."

Locate City and Weather Eye give the caster, and the caster only, a certain set of knowledge. I'm pretty sure "caster" isn't an area of effect, and the description of spell areas (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#area) seems to agree.

As for the Uncertainty Principle approach... maybe. That effect does depend on some sort of interaction with what's being observed, so it depends on whether divinations actually involve photons or such being bounced off the subject or if knowledge of a thing has a separate existence from the thing itself, and the spell merely taps into that. Some divinations, blocked by lead, seem to imply the former, while others the latter.

Flame of Anor
2011-02-04, 12:29 AM
As for the Uncertainty Principle approach... maybe. That effect does depend on some sort of interaction with what's being observed, so it depends on whether divinations actually involve photons or such being bounced off the subject or if knowledge of a thing has a separate existence from the thing itself, and the spell merely taps into that. Some divinations, blocked by lead, seem to imply the former, while others the latter.

Next you'll be using the peasant linear accelerator to search for Mordenkainen's Boson.