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TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 09:59 AM
So we're starting a crazy game, as ours usually go. I'm playing a Dark Stalker from the Pathfinder Beastiary, I extrapolated that it had 6 levels of rogue, so I removed them to create the base race. Now I'm hammering out the character but I see something that might be a problem down the line and I can't remember or find the ruling.

Darkstalkers can use Deeper Darkness at will
They can also see through any type of darkness, even that created by Deeper Darkness
If I drop deeper darkness on my opponent and he has no way of seeing through it (aka is normal human) are all of my attacks against him sneak attacks?

I'm also playing the Pathfinder Ninja, which gets the ninja art Shuriken Multi-throw where i toss out a number of shurikens equal to my dex mod (which is ridiculously high for being only lvl 3. It says that precision based damage only happens on the first, but I believe that is supposed to be because now they know where the attacks are coming from. If they are trapped in deeper darkness and cant see out, would all my shurikens get sneak attack damage?:smallconfused:

SilverLeaf167
2011-02-04, 10:15 AM
If you manage to Stealth properly, I think the opponent is flat-footed against all of your attacks.

For the shuriken: I think it's because it's pretty much impossible to aim such a rapid barrage accurately enough to make all attacks hit vital organs.

TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 11:29 AM
Yeah thats pretty much what i figured. I would accept the fact that all the shurikens can't be precise damage attacks, if for no other reason than if I was the DM I wouldn't allow that lol.

"Okay, you drop deeper darkness, during your surprise round you launch a volley of 8 shurikens at him, 1d2 each.. +1 for magic, +4 each for strength, oh and + 2d6 each... yeah he's dead. And you're gettin the nerf hammer!"

XD

but other than that, as long as I stealth good enough all my basic melee attacks would trigger precise yes? The reason I ask is mainly cause most everything says that in the case of multiple attacks only the first gets precise damage, but when you're flanking they are denied their dex, so all your attacks can be precise. I think that when caught in deeper darkness with no way to see through it, and I can see through it fine, that all my melee attacks would trigger precise damage.

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 11:32 AM
At least in 3.5, as long as your foe can't see you for any of your attacks you get sneak attack for all of them. Some other methods, like hiding and invisibility, reveal you after the first attack and thus you only get 1 sneak attack.

TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 11:40 AM
see thats kind of what i was thinking, that since i have them completely caught without their dex that all the attacks would trigger precise. you can't dodge what you cant see, so the first shuriken hits, gets precise damage, they now know they are under attack, but they're in deeper darkness so they can't see them coming. all the rest of the shurikens would get precise too cause I can see him fine and can aim and he can't dodge. At least that's what I was thinking. It may be a little OP, but then we also need to think about just how many things are immune to precise damage and such.

dextercorvia
2011-02-04, 11:49 AM
No the reason is not them 'seeing', it is balance. It is one of the things that were 'fixed' in the Rules Compendium for 3.5, so I expect that that is why PF picked it up. You can't get multiple sneak attacks from any action that takes less time than a Full Round Action (Except Greater Manyshot -- which is the 4th feat in its chain).

Scorching Ray, for instance, can shoot up to 3 rays, but only the 'first' gets sneak attack. You could cast Orb of Fire and Quickened Acid Splash, for two sneak attacks.

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 11:50 AM
It's not an uncommon tactic. Greater invisibility, ring of blinking, flanking of course, flat-footed foes who haven't acted yet in round 1, etc., etc. are some of the many other ways it's done. Yeah it should work for you.

It is balanced as rogues are medium BAB, extremely fragile, you don't always get SA damage and it often costs you a turn to start getting SA damage. TWF only worsens AB, fragility and magic weapon cost issues. Heck in your case not only does it take a turn to cast deeper darkness you need to waste another turn for new foes or foes that leave the area. And shurikens have a painful AB penalty at any range over 5 feet; I'd get far shot. In fact a rogue fights significantly worse than, say, a fighter. But rogues still fight ok and they get skills so it evens out.

It might be mildly OP before level 7 when other full attack triggers aren't yet available, but at the same time you don't have that many attacks.

TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 12:00 PM
Heck in your case not only does it take a turn to cast deeper darkness you need to waste another turn for new foes or foes that leave the area.

Just confirming because your statement slight confuses me. My race is Dark Stalkers, who can see in any form of darkness, including Deeper Darkness. Were you saying that after I cast Deeper Darkness that I would have to wait for them to come out so I could attack? As a Dark Stalker I do not need to wait for that, because I can still see them just fine. :smallsmile:

Edit: Also as a Dark Stalker I can cast Deeper Darkness at will, so it doesn't cost me a turn, I just drop it on the unsuspecting hapless victims ^_^

Also, for reference purposes this is the ability that I get as a Ninja that allows me to be tossing multiple shurikens, copy pasted.

Shuriken Multi-Throw (Ex): A ninja with this secret can throw multiple shuriken with one attack roll. The ninja may throw up to a number of shuriken equal to his Dexterity modifier. He makes one attack roll for all shuriken thrown vs. each individual opponent’s Armor Class. Thus, it is possible to hit some opponents while missing others completely. He may target a number of opponents equal to the number of shuriken he throws, but each target cannot be more than 5 feet apart. The ninja can choose to assign multiple shuriken to individual targets, but this must be done prior to the attack roll. Thus, a ninja with a Dexterity of 17 who is facing three opponents, all who are within 5 feet of each other, can choose to throw 1 shuriken at each of her opponents, making one attack roll vs. their individual armor class to see if the shuriken hit, or he can choose to throw all three at a single opponent. If the ninja is applying precision based damage to his shuriken multi-throw ability, then he may only apply it once per valid target. Multiple shuriken thrown at one target do not individually gain precision based damage from the ninja’s sudden strike. Thus, it could be possible for one target to be considered flat-footed while several others are not.

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 12:01 PM
It takes a turn each time you cast deeper darkness. One turn wasted. It has a limited area of effect, so a foe flees out of it or you kill him and need to attack a different foe, and yet another turn wasted. You might want to switch to a more common rogue method at higher levels, though OTOH you are making it harder for foes to hurt your allies too. It seems by your ability description you do get sneak attack once per target. It's still not unbalanced after level 7 or so.

TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 12:08 PM
Hmm, maybe I'm understanding the way the RAW is, or maybe my group has been running it wrong for years. If as a SLA I can cast Deeper Darknes at will, isn't that.. yknow.. at will? I dunno if it would count as a free action or a swift action, but I wouldn't think it would take my whole turn. If I was a wizard/sorcerer and cast it as the spell itself I think it still only is 1 standard action to do so.

Also just for clarification I have accepted that I wont get precision damage on every shuriken, I'm just figuring out how things will work together.

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 12:20 PM
"At will" only means you can do it as many times as you want, all day long. It still takes the same amount of time as casting deeper darkness, a standard. By the ability description you do get sneak attack multiple times if you hit different targets.

TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 12:30 PM
Okay, so while in stealth, I spend a standard action to cast Deeper Darkness, entering the surprise round. Then I use an attack action to launch a volley of shurikens at 1 or more targets in the darkness. I'm catching each of them flat footed, but each one I hit only gets one precise damage added on. Then we roll for initiative and begin combat. If anything there is wrong please inform me. ^_^

Greenish
2011-02-04, 12:37 PM
No the reason is not them 'seeing', it is balance. It is one of the things that were 'fixed' in the Rules Compendium for 3.5, so I expect that that is why PF picked it up. You can't get multiple sneak attacks from any action that takes less time than a Full Round Action (Except Greater Manyshot -- which is the 4th feat in its chain).Well, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but it holds true for most cases.

Okay, so while in stealth, I spend a standard action to cast Deeper Darkness, entering the surprise round. Then I use an attack action to launch a volley of shurikens at 1 or more targets in the darkness.You would cast the Deeper Darkness on the surprise round. Then you'd roll initiative.

dextercorvia
2011-02-04, 12:54 PM
Well, that's a bit of an oversimplification, but it holds true for most cases.


A form of attack that enables an attacker to make multiple attacks during an action other than a full-round action, such as the Manyshot feat (standard action) or a quickened scorching ray (swift action), allows precision damage to be applied only to the first attack in the group.

Greater Manyshot specifically makes an exception. Are there any others?

TheWhiteRaven
2011-02-04, 01:11 PM
Alrighty, I think I've got it then. Thanks for your help all, I'll run it by our DM and get his final approval and rulings, but I'll tell him what ya said.

Also, just cause you guys are the type to appreciate it, the setting that we're in. Hell and the Abyss are both making their bids for the material plane and Celestia is fighting them off along with the mortals. We had to pick a side, we ended up choosing Hell. My clan of Dark Ones were taken by Dispater and through selective breeding the entire clan was breed into Half Fiend Dark Stalkers/Creepers. Before Dispater got to us we were already a full ninja clan, So my character is a Half-fiend Dark Stalker Ninja who works for Dispater.

My friends character is a Half-fiend Warforged, we determined that it works because he was created in a forge in hell, hence half fiend. He's going Savage Warrior variant Fighter from the Advanced PF books, using his claws as main weapons.

And the other buddy is playing the lazy necromancer who is carried around on a palanquin carried by skeletons/zombies, kicking back on a throne and ordering his minions around to do his bidding.

It promises to be an interesting game XD

Strife Warzeal
2011-02-04, 01:41 PM
And the other buddy is playing the lazy necromancer who is carried around on a palanquin carried by skeletons/zombies, kicking back on a throne and ordering his minions around to do his bidding.


What is the move rate on that? Would it count as a mount?

Fitz10019
2011-02-04, 02:23 PM
My understanding is that precision damage is at most once per d20 attack roll. If you launch multiple missiles with one d20 attack roll, apply precision damage once. If you launch many missiles, and each has it's own d20 attack roll, they could each have precision damage (such as in your case).

You would cast the Deeper Darkness on the surprise round. Then you'd roll initiative.You need initiative rolls before the surprise round -- the results apply then, too, when more than one person is aware of an enemy.

ericgrau
2011-02-04, 03:14 PM
I mentioned that at high level play spending a turn over and over again to get your sneak attacks was below par compared to other methods. Well, first I mixed up deeper darkness with 3.0 darkness, so you do get a nice big radius at least to cover the whole field. Second, once you hit level 14 (class levels + HD, don't include LA), you can get the feat quicken spell like ability to get quickened deeper darkness 3 times per day. That could help if you don't have another method by then.