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Lord.Sorasen
2011-02-04, 11:41 AM
So, a while back I purchased the book of Exalted Deeds, and thought it helped a lot with making holy characters. Sure, some of the spells were dumb (cure addiction seems sort of bizarre), some of the feats were silly (vow of abstinence? Really? Can't touch dead flesh? In a world with undead, that's considered a good vow to make? Eh), and ravishes are lame, but ultimately there's a lot of neat stuff in there.

So I was rather shocked to hear that most people call it "book of exalted cheese". Looking online, I discovered three of the reasons why: Some people talked about how "overpowered" a VoP monk was, while some said it made good to arbitrary (listing ravishes as their only example and leaving out the "can't kill helpless enemies, vows to not attempt to take a life, etc etc...) But a majority of people who dislike the book do so for one reason: BoED is apparently a lesser version of the 3.0 BoVD. So, two days ago at my local Half Price Bookstore I found BoVD. Probably needless to say I now own it.

And truth be told, I don't get what's so much better about it. It has every flaw BoED has, really. The Vashar are a really awkwardly written race which doesn't match the rest of the world (all the gods worked together for one race? But there are evil Gods.. Plus Vashar are just weaker humans), and while these spells are sinister sounding, the Player's Handbook gives implosion and save or die spells already, so it seems to be sort of arbitrary and flavor based.

I guess I don't see the appeal. But! I do not think myself to stubborn as to be incapable of figuring it out. So I'm asking you guys who do like this one to help me understand, is what I'm saying.

Yora
2011-02-04, 11:51 AM
The part I like of the book are the monsters and the demon lords. The prestige classes are okay, but I never played with optimizers or use PrCs much, so I don't know about their actual quality.
The rest I can't really remember, didn't leave much of a memory.

ex cathedra
2011-02-04, 11:51 AM
Neither of the books are great, and people who think that BoED is broken due to Vow of Poverty are wrong.

I like both books, but it's important to realize that both of them were fairly poorly written, and that their moral stances on alignment et al. are absurd.

I don't think that either are that much better than the other, since they're both somewhat hard to take seriously. BoED is more useful for more games, since most games tend to have good heroes, but they're both useful. Personally, I'm more fond of the BoVD, because it has material that I use more often than BoED's.

Psyren
2011-02-04, 11:53 AM
I'm confused - are you asking about BoED or BoVD? Your title says one but your post says another.

Scratch that, seems to be a little of both.

BoVD is appealing because it's DARK and EDGY and DISGUSTING! And has its share of cheese like Cancer Mage and Hiveminds.

BoED is appealing because (a) Good monster stats are hard to find, and (b) people just like the idea of having virtuous characters. (For example, in Bioware's Mass Effect 2 stats, 80% of players played Paragon.)

Hyudra
2011-02-04, 12:00 PM
I think one of my problems with the official materials is that, in striving to appeal to a core audience and not step on any toes, it remains fairly PG. This leads to a situation where I'm an adult playing with adult friends, and even with a fairly mature outlook (except for one of us, who has a mental disability that makes him a little immature in behavior and decisions from time to time) and some creativity, the game remains rated 14+.

BoVD isn't a good book. It does a lot of things wrong, and it feels like 75% of what's in there are things that won't fit in campaigns that aren't built around them. That said, I think there's definite appeal in having something that tries to break out of that PG/14+ mold, or at least raises ideas in that department. It's refreshing, if not particularly accurate.

Psyren
2011-02-04, 12:03 PM
I feel what they did unequivocally right - was move D&D away from the "slaughtering goblins is always okay" mindset. There are inconsistencies in some places (like Ravages being Good and Theft being Evil), but the books on a whole are good, especially BoED.

And I would wager WotC was figuring that any group mature enough to consider those books tame, would also be mature enough to hash morality out for their own campaigns in greater detail anyway.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-04, 12:07 PM
I agree with Psyren on the morality part, but I must say, the only mechanical thing I have ever used outside of TheorOP is Mind Rape, because it was that good. Otherwise, it just sits, collecting dust.

Telonius
2011-02-04, 12:24 PM
People like BoVD because of the Rule of Cool. The mechanics aren't great, but they at least made an attempt to have some seriously bad villains (Dread Emperor comes to mind), flesh out the Demon and Devil Princes, throw in a couple cool monsters (yay, Alien in D&D!), and even give a couple weirdly cool Vile deities (Xammux are my favorite, and work well with some types of campaigns). Heroes of Horror does some things better, but they also learned from some of BoVD's errors.

People like BoED for similar reasons. Again, mechanical disaster. With a couple notable exceptions like the Saint template (which is one of the more powerful for its LA) the stuff in it generally synergizes horribly, costs lots of caster levels, or is totally silly (honest, officer, it might look like a poison and act like a poison, but I swear it's not a poison!). But at least they tried to fit some mechanics to archetypes that wouldn't really have otherwise been covered. Vow of Poverty, for instance. It doesn't make super-powerful characters, but it does take an otherwise-totally-unusable concept (person with no material wealth) and turn it into something approaching playable. The Celestial Hebdomad descriptions were interesting too, as were the Eladrin court.

I use them both as repositories for ideas about how the forces of very-good and very-evil might interact with the game world, more than for the mechanics.

umbrapolaris
2011-02-04, 12:45 PM
BoVD?

- dark speech
- torture rules
- hivemind
- vile feats
- poison & drugs (nasty)
- demons/devils special FX (possession and co)
- In BoVD you can be truly EVIL/INSANE/DEVIANT

dsmiles
2011-02-04, 01:19 PM
Two words:

Angelwing Razor

:eek:

subject42
2011-02-04, 01:25 PM
The mechanics aren't great, but they at least made an attempt to have some seriously bad villains (Dread Emperor comes to mind)

Isn't that the guy that slathers himself in a thick, protective coating of toddlers every morning when he wakes up?

Gnoman
2011-02-04, 01:33 PM
I like both books, but it's important to realize that both of them were fairly poorly written, and that their moral stances on alignment et al. are absurd.


This is, in fact, why both books are on my permaban list, and I will never allow any material from them in any game I run.

bloodtide
2011-02-04, 01:36 PM
I never liked the BoVD much. It has a couple nice things in it, but most of it is just for the crazy, stupid chaotic evil people. I wish they could have done a bit more 'cool' evil and not 'stupid' evil.

Take the prestige classes, you get a bunch of 'cleric' ones, a couple monster only ones, and the vermin, cancer and warrior of darkness. That's it? No dark knight? No dark mage? No assassin? Basically no nice evil PsC for evil characters to take. A 'dark spellcaster' who got evil powers to augment their spellcasting would have been nice.

The warrior of darkness might be the worst. A fighter alchemist? Boring.


Some of the spells are OK, but most just go for evil stupid. There are few cool evil spells for intelligent evil folks.

The worst is the Armor of the Dread Emperor.....chain some kids to your armor to absorb damage you take.....just yuck.

Hazzardevil
2011-02-04, 01:50 PM
TBH vile darkness focused on teh chaotic part of the evil allignments more than anythign else, while at the smae time focusing on horror.
I didn't understand one thing though, why was exalted focused on being so good? Aside from chastity I couldn't think of anything that bad.

Telonius
2011-02-04, 01:52 PM
Isn't that the guy that slathers himself in a thick, protective coating of toddlers every morning when he wakes up?

Yep. Might be that it gave off the same sort of feeling that the Sewer King did in Batman, but I've always thought that this sort of "drain the life out of children" theme is an excellent hook for a horror campaign. That feeling of revulsion can be a powerful motivator.

Boci
2011-02-04, 02:06 PM
One of the things BoVD had going for it was the ability to fall back towards the demon princes and devil lords in each chapter. I felt it used the established mythology of evil within D&D better than BoED did.

Eldan
2011-02-04, 02:31 PM
That's because the evil mythology was already established and fleshed out in Planescape books such as Faces of Evil and Hellbound, as well as a few adventures. There was never really much material for good.

BiblioRook
2011-02-04, 02:31 PM
Ugh, the very first time I played D&D the first boss my DM put us up against was pimped out with things from BoVD...

Basically, alot of people see evil as cool and fun, so of course they would make a book all about such. It's one of those things that almost don't need substance as people will probably try to use it just on principle. 9_9
(Never understood the appeal of evil for the sake of evil)

Psyren
2011-02-04, 02:53 PM
That's because the evil mythology was already established and fleshed out in Planescape books such as Faces of Evil and Hellbound, as well as a few adventures. There was never really much material for good.

Not to mention the various Fiend Folio

Tyndmyr
2011-02-04, 02:54 PM
BoVD has more mechanically useful things.

That said, all the negatives listed by other posters above are completely correct. Personally, I don't open the book that much, but in practice, my players use things from it more often than from BoED.

The biggest problem of both books were that instead of expanding upon their target alignment in a variety of ways, they focused on the extreme ends of them. Yes, you bathe in babies, that's great. You over there, you are a non-violent saint. Also great. Both are pretty frigging extreme.

Yora
2011-02-04, 03:02 PM
Well, they are the books of Very Evil and Very Good.
Champions of Ruin and Champions of Valor had a more broader approach.

navar100
2011-02-04, 03:29 PM
I find the Books tend to be cared about more by DMs. Book of Vile Darkness is mostly for the DM to use. While players could play Evil characters, for the most part players play non-Evil. The DM uses the book to populate his bad guys and their plots. He can do whatever he wants with the information provided, and it will always be to his liking.

Players will use Book of Exalted Deeds. The feats, prestige classes, and spells it provides the players will use. Book of Exalted Deeds allows for things quite a bit out of the norm than the Player's Handbook, where "out of the norm" does not mean broken. Players get to do nifty things in a new way. Some DMs hate that. They have a knee-jerk reaction of disgust because a player's character gets a plus number.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-04, 03:31 PM
Out of the norm far enough is pretty hard to work with. Think it's bad having a lawful annoying paladin playing party cop?

Try having the saint with the vow of non-violence, etc. It might work for a very specific group, but it's not going to play well with the vast majority of D&D things, where killing people for their things is pretty standard.

randomhero00
2011-02-04, 03:33 PM
I've read this original post somewhere before....this is a repost or I'm loosing my mind.

As to the question, there's a few really nasty spells in there.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-04, 03:36 PM
I've read this original post somewhere before....this is a repost or I'm loosing my mind.

Don't feel bad, losing your mind is really quite underrated. I've haven't missed mine at all. Plus, it's a prereq for going mad with power, which is also awesome. There's no point going mad without it, after all.

Gensh
2011-02-04, 03:58 PM
Honestly, my group uses BoVD because it's possible to read the whole thing as humor, and when you've already got lulzy evil characters (I'm playing the Obscure Demure AZURE Sabateur (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnuYi-nzE90)), you can have great fun with it. BoED on the other hand, not so much. You can kind of chuckle at it, but it takes itself too seriously to really have much fun with. Plus, laughing at it at all is bad form when you've got people in the group whose religious beliefs are what the book is written for. Really, it's best to just avoid it altogether (except when making annoying NPC paladins).

Coidzor
2011-02-04, 03:59 PM
Out of the norm far enough is pretty hard to work with. Think it's bad having a lawful annoying paladin playing party cop?

Try having the saint with the vow of non-violence, etc. It might work for a very specific group, but it's not going to play well with the vast majority of D&D things, where killing people for their things is pretty standard.

That is my biggest objection to it. Tired of Paladins being dependent on your behavior to retain their abilities? Have some exalted characters. Who'll fall at the drop of the hat and lose, permanently mind, all of those precious 7 feats a character gets in its lifetime that it spent on being exalted. Atonement? That's for paladins and really bad druids, so these guys have to be extra strait-jackety.

That the designers thought this was a good idea after everyone and their mother made a trope out of hating the group's paladin player for being an unpleasant obstacle to dance around (and if I hear rightly, there was something like that going on even in earlier editions than 3rd) just baffles me, even if their intent was for only all exalted or at least all exalted/good parties.

Don't seem to be enough Exalted feats that aren't sacred vows either, so if one isn't careful one'll get saddled with the least onerous one possible when one is forced to do so by the bonus exalted feats.

And then you've got people who actually get sanctimonious about the Book of Vile Darkness as if it were actually evil. :smallconfused: What's up with that? First encountered any mention of it when I was a newbie starting out and found Pathguy's character creator online. Suffice to say, I was rather underwhelmed.

I can't recall exact details, but BoVD generally seems to earn a small concession of not having its morality quite as borked as that of BoED, and it's the one talking about what's evil. So maybe it's just because the job was simpler and harder to muck up. Not that they didn't, mind.

As far as I can tell, the fact that there's more material that can be used without tying one's hands is probably the advantage that was being cited to you.

And at least Mindrape is honest about how terrible of a thing it is, unlike Holy Mindrape.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:05 PM
Holy Mindrape? You mean Programmed Amnesia? :smallconfused:

Boci
2011-02-04, 04:08 PM
Holy Mindrape? You mean Programmed Amnesia? :smallconfused:

No, sanctify the wicked. Like mindrape, only it takes 1 year and can only change the target's alighment to good.

Aspenor
2011-02-04, 04:10 PM
No, sanctify the wicked. Like mindrape, only it takes 1 year and can only change the target's alighment to good.

Never heard of it. Interesting though. Stupid, but interesting. Thanks. :)

Coidzor
2011-02-04, 04:14 PM
Holy Mindrape? You mean Programmed Amnesia? :smallconfused:

No, that's Neutral Mindrape.

GhoulPolitician
2011-02-04, 04:15 PM
Disciple of Dispatar.

OzymandiasVolt
2011-02-04, 04:15 PM
The appeal of BoVD? Four words:

Apocalypse From The Sky.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-04, 04:21 PM
The Fiendish Codexes did a better job of defining "Evil" in the AD&D mythology, IMHO.

Silus
2011-02-04, 04:27 PM
Main thing I dislike about the BoVD is that seems to be the standard at which people judge Evil characters. At least in my experience.

I can't play an evil character without people worrying about rape, murder, torture, sacrifices, ect. ect..

And I personally fine the BoED to be, well, dull.

Evil > Good IMO

Coidzor
2011-02-04, 04:37 PM
Main thing I dislike about the BoVD is that seems to be the standard at which people judge Evil characters. At least in my experience.

I can't play an evil character without people worrying about rape, murder, torture, sacrifices, ect. ect..

Weird. Usually people assume that rape is off the table even for evil characters, I've found. Such that it's a special note of wanting to actually punch a DM in the face for introducing it into his games. As opposed to the more usual euphemism of throwing a book at him.

Murder's just par for the course for D&D though, so I'm not really sure why that's a concern, unless you mean intraparty murder, which does crop up an unfortunate amount of times in mixed alignment and evil parties. Something about evil equates to teamkilling for no reason other than the lulz for a lot of people.

Sacrifices are story material so I can't imagine how anyone could worry about those showing up without DM approval, in which case, the DM is as much at fault as the instigating player and steps taken with that in mind...

Silus
2011-02-04, 04:44 PM
Weird. Usually people assume that rape is off the table even for evil characters, I've found. Such that it's a special note of wanting to actually punch a DM in the face for introducing it into his games. As opposed to the more usual euphemism of throwing a book at him.

Murder's just par for the course for D&D though, so I'm not really sure why that's a concern, unless you mean intraparty murder, which does crop up an unfortunate amount of times in mixed alignment and evil parties. Something about evil equates to teamkilling for no reason other than the lulz for a lot of people.

Sacrifices are story material so I can't imagine how anyone could worry about those showing up without DM approval, in which case, the DM is as much at fault as the instigating player and steps taken with that in mind...

Well, I think the people I play with just expect the worst when I ask to play an evil character (almost always Lawful Evil). To be honest, I feel I'm just being honest with my alignment.

But yeah, rape is one of those things even I won't touch.

Interparty murder I don't bother with unless someone is being particularly annoying/useless. I try to play smart, and killing off other targets for the enemy's aggression isn't usually a smart thing.

I should probably make a thread on this so this thread does not get derailed...

gkathellar
2011-02-04, 05:01 PM
People like BoVD because it tries - it covers its share of horrible, awful, terrible things and it doesn't do a very good job of covering them, but it makes the attempt.

BoED doesn't. It takes everything in BoVD and just stamps the name "good" on it, instead of making a genuine attempt. Poisons? Ravages. Mindrape? Sanctify the Wicked? Evil prestige classes? Identical good prestige classes.

Eldan
2011-02-04, 05:04 PM
Well, I think the people I play with just expect the worst when I ask to play an evil character (almost always Lawful Evil). To be honest, I feel I'm just being honest with my alignment.

But yeah, rape is one of those things even I won't touch.

Interparty murder I don't bother with unless someone is being particularly annoying/useless. I try to play smart, and killing off other targets for the enemy's aggression isn't usually a smart thing.

I should probably make a thread on this so this thread does not get derailed...

You don't kill your colleagues for being annoying or useless.

Instead, you are the most intelligent and most generally useful party member. Probably a spellcaster.

Then you proceed to fail to save your colleague at a critical moment. You can't be blamed for that, really, that encounter was so difficult, and you just forgot to prepare that one spell.

Silus
2011-02-04, 05:07 PM
You don't kill your colleagues for being annoying or useless.

Instead, you are the most intelligent and most generally useful party member. Probably a spellcaster.

Then you proceed to fail to save your colleague at a critical moment. You can't be blamed for that, really, that encounter was so difficult, and you just forgot to prepare that one spell.

So "It was an accident! I thought he'd make it to the gate in time!" as opposed to "Oh Gods just die right now! *Fireball*"?

Eldan
2011-02-04, 05:11 PM
Yes.

Alternatively:

"I thought he'd make that grapple check against the purple worm, so I thought casting lightning bolt on the caster behind it was more important than Freedom of Movement!"

AslanCross
2011-02-04, 05:13 PM
The only really appealing thing to me in BoVD is the Kythons. Most of the book just feels too much like a splatterhouse horror movie to me. I prefer Heroes of Horror for making my players go "...that's freaking messed up."

Lord Loss
2011-02-04, 06:26 PM
My opinion on BoVD a book with lots of really cool spells, great ideas, the occasional awesome monsters, and too much squick. If you're not looking for a book to icky-fy your campaign, ignore the occasional disgusting bits and you'll have a blast. If you're one of the people looking to make your campaign feel like an NC-17 movie, you've come to the right place. As previously mentioned, the Kythons are quite awesome.

In summary:

Quite a bit of pure awesome, a bit too many disgusting bits and the rest is much like any WoTC supplement. The spells and monsters are the best of the lot.

NekoJoker
2011-02-04, 07:15 PM
Totally out of the nowhere but...


BOVD IS THE ONLY BOOK TO EVER FEATURE GILGAMESH FROM FATE/STAY NIGHT!!

AKA: The Dread Emperor



come on guys!!
Utterly evil [yeah, entry says CG... that's a LIE] - Check!
Golden Armor? - Check
Goes around appearently Unarmed? - Check
Unleashes MASSIVE amounts of damage to anyone who dares look at him funny? - Check!
Thinks himself the owner of everything in existance? - Check!


yep, that's gilgamesh for you

FMArthur
2011-02-04, 08:11 PM
I don't really care for it at all; Heroes of Horror provides more usable options, better thematics, broader appeal, and still has things in it that far out-cheese anything in BoVD anyway. After Heroes of Horror, there is a lot of evil stuff that is more useful mechanically with more usable fluff than BoVD: Libris Mortis, Exemplars of Evil, Champions of Ruin, Lords of Madness, and Fiendish Codex II. For pure DM villain material, Exemplars of Evil completely outclasses it, too. BoVD is the last place I look for good evil stuff because almost none of it really is especially unique, flavorful or useful.

Endarire
2011-02-05, 02:41 AM
I especially like the Soul Eater PrC and no light spell. Combine Soul Eater with an Anthropomorphic Squid Totemist2/WhirlPounce Barbarian1 for even more natural attack pain!

MeeposFire
2011-02-05, 03:20 AM
I like using a variant of vow of poverty to give my npcs level appropriate item bonuses without giving them all the actual stuff so I do not end up giving away too many items by having players fight npcs.

gomipile
2011-02-05, 03:25 AM
It also has the cantrip No Light, which is a really nice spell.

Re'ozul
2011-02-05, 03:26 AM
BovD is awesome for bestow-curse warlocks.
The indirect curses are pretty broken.
Kidnap someone with a LOT of friends.
Give him to a bestow-curse warlock.
See a good part of a city's habitants suffer.

Boci
2011-02-05, 03:30 AM
I especially like the Soul Eater PrC and no light spell. Combine Soul Eater with an Anthropomorphic Squid Totemist2/WhirlPounce Barbarian1 for even more natural attack pain!

Doesn't work, you can only soul drain 1 / round.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-05, 10:49 AM
People like BoVD because it tries - it covers its share of horrible, awful, terrible things and it doesn't do a very good job of covering them, but it makes the attempt.

BoED doesn't. It takes everything in BoVD and just stamps the name "good" on it, instead of making a genuine attempt. Poisons? Ravages. Mindrape? Sanctify the Wicked? Evil prestige classes? Identical good prestige classes.

What point me to a Swanmay but evil'; a Bear/psuedoDruid Prc but evil; a Assassin but fluff makes sense for it to be evil?

Likely you haven't read the Prcs in a while. Beloved of Valarian, Celestiasl mystic, Champion of Gwynharf, Lion of Talsid, Risen Martyr, Disciple of Bharrari, Slayer of Domiel (good "assassin"), and even Swanmay are unique.

Apophis775
2011-02-05, 01:50 PM
Sacrificing for delicious dark xp that can be used in crafting instead of my regular xp.

Randel
2011-02-05, 04:56 PM
I personally like the BoVD and BoED for the utility stuff. Evil and good don't really appeal to me as much as neutral greedy.

BoVD

Liquid Pain - extract concentrated pain from someone to get a substance that can be used to replace the XP cost of items, In theory this could let you build a huge factory that churns out stuff so you can craft magic items without sacrificing your own ability to level up (okay, I know that the leveling rules mean that you can get more XP by staying one level behind the rest of the party but thats getting a little meta for me). Plus the idea of a giant pain-extracting factory appeals to me both as a potential way to suck every last drop of resources out of the monsters we slay and to have a potential evil villian plot.

Nipple Clamps of Masochism - Converts pain into pleasure, potentially usefull for making a Distilled Joy factory and has all sorts of uses.... like eliminating pain in injured people so they can be healed with surgery. Or to put on my spellcaster so he has a good reason not to curl up in a ball in agony whenever an ogre hits a home run with his face.

Preserve Organ - a cantrip that effectivly acts like Gentle Repose on an organ. I'm sure this could be used to keep monster parts fresh for resale, use it to preserve bits of our dead allies for ressurection, and all sorts of stuff.


BoED

Distilled Joy - same as Liquid pain but uses happiness, Imagine a Distilled Joy factory where nipple clamps of masochism and a permanant symbol of pain leave peope in a perpetual state of bliss. It'd be like being on the best drugs ever while your favorite music plays... except everyone else would stay away from you because the groovy light you're basking in makes their skin blister when they get too close. The idea of shoving all my worst enemies into a literal Maximum Fun Chamber and just letting them groove out while sinister tubes extract the never-ending flow of joy from them is a really interesting concept from an etical point of view.

Merciful Spells - Letting my spellcaster convert spells to nonlethal damage (so he can carry them off to Distilled Joy Factories) sounds good as well.


Anyway, I guess I just like the fluff related stuff in these books, particularly the ones that can be used towards a neutral greedy alignment.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-05, 05:14 PM
While yes, risen martyr is unique, that is likely only because even wotc is not dumb enough to print that class twice.

Yup, ten levels of suck that you have to die to get into, can't escape, and rewards you by killing you again. Unique indeed.

Wabbajack
2011-02-05, 05:22 PM
Doesn't work, you can only soul drain 1 / round.

I don't see that mentioned anywhere. Care to explain?

The Vorpal Tribble
2011-02-05, 05:26 PM
I've used plenty of stuff from the Book of Exalted Deeds. Never much had a problem with it. Has useful stuff.

Cancer Mage is about all I found of interest from Book of Vile Darkness. It was vile without being all that interesting.

That being said, my campaigns tend to be gritty fantasy at best. I run some seriously dark campaigns that go beyond PG-13 in a variety of ways, but can do so with just your standard stuff.

All you need are the right descriptions. Don't even need BoVD for that. Give me a class, a monster and a location from core books, I'm talking nothing but the DMG, PHB 3.5, MM 3.5, an XPH, everything you can find in the SRD, and I'll raise hackles.

Bring it on.

Ashram
2011-02-05, 05:36 PM
For me, in BoVD there are three appealing choices, all of them weapon enhancements:

Fleshgrinding (Which was updated in MIC with more clarification): +2 bonus, successfully attack an enemy with a piercing or slashing weapon while activating this ability and the weapon continues to automatically hit the enemy using your stats for 5 rounds. Weapon can be removed by anyone but you with a DC 20 Strength check, for the wielder it's a standard action.

Marrowcrushing: +3 bonus, every successful attack with this weapon deals 1 point of Constitution damage. Super powerful in a mostly-human oriented game.

Souldrinking (Updated and ultra-nerfed in MIC): +4 bonus, every successful attack deals one negative level. A successful critical hit deals two negative levels and grants the wielder 1d8 temporary HP and +2 enhancement bonus on Strength

ThirdEmperor
2011-02-05, 05:43 PM
I like BoVD because it contains some useful options for evil characters. The fluff is.... So so, at best. Originality trumps plain being vile in my book, and BoVD outright says which one it has on the cover.

The Maximum Fun chamber though..... By Moradin, that's sick, twisted, and so brilliant that reading about it blinded me. Randel, you are a complete monster in the best sense of the phrase.

Saint GoH
2011-02-05, 05:48 PM
Someone already said it, but I feel the need to reiterate it.

Disciple of Dispater.

Plus I'm not really sure why people are so disgusted by the contents. I don't use any of it for PC's, but some of it can really make an NPC hated by the party. Sacrifices and all that what not get people who think BoED is the coolest thing since sliced bread all sorts of fired up.

TheCountAlucard
2011-02-05, 05:55 PM
Bring it on.Do it.

Pull the trigger (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG115.jpg)! Pull the freakin' (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG104.jpg) trigger (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG92.jpg)!

:smallconfused:

Err, I mean...

Do it.

Describe the monster (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG201.jpg)! Describe the freakin' (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG59.jpg) monster (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/MM35_gallery/MM35_PG207a.jpg)!

:smalltongue:

RebelRogue
2011-02-05, 05:57 PM
I found BoVD to have some cool stuff, but it's something I want to read in small doses: some of the less cartoony approaches to evil are rather squicky - which is sort of the point.

Anyway, yes, the Dread Emperor is an awesome villain, but to me somehow, the most horrifying character in that book is Sammael, the Cleric of Baalzebul:


Sammael, a male human, leads a cult of Baalzebul that controls an entire city. This dark place of ziggurat temples and charnel pits teems with drugs, debauchery, and bloody murder. He has a reputation as a rapist who cares not whether his victims are living or dead and an abuser of children and animals. A terrible sadist and drug abuser, he is addicted to mushroom powder.
I think the kicker, for me, is that he does all that stuff while having a Wisdom of 22! IMO, that just makes him so much more irredeemably horrible :smalleek:

Psyren
2011-02-05, 06:00 PM
Sammael sounds extremely cartoony, even by BoVD's standards. The addiction to mushroom powder cheapens his description (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking) as well; How is that worse than rape and necrophilia?

RebelRogue
2011-02-05, 06:03 PM
Sammael sounds extremely cartoony, even by BoVD's standards. The addiction to mushroom powder cheapens his description (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking) as well; How is that worse than rape and necrophilia?
I agree, that the mushroom powder is a little tame compared to the rest. However, I must watch the wrong cartoon :smalltongue:

mabriss lethe
2011-02-05, 06:29 PM
The BoVD has more useful crunch for a vicious minded player or DM to sling around but is still pretty annoying if you're looking to mine it for ideas. BoED is just as annoying for exactly the same reasons but lacks some of the nice crunchy morsels.

onthetown
2011-02-05, 06:33 PM
I have both of them and I like both of them equally, though I find BoED easier to use for my characters. My DM will point out that it's because the BoVD is "for DM use" or some such thing for the fiftieth time, but I like reading both of the books and I think they make great companions to each other.

What bothers me about BoVD, though, is how overrated they make vile magic out to be. I tried it, got some points of taint -- my character started to turn ugly, voices in her head told her to kill all humans, and when I took a good look at the spell list I realized it wasn't going to be worth it in the end and she had a change of heart and gave it up. Then she was physically and emotionally scarred for a few years until the DM finally threw me a bone and I got her to go searching for some holy pool of water that got rid of the taint. Cue happy ending music.

And I haven't tried any of the feats or prestige classes because they just seem, well... I mean, they're flavourful and everything, but they're what you would expect from a book about evil.

The BoED, on the other hand, I use frequently these days and I have a character almost solely built from it. I'm enjoying it.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-05, 06:36 PM
More like the Book of Mildly Unpleasant Dimness, mirite?:smallwink:

Basically, you've got the right impression. It's not as objectionable in all directions as the Book of Hypocritical Righteousness, instead just mostly bland with a few attempts at shock-value evulz.

Psyren
2011-02-05, 06:52 PM
I prefer BoED because it's actually trying to improve the game.

BoVD is focused on one thing: "EVULZ!!! Eat drug-covered babies with one hand while violating diseased virgin corpses with the other, all to power a spell that dangles your eyeball on its optic nerve so you can play tetherball with it in front of an orphanage. OMG SHOCK!" Even if the squick doesn't overload you into narm territory, peel it away and there's just nothing there.

Meanwhile, BoED has a ton of ideas. "Can I play D&D as a pacifist and still be effective?" "Can I give away my items/treasure and still be effective?" "How can I take casters prisoner and still protect people from them, without mutilating or executing them?" "When is killing monsters the wrong thing to do?" "The Upper Planes have no Blood War; does that mean they get along perfectly?" "Do I have to have levels in Paladin to be a paragon of Good? Isn't there a way to play, say, a holy Sorcerer or Barbarian?" "Is there a way to put more power in my spells without hurting anyone?"


BoED missed several marks on execution, but the intent is strong and there are very few books like it.

Randel
2011-02-05, 06:57 PM
I like BoVD because it contains some useful options for evil characters. The fluff is.... So so, at best. Originality trumps plain being vile in my book, and BoVD outright says which one it has on the cover.

The Maximum Fun chamber though..... By Moradin, that's sick, twisted, and so brilliant that reading about it blinded me. Randel, you are a complete monster in the best sense of the phrase.


Welcome to the Good Empire: nothing sinister going on here!

Our elite happiness patrols visit everyone regularly to see how they are feeling. Detect Evil and Detect Good is used regularly to spot the slightest bit of corruption before it can grow. If any citizen has slipped into Evil (or even neutrality) they are invited to our benevolence church where they can receive the proper therapy to bring them back to the side of Good. In the tougher cases mind-altering enchantments will be used to ensure a swift transformation.

In the most extreme cases, truly irredemable villains will be sent to the Maximum Fun Chamber where a nipple clamp of masochism and permanant symbol of pain will bask them in an unending glow of ... happyness. Most inhabitants of the Maximum Fun Chamber spend their days rolling around with big smiling faces, their bodies in a constant overloaded state of bliss. Distilled Joy extractors will siphon off the exess Joy where it can be bottled and used to create magic items or fuel our bustling magical industry. No matter how terrible they may have been before, their extracted joy can be used to save lives and help society!

Nonevil citizens may visit the Maximum Fun Chamber if they desire (after all, it wouldn't be fare reward only Evil people with this!) but it should be warned that constant exposure to the Maximum Fun Chamber can result in addiction to the waves of pure bliss. People exposed to the Maximum Fun Chamber for prolonged periods become used to it and their nerves unable to function properly without the Nipple Clamp of Masochism... Angroth the Eviscorator who had once terrorised the population of Bunnyville had spent two years in a Maximum Fun Chamber before he was broken out by former comrades.

Fortunatly, the once murderous ogre couldn't stand being seperated from the Maximum Fun Chamber... the bright light, cold sensations, and overall non-Maximum Funness of the physical universe felt impossibly opressive to him. His nerves which had adjusted to the leasure-pain reversing magic item were overloaded by contact with the outside world. Nerves that can felt nothing but pure unadulterated confort for over 673 straight days felt even the scratches of stone floors, the wooden handle of a battleaxe, the itchy feel of clothing, or even the light brushing of chilly air to be unimagiably unpleasant and he begged to return to his beloved chamber.

We of the Good Empire feel that the Maximum Fun Chamber is the answer to many of our worlds problems. Even the most hate-filled villain or monster enjoys pleasure and exposure to a Maximum Fun Chamber fulfilled every joyful sensation they would normally try to attain through mass murder or world conquest. A villain in a Maximum Fun Chamber is a villain who's having so much fun being tied up in a 10 by 10 by 10 room that he simply doesn't want to go through the hassle of devestating the world... or really doing anything at all (we occasionally have to feed them goodberry juice since they stop wanting to eat anything now that air tastes like quadruple fudge chocolate mixed with marshmellows).

The Good Empire: Because sufficiently advanced good cannot be comprehended by anything that might want to fight it.

Waker
2011-02-05, 06:59 PM
I agree with Psyren on his views of both books. I will add that if you ignore the shock value that BoVD tries to pull off, they do put forth some interesting prestige classes. Prior to this, if you wanted to be an evil class you had to go with assassin or blackguard. But now there were more options and your choice of a patron affected your powers far more than it would for a cleric choosing their domains. I rather like the idea of the Thralls/Disciples and the Soul Eater is just awesome.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-05, 07:02 PM
What bothers me about BoVD, though, is how overrated they make vile magic out to be. I tried it, got some points of taint -- my character started to turn ugly, voices in her head told her to kill all humans, and when I took a good look at the spell list I realized it wasn't going to be worth it in the end and she had a change of heart and gave it up. Then she was physically and emotionally scarred for a few years until the DM finally threw me a bone and I got her to go searching for some holy pool of water that got rid of the taint. Cue happy ending music.


Agreed with DM only:
Some spells have Fiend and Undead requirement. How does one cast that spell? Vampire imp?

Boci
2011-02-05, 10:58 PM
I don't see that mentioned anywhere. Care to explain?

Its supernatural ability, so unless stated otherwise it takes a standard action.

Coidzor
2011-02-05, 11:12 PM
The Maximum Fun chamber though..... By Moradin, that's sick, twisted, and so brilliant that reading about it blinded me. Randel, you are a complete monster in the best sense of the phrase.

Mmm, Lotus Eater Machine. :smallbiggrin:

SurlySeraph
2011-02-05, 11:36 PM
People like BoVD because it tries - it covers its share of horrible, awful, terrible things and it doesn't do a very good job of covering them, but it makes the attempt.

BoED doesn't. It takes everything in BoVD and just stamps the name "good" on it, instead of making a genuine attempt. Poisons? Ravages. Mindrape? Sanctify the Wicked? Evil prestige classes? Identical good prestige classes.

More or less this. BoVD has a lot of meh attempts at disgust and shock value, with some decent material. No matter how hard I try, I cannot read the phrase "Nipple Clamps of Exquisite Pain" without rolling my eyes.

BoED has way too many "Like that thing from BoVD, but good!" bits. You want a list?
Ravages, Afflictions (holy diseases. That only infect evil people. Bwuh?), Celestial Mystic (good Demonologist), Anointed Knight (good Warrior of Darkness), Slayer of Domiel (Good Assassin, but I'm happy with it because that was an unfilled niche), Stalker of Kharash (good Mortal Hunter), various other "devoted to this one celestial" PrCs like BoVD's various "devoted to this one fiend" PrCs, Words of Creation (good Dark Tongue), Channeling (demonic possession, but with angels), weak feats where you swear fealty to angels like the weak BoVD feats where you swear fealty to fiends, Deathless (good undead, and let me pause to rant about how positive energy undead are the stupidest idea ever).

To quote myself:

It had awful morality (PELOR REFUSED TO HELP KILL A VAMPIRE THAT MURDERED A PALADIN'S FAMILY. BECAUSE THE PALADIN WAS TOO ANGRY. THIS IS SUPPOSED TO REFLECT WELL ON PELOR), mostly disappointing PrCs, meh feats, questionable characters (WHY DOES THE ARCHANGEL WHO HAS AN ORDER OF ASSASSINS HAVE NO STEALTH?), even more questionable fluff (WHY ARE THERE MAUSOLEUMS IN HEAVEN?), and plenty of brokenness. Oh, and everything on Chaotic Good seemed thrown in as an afterthought.

BoED has some creative parts, like Vow of Poverty and the various nonviolence-encouraging things, but most of them just kinda fall flat. I'd like the fluff if it threw out suggestions about what the nature of Good in your game can be instead of making flat categorical statements about good that are very arguable.

Boci
2011-02-05, 11:42 PM
Sammael sounds extremely cartoony, even by BoVD's standards. The addiction to mushroom powder cheapens his description (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ArsonMurderAndJaywalking) as well; How is that worse than rape and necrophilia?

Its not, but it gives the PCs a way to get at him (prevent him from getting the drugs, or lace them with something else). I'm personally more bothered by the degree of his crimes. If rape isn't enough to say a bad guy is bad and you need to extend the pool of victims, then you as a DM have in all likelyhood done something wrong.

hamishspence
2011-02-07, 03:14 PM
.
Meanwhile, BoED has a ton of ideas. "Can I play D&D as a pacifist and still be effective?" "Can I give away my items/treasure and still be effective?" "How can I take casters prisoner and still protect people from them, without mutilating or executing them?" "When is killing monsters can be the wrong thing to do?" "The Upper Planes have no Blood War; does that mean they get along perfectly?" "Do I have to have levels in Paladin to be a paragon of Good? Isn't there a way to play, say, a holy Sorcerer or Barbarian?" "Is there a way to put more power in my spells without hurting anyone?"


BoED missed several marks on execution, but the intent is strong and there are very few books like it.

Agreed.

Champions of Ruin does cover Evil motivations in a bit more detail than BoVD- listing various reasons why a character might be doing evil things- ranging from "for the greater good" to "because they were raised that way" and so on.

So does Exemplars of Evil.

ericgrau
2011-02-07, 04:10 PM
BoED also gets flack from templates including the saint template and a dozen or more spells that are pretty powerful. VoP abuse came from monks, before everyone thought they were underpowered, and druids, before char op started cheesing other ways to get the benefits of gear while wildshaped. At the same time it's just power creep, not as crazy as other stuff that would never see the light of day in a game. Perhaps that's the danger, that some casual players might actually try some of the things in BoED and outshine other casual players without trying to. Then next session BoED gets flak.

JonestheSpy
2011-02-07, 04:34 PM
I agree with lots of what Psyren and Surlyseraph said (and yeah, why do game designers have such a hard time giving Chaotic Good any respect?). But I do think there's lots of stuff to pick and choose from in both books.

Running generally low-magic games, I like picking BoVD spells for my spellcasting villains. They might not be as mechanically powerful as SRD spells, but since it's low-magic all spells are pretty impressive, and the players don't know what the heck is going on - they just know it's creepy and disturbing when someone spits out their tongue and it then attacks the party...

navar100
2011-02-07, 04:55 PM
BoED also gets flack from templates including the saint template and a dozen or more spells that are pretty powerful. VoP abuse came from monks, before everyone thought they were underpowered, and druids, before char op started cheesing other ways to get the benefits of gear while wildshaped. At the same time it's just power creep, not as crazy as other stuff that would never see the light of day in a game. Perhaps that's the danger, that some casual players might actually try some of the things in BoED and outshine other casual players without trying to. Then next session BoED gets flak.

If a game is to use Book of Exalted Deeds, then all player characters should use it. However, I would agree it should not be used by novices to the game.