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Elric VIII
2011-02-05, 01:28 AM
I have been invited to a game that was described with: "roleplaying will definately be a big part." However, I'm not very good at RP, I just like designing characters. I want to try to make a character that requires RP from me. My thought is a Psion/Wizard, but any class that advances psionics and something else can work. The idea is that the character is a novice/apprentice at whatever the non-psionic class is and the build focuses mostly on advancing psioncs. He does not know he is psionic, only uses his powers in times of dire need, and does not have any powers that can be attributed to his own doing (such as Psionic Knock explained away as his talent to unlock doors). Regularly he is a rather unskilled version of whatever the other side of his class is.

If this is not viable I was thinking of a character that is just a scholar (focusing on all the knowledge skills), and keeping with the theme of not knowing about his powers. In this case I would play him as more of a generic class expert-type character, but thinking he's using his knowledge to overcome problems, but actually accessing his powers.

I would like some advice on classes to pursue (Cerebremancer seems quite horrible), perhaps things published by WotC online. Advice on feats or general RP advice would also be welcome.

Thank you.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-05, 01:37 AM
Think about what your character would do if they were actually in the world portrayed and you were not a bunch of guys and gals sitting around a table rolling strange dice. Mountain dew and cheetos are optional. If they see a slavering monster are they more likely to run and hide or stand and fight? You don't have to have a deep and angsty back story to have fun role playing. I played a CN Gnome Barbarian in Pathfinder and it was a blast.
Bad Scottish accent? Check.
Violent drunkenness? Check.
Constant growling threats to chop the 'Big Uns' down to size? Check, check and double check.
My throat was so sore by the time the night was over but I had so much fun.

Elric VIII
2011-02-05, 01:50 AM
Think about what your character would do if they were actually in the world portrayed and you were not a bunch of guys and gals sitting around a table rolling strange dice. Mountain dew and cheetos are optional. If they see a slavering monster are they more likely to run and hide or stand and fight? You don't have to have a deep and angsty back story to have fun role playing. I played a CN Gnome Barbarian in Pathfinder and it was a blast.
Bad Scottish accent? Check.
Violent drunkenness? Check.
Constant growling threats to chop the 'Big Uns' down to size? Check, check and double check.
My throat was so sore by the time the night was over but I had so much fun.

I guess I think that I would have a problem playing a character other than me with magic powers if I didn't have some hook on which I could focus.

Endarire
2011-02-05, 02:19 AM
"Dragon 349 " has the Psiotheurgist feat, allowing you to stack manifester levels and caster levels for a certain school/discipline.

In such a case, I recommend this build, which works much better if you ignore Complete Psionic's astral construct nerf:

Human OR Strongheart Halfling Conjurer1/Shaper3/Cerebremancer10/X

1: {Aggressive}, {Murky-Eyed}, {Noncombatant}, {Spellgifted: Conjuration}
1: [Abrupt Jaunt]
1: , Practiced Manifester OR -=FEAT=-, Practiced Spellcaster, Precocious Apprentice, Spell Focus: Conjuration
2: [Boost Construct OR Practiced Manifester]
3: Psiotheurgist
6: -=FEAT=-
9: -=FEAT=-
12: -=FEAT=-
15: -=FEAT=-
18: -=FEAT=-

-=FEAT POOL=-
*Psionic Feat

*Boost Construct
*Durable Construct ([i]Hyperconscious 40)
*Linked Power (Complete Psionic 62)
*Overchannel
*Practiced Manifester
*Psionic Meditation
*Talented
*Transcend Limits (Hyperconscious 44)

[color=blue]Another Consideration[/url]
-If you can get an especially favorable Personal Construct (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070411a) interpretation, meaning the entire construct is free, then delaying Cerebremancer for 2 levels is probably worth it.

-Spellgifted is a tradeoff in this build. You get more powerful constructs sooner, but a lower overall Wizard caster level. Spellgifted is best taken at levels when you won't lose spell access due to low CL.

Ravens_cry
2011-02-05, 02:40 AM
I guess I think that I would have a problem playing a character other than me with magic powers if I didn't have some hook on which I could focus.
Ok then, play you. In fact many newbie role playing guides encourage it. Act like you would if this was happening to you for real.

Knaight
2011-02-05, 02:48 AM
You should be able to role play regardless of the mechanics of your character, so there is no need to worry about that. As for what to roleplay other than yourself, you can always start with an archetype. Grab a stock character from Comedia Dell'arte and go to town, then just allow them to develop. Roleplaying isn't hard, once you get started, you should be fine.

arguskos
2011-02-05, 02:49 AM
I guess I think that I would have a problem playing a character other than me with magic powers if I didn't have some hook on which I could focus.
Have you heard of method acting? It's what I use in real life games to get into character. The idea with method acting (to give you the short and dirty version, anyways) is that you need to get into your character's head and figure out what makes them tick. Live like your character, and everything just sorta flows, since then, when you're RPing, you just act *normally* and it all works out.

To do this right, you need to say to yourself, "ok, so, what would this guy do? He's a psion who doesn't realize he's a psion, and just is a kinda crappy wizard who stuff seems to always go right for. What's that about? What would that do to someone's psyche?" Then, you live as if you're that guy. It's not so complex as it sounds, but it takes a lot of practice. Once you get it down, it's awesome though.

For example, right now I'm working on my character for an upcoming Judge Dredd d20 game, Psi-Judge Tiberius Pain (yeah, he's Judge T. Pain :smallbiggrin:). Pain was assigned to a crappy Sector House for awhile, and as a Psi-Judge, already had a bit of a chip on his shoulder, so he fought real hard to have a good arrest record, kept himself on the straight and narrow, never partook of any of the amenities afforded psi-judges, and lived like a standard street judge (ie. a very spartan and hard life). When his hard work and great record was finally recognized, he was transferred to a much nicer, better funded, higher profile Sector House, but that chip never went away. He's a real hard ass, never deviates from the Law for any reason, never relaxes, is always on edge. He uses his psi powers rarely, preferring standard methods, hoping to prove that just because he's a psi-judge, it doesn't mean he can't get down there on the streets and get arrests like any common flat-foot! He's harsh and uncompromising, even for a judge (which should tell you something). I'm going to play him accordingly, as a harsh, cold, bitter man whose strongest desire is that perps see him as only the faceless Law they fear so much and that his fellow judges acknowledge and respect his skill as a street judge. I'm not an amazing method actor, truth be told, but I try hard to get into the character's mind and really act like they would, doing things I normally wouldn't, in the name of the character. I probably won't eat during session (we usually do), because Pain wouldn't eat on patrol, and similar little nuances.

Dimers
2011-02-05, 03:08 AM
I have been invited to a game that was described with: "roleplaying will definately be a big part." ... Regularly he is a rather unskilled version of whatever the other side of his class is.

I'm not a useful source for build suggestions, but here are some questions to help you flesh out a strong background. For many people, knowing the character's history naturally leads to RPing. If that's not the case for you, you might try listing examples of major emotions: one thing the character fears, one thing he cherishes, one thing he's envious of, one thing he's obsessed about ...

How does the character feel about being so unskilled among great heroes? What makes him feel welcome among them? How did he get involved in adventuring to begin with? What was his first adventure like?

How does he react to strangers? How does he treat friends? What makes someone his friend and not just an acquaintance? Who is important to him? Who might he sacrifice himself to save?

What is his family like, if he has any?

Is he ever treated differently because of his powers and abilities? Because of his personality? Do his powers cause him to treat others differently when they manifest? -- for example, maybe he psionic charms people when stressed out, or maybe he normally acts bold but the psionic part of his mind is cautious.

Who was the greatest influence on his moral code?

What sort of experiences has he had with death?

What does he do for fun?

How has he supported himself in the past? How did he come to own the gear he's got now?

What aspect of the character is his key to success? Does he realize it? How have his strengths and weaknesses changed over time? What can he do now that he had dreamed of as a child?

Elric VIII
2011-02-05, 03:20 AM
So, what I'm getting is that I should write up a base personality and try to get into its mindset, but not try to dictate it's direction the way you would plan a build. I've played a few games and my characters all end up being pragmatic and cynical to the point of being generally unpleasant (basically a caricature of me).

@Endarire: I'll look into those build suggestions, since I still want to be relevant in terms of power.

Thank you for the input.

arguskos
2011-02-05, 03:22 AM
So, what I'm getting is that I should write up a base personality and try to get into its mindset, but not try to dictate it's direction the way you would plan a build. I've played a few games and my characters all end up being pragmatic and cynical to the point of being generally unpleasant (basically a caricature of me).
Indeed. You have to just let the character flow naturally. It takes a lot of practice, but it's very fun.

Also, you have an excellent choice of username/avatar. Good man.

Warlawk
2011-02-05, 07:06 AM
I'm not a useful source for build suggestions, but here are some questions to help you flesh out a strong background. For many people, knowing the character's history naturally leads to RPing. If that's not the case for you, you might try listing examples of major emotions: one thing the character fears, one thing he cherishes, one thing he's envious of, one thing he's obsessed about ...

How does the character feel about being so unskilled among great heroes? What makes him feel welcome among them? How did he get involved in adventuring to begin with? What was his first adventure like?

How does he react to strangers? How does he treat friends? What makes someone his friend and not just an acquaintance? Who is important to him? Who might he sacrifice himself to save?

What is his family like, if he has any?

Is he ever treated differently because of his powers and abilities? Because of his personality? Do his powers cause him to treat others differently when they manifest? -- for example, maybe he psionic charms people when stressed out, or maybe he normally acts bold but the psionic part of his mind is cautious.

Who was the greatest influence on his moral code?

What sort of experiences has he had with death?

What does he do for fun?

How has he supported himself in the past? How did he come to own the gear he's got now?

What aspect of the character is his key to success? Does he realize it? How have his strengths and weaknesses changed over time? What can he do now that he had dreamed of as a child?

This is largely what I was going to post as well. Forget your mechanics for a minute and realize that he is a person. He came from somewhere and has all that mental/emotional baggage he carries around just like any other living person. Figure out why he is out doing this crazy life risking stuff and how it relates to his own background, and that gives you a solid base to RP from.

I'm just starting a new character since my last one was a bad fit for the game, and part of what I wanted was stronger RP. I know what my character did growing up, what kind of family it was and where they are now as well as why the character ended up becoming an adventurer. First session with the new character is tomorrow night, and I'm looking forward to it. I feel like I have a much stronger "person" in this one because I took the time to flesh out the specifics of family and childhood instead of keeping them vague like my last one. I knew where he was from, what his parents did etc... but didn't name them, or come up with nearly as many specific details. The last one felt like a backstory, and this one feels like a person, if that makes any sense.

Psyren
2011-02-05, 08:49 AM
(Cerebremancer seems quite horrible)

Not at all, it's actually quite good. Remember that psionics and magic have a lot of synergy (not least of which is due to wizard/psions and sorcerer/wilders being SAD) and that low-level psionic powers tend to have a lot of utility even at higher levels.

What books/sources are you allowed for the mechanical portion of this concept?

Innis Cabal
2011-02-05, 08:52 AM
It's a little old but maybe this will help?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185706

Quietus
2011-02-05, 09:09 AM
So, what I'm getting is that I should write up a base personality and try to get into its mindset, but not try to dictate it's direction the way you would plan a build. I've played a few games and my characters all end up being pragmatic and cynical to the point of being generally unpleasant (basically a caricature of me).

@Endarire: I'll look into those build suggestions, since I still want to be relevant in terms of power.

Thank you for the input.

That's pretty much it. Every character you play will always have SOME aspect of yourself in it - whether it's a practical northman with a strong moral code, an experience-hungry hedonist bard, or a snake-themed judgemental druid. These are all characters I've played, and each of them held some aspect of myself, magnified. The trick is taking some aspect you think would be interesting, playing it up, and building around that. So for this character, think about who he is, how he got where he is, and let his personality naturally form around that. Don't worry about specifically putting yourself into it, that'll happen naturally. But I do recommend being aware enough of this to avoid the same rut you claim to have with all your characters being pragmatic and cynical; Try and create something different, and you'll hopefully find it a rewarding experience.

Welknair
2011-02-05, 11:44 AM
If the game is going to be RP heavy, then I wouldn't worry too much about your build unless everyone else is super-optimized. Just make sure you don't bar Enchantment.

And I agree with Psyren, the synergy is quite nice and I think it would be your best option to pursuing both at once (without which you are going to be even weaker). And again, those few ML/CL shouldn't make a terrible difference as long as you can do the basics. What level character are you guys playing? I'm assuming mid-levels, in which case the only concern may be whether or not you can Teleport by this point (My party has been hounding our wizard until she got it). Then again, that's part of his charm.

Another idea is to start with a very unoptimized build without any synergistic PrCs (Such as Cerebremancer). Your character would slowly gain Psion levels and then he could have one of those huge, dramatic moments where he realizes his full potential and he gets an instant respec, trading in a bunch of his psion and wizard levels for said synergistic class. Assuming that he would start with more Wizard levels than Psion, this would result in his Psion abilities suddenly surging up to the point his Wizard skills are at. Then he goes all Chuck-Norris on the BBEG. Or something like that.

Elric VIII
2011-02-05, 12:37 PM
Also, you have an excellent choice of username/avatar. Good man.

Thank you.


This is largely what I was going to post as well. Forget your mechanics for a minute and realize that he is a person. He came from somewhere and has all that mental/emotional baggage he carries around just like any other living person. Figure out why he is out doing this crazy life risking stuff and how it relates to his own background, and that gives you a solid base to RP from.

So, I was thinking I could try to model my character's personality after someone I know and see if that would help me get into his mind.


Not at all, it's actually quite good. Remember that psionics and magic have a lot of synergy (not least of which is due to wizard/psions and sorcerer/wilders being SAD) and that low-level psionic powers tend to have a lot of utility even at higher levels.

What books/sources are you allowed for the mechanical portion of this concept?

Any WotC books + Dragon Magazine are ok, subject to approval. I figured cerebremancer was just as bad as MT, unless you enter it with 1 level of Ardent + Practiced Manifester. It seems that powers take less of a hit from losing actual progression while using PM to gain MLs than spellcasting with PS.


It's a little old but maybe this will help?

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=185706

This was a good link.


Another idea is to start with a very unoptimized build without any synergistic PrCs (Such as Cerebremancer). Your character would slowly gain Psion levels and then he could have one of those huge, dramatic moments where he realizes his full potential and he gets an instant respec, trading in a bunch of his psion and wizard levels for said synergistic class. Assuming that he would start with more Wizard levels than Psion, this would result in his Psion abilities suddenly surging up to the point his Wizard skills are at. Then he goes all Chuck-Norris on the BBEG. Or something like that.

So, should I discuss with my DM that I would like to try to have a dramatic moment or just hope it comes up?


I was also thinking about Erudite, since it limits versatility if I don't scribe extra powers, but once I realize I'm psionic I can begin to increse my repertoire. I keep hearing that this class is broken, however. Is this simply due to the Erudite=Wizard and Psion=Sorcerer relation?

Welknair
2011-02-05, 12:54 PM
Yeah, I'd suggest discussing it with your DM. If they're going for an RP-heavy game, I'm sure that they'd be fine with it (Remember to point out that you aren't gaining power beyond what you could have started with. It's just awesome character development). And given what you were looking at for your character, it would be inevitable that it'd happen at some point.

erikun
2011-02-05, 03:03 PM
The first thing I would recommend is to get a clear character concept in your head, and make sure you can play it in front of other people. I haven't really seen much of a character concept discussed so far in this thread. It's just been "He's a wizard who has natural psionic powers." What is the character like? Is he a methodological note taker? Is he a compulsive mapper, insisting on knowing where he is at all times? Perhaps he is a bit of an artist, hearing the 'music of the spheres' (really, psionic undercurrents) and constantly humming to himself. Perhaps he is just magic-obsessed, insisting on examining any magical item and trying to decipher any old writing he comes across. Which one you pick will probably decide what kinds of skills he focuses on.

Secondly, I would recommend having a build that actually works well. I have played interesting RP characters with unusual builds, and I can say that a lot of the motivation for roleplaying drains away when your character can't do what he is supposedly able to do, or when you need to wait 5 levels for him to do the 'interesting' stuff.

Third, is it necessary for the character to be psionic at all? From your description, you're looking for a spellcaster that unconciously activates a psionic power in rare occurances. 10+ levels of Psion don't seem to be something you would reserve for "rare occurances". It seems more like you want something like Hidden Talent, granting you a few PP and a single power. Or perhaps you want to be a Wizard, Cloistered Cleric, or even Erudite focused on psionic study. A Wizard with Kno: Psionics and the Hidden Talent feat might explain your character better than the Cerebremancer.

Something like Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus (with Practiced Spellcaster for the Sorcerer) could also work well for a Wizard who "unconciously" uses his inherent magical abilities to strengthen his wizardly powers.


I keep hearing that this class is broken, however. Is this simply due to the Erudite=Wizard and Psion=Sorcerer relation?
It is due to memorizing the Wizard's entire spellbook, then being able to use any power at any time like the Sorcerer. Spell-to-Power Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), if you're not familiar with it.

The "normal" Erudite is typically not seen as that broken, depending on how you interpret the table. Spell-to-Power generally is, because spells generally have much bigger potential effects than powers.

Elric VIII
2011-02-05, 05:12 PM
The first thing I would recommend is to get a clear character concept in your head, and make sure you can play it in front of other people. I haven't really seen much of a character concept discussed so far in this thread. It's just been "He's a wizard who has natural psionic powers." What is the character like? Is he a methodological note taker? Is he a compulsive mapper, insisting on knowing where he is at all times? Perhaps he is a bit of an artist, hearing the 'music of the spheres' (really, psionic undercurrents) and constantly humming to himself. Perhaps he is just magic-obsessed, insisting on examining any magical item and trying to decipher any old writing he comes across. Which one you pick will probably decide what kinds of skills he focuses on.

As a result of the advice I've been given, I was considering just being the Psion-scholar choosing the Telepath discipline. I would play my character like he was a Factotum, but rather than using skills I would use psionics and attribute his success to his schooling and studies.

Some Ideas:
Bolt: I get lucky with my shots and always seem to have enough ammo.
Psionic Charm: Bluff/Diplomacy
Psioic Knock: Disable Device
Read Thoughts: Sense Motive

I figure if I take 2-3 levels in another class I can learn Schism at level 10-ish and wait until the dramatic event that I have discussed with the DM to happen to first use that power. This will serve as a turning point when I realize what I can do.

Also, I'm going to have a "lucky stone" that is actually my psicrystal. This will give me something to attribute my good fortune to and it's an interesting quirk to have a comfort object.


Secondly, I would recommend having a build that actually works well. I have played interesting RP characters with unusual builds, and I can say that a lot of the motivation for roleplaying drains away when your character can't do what he is supposedly able to do, or when you need to wait 5 levels for him to do the 'interesting' stuff.

This is part of the reason I started this thread, I recently started another thread about trying to make an interesting character and i was advised that it would be rather useless. This (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=10299042#post10299042) was the character, and it ended up wasting too many resources focusing on the RP element that I was told that it would be rather weak.


Third, is it necessary for the character to be psionic at all? From your description, you're looking for a spellcaster that unconciously activates a psionic power in rare occurances. 10+ levels of Psion don't seem to be something you would reserve for "rare occurances". It seems more like you want something like Hidden Talent, granting you a few PP and a single power. Or perhaps you want to be a Wizard, Cloistered Cleric, or even Erudite focused on psionic study. A Wizard with Kno: Psionics and the Hidden Talent feat might explain your character better than the Cerebremancer.

There's 2 reasons for my attempt at psionics. First, I would really like to try them out as I have made some theoretical psionic builds but have never had a chance to play them. Second, the fact that there are no somatic/verbal components, only sensory ones, helps with making it believable that he doesn't realize he's doing it. As for the rare use, I was thinking of only using the ostentatious powers rarely, focusing mostly on the subtle.
Something like Wizard 4/Sorcerer 1/Ultimate Magus (with Practiced Spellcaster for the Sorcerer) could also work well for a Wizard who "unconciously" uses his inherent magical abilities to strengthen his wizardly powers.



It is due to memorizing the Wizard's entire spellbook, then being able to use any power at any time like the Sorcerer. Spell-to-Power Erudite (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20070629a), if you're not familiar with it.

The "normal" Erudite is typically not seen as that broken, depending on how you interpret the table. Spell-to-Power generally is, because spells generally have much bigger potential effects than powers.

I figured it was something like this, I guess the limit on the number of different powers is rather irrelevant. I understand the problem with Spell-to-Power, that's just amazing.