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Katana_Geldar
2011-02-13, 03:53 AM
Okay, I was joint DMing last night and one of the players asked me about falling damage. I explained it was in lots of d10 according to distance. Then he asked me in his turn if he could teleport up into thin air, taking an enemy with him and then landing. He could take the damage, the other guy could not.

I said no, as it's teleport not fly and teleporting is supposed to be about going across to somewhere else, and if it's up or down there needs to be somewhere to lands.

Yet he pointed out, and was right in RAW, that there's nothing in teleport about direction.

All the same, teleporting up makes little sense and my fellow DM vetoed it as well.

But I would like to know a few views from the playground on this.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-13, 03:58 AM
Guessing he's a Pursuit Avenger! That's a very cool part of his build, and shouldn't be denied to him.

HOWEVER, Wizards just had an errata about this. Yes, he can teleport up! But, if he teleports an enemy into an unsafe area, such as midair where there could be falling damage, the enemy gets a saving throw to prevent it. If he makes it, the teleport fails to happen on both ends, however the attack still occurs as normal.


Does dat help?

Kurald Galain
2011-02-13, 04:26 AM
But, if he teleports an enemy into an unsafe area, such as midair where there could be falling damage, the enemy gets a saving throw to prevent it.
Almost. By RAW, the creature only gets a save for explicit "hindering terrain" and for places where he would fall. Any other kind of "unsafe" area (such as standing next to the Fighter, or into a Web spell) is fair game.

And yeah, it took WOTC more than a year to realize that people might want to teleport upwards. Talk about limited playtesting...

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-13, 05:14 AM
Guessing he's a Pursuit Avenger! That's a very cool part of his build, and shouldn't be denied to him.


No, this is a Ghostwalker Monk who was immobilised in the game. I pointed out he could still teleport.

dsmiles
2011-02-13, 06:05 AM
Teleporting up seems perfectly logical to me. After all, in 4e, a square is a square is a square, no matter the direction you move through it.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-13, 06:10 AM
You see, there's teleporting up to something. Like up a cliff, down a ledge or to hang on to something, then there's teleporting into mid-air with nothing to stand on.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-13, 06:15 AM
Teleporting up seems perfectly logical to me. After all, in 4e, a square is a square is a square, no matter the direction you move through it.
Actually that is called a "cube" :smallbiggrin:

dsmiles
2011-02-13, 06:18 AM
Actually that is called a "cube" :smallbiggrin:
:smalltongue:

FelixG
2011-02-13, 06:49 AM
You see, there's teleporting up to something. Like up a cliff, down a ledge or to hang on to something, then there's teleporting into mid-air with nothing to stand on.

Does the power specifically say you have to end up standing on something? if not then yes, he could do it.

Though if he is immobilized how was he planning on garbing the person to teleport?

dsmiles
2011-02-13, 06:53 AM
Does the power specifically say you have to end up standing on something? if not then yes, he could do it.

Though if he is immobilized how was he planning on garbing the person to teleport?Because being immobilized in 4e simply means you can't move from your square without teleporting.

WinWin
2011-02-13, 07:03 AM
If you wanted to houserule that teleportation has to have a solid surface at the destination point, that is your perogative. I have to ask though, would you forbid a character using another mode of movement to go up? Jumping, climbing and flight are all forms of movement that allow upward travel. They all have potential for risk. Why should a character that has a magical mode of travel be penalised for a potentially reckless use?

I am not talking about offensive use of teleport here, such as launching enemies into the air. That is another topic entirely. This is about how a character is allowed to use their own movement abilities

As I see it, the main problem with the scenario you are describing is the order in which actions take place. As soon as the character is airborne, they fall. Readying an action to grab and then teleporting would be the RAW way to do it. Keep in mind this may require action point expenditure due the wording of readied actions

Shatteredtower
2011-02-13, 08:15 AM
You see, there's teleporting up to something. Like up a cliff, down a ledge or to hang on to something, then there's teleporting into mid-air with nothing to stand on.

That could have made the ability less useful than forced movement of other types, as I could still push or pull enemies off a cliff. In any case, forced movement into falling damage is supposed to allow creatures to avoid it, by means of both a saving throw and a skill check. Where it gets nasty is with teleporting a target beyond the reach of some surface to grab with an athletics check.

Then again, a teleportation to height attack is among the least reliable means to damage an opponent. You're more likely to hit its defenses than it is to fail the saving throw. The extra damage may be worth the risk, but not so much when you have to take that damage even if your target does not.

Straight-up teleport attacks are limited by ceiling height and against flyers, but damage tends to be bearable anyway.

Talyn
2011-02-13, 08:21 AM
Fun fact: because of the way 4E calculates distance, you can actually teleport the same number of squares "up" as you can "over" at the same time. A 5 square teleport can put you 25 feet away to the west, 25 feet away to the north, and 25 feet away UP - effectively doubling your teleport distance while traveling the same number of squares.

D&D physics makes no sense, and you just have to go with it.

Also, RAW for teleporting doesn't say you have to have solid ground to land on, though, as was mentioned before, teleporting somebody ELSE to a place where they would fall gives them a saving throw.

tcrudisi
2011-02-13, 08:56 AM
It's important to note that with an item such as Catstep Boots (Property: When you fall or jump down, you take only half normal falling damage and always land on your feet), teleporting is a viable way of ignoring the prone condition. Say your Eladrin Swordmage is prone and 5 squares away from the bad guy he needs to tank. No problem: as a move action he teleports beside the bad guy, except 1 square up. He falls 1 square, takes 0 damage, and lands on his feet. (He'll also incur an Opp Attack, incidentally). Then he has his minor action to mark and a Standard to attack with.

This may be more strategically sound than standing as a move, charging with a basic attack (yuck if he doesn't have Intelligent Blademaster), and not getting to mark.

It does require you to have an item or ability that says "You always land on your feet", though, since using Acrobatics to pull this trick doesn't work.

linebackeru
2011-02-13, 09:00 AM
I don't see a reason to explicitly prohibit that. What if a wizard wanted to get off of the ground, but didn't have Fly prepared? Instead, he teleports straight up and then casts Feather Fall.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-13, 09:12 AM
He falls 1 square, takes 0 damage, and lands on his feet. (He'll also incur an Opp Attack, incidentally).
It's a decent combo, and this does not strike me as overpowered or problematic.

By the way, there has been lots of debate and no official word on whether falling provokes opportunity attacks: some people argue that gravity's pull counts as forced movement.

Shatteredtower
2011-02-13, 09:43 AM
It does require you to have an item or ability that says "You always land on your feet", though, since using Acrobatics to pull this trick doesn't work.

An "acrobatic stunt" check ought to cover it. DMs should encourage skill usage over item powers whenever possible.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-13, 02:06 PM
I don't see a reason to explicitly prohibit that. What if a wizard wanted to get off of the ground, but didn't have Fly prepared? Instead, he teleports straight up and then casts Feather Fall.

Now I remember it, he had an item that granted Feather Fall...

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-13, 02:30 PM
FYI, the RAW:
A teleportation power transports creatures or objects instantaneously from one location to another.

You use these rules when you use a teleportation power on a target, which might be yourself, another creature, or an object.

Instantaneous: Teleportation is instantaneous. The target disappears and immediately appears in the destination space you choose. The movement is unhindered by intervening creatures, objects, or terrain.

Destination Space: The destination of the teleportation must be an unoccupied space that the target can occupy without squeezing. If arriving in the destination space would cause the target to fall or if that space is hindering terrain, the target can make a saving throw. On a save, the teleportation is negated.

Line of Sight: You must have line of sight to the destination space.

No Line of Effect: Neither you nor the target needs line of effect to the destination space.

No Opportunity Actions: The target doesnt provoke opportunity actions for leaving its starting position.

Immobilized or Restrained: Being immobilized or restrained doesnt prevent a target from teleporting. If a target teleports away from a physical restraint, a monsters grasp, or some other immobilizing effect that is located in a specific space, the target is no longer immobilized or restrained. Otherwise, the target teleports but is still immobilized or restrained when it reaches the destination space.
Highlighted for emphasis. One thing to remember is that you probably would have been fine with teleporting someone off the edge of a cliff even though you would have also been teleporting to "nothing." The updated teleportation rules make for easier adjudication.

Mando Knight
2011-02-13, 02:35 PM
some people argue that gravity's pull counts as forced movement.
It obviously is. After all, the Earth is forcing you to move toward it at 9.81 m/s.:smalltongue:

Blackfang108
2011-02-13, 03:44 PM
It obviously is. After all, the Earth is forcing you to move toward it at 9.81 m/s.:smalltongue:

No, it accelerates us twoards it at 9.81 m/s.

Our speed depends on how long we've been falling.

rayne_dragon
2011-02-13, 03:58 PM
I don't see a reason to explicitly prohibit that. What if a wizard wanted to get off of the ground, but didn't have Fly prepared? Instead, he teleports straight up and then casts Feather Fall.

My eladrin wizard has done this to get into range to cast certain spells on flying enemies... without the feather fall part.


If arriving in the destination space would cause the target to fall or if that space is hindering terrain, the target can make a saving throw. On a save, the teleportation is negated.


Given that the rules specifically refer to being able to teleport targets somewhere they can fall, I would say that teleporting up is perfectly viable. It just doesn't normally make sense to teleport up without a surface to land on. This is part of what makes attack powers that teleport the targets rather appealing.

Plus, 4e is a very mechanical rule set. When a player thinks outside the box, it seems that it is usually better to reward their cleverness than to punish it.

Worira
2011-02-13, 04:01 PM
Yeah, there are several attack powers that do almost nothing aside from teleporting your enemy a long distance. The point is to teleport them up.

I'm not sure that you can take someone with you while teleporting by grabbing them, though. In fact, I'm pretty sure you can't.

hamishspence
2011-02-13, 04:02 PM
in a game that already uses flying, teleporting while in flight, to, for example, enter a castle via a slit window, may make sense.

In which case, it may not be necessary to require a surface to land on.

MeeposFire
2011-02-13, 04:26 PM
No, it accelerates us twoards it at 9.81 m/s.

Our speed depends on how long we've been falling.

Of course if you believe Einstein you are not being pulled by the Earth. You are being pushed towards the center of the Earth by Earth's effect on space time. Fortunately this does not change the conversation since a push is also a form of forced movement.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-13, 04:28 PM
Given that the rules specifically refer to being able to teleport targets somewhere they can fall, I would say that teleporting up is perfectly viable.
Well, the confusing part is that these rules are not in any of the PHB/DMG books. They're only found online, or recently in the RulCom.


Yeah, there are several attack powers that do almost nothing aside from teleporting your enemy a long distance. The point is to teleport them up.
Conversely, there are also several attack powers where the writer of the power clearly did not consider upwards teleportation (e.g. Maelstrom of Chaos). That's what you get from having multiple designers.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-13, 04:46 PM
Not sure if this is official errata or just homebrew, but in my last game this came up a lot, and this is what everyone decided was fair:

If any creature is being forcibly moved into a square where there was nothing for them to stand on (like teleported into the air or pushed off a cliff), that creature gets a saving throw. If it succeeds, the creature is instead moved to the closest square to the intended destination that's on solid ground (unless it was a teleport effect, in which case it doesn't move at all), and the creature falls prone. If it fails the saving throw, it is pushed or slid or whatever into thin air, and it takes appropriate falling damage.

EXAMPLES:
Wizard pushes hobgoblin four squares using Thunderwave, and chooses a rather deep hole as square number four. Hobgoblin makes a saving throw. He fails, and falls into the pit.

Same Wizard hits a pair of hobgoblins with Twist of Space, and attempts to 'port them both into the air. Both make saving throws. Hobgoblin A succeds and falls prone, hobgoblin B fails and is teleported into thin air, where he promptly falls and takes an extra d10 damage.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-13, 05:13 PM
Not sure if this is official errata or just homebrew, but in my last game this came up a lot, and this is what everyone decided was fair:
Looks fair to me.

(edit) in my experience, pushing people off cliffs comes up all the time, and tele-dropping rarely does; this is probably because there are many more ways to push enemies (Bull Rush and Thunderwave being the most obvious) than to teleport them.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-13, 05:58 PM
You know what, you all give reasonable arguments and next session I'm going to tell him it was a bad ruling and to go for it.

I didn't have the compendium with me at the time, just PHB so no errataed entry on teleport. And I think his teleporting is a monk ability where he teleports someone with him.

Fox Box Socks
2011-02-13, 06:02 PM
You know what, you all give reasonable arguments and next session I'm going to tell him it was a bad ruling and to go for it.

I didn't have the compendium with me at the time, just PHB so no errataed entry on teleport. And I think his teleporting is a monk ability where he teleports someone with him.
It's probably Divine Sun, the encounter attack for Radiant Fist.

Katana_Geldar
2011-02-13, 06:03 PM
It was only a minor encounter, so it wasn't really pivotal...

CarpeGuitarrem
2011-02-13, 06:07 PM
This topic makes me think of Nightcrawler; he does this sort of thing all the time.

randomhero00
2011-02-13, 06:15 PM
In general, teleporting up makes sense to me. All the fictional characters (like night crawler) that I can think of have been able to teleport up.

Analysis
2011-02-13, 06:39 PM
There are some Naruto moves that looks a little like this, though it is unclear whether they teleport or just jump around while invisible. Kick someone high up in the air, appear over them, then punch them repeatedly as they fall to the ground, upon which you might land on them for increased effect...

Oracle_Hunter
2011-02-13, 06:52 PM
Well, the confusing part is that these rules are not in any of the PHB/DMG books. They're only found online, or recently in the RulCom.
According to the Compendium, these Teleportation rules are found in PHB3 - like the "updated" Stealth rules first appeared in PHB2. You can probably find this in the compiled Errata which is available for free online. (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/Article.aspx?x=dnd/updates)

Also: I wouldn't call vertical teleportation "clever" any more than the idea of pushing someone off a cliff. The nice trade-off for this rule is that you can either have an excellent battlefield control move or risk negating this move in exchange for a mild damage boost (remember that 2 squares = +1d10 damage).

WitchSlayer
2011-02-13, 06:52 PM
Doesn't it usually say you have to teleport onto solid ground?

MeeposFire
2011-02-13, 06:53 PM
Doesn't it usually say you have to teleport onto solid ground?

No though a few powers say that. Those powers would not allow vertical teleports for damage.

Jaidu
2011-02-14, 12:47 PM
Also: I wouldn't call vertical teleportation "clever" any more than the idea of pushing someone off a cliff. The nice trade-off for this rule is that you can either have an excellent battlefield control move or risk negating this move in exchange for a mild damage boost (remember that 2 squares = +1d10 damage).

It also knocks the target prone. If you teleport a melee enemy three squares away on the ground, then it uses its move action to move up, and its standard to attack. If you teleport the same enemy two squares away and three squares up, it has a 55% chance of failing, but if it succeeds, the enemy needs to use its move to stand and is too close to charge, and gets a little damage to boot. I'm not saying it's always preferable to teleport up, but that sometimes it is worth the chance for reasons beyond "a mild damage boost."

Dekkah
2011-02-14, 02:12 PM
An other point to check (for the DM) : if the monster is trained in acrobatic, he could negate that damage boost (and stay on his feets) by rolling a acrobatic check (reduce damage by roll/2).

Gillric
2011-03-12, 10:31 AM
The main deference between 4e and some of the previous systems is the square radius (circles are now square, lol). This means that to teleport a target up, you don't have to give up any of the lateral movement as teleport with a range of 5 can be 5 up as well as wherever else you wish to move the target along the ground. It gives you the damage boost without sacrificing the control elements. That and forced movement couple with either extra damage or prone is better than just forced movement.

Swooper
2011-03-12, 12:49 PM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff58/Swooper86/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

Fuzzie Fuzz
2011-03-12, 05:35 PM
You could also rule teleporting others as forced movement, which would mean that a character could teleport themselves vertically, but couldn't teleport another character vertically.

Mando Knight
2011-03-12, 05:58 PM
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff58/Swooper86/Thread_Necromancy.jpg

Not quite. It's only been 4 weeks. Thread Necro is at 6.:smallwink:

MeeposFire
2011-03-12, 06:37 PM
Yea this is more like thread revive.