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View Full Version : Hold on - how far CAN a Monk fall?



Cogidubnus
2011-02-14, 02:31 PM
All the Slow Fall ability says is it improves with level. But by how much before 20th? 20ft a level? 5ft a level?

Kylarra
2011-02-14, 02:33 PM
While text does "trump" table, when the two aren't in conflict, the table is a valid resource, and thus you have +10' every 2 levels until 20.

Chess435
2011-02-14, 02:34 PM
20 feet at 4th
30 at 6th
40 at 8th
50 at 10th
60 at 12th
70 at 14th
80 at 16th
90 at 18th
unlimited at 20th


Hope that helps! :smallwink:

mootoall
2011-02-14, 02:36 PM
He can fall infinitely with a Ring of Feather Fall!

Cogidubnus
2011-02-14, 02:37 PM
While text does "trump" table, when the two aren't in conflict, the table is a valid resource, and thus you have +10' every 2 levels until 20.

See, I hadn't noticed it in the table (it's not so very obvious) so I was looking around all confused.

Flickerdart
2011-02-14, 02:57 PM
Not as far as a Paladin.

Keld Denar
2011-02-14, 03:01 PM
Monks fall, everyone dies.

Person_Man
2011-02-14, 03:11 PM
Also, don't forget that in order for a Monk's Slow Fall ability to function, he needs to be "within armís reach of a wall." So at 20th level it's still weaker then a first level spell.

Croverus
2011-02-14, 03:15 PM
My favourite thing to make monks feel special is to run games that are low magic or magic free. That's when you realize that monks are somethign special. Yes, you can do almost anything a monk can using magic and do it better, but you still need the fact that you use magic. Feather fall spell won't work in an Anti-Magic zone, as a wizard in one party found out the hard way. The monk's abilities cannot be disabled like magic can. You want that level 1 spell that can be removed with an equally common form of antimagic? Fine, I'll stick witht he ability I can rely on EVERY time I use it.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-14, 03:19 PM
unlimited at 20th

There's a D&D'esque story (like OOTS but text-only) wherein a monk falls from orbit and takes zero damage because she ends up next to a wall. :smallbiggrin:

Psyren
2011-02-14, 03:22 PM
My favourite thing to make monks feel special is to run games that are low magic or magic free. That's when you realize that monks are somethign special. Yes, you can do almost anything a monk can using magic and do it better, but you still need the fact that you use magic. Feather fall spell won't work in an Anti-Magic zone, as a wizard in one party found out the hard way. The monk's abilities cannot be disabled like magic can. You want that level 1 spell that can be removed with an equally common form of antimagic? Fine, I'll stick witht he ability I can rely on EVERY time I use it.

So monks become special if you force everyone else to be useless. Good to know.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-14, 03:42 PM
So monks become special if you force everyone else to be useless. Good to know.

No... just spellcasters.

Barbarian, Rogues, ToB characters, etc., even Fighters all remain useful in a low/no magic setting.

Talya
2011-02-14, 03:43 PM
So monks become special if you force everyone else to be useless. Good to know.

And that monk still gets his ass kicked in a fistfight with a fighter.

Flickerdart
2011-02-14, 03:48 PM
My favourite thing to make monks feel special is to run games that are low magic or magic free. That's when you realize that monks are somethign special. Yes, you can do almost anything a monk can using magic and do it better, but you still need the fact that you use magic. Feather fall spell won't work in an Anti-Magic zone, as a wizard in one party found out the hard way. The monk's abilities cannot be disabled like magic can. You want that level 1 spell that can be removed with an equally common form of antimagic? Fine, I'll stick witht he ability I can rely on EVERY time I use it.
The monk's abilities can be disabled by snapping its fragile little neck. The monk doesn't suck because there are wizards. The monk sucks because against any CR-appropriate encounter it can't contribute, and taking away resources won't change that.

Cogidubnus
2011-02-14, 03:49 PM
I only wanted to know cos I removed the wall stipulation for my Monk fix (cos yeah, permanent Feather Fall isn't exactly overpowered) and I needed to know how it went up.

Though I have made all the Monk's abilities extraordinary, partly because they're not based off any outside supernatural or magical force, but also because I'm building a prestige class which focuses on reinforcing universal law with its presence, damping magic, and their capstone is the ability to create an AM field, so I wanted Monks going into that to be able to use all their abilities to hunt spellcasters while doing that. So don't try flying to escape this guy - he'll follow you, grapple you, and AM field you. You'll fall and fall and fall and he'll hit the ground just fine by slowing 15ft above your corpse.

Greenish
2011-02-14, 03:49 PM
My favourite thing to make monks feel special is to run games that are low magic or magic free.So you ban monks? I mean, they do come jam-packed with magical abilities.

Rin_Hunter
2011-02-14, 03:52 PM
Not as far as a Paladin.

You, sir, have made my day.

Flickerdart
2011-02-14, 03:57 PM
I only wanted to know cos I removed the wall stipulation for my Monk fix (cos yeah, permanent Feather Fall isn't exactly overpowered) and I needed to know how it went up.

Though I have made all the Monk's abilities extraordinary, partly because they're not based off any outside supernatural or magical force, but also because I'm building a prestige class which focuses on reinforcing universal law with its presence, damping magic, and their capstone is the ability to create an AM field, so I wanted Monks going into that to be able to use all their abilities to hunt spellcasters while doing that. So don't try flying to escape this guy - he'll follow you, grapple you, and AM field you. You'll fall and fall and fall and he'll hit the ground just fine by slowing 15ft above your corpse.
By 20th level, anyone who's everyone travels on phantom steeds or zombie dragons with speeds far greater than the standard Monk gets. So if you're planning to match speed, you're going to need to zip around at 240ft while evading a hail of Orbs.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-14, 03:57 PM
So you ban monks? I mean, they do come jam-packed with magical abilities.

No, he makes them a special snowflake by making them only magical character as far as I can tell but I could be wrong. Which would work.
Same as let only PC be a wizard would make magic awe inspiring as it can do things no one else can.

subject42
2011-02-14, 04:01 PM
There's a D&D'esque story (like OOTS but text-only) wherein a monk falls from orbit and takes zero damage because she ends up next to a wall. :smallbiggrin:

Does the fall need to start next to a wall, end, next to a wall, or always be next to a wall? Depending on how you do it, 20th level monks (being outsiders) would make for good orbital messenger services.

Flickerdart
2011-02-14, 04:05 PM
By the wording of the ability, the Monk needs to have the wall constantly within arm's reach. The trick here is to carry around a Wall of Iron inside a Bag of Holding.

Doc Roc
2011-02-14, 04:06 PM
No... just spellcasters.

Barbarian, Rogues, ToB characters, etc., even Fighters all remain useful in a low/no magic setting.

This is a common view point, but you must remember that a lot of monsters have very deadly (ex) abilities, ones you need magical items to deal with. I would be very careful, as a GM, if I went in this direction. I am, in this case, speaking from experience. I nearly TPK'd a party by accident in what we refer to as the Antimagic Shield Incident.

Psyren
2011-02-14, 04:20 PM
No... just spellcasters.

Barbarian, Rogues, ToB characters, etc., even Fighters all remain useful in a low/no magic setting.

1) ToB is designed to be effective even in high-magic. That's one of the requirements of T3 - you have to be able to keep up with the big dogs even if you can't outshine them.

2) As Doc pointed out, you need to define what you consider "low magic." It's possible to make, say, a low-magic Dragon encounter (the game being called "Dungeons & Dragons" and all that) which will summarily mop the floor with your monk and fighter once they have no way to fend off the massive creature's claws, grapples, bites and breath. The rogue will also have no way to hide from its keen senses. The Barbarian can potentially do enough damage to drop it so long as he isn't grappled either.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-14, 04:22 PM
1) ToB is designed to be effective even in high-magic. That's one of the requirements of T3 - you have to be able to keep up with the big dogs even if you can't outshine them.

2) As Doc pointed out, you need to define what you consider "low magic." It's possible to make, say, a low-magic Dragon encounter (the game being called "Dungeons & Dragons" and all that) which will summarily mop the floor with your monk and fighter once they have no way to fend off the massive creature's claws, grapples, bites and breath. The rogue will also have no way to hide from its keen senses. The Barbarian can potentially do enough damage to drop it so long as he isn't grappled either.

How about a dragon in an antimagic field so you can at least hurt it (they lose DR)? Doesn't help monk, but Barbarians still rock.

Psyren
2011-02-14, 04:43 PM
How about a dragon in an antimagic field so you can at least hurt it (they lose DR)? Doesn't help monk, but Barbarians still rock.

Do you have a source for that ruling that DR/magic is automatically supernatural/able to be suppressed by AMF? The True Dragon entry does not support this, not does the DR ability page itself.

linebackeru
2011-02-14, 05:09 PM
Do you have a source for that ruling that DR/magic is automatically supernatural/able to be suppressed by AMF? The True Dragon entry does not support this, not does the DR ability page itself.

Common sense doesn't support it either. I thought their scales were just really hard?

Isn't it ironic that the counterargument about Feather Falls is: "If you use moderate-level magic, to which the Monk doesn't have access, to negate a wizard, the Monk is better than magic"?

Dr. Steve
2011-02-14, 05:09 PM
Monks can kick plenty of butt, they just need to set it up right. Sneak up on a monster and FoB to the back of the head!

Cog
2011-02-14, 05:09 PM
He can fall infinitely with a Ring of Feather Fall!
He can fall infinitely, but that might not be such a great idea.

Faint transmutation; CL 1st; Forge Ring, feather fall; Price 2,200 gp.

Duration: Until landing or 1 round/level
An off-the-shelf ring will save you from 65 feet of falling.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-14, 05:14 PM
He can fall infinitely, but that might not be such a great idea.


An off-the-shelf ring will save you from 65 feet of falling.

Strictly, the off-the-shelf ring will save you from any amount of falling.
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/rings.htm#featherFalling[/quote]


This ring is crafted with a feather pattern all around its edge. It acts exactly like a feather fall spell, activated immediately if the wearer falls more than 5 feet.

It activates automatically, so it'll be continually refreshing itself every 5ft. of falling distance with no wearer input required.

Eldan
2011-02-14, 05:16 PM
He can fall infinitely, but that might not be such a great idea.


An off-the-shelf ring will save you from 65 feet of falling.

At which point, if you are still falling, the ring activates again.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-14, 05:17 PM
It activates automatically, so it'll be continually refreshing itself every 5ft. of falling distance with no wearer input required.

Wouldn't that mean you fall 5 feet, then float 65 feet, then fall 5 feet again, then float 65 more feet, then fall again? It's almost like a roller coaster...

Eldariel
2011-02-14, 05:20 PM
Do you have a source for that ruling that DR/magic is automatically supernatural/able to be suppressed by AMF? The True Dragon entry does not support this, not does the DR ability page itself.

Yeah, the types of each type of DR are listed somewhere. Rules Compendium was the easiest source at hands; they go as follows:
- DR/Cold Iron and DR/Silver are Supernatural
- DR/Adamantine is Extraordinary
- DR/Magic is Supernatural
- DR/Epic is Supernatural
- DR/- is Extraordinary
- DR/Alignment is Supernatural
- DR/Damage Type is Extraordinary

That said, I don't see how DR would be a problem; you can drop Big T to 0 with mundane weapons quite easily.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-14, 05:21 PM
How far can a monk fall?

Not very far, it's already a joke, and outclassed by atleast 1 npc class.

Starbuck_II
2011-02-14, 05:26 PM
Do you have a source for that ruling that DR/magic is automatically supernatural/able to be suppressed by AMF? The True Dragon entry does not support this, not does the DR ability page itself.

Well, I'm pretty sure Dr/magic isn't extraordinary. But it isn't lableded in the SRD I see.

I guess it was more common sense that /magic was magic.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-14, 06:27 PM
Wouldn't that mean you fall 5 feet, then float 65 feet, then fall 5 feet again, then float 65 more feet, then fall again? It's almost like a roller coaster...

More like slowly falling down stairs, I think.

Endarire
2011-02-14, 06:29 PM
If unobstructed, a Monk could slow fall down a wall infinitely large, like The Lady's Tower in Sigil or some planes.

Which reminds me of Portal.

Cog
2011-02-14, 06:45 PM
It activates automatically, so it'll be continually refreshing itself every 5ft. of falling distance with no wearer input required.
Hm. I can see that reading, but I'm not convinced it's necessarily so. That requires 1) for the ring to be activated more than once by the same event (the second five feet of falling is part of the same event as the first five; Feather Fall doesn't stop you from falling, it just adjusts the speed at which you do), and 2) for the ring to be active multiple times simultaneously. I would think an item is either active or it's not - otherwise you could just activate your basic flaming sword a hundred times to add 100d6 fire damage to every hit.

The Glyphstone
2011-02-14, 06:49 PM
Hm. I can see that reading, but I'm not convinced it's necessarily so. That requires 1) for the ring to be activated more than once by the same event (the second five feet of falling is part of the same event as the first five; Feather Fall doesn't stop you from falling, it just adjusts the speed at which you do), and 2) for the ring to be active multiple times simultaneously. I would think an item is either active or it's not - otherwise you could just activate your basic flaming sword a hundred times to add 100d6 fire damage to every hit.

Items define their activation requirements. As described, the Feather Fall Ring is what the item creation guidelines call 'use-activated', it automatically triggers when its condition (falling 5 feet) is met. Some items (such as stat boosters) are continually active, others, like flaming swords, are Command Word activated - they take a standard action to turn on, and remain on until you take another standard action to turn off. In this case, the ring isn't active multiple times simultaneously, it's just continually recasting the spell (which has its own rules for overlap) every time it meets its conditions.

JaronK
2011-02-14, 07:07 PM
I hate it when people say that Monks "can't" contribute to appropriate CR encounters. While some monsters are horribly underconned, in general Monks can absolutely handle such encounters if built with some optimization. Yes, they're low powered, and some multiclassing/PrCing is in order, but they're not completely worthless. Dragonborn Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9 with Vow of Poverty (hardly insane optimization there, but you needed the racial flight if you do this) is useful enough, for example.

But Slow Fall is certainly a joke. Feather Fall just does it better.

JaronK

Cog
2011-02-14, 07:11 PM
Items define their activation requirements. As described, the Feather Fall Ring is what the item creation guidelines call 'use-activated', it automatically triggers when its condition (falling 5 feet) is met.
Yep. The condition is "falls more than five feet." During any given fall, you pass the five foot mark once, and trigger the ring upon doing so. You only fall a single time; no matter how many times the ring activates, or how many friendly spellcasters drop additional Feather Fall spells on you, it's still a single fall.

Some items (such as stat boosters) are continually active, others, like flaming swords, are Command Word activated - they take a standard action to turn on, and remain on until you take another standard action to turn off. In this case, the ring isn't active multiple times simultaneously, it's just continually recasting the spell (which has its own rules for overlap) every time it meets its conditions.
It doesn't cast anything; "[The ring] acts exactly like a feather fall spell." The ring itself provides an effect that follows the effects in the description of the spell. The "recasting a spell" rules would come into play if you had two rings on, in which case:

One Effect Makes Another Irrelevant: Sometimes, one spell can render a later spell irrelevant. Both spells are still active, but one has rendered the other useless in some fashion.

Saintheart
2011-02-15, 07:27 AM
If unobstructed, a Monk could slow fall down a wall infinitely large, like The Lady's Tower in Sigil or some planes.

Which reminds me of Portal.

I was actually thinking of the notional Space Elevator, myself. :smallsmile:

Curmudgeon
2011-02-15, 08:53 AM
My favourite thing to make monks feel special is to run games that are low magic or magic free. That's when you realize that monks are somethign special. Yes, you can do almost anything a monk can using magic and do it better, but you still need the fact that you use magic. Feather fall spell won't work in an Anti-Magic zone, as a wizard in one party found out the hard way. The monk's abilities cannot be disabled like magic can.
Actually, a lot of them would automatically be disabled.

Ki Strike (Su)
Wholeness of Body (Su)
Diamond Body (Su)
Abundant Step (Su)
Quivering Palm (Su)
Empty Body (Su)
All of these things fail to work wherever magic fails.

candycorn
2011-02-15, 09:11 AM
And in a low magic setting, I can't see a nonmagic class of having a prayer against a dragon. At least, not a well-built one.

Darth Stabber
2011-02-15, 10:39 AM
I hate it when people say that Monks "can't" contribute to appropriate CR encounters. While some monsters are horribly underconned, in general Monks can absolutely handle such encounters if built with some optimization. Yes, they're low powered, and some multiclassing/PrCing is in order, but they're not completely worthless. Dragonborn Monk 6/Shou Disciple 5/Kensai 9 with Vow of Poverty (hardly insane optimization there, but you needed the racial flight if you do this) is useful enough, for example.

But Slow Fall is certainly a joke. Feather Fall just does it better.

JaronK

Thats very much like saying that a Warrior can contribute to an appropriate cr encounter. It's technically true, since it can qualify for prcs almost as well as a fighter, but then you are relying on the PRC class feature (or VoP) to provide the power and then ascribing that to the base class. If I go Warrior 1/Bardx/Ur Priest2/Mystic TheurgeZ, Doest that mean warrior is good? Does that mean that bard is awsome? No. Does that mean the Mystic Teurge is awsome? No. It means Ur Priest is just that darn good.

1 + 1,000,000 = 1,000,001, and 1,000,001 is a big number. Does that mean that one is a big number?

Elric VIII
2011-02-15, 11:06 AM
Thats very much like saying that a Warrior can contribute to an appropriate cr encounter. It's technically true, since it can qualify for prcs almost as well as a fighter, but then you are relying on the PRC class feature (or VoP) to provide the power and then ascribing that to the base class. If I go Warrior 1/Bardx/Ur Priest2/Mystic TheurgeZ, Doest that mean warrior is good? Does that mean that bard is awsome? No. Does that mean the Mystic Teurge is awsome? No. It means Ur Priest is just that darn good.

1 + 1,000,000 = 1,000,001, and 1,000,001 is a big number. Does that mean that one is a big number?

Bard can be pretty well optimized with Words of Creation, Dragonfire Inspiration, et al. It's better than a Monk as well.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-15, 11:09 AM
There's a D&D'esque story (like OOTS but text-only) wherein a monk falls from orbit and takes zero damage because she ends up next to a wall. :smallbiggrin:

Sadly, wouldn't work. It only reduces the effective distance of the fall. So, from orbit would still result in max damage.

Not to mention the problems of actually falling from orbit. Being in vaccum is bad. See Elder Evils, atropus encounter for rules. Additionally, I know 2nd ed had rules for freefall from orbit(see spelljammer). I don't know if they were ever updated, but unless you were immune to fire damage, it was a terrible idea.

AtomicKitKat
2011-02-15, 09:44 PM
The Monk leaps off the wall in an arc when he reaches the end of his slow fall distance, then somehow manages to curve back(don't ask how!) to the wall so that he can start the slow fall counter from 0.:smallbiggrin:

JaronK
2011-02-15, 10:00 PM
Thats very much like saying that a Warrior can contribute to an appropriate cr encounter. It's technically true, since it can qualify for prcs almost as well as a fighter, but then you are relying on the PRC class feature (or VoP) to provide the power and then ascribing that to the base class. If I go Warrior 1/Bardx/Ur Priest2/Mystic TheurgeZ, Doest that mean warrior is good? Does that mean that bard is awsome? No. Does that mean the Mystic Teurge is awsome? No. It means Ur Priest is just that darn good.

1 + 1,000,000 = 1,000,001, and 1,000,001 is a big number. Does that mean that one is a big number?

Except that even a Commoner can contribute to even CR encounters. Consider a Dragonborn Orc Commoner 15 with a flaw (Chicken Infested!), Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Mounted Combat, Ride By Attack, Headlong Rush, Spirited Charge, and Shock Trooper, with Riding Boots and a Valorous Skillful Lance along with a decent mount (preferably flying, and awakened via a purchased spell). He wears a Blindfold of True Darkness and lets his mount chose his targets. Assuming a +5 Bonus (Tooth of Leraje) and a strength of 30 (hardly impossible starting at Orc) to go with his BAB of 11 (thanks, Skillful) on the charge he's doing 15 damage from strength, 1d10 from the lance, 5 from the enhancement, and 22 from power attack... all multiplied by 7 (Valorous + Lance + Spirited Charge + Riding Boots + Diving Attack + Headling Rush) to 7d10+259 damage per hit.

Does this mean Commoners are awesome? Of course not. But it does mean a Commoner CAN contribute to even CR encounters just fine. And if a Commoner can, so can a Monk.

JaronK