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Master_Rahl22
2011-02-17, 08:46 PM
So we're starting at level 5 with no limits on sources, and we start with two magic items of Level 1-5 and 2,500 gold to buy other stuff

Here's what I've got so far, I'm looking for advice on current choices as well as later in the build on into paragon. I'm set on Fighter heading into Polearm Master PP, but race and everything else is negotiable. I went with Elf due to the boosts to Dex and Wis, and the ability to shift in difficult terrain seems pretty big when my main trick is shifting with Footwork Lure to prone enemies. I'd love to have a higher strength if it can be managed, but I wasn't sure how to get the necessary stats for Polearm Momentum, and I really want to have that feat at least at 4. Thanks in advance

, Elf Fighter
Init +4 HP 53/53 Bloodied 26 Healing Surge 13 (0 used /11)
AC 19 Fort 17 Reflex 14 Will 15 Speed 7
Str 17 (+3) Con 14 (+2) Dex 15 (+2) Int 8 (-1) Wis 17 (+3) Cha 10 (0)
Footwork Lure
Cleave
Pass Forward
Elven Accuracy

nightwyrm
2011-02-17, 08:52 PM
You might wanna switch to dragonborn to grab draconic arrogance in paragon.

cupkeyk
2011-02-17, 08:55 PM
In the a fighter's handbook, there is a section for the polearm fighter. I am playing it right now at level 14. started at one. Very solid.

I reposted it for you:

The Vacuum

This build looks to control his enemies' position in order to allow his allies to operate efficiently. To that end, it employs a Polearm to knock enemies down and yank them adjacent to you, which gives them a choice between engaging you or doing nothing. Either way, your party wins.

Race: Longtooth Shifter.
Combat Feature: Combat Superiority.
Fighter Talent: Fighter Weapon Talent (Two-Handed Weapons).
Multiclass: None.
Paragon Path: Polearm Master.
Epic Destiny: Ceaseless Guardian.

Ability Scores:
L1 Str 18, Con 13, Dex 14, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10
L4 Str 19, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 16, Cha 10
L8 Str 20, Con 13, Dex 15, Int 8, Wis 17, Cha 10
L11 Str 21, Con 14, Dex 16, Int 9, Wis 18, Cha 11
L14 Str 22, Con 14, Dex 17, Int 9, Wis 19, Cha 11
L18 Str 23, Con 14, Dex 17, Int 9, Wis 19, Cha 11
L21 Str 26, Con 15, Dex 18, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 12
L24 Str 27, Con 15, Dex 19, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 12
L28 Str 28, Con 15, Dex 20, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 12

Feats:
L1 Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)
L2 Mobile Challenge
L4 Swift Spear
L6 Polearm Momentum
L8 Hafted Defense
L10 Spear Expertise
L11 Polearm Gamble
L12 Impaling Spear
L14 Weapon Focus (Spears)
L16 Improved Initiative
L18 Improved Defenses
L20 Marked Scourge
L21 Rapid Combat Challenge
L21 Superior Initiative (replaces Improved Initiative)
L22 Martial Mastery
L22 Mobile Warrior (replaces Mobile Challenge)
L24 Spear Mastery
L26 Epic Reflexes
L28 Epic Will
L30 Reckless Attacker

At-Will Powers:
L1 Cleave
L1 Footwork Lure

Encounter Powers:
L1 Hack and Hew
L3 Rain of Blows
L7 Come and Get It
L11 Leveraging Strike
L13 Scattering Swing (replaces Hack and Hew)
L23 Warrior's Urging (replaces Come and Get It)

Daily Powers:
L1 Tempest Dance
L5 Rain of Steel
L9 Shift the Battlefield
L15 Unyielding Avalanche (replaces Rain of Steel)
L19 Strike of the Watchful Guard (replaces Tempest Dance)
L20 Polearm Sweep
L25 Marking Barrage (replaces Shift the Battlefield)
L29 Force the Battle (replaces Strike of the Watchful Guard)

Utility Powers:
L2 Pass Forward
L6 Daring Shot
L10 Fighter's Grit
L10 Mighty Surge
L12 Reaching Stance
L22 Martial Supremacy
L26 Always Ready

Skills:
L1 Athletics
L1 Endurance
L1 Heal

Magic Items (Expected GP = 14,625,000):
L29 (2,625,000 gp): +6 Feyslaughter Greatspear (AV)
L29 (2,625,000 gp): Ring of Free Time (AV)
L28 (2,125,000 gp): +6 Steadfast Amulet
L27 (1,625,000 gp): +6 Hungry Spear Greatspear (AV 2)
L27 (1,625,000 gp): +6 Dwarven Elderscale Armor (PHB)
L27 (1,625,000 gp): Shadow Band (AV)
L26 (1,125,000 gp): Iron Armbands of Power (Epic Tier) (AV)
L23 (425,000 gp): Eye of Awareness (AV)
L20 (125,000 gp): Diamond Cincture (Paragon Tier) (AV 2)
L10 (5,000 gp): Strikebacks (AV)
L9 (4,200 gp): Backlash Tattoo (AV)
L9 (4,200 gp): Battle Standard of the Hungry Blade (D 381)
L7 (2,600 gp): Rushing Cleats (AV)
TOTAL: 13,941,000 gp

I opted out of many of the defensive feats in favor of a paladin MC feat and a skill power feat.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-17, 10:34 PM
@Cupkeyk: I read all of Lordduskblade's Fighter Handbook (http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/24861409/Harder_than_a_Rock:_The_Fighters_Handbook) and I didn't see any sample builds. Are you referring to a different handbook?

@Nightwyrm: I've played a Dragonborn Fighter before and it was fun to be able to mark in a 3x3 area once per encounter, and now there are a whole bunch of awesome breath feats that I would want. This build seems fairly feat starved already, and I'd be very tempted to focus on breath feats. As good as Draconic Arrogance is, I think I may pass.

Any other race suggestions over Elf and Longtooth Shifter? Thri-kreen and Minotaur could both boost Str plus a secondary. I do really like Wild Step, but I'm thinking a boost to Str is probably more important. Top considerations for race are now Str and Dex or Wis. I started with Human but I felt I really needed the stat boosts at level 1 to get the feats I want by level 5.

Ertwin
2011-02-17, 10:38 PM
Half orc has Str and Dex bonuses. I'm currently playing a half-orc fighter.

Mando Knight
2011-02-17, 10:50 PM
Eladrin has only one stat that Fighters like (Dex), but they have the awesome feat Eladrin Soldier, which gives them essentially Paragon-level Weapon Focus (Spear, Longsword) and proficiency in every Spear in the game. This includes the best reach weapon (not including support feats) in the game: the Greatspear (a +3 proficiency Longspear). It also includes the Tratnyr, a d8 javelin.

cupkeyk
2011-02-17, 11:04 PM
The one I am referring to is Harder than a Rock.

The sample build, The Vacuum, is in my post under the spoiler.

The area mark is not as important with powers like Kirre's Roar and Daring Shout (mispelled as Daring Shot, you don't actually shoot anything).

The Hungry Spear enhancement lets you throw your Greatspear. Feyslaughter is ideally the only enhancement you want paragon onwards.

Minotaur is good for the interrupt against death. Longtooth shifter is good for the surge economy (after an encounter, do not rest until you are at half because of regeneration, so you only spend two surges after every encounter vis-a-vis other races).

Mando Knight
2011-02-17, 11:34 PM
Longtooth shifter is good for the surge economy (after an encounter, do not rest until you are at half because of regeneration, so you only spend two surges after every encounter vis-a-vis other races).
This requires DM approval, though. Technically, it ends at the end of the encounter, which is subject to the DM's definition of how long that is.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-18, 12:00 AM
Doh, didn't realize Harder Than a Rock continued on page 2. :smallredface:

Ok, so I think I'm rolling with either Minotaur or Longtooth Shifter. Right now my feats look like this:
1 Weapon Proficiency (Greatspear)
2 Swift Spear or Mobile Challenge
4 Polearm Momentum

Future feats include Spear Expertise, Deadly Draw, Hafted Defense, Polearm Gamble. Thoughts on which of Swift Spear or Mobile Challenge I should get at 2 and which I should get at 6? SS makes OAs stickier, and MC makes Combat Challenge stickier, so I'm torn on which to get first.

Where can I find the Hungry Spear enhancement, and is it available as a level 1-5 item? Also, any other item recommendations that meet the criteria in the OP? (2 items 1-5, 2500gp)

cupkeyk
2011-02-18, 12:18 AM
Swift spear or its cousin Forceful opportunist only becomes absolutely necessary to your build when you get Polearm gamble. So Mobile challenge first, since that will shut down a lot of attemts against your role.

As for longtooth shifting, i rationalized it that i am raging... angry angry after the combat...

Mando Knight
2011-02-18, 12:26 AM
Where can I find the Hungry Spear enhancement, and is it available as a level 1-5 item?
Adventurer's Vault 2, page 98. Level 2+.

Its encounter power is decent, but I'd grab at least an unenchanted longsword or something if you want to use it.

cupkeyk
2011-02-18, 12:28 AM
Hungry Spear is part of a set, so it is not listed with the rest of the weapons.

Also, its not in the build but at paragon, try to put in Pinning Challenge. Your opponents will be useless if they take the Polearm Gamble gamble, but this will need Forceful Opportunist instead of Swift spear, and Kirre's Roar.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-18, 04:56 AM
As Mando already pointed out, keeping your Shifting up from one encounter to the next is not actually allowed. That applies to every power that lasts "until end of the encounter".


Ok, so I think I'm rolling with either Minotaur or Longtooth Shifter.
Minotaurs make great fighters, but their racial power is redundant with spear proning. I would recommend Elf, actually: shifting over difficult terrain, and higher speed, and Elven Acc is one of the best racial abilities ever.


Right now my feats look like this:
It depends highly on your DM whether OAs or CC attacks come up a lot. In my experience, CC is done much more often than an OA, so the CC-boosting feat is better.

Blindfighting Warrior is also good, as is a multiclass feat of your choice. I don't think either Hafted Defense or a Greatspear is something you should spend a feat on, simply because there are better feats. Especially HD really isn't worth it.

You don't need Deadly Draw since the point of the build is to drop people prone (and a square away from you so they can't charge), so you'll already have CA anyway. And if you don't, flank. CA doesn't stack with itself, so most feats that give conditional CA aren't that great.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-18, 08:15 AM
Minotaurs make great fighters, but their racial power is redundant with spear proning. I would recommend Elf, actually: shifting over difficult terrain, and higher speed, and Elven Acc is one of the best racial abilities ever.

See that was one of my original thoughts, but I couldn't get my CON high enough if I buy an 18 STR, and I don't really want to settle for lower STR. Here's the best array I could come up with for Elf:
STR 18 CON 12 DEX 14 (+1 at lvl4) INT 8 WIS 14 (+1 at lvl4) CHA 10


It depends highly on your DM whether OAs or CC attacks come up a lot. In my experience, CC is done much more often than an OA, so the CC-boosting feat is better.

Blindfighting Warrior is also good, as is a multiclass feat of your choice. I don't think either Hafted Defense or a Greatspear is something you should spend a feat on, simply because there are better feats. Especially HD really isn't worth it.

You don't need Deadly Draw since the point of the build is to drop people prone (and a square away from you so they can't charge), so you'll already have CA anyway. And if you don't, flank. CA doesn't stack with itself, so most feats that give conditional CA aren't that great.

Good point on Deadly Draw, I had been thinking about sliding and pulling and forgot the proning part. So, if I were to go with Elf instead of Minotaur and drop the Greatspear proficiency, should I throw in Elven Precision, or maybe grab both Swift Spear and Mobile Challenge? Ugh this is why I prefer making Paragon characters cause I don't have to decide which feats come now and which come later. :smallsmile:

Kurald Galain
2011-02-18, 08:27 AM
See that was one of my original thoughts, but I couldn't get my CON high enough if I buy an 18 STR,
That's a good point. There are some backgrounds that base your hit points on another stat, if you want, but surges are rather important for a defender.


I throw in Elven Precision, or maybe grab both Swift Spear and Mobile Challenge?
Definitely the latter. EP only helps you once every ten combats; it's really not a very good feat. MP has a better feat, that lets you retain Elven Acc on a miss.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-18, 11:29 AM
Hmm, fiddled around with the PB some more and I'm much happier with this:
STR 17 (+1 at 4) CON 14 DEX 15 INT 8 WIS 14 (+1 at 4) CHA 10

So Wild Step and Elven Accuracy combined with flavor reasons mean I'm going to stay with Elf. Kurald, I found Opportunistic Accuracy in MP, but you can only keep it if you reroll an OA and miss, seems pretty situational. I may get Spear Expertise first and grab that once I get a feel for how many OAs I'll get to make. If I recall correctly, standing up from prone doesn't provoke an OA like it did in 3.5, but with Mobile Challenge more things will need to just try to move away from me since they won't be able to shift then charge.

Any suggestions for items other than Hungry Spear?

... I was just going through errata and realized Footwork Lure can only slide an enemy one square now. So is Polearm Momentum useless until I get some Rushing Cleats? Hmm, I could switch to a Glaive so I could have a Staggering weapon so Footwork Lure prone still works. As cool as Hungry Spear was I think I'll go with a Glaive unless somebody comes up with a better idea until I can get Rushing Cleats.

DragonBaneDM
2011-02-18, 03:47 PM
MAN I love spear builds! Lemmee see if I can help out item wise!

Well, if you want that extra square of push before Paragon Tier, there's Controlling Weapon, but Hungry seems really good.

Rushing Cleats also do the same thing.
^Monked...^


I've seen Wrestler's Gloves work well with this build. Also, I'm a big fan of Periapt of Cascading Health and Armor of Sudden Recovery.

However, I believe the latter is for light armor, so you may wanna go for something heavier.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-18, 04:37 PM
I settled on Staggering Glaive, Screaming Scale Armor, and a Cloak of Distortion as my magic items. I'm going with Heavy Blade Expertise, Mobile Challenge, and Polearm Momentum as my feats. I'll miss the prone on OA from Swift Spear, but when I hit Paragon I can grab Heavy Blade Opportunity and still get it by using Footwork Lure. Thanks for the help everybody.

nightwyrm
2011-02-18, 05:32 PM
There's also a feat that lets you push with cleave when using a polearm, so it may be worth looking into if you're going for HBO.

cupkeyk
2011-02-18, 07:26 PM
As Mando already pointed out, keeping your Shifting up from one encounter to the next is not actually allowed. That applies to every power that lasts "until end of the encounter".

Is this noted anywhere? As far as I know you may keep up until the end of the encounter indefinitely until you take your short rest after the encounter. Pacing around your fallen opponents and looting their bodies will probably take the ten to twenty minutes to bring you up to past bloodied.

Mando Knight
2011-02-18, 08:14 PM
As far as I know you may keep up until the end of the encounter indefinitely until you take your short rest after the encounter.
No. That's just silly. The encounter always definitively ends by five minutes.

Until the End of the Encounter: The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.
Additionally, if you're taking 5 minutes of non-strenuous activity, that's a short rest. Looking around at the aftermath of a battle is a non-strenuous activity. Salvage might not be, and running away from anyone who'll come to investigate your encounter wouldn't be, but normal loot-divvying is non-strenuous.

On the other hand, 50 rounds should be sufficient.

cupkeyk
2011-02-18, 08:26 PM
then jog in place?

I have ADD so after doing something strenuous i have to pace around and wring my hands and stretch my neck and back and arms. Its not gonna take 50 rounds to regen the hp you lost anyway. On a RP perpective, a shifter would know that if his adrenaline rush simmers down, he won't knit back as fast, why wouldn't he jog in place and do jumping jacks?

My lvl14 shifter polearm fighter has 108hp, if I am at one hp, it will take longtooth shifting 13 rounds to bring me to past bloodied. it's a little over a minute of drills, looting, and general post skirmish logistics

Kurald Galain
2011-02-19, 06:07 AM
My lvl14 shifter polearm fighter has 108hp, if I am at one hp, it will take longtooth shifting 13 rounds to bring me to past bloodied.
Well, regenerating after a combat is a different thing from expecting your regeneration to still be active at the beginning of the next combat.

cupkeyk
2011-02-19, 07:43 AM
Well, regenerating after a combat is a different thing from expecting your regeneration to still be active at the beginning of the next combat.

Who said anything about that?

Reverent-One
2011-02-19, 08:59 AM
Well, regenerating after a combat is a different thing from expecting your regeneration to still be active at the beginning of the next combat.

Actually, it is possible for the regeneration to still be going during the next encounter. According to the PHB, a duration that lasts until the end of the encounter lasts until one of two things happen:

The effect ends when you take a rest (short or extended) or after 5 minutes.
Notice that "You enter a new encounter" isn't one of the events. So if you go from one fight to the next without resting, any encounter long buffs would still be active.

cupkeyk
2011-02-20, 04:13 PM
Assuming encounter 2 is less than five minutes from encounter two. It's actually happened to us where while my longtooth shifting was on, after killing the bad guys, the bad guy's boss joined the picture. S i didn't need to turn it back on, of course i was at half hitpoints with all my encounter powers used up. Stretching an encounter long buff at the cost of not replenishing encounter powers is a BIG trade-off.

The fact that a longtooth shifter can always heal himself up to half is why they are sky blue, asuide from the double whammy of trait bonuses.

And minotaurs can prevent themselves from dropping. They both trump the elf.

MeeposFire
2011-02-20, 06:34 PM
Elf isn't bad though. You can make a very nice polearm build using an elf.

Kurald Galain
2011-02-20, 06:50 PM
And minotaurs can prevent themselves from dropping. They both trump the elf.
That depends on what you looking for. Elves offer increased movement rate, shifting onto difficult terrain, the very useful Elven Accuracy, and much better feat support. I'd say they're tied with the minotaur, and both are better than the shifter (unless the defender running out of surges is a common occurence with your particular DM).

MeeposFire
2011-02-20, 06:57 PM
Fully complimentary stats are a bit overvalued to many people in 4e in my opinion. I have found that that even races with poor stat relationships can make very effective characters in 4e. For instance a dwarf thief is still effective even if con/wis are its stats since you can just put an 18 in dex and your character will be better at perception and be tougher to boot. Unless you are trying to win a contest in pure optimization complimentary stats are nice but not crucial for the most part.

At a class level anyway. For a sp[specific build you may need certain stats depending on how MAD your build is.

cupkeyk
2011-02-20, 07:01 PM
And elf will qualify earlier for Polearm momentum too.

But my dislike for elves is rooted in Legolas fan boys. Feat support and racial features cannot alleviate that.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-21, 08:24 AM
Rest assured, this Elf will not be a Legolas clone. The way I plan to describe his fighting style is a mix of the Aiel and Mat from the Wheel of Time books. The Aiel are incredible fighters and use only spears, and Mat has a polearm and is a general badass.

cupkeyk
2011-02-21, 05:44 PM
oooh I love wheel of time, the algai d'siswai(sic) are all female humans aren't they. I have been trying to build one but they use a one handed versatile spear and can run fast. They have a 3.5 prestige class in the WoT but it's so suboptimal. I will be totally willing to help you build one.

Mat uses a glaive, I think.

Master_Rahl22
2011-02-21, 11:36 PM
You spelled algai d'siswai correctly, but it's only the Maidens of the Spear that are all female. The vast majority of the warrior societies are all male. Yep, I know that Mat wields a glaive, but since the level 5 version of this build needs at Staggering Glaive for Polearm Momentum to work, I thought it was fitting.

I just found out today that my character wasn't accepted, but I'm definitely going to keep the sheet for applying to other games.