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Lix Lorn
2011-02-19, 10:44 PM
Paladin
ďThe light of Pelor sees your spirit. It is yet redeemable. Come, walk with me a while.Ē
Yelena, Paladin of Pelor.

The Paladin is a warrior devoted to something beyond all else; a cause, an ideal, or more often, a deity. He is infused with the divine power of his patron being or force, blessed or cursed with the might to spread his ideals. Law and chaos, good and evil, light and dark, fire and frost. All have their champions. Although their methods differ, they all have their similarities.

MAKING A PALADIN
A Paladin is a supernatural combatant with some limited magical powers.
Abilities: A Paladinís class abilities are based primarily off of either wisdom or charisma, depending on the personality of the particular Paladin. However, as a combatant, the three physical abilities are also important to them.
Races:
Alignment: Although the most common of Paladins are the heroic champions of good, they are by no means the only ones. Great villains, champions of law, scions of chaos, or even defenders of balance are equally as common.
Starting Gold: 6d4x10
Starting Age: +1d6 (For a Human)

Class Skills The Paladinís class skills (And the key ability for each skill) are Balance (Dex), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Listen (Wis), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Spot (Wis) and Spellcraft (Int).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier)
Skill Points at each Level: 4 + Int modifier

Hit Die: d10

Paladin


Level
Base Attack Bonus
Fort Save
Ref Save
Will Save
Special
1
2
3
4
5
6


1st

+1

+2

+0

+2
Aligned Aura, Detect Alignment, Smite Opposition 1/Encounter
0


2nd

+2

+3

+0

+3
Paragonís Touch
1


3rd

+3

+3

+1

+3
Smite Opposition 2/Encounter
2


4th

+4

+4

+1

+4
Divine Grace
3
0


5th

+5

+4

+1

+4
Smite Opposition 3/Encounter
3
1


6th

+6/+1

+5

+2

+5
Divine Companion
3
2


7th

+7/+2

+5

+2

+5
Smite Opposition 4/Encounter
3
2
0


8th

+8/+3

+6

+2

+6
Lasting Smite
3
3
1


9th

+9/+4

+6

+3

+6
Smite Opposition 5/Encounter
3
3
2


10th

+10/+5

+7

+3

+7
Indignation
3
3
2
0


11th

+11/+6/+1

+7

+3

+7
Smite Opposition 6/Encounter
3
3
3
1


12th

+12/+7/+2

+8

+4

+8
Judgement
3
3
3
2


13th

+13/+8/+3

+8

+4

+8
Smite Opposition 7/Encounter
3
3
3
2
0


14th

+14/+9/+4

+9

+4

+9
Aura of Courage
4
3
3
3
1


15th

+15/+10/+5

+9

+5

+9
Smite Opposition 8/Encounter
4
3
3
3
2


16th

+16/+11/+6/+1

+10

+5

+10
Spread the Word
4
4
3
3
2
0


17th

+17/+12/+7/+2

+10

+5

+10
Smite Opposition 9/Encounter
4
4
4
3
3
1


18th

+18/+13/+8/+3

+11

+6

+11
Favoured of the Gods
4
4
4
4
3
2


19th

+19/+14/+9/+4

+11

+6

+11
Smite Opposition 10/Encounter
4
4
4
4
4
3


20th

+20/+15/+10/+5

+12

+6

+12
Indomitable
4
4
4
4
4
4



Weapon and Armour Proficiencies: A Paladin is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, any natural weapons they can gain, and all armour and shields. (Including Tower Shields)

By Word or Example: Some Paladinís are heroic figures who lead with impassioned speeches and great words, while others prefer to demonstrate their beliefs personally, hoping others will see them and take their example.

At 1st level, a Paladin chooses either Wisdom or Charisma to base their class abilities off of. This is referred to as their primary ability modifier.

Aligned Aura (Ex): A Paladin gives off an Aura matching his alignment as a Cleric of his level. (So a 5th Level Lawful Good Paladin gives a Ďstrongí reading to a Detect Law or a Detect Good spell.)

Detect Alignment (Sp): At will, a Paladin can use Detect Alignment. This works the same as a Detect Evil spell, but tells you the full alignments of all targets in range. (In the first round, it tells you which alignments are present, the number of each on the second, and power and location on the third.)
You are vulnerable to Overwhelming auras of Alignments opposed to your own.

Spellcasting: A Paladin can cast a small amount of divine spells. They are drawn from the Paladin spell list given below. A Paladin knows all the spells on his spell list, and casts them spontaneously.

To cast a spell, a Paladin must have their Primary Ability score equalling at least 10+the spells level. The DC for their spells is equal to 10+Spell level+their primary ability modifier.

A Paladins standard spells per day is given in the above table. They receive bonus spells per day for a high primary ability score. Where the table indicates zero spells per day, they gain only any spells for high ability scores.

A Paladin may not cast spells with an alignment descriptor other than his own.

Paladin Spell List
1st Level: Bless, Bless Water, Bless Weapon, Create Water, Cure Light Wounds, Inflict Light Wounds, Detect Poison, Detect Undead, Divine Favour, Endure Elements, Magic Weapon, Protection From (Alignment), Read Magic, Resistance, Lesser Restoration, Virtue, Divine Sacrifice, Golden Barding, Resurgence, Travellerís Mount, Nimbus of Light
2nd Level: Blessed Aim, Zeal, Bullís Strength, Bearís Endurance, Catís Grace, Owlís Wisdom, Eagleís Splendour, Delay Poison, Remove Paralysis, Resist Energy, Shield Other, Undetectable Alignment, Zone of Truth, Shatter, Calm Emotions, Aid, Desecrate, Align Weapon, Consecrate, Death Knell, Gentle Repose, Spiritual Weapon, Darkness, Command, Deific Vengeance.
3rd Level: Blessing of Bahamut, Mass Resurgence, Cure Moderate Wounds, Inflict Moderate Wounds, Daylight, Deeper Darkness, Dispel Magic, Discern Lies, Heal Mount, Magic Circle Against (Alignment), Greater Magic Weapon, Prayer, Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Animate Dead, Bestow Curse, Blindness/Deafness, Contagion, Create Food/Water, Magic Vestment, Searing Light, Speak With Dead, Call Lightning
4th Level: Revenance, Sacred Haven, Spiritual Chariot, Lesser Visage of the Deity, Weapon of the Deity, Winged Mount, Cure Serious Wounds, Inflict Serious Wounds, Holy/Unholy/Axiomatic/Anarchic Sword, Break Enchantment, Death Ward, Dispel (Alignment), Mark of Justice, Neutralise Poison, Restoration, Chaos Hammer, Orderís Wrath, Holy Smite, Unholy Blight, Divine Power, Freedom of Movement, Hold Monster, Poison, Castigate.
5th Level: Cure Critical Wounds, Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass Cure Light Wounds, Mass Inflict Light Wounds, Hallow, Unhallow, Atonement, Disrupting Weapon, Flame Strike, Greater Command, Insect Plague, Raise Dead, Righteous Might, Slay Living, True Seeing, Blade Barrier, Create Undead, Call Lightning Storm
6th Level: Heal, Harm, Mass Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass Inflict Moderate Wounds, Undeath to Death, Dictum, Holy Word, Word of Chaos, Blasphemy, Zealot Pact, Cometfall, Atonement. (A Paladin may never cast Atonement on themselves. Ever.)

Smite Opposition (Su): Once per encounter, and once more for each two levels of Paladin after one the character has, they may channel the power that imbues them with its might to harm their most hated of opponents. They add their primary ability modifier to a single melee or ranged attack roll made with a weapon (including a natural weapon), and their class level plus their primary ability modifier to their damage. However, it only works on creatures with at least one component of alignment opposite the users. (Or, for a True Neutral Paladin, against creatures with no neutral component.)
(For example: A Lawful Good Paladin may smite Chaos or Evil. A Chaotic Neutral Paladin may smite Law only. A True Neutral Paladin may Smite Chaotic Good, Chaotic Evil, Lawful Good, or Lawful Evil.)

Lasting Smite: A Paladin of at least 8th level can infuse an entire barrage of attacks with divine energy. By expending two uses of their Smite ability, they may apply its effects to every attack they make in a round.

Paragonís Touch (Su): A Paladin of at least 2nd level can heal or harm with just a touch of their hands. Their Ďpoolí of Touch points is equal to their primary ability modifier multiplied by their class level. They may spend five minutes of concentration, relaxation, or meditation to recover a number of touch points equal to their level, but no more than once per encounter. They may heal any living or undead creature at a rate of one point per hitpoint, with no limit as to how many points are spent with a single touch. A touch attack must be made to affect an unwilling target.
Alternatively, they may deal damage to any living or undead creature at a rate of one point per hitpoint, although they may not spend more points on a single touch than twice their class level. IN addition, a touch attack must be made to affect an unwilling target, and they take half damage on a successful will save. This effect may be added to the damage of an unarmed attack.

This divine energy can also mimic the effect of various spells. A spell costs touch points equal to triple its Cleric spell level. If it has an EXP component, this component must be paid at the rate of one touch point per 10 EXP, and gold costs must be paid at the rate of one touch point per 150gp.
This ability may mimic the following spells, with a range of touch: Death Knell, Make Whole, Calm Emotions, Gentle Repose, Hold Person, Lesser Restoration, Contagion, Remove Curse, Remove Disease, Neutralise Poison, Poison, Restoration, Break Enchantment, Raise Dead, Hold Monster, Greater Restoration, Resurrection, True Resurrection.

A Paladin may not mimic a spell of higher spell level than half his paladin level.

Divine Grace (Su): The blessings that fill a Paladin with power protect him from disease and misfortune. A Paladin of 4th level is immune to disease, and adds their primary ability modifier to all saving throws.

Divine Companion (Su): A Paladin is often blessed with a powerful companion, a steed or ally blessed by the gods. This ability functions as the Druidís Animal Companion, treating the Paladinís Druid level as his Paladin level -2. He may choose any legal creature, and applies the Celestial Template to it. (Other templates may be applied as well, with DM permission, but they decrease your effective Druid level by their LA, as with using a more powerful creature.)

Indignation (Su): A Paladin of 10th level can bring down divine judgement on those who would harm him and his allies. Once per round, he may gain a bonus equal to his primary ability modifier on attack and damage rolls against a single target who successfully targeted him or any ally with a spell or attack in the last round. In addition, they suffer a -1 penalty on any saving throws made against an ability used by the Paladin.

Judgement (Su): A Paladin of 12th level can imbue their strike with utter destructive power, slaying their foe with one mighty attack. By expending three smite uses, he may make any one attack he makes this turn so that if it hits, it causes a foe susceptible to his Smites to make a will save (DC 10+Half the paladinís class level+their primary ability score modifier) or die immediately. If they pass, they take damage as per a normal smite attack.

Aura of Courage (Su): A Paladin of at least 14th level radiates bravery and skill, and courage in the face of death. He is immune to fear, and all allies within 10ft per point of the Paladinís primary ability modifier gain a morale bonus on all saves against fear effects, and all attack rolls equal to the Paladinís primary ability modifier.

Spread The Word (Sp): A Paladin of at least 16th level is a beacon of his faith and beliefs. With but a few words, he can shift peopleís beliefs to his own.

At will, a Paladin may use the Redemption/Temptation effect of Atonement on any willing creature.

Favoured of the Gods (Su): A Paladin of 18th level is infused with the power of his patrons. Suppressing his might is difficult, if not impossible. A Paladin is immune to death effects, ability drain, and energy drain. (Although not any imposed by any effect he caused knowingly, such as the Hellfire Warlockís con drain.)

Indomitable (Su): A 20th level Paladin is unstoppable. Once per day, when he would be reduced to zero or below hitpoints, the Paladin may trigger this ability. If he does he remains conscious at one hit-point even if he should be dead, and keeps acting until he is no longer capable of detecting any enemies nearby. Only important enemies count; Either a being of CR no more than three less than his ECL, or a group of enemies numbering at least his ECL. While the ability lasts, he cannot take damage. However, he suffers all damage (and secondary effects caused by the damage, such as the disintegration from a Disintegrate spell) when the ability ends. Unless the Paladin has been healed in this time, he will probably die.

Ex Paladins
A Paladin must have a code of conduct, although it tends to differ depending on alignment and personality. A Chaotic paladin will likely vow to defend freedom, and a good paladin righteousness and innocence. An evil paladin may swear to bring suffering whenever possible, and a lawful paladin will promise to serve justice.

A Paladin who grossly and intentionally violates his code of conduct, or changes his alignment, loses all class abilities unless a successful Atonement spell is cast on him.
A Paladin who has changed alignment and does not wish to change back may become a paladin of his new alignment this way.

THE EPIC PALADIN


Level
Special


21
Smite Opposition 11/Encounter


22
Bonus Feat


23
Smite Opposition 12/Encounter


24
Bonus Feat


25
Smite Opposition 13/Encounter


26
Bonus Feat


27
Smite Opposition 14/Encounter


28
Bonus Feat


29
Smite Opposition 15/Encounter


30
Bonus Feat



Level Dependant Abilities: Continue to progress at their standard speed.

Smite Opposition: Continues to gain additional uses at each odd level.

Bonus Feats: Chosen from the following list.
Armor Skin, Devastating Critical, Epic Leadership, Epic Prowess, Epic Reputation, Epic Toughness, Epic Weapon Focus, Great Smiting, Holy Strike, Improved Aura of Courage, Improved Combat Casting, Improved Spell Capacity, Legendary Commander, Legendary Rider, Overwhelming Critical, Perfect Health, Permanent Emanation, Spectral Strike, Spontaneous Spell, Widen Aura of Courage.
Other feats may be added at GM discretion.

Improved Aura of Courage
Prerequisites: Cha OR Wis 25, Aura of Courage
Effect: Add four to the benefit granted by your Aura of Courage

PLAYING A PALADIN
Your best duty is to protect. Even evil needs its allies, and your potent healing and defences should allow you to wade in and do massive damage.
Religion: Religion is often vitally important to Paladins. The vast majority receive their power through dedication to a deity, and serve that deityís interests above all.
Other Classes: Paladins view clerics as companions, unless they are of vastly differing faiths. Some Paladins find Monks excellent examples of temperance and skill, while others would regard them as excessive lunatics.
Combat: Paladins can fill many roles, including an archer, or even a very limited divine blaster. They work best as melee characters, wading into combat.
Advancement: A Paladin is best served with more levels in Paladin, but other alternatives could include Crusader, or various martial Prestige Classes.

PALADIN IN THE WORLD
ĒHe came with eyes of flame, and slew the villain in the square, and then smiled at me, and gave me a dagger, and made me promise to protect innocence. I want to be like him one day.Ē ~Tobias, a young boy, on Paladins.
Daily Life: Some Paladinís follow a life of meditation and strict contemplation and denial, while many others allow themselves many pleasures, the better to keep their spirits high.
Notables: There are more Paladins of note than can be dealt with in this text. The mighty hero Donnar Brightscale, a Dragonborn, and the terrible villain Keldon Blackblade.
Organisations: Paladins often form great orders devoted to a single ideal, while some others form academies that try to instill virtues into their students.

NPC Reaction
Heroic Paladins are generally all but worshipped wherever they go, while those obviously the servants of darkness are reviled, the only thing keeping them from being thrown out their powers.

PALADIN IN THE GAME
Paladins provide a powerful martial character, with some magical assistance and powerful supernatural abilities.
Adaption: Paladins are a rather wide concept as it is, but they could easily be changed to represent arcane warriors who channel magical energy to destroy those they oppose.
Encounters: A party of a single alignment can easily be faced by a paladin, while an order of paladins could provide intrigue, or show that alignment is not everything.

PALADIN FEATS

Beacon of Knowledge
Benefit: You may base your Paladin special abilities off of Intelligence.
Normal: Your Paladin abilities are based on Charisma or Wisdom.

Extra Smite
Prerequisites: Smite Opposition ability.
Benefit: You gain one additional use per encounter of this ability.
Special: You may take this feat more than once.

Lasting Touch
Prerequisites: Paragonís Touch ability.
Benefit: You gain additional touch points equal to your Paladin level.
Special: You may take this feat more than once, but never more than your Paladin level divided by nine.

Steel Touch
Prerequisites: Paragonís Touch ability.
Benefit: You may use any effect of this ability by touching your foe with a weapon or other item held in your hand.
Normal: You must touch your target.

Ziegander
2011-02-19, 11:09 PM
This is a very good Paladin fix. I like By Word or Example, I like the Beacon of Knowledge feat a lot, but there are a couple smallish issues.

1) Divine Grace still references Charisma modifier when it ought to be based on primary ability modifier.

2) Lasting Smite needs bolded. :smallcool:

3) Paragon's Touch seems to be even worse than the oft-lamented Lay on Hands. It should refresh at the rate of class level per hour, in my opinion.

Jarian
2011-02-19, 11:27 PM
Your Paladin is suffering from Rogue Syndrome: i.e., it's almost worth taking any other class rather than the last level. This is slightly alleviated by you getting a caster level at that last level, but even so... Capstone. This class needs one. Deserves one, anyway.

Hurrdurr, that's what I get for not reading the last ability. Still, like Siosilvar says below, you should probably update the table. :smallwink:

Siosilvar
2011-02-19, 11:44 PM
Last couple abilities should be added to the table.


Paragonís Touch (Su)...Their Ďpoolí of Touch points is equal to their primary ability modifier multiplied by their class level, and refreshes at a rate of class level/day.

Sorry, what? Why would you need to give the Paladin less Lay on Hands?


I'm not sure Indignation is worth a use of Smite. Unless you really need the -1 to saves, Smite is better.
...Looking again, I see there's no alignment restriction on Indignation. Still, point stands as it's a mid-high level ability.

Judgement, as well, is probably a three-or-four-use-er, not a five.

You've also moved Divine Grace back some and Aura of Courage back by 10 levels. Although the class should be less diptastic, that's a little drastic.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-20, 10:17 AM
This is a very good Paladin fix. I like By Word or Example, I like the Beacon of Knowledge feat a lot, but there are a couple smallish issues.

1) Divine Grace still references Charisma modifier when it ought to be based on primary ability modifier.
Oops, thanks.

2) Lasting Smite needs bolded. :smallcool:
Ack! I normally put ability upgrades in italics below the thing they're upgrading, but I moved it.

3) Paragon's Touch seems to be even worse than the oft-lamented Lay on Hands. It should refresh at the rate of class level per hour, in my opinion.
Think you might be right. I had it in my head that Lay on Hands had less uses than that in the normal Paladin.


Your Paladin is suffering from Rogue Syndrome: i.e., it's almost worth taking any other class rather than the last level. This is slightly alleviated by you getting a caster level at that last level, but even so... Capstone. This class needs one. Deserves one, anyway.

Hurrdurr, that's what I get for not reading the last ability. Still, like Siosilvar says below, you should probably update the table. :smallwink:
Oops. DXD It was very late at night when I finished it.


Last couple abilities should be added to the table.
Yep, oops, thanks.

Sorry, what? Why would you need to give the Paladin less Lay on Hands?
I thought the Paladin had less than I have it as standard.

I'm not sure Indignation is worth a use of Smite. Unless you really need the -1 to saves, Smite is better.
...Looking again, I see there's no alignment restriction on Indignation. Still, point stands as it's a mid-high level ability.
If someone's attacking you/your friends, you're still gonna get mad. :smalltongue:
I may do an ACF for it though. It wouldn't work for evil.

Judgement, as well, is probably a three-or-four-use-er, not a five.
Okay.

You've also moved Divine Grace back some and Aura of Courage back by 10 levels. Although the class should be less diptastic, that's a little drastic.
Divine Grace was moved purely to remove dips, whereas Aura of Courage I just entirely forgot about until the last minute. So I boosted it a bit.

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-20, 12:48 PM
The reason why per day mechanics were adopted in 3.5 relates to the habit of players to "game" their expenditures. Hence, encounters will be put off until 5 minutes before the refresh and then be used to the limit of the refresh, leaving them with no net loss in the next encounter. In play, believe me, this is just as annoying as the 4 encounter workday...

I'd suggest either wording it so that it's specific that it only applies per hour were no points were spent or just go with giving them a per day pool.

I'm actually wondering why you didn't just fold the whole shebang of spellcasting into the Paragon's Touch ability, as it seems silly to have both a points pool and a vancian spellcasting ability on the same character.

Lix Lorn
2011-02-20, 01:32 PM
Ah, but they don't get the entire pool back each time. They just get a fraction of it.

They have normal spellcasting with far more varied applications, while the touch is almost all healing/harming. Also notice there are stronger spells in there.

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-20, 04:18 PM
Even a fraction will lead to such behavior. You used to get varying amounts of pp back per hour or ten minutes in 2e and it was incredibly agrivating, not to mention somewhat straining on versimilitude when people get up to it.

Allow it and it will happen,besides it seems counter intuitive that they regain points every hour, on the hour, no matter what they do in the meantime. If you want to use non-daily recovery, at least charge an action for it; 5-10 minutes like the manoeuvre rearranging in TOB seems like a good precident, max 1/encounter

Lix Lorn
2011-02-20, 04:42 PM
So, 1/encounter they can refresh class level?

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-20, 05:30 PM
I'm one of those folks who adopted the 4e idea of a "short rest" of 5 minutes of breath catching refreshing encounter abilities.

Yours works too but you should probably stipulate it being after the encounter so "after each encounter, the paladin may spend 5 minute in prayer and recuperation; if he does so, he regains a number of Touch points equal to his level"

Lix Lorn
2011-02-20, 09:30 PM
That seems reasonable.

Edit: Epic levels added in. To be honest, they're pretty dull. Personallly, I'd be multiclassing after 20th.

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-20, 10:03 PM
Lix, I come to ask you this question - do you feel that a combination between your paladin and the Harrowed (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=188148) are a flavorful enough combination to warrant a Prestige class?

Lix Lorn
2011-02-20, 10:14 PM
Do I think a possessed paladin is awesome enough to be a PrC?

Can I get a HELL YEAH from the congregation? :smalltongue:

IronWilliam
2011-03-01, 06:37 PM
One problem with the capstone. It specifies that it ends when you can't SEE any more foes. What if you can't see them but you know they are there? All it would take woul be invisibility or a darkness spell to make them drop dead... Also, can they heal themselves while using it?

Other then that, it sounds like a great fix!

Lix Lorn
2011-03-01, 07:06 PM
Ooh, nice catch. And yes, they can heal.

IronWilliam
2011-03-02, 10:02 PM
Maybe give them some sort of rage ability when Indomidable is active? It's not like you try and protect yourself at that point. Also, it needs to be that they keep fighting until there are no enemies that they are aware of within a certain area or give the ability a time limit. Otherwise, if you knew that there was, say, an evil Lich on another continent, you could invincibly travel there over a month and kill it.

I really like how this works, it feels like the original Paladin class, but is finally not woefully underpowered. Also, don't you think it's ironic to have designed a Paladin class and be recruiting for a harem?

Lix Lorn
2011-03-03, 05:41 AM
Maybe give them some sort of rage ability when Indomidable is active? It's not like you try and protect yourself at that point. Also, it needs to be that they keep fighting until there are no enemies that they are aware of within a certain area or give the ability a time limit. Otherwise, if you knew that there was, say, an evil Lich on another continent, you could invincibly travel there over a month and kill it.

I really like how this works, it feels like the original Paladin class, but is finally not woefully underpowered. Also, don't you think it's ironic to have designed a Paladin class and be recruiting for a harem?
Rage is tempting, and that's a good point that I'm not sure how to word around. It was originally within sight. Maybe if I say 'until there are no enemies that they can sense?'

Thankyou!
Ah, you're looking at this from a stereotype. Imagine a Chaotic Good paladin. You really think they're going to be chaste? How about Chaotic Neutral?
For that matter, I once read rules for a Lawful Good bondage deity. Lawful Good does not mean Lawful Stupid or, despite how I sometimes act, Lawful Boring.

IronWilliam
2011-03-03, 04:12 PM
The rage could be like a barbarians rage, and I think the Indomidable ability could be worded so it only works for enemies that are part of this encouter. Make it so if the Paladin stops fighting, the effect immediately ends. The definition of "fighting" should be fairly clear to a good DM.

And you really found a LG god of that?!? Is the god really LG by most peoples standards, or is it just another rediculous third-party sourcebook. And yes, I am taking the stereotyped view of Paladins, but thats a stereotype because most of them are LG.
Edit: the Paladins I play are DEFINITLY not lawful boring!

Lix Lorn
2011-03-03, 05:25 PM
She was homebrew, but she seemed LG to me.
The problem with LG is that it's often viewed more like Miko than someone more actually laid back. Roy is LG, and he hits on Miko and loves Celia.

...this is offtopic. Continue in PMs if you like, or I'm sure there are dozens of alignment debate threads. :smallsmile:

As for the rage, Indomitable is pretty strong as is. I'm wary of making it stronger.

IronWilliam
2011-03-03, 07:33 PM
We're worried about making a Paladin overpowered? Everything... Seems... Backwards... Yay!

Drynwyn
2011-03-03, 07:43 PM
Pretty good, but I don't like the capstone. it's flavorful, but due to how common resurrection is, I could see a paladin just suiciding the BBEG, killing him, than dying, their needs to be some way to die while you are .indomitable. Maybe make it like Stance of immortal Fortitude from ToB, but without automatic ending. Also, it removes the threat if death from the game: I find it unlikely that a 20th level character couldn't get in some healing before the ability ended.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-04, 07:07 AM
Threat of dying? At level 20, there IS no threat of dying. And I sort of feel that a paladin should be very, very good at not-dying.

(envisions a paladin fighting an army, and slaying EVERY SINGLE ONE before collapsing at -2395476 hp)

lesser_minion
2011-03-05, 08:31 AM
So... what happens when two 20th-level paladins get into a fight against each other then? Do they just keep fighting until the universe ends then keep fighting even after that?

Sure, it's cool, but toning it down a little really wouldn't hurt.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-05, 05:49 PM
So... what happens when two 20th-level paladins get into a fight against each other then? Do they just keep fighting until the universe ends then keep fighting even after that?

Sure, it's cool, but toning it down a little really wouldn't hurt.
Pretty much!

Why? It's not stronger than some stuff that other classes can do at 20th. It's much cooller in fluff than crunch.

IronWilliam
2011-03-06, 12:14 AM
It's powerful, but not particularly unbalancing. There are still many tactics that would be effective. Disintegrate would still turn them into a pile of ash, for example. I think people who think it is too powerful are comparing it to the abilities of the original Paladin class, which is woefully underpowered.

Land Outcast
2011-03-06, 12:52 AM
It's powerful, but not particularly unbalancing. There are still many tactics that would be effective. Disintegrate would still turn them into a pile of ash, for example. I think people who think it is too powerful are comparing it to the abilities of the original Paladin class, which is woefully underpowered.
Yep, I mean, Disintegrate, a nice wall of force, flying + dispel magic makes his immortality pointless... plus, the paladin with heavy armor will have quite slow speed once any haste effects wear off...

And then there's stuff like an extended Delay Death around, which does essentially the same thing.

That's the problem I usually see with "fixes", perhaps not most, but a fair number of people tend to compare the abilities with that from the original class, rather than with a more powerful one, that's why it is usually a good thing to say which power level one is aiming at.


Do they just keep fighting until the universe ends then keep fighting even after that?Now, that'd be extremely cool :smallcool:

Lix Lorn
2011-03-06, 02:31 PM
It's powerful, but not particularly unbalancing. There are still many tactics that would be effective. Disintegrate would still turn them into a pile of ash, for example. I think people who think it is too powerful are comparing it to the abilities of the original Paladin class, which is woefully underpowered.
Thanks for helping, but... what are the chances of them failing the disintegrate save? XD


Now, that'd be extremely cool :smallcool:
That's what I thought. xD

IronWilliam
2011-03-06, 08:53 PM
Even without disintegrate, something mind affecting that made the Paladin no longer see them as an enemy would work. (such as charm person.). If you wanted to find the rules for it, you could try sundering limbs. Polymorphing effects would work, and teleporting away would end the effect even if the enemy returned immediately. If you're creative, there are all kinds of ways to kill them other then hit point loss. Suffocation/drowning, ability score damage, the list goes on and on.
EDIT: The disintegrate spell deals damage even if they make the save, and any creature reduced to "0 or fewer hit poins" is turned into a pile of ash. Since they have to be below zero for Indomidable to activate, it woud kill them.

Land Outcast
2011-03-06, 09:14 PM
EDIT: The disintegrate spell deals damage even if they make the save, and any creature reduced to "0 or fewer hit poins" is turned into a pile of ash. Since they have to be below zero for Indomidable to activate, it woud kill them.

Damn... that'd be lame...
Now that you say it, it's a pretty nice way to slay a Frenzied Berserker.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 06:06 AM
...that renders the entire ability pointless. No capstone should be beaten by a staple 6th level spell.

Ability boosted.

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 08:07 AM
And then there's stuff like an extended Delay Death around, which does essentially the same thing.

Being available elsewhere does not mean it's suitable for inclusion here -- being published does not make a given piece of material balanced, and things found in prestige classes are often intended to be exclusive.

Any kind of absolute ability is very likely to be broken, even if it isn't unbalanced, simply because anything that should be able to overcome it has to be expressed as an exception. Sticking a reasonable limit on the ability doesn't hurt the overall effect, but it does make the end result much more robust.

The ability would fit perfectly well if there was a sensible way to overcome it, and it would also have no real way to completely break the game.

Even a capstone shouldn't break the game.


I think people who think it is too powerful are comparing it to the abilities of the original Paladin class, which is woefully underpowered.

Actually, no. You don't need to be especially powerful in D&D, but you do need to be able to perform in a number of different situations.

This ability doesn't help with any of the paladin's flaws, but it is extremely strong, and very abusable, even for a capstone. And declaring that it's not overpowered because it can be countered is not necessarily helpful -- most people can't counter it, and every single one of your suggestions comes from a class that is widely acknowledged to be seriously overpowered.


...that renders the entire ability pointless. No capstone should be beaten by a staple 6th level spell.

All capstones should be beatable, and so far the only things we've established as being able to beat it are being supplied by characters who are themselves overpowered.

A warblade has no real way of beating a paladin who pops this (and has no real way of escaping the encounter). A rogue could do it, but would need a fair bit of preparation first, and he'd still be relying on a wizard or an artificer somewhere along the line.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 09:25 AM
How does it break the game? It's not hard to just run away, or teleport away. For that matter, you could try to teleport the Paladin away. Even Warblades get abilities to increase their speed, don't they? Admittedly, Rogues have a problem, but they could just hide/move silently away.

Land Outcast
2011-03-07, 09:33 AM
Being available elsewhere does not mean it's suitable for inclusion here -- being published does not make a given piece of material balanced, and things found in prestige classes are often intended to be exclusive.

Any kind of absolute ability is very likely to be broken, even if it isn't unbalanced, simply because anything that should be able to overcome it has to be expressed as an exception. Sticking a reasonable limit on the ability doesn't hurt the overall effect, but it does make the end result much more robust.My, you're right about that... :smallredface:
I just fell into a dumb fallacy which implies that "as long as something of equal or greater power has been published, the ability is ok". Published does not equal throughly playtested, regretebly.

I hope this helps me as a reminder not to fall for fallacies in my arguments again... or at least avoid them regularly.
Thank you.


Actually, no. You don't need to be especially powerful in D&D, but you do need to be able to perform in a number of different situations.I agree with this statement, but I think the point of disagreement about power regarding this class could be solved by Lix Lorn stating the level of power aimed at.


This ability doesn't help with any of the paladin's flaws, but it is extremely strong, and very abusable, even for a capstone. And declaring that it's not overpowered because it can be countered is not necessarily helpful -- most people can't counter it, and every single one of your suggestions comes from a class that is widely acknowledged to be seriously overpowered.

All capstones should be beatable, and so far the only things we've established as being able to beat it are being supplied by characters who are themselves overpowered.

A warblade has no real way of beating a paladin who pops this (and has no real way of escaping the encounter). A rogue could do it, but would need a fair bit of preparation first, and he'd still be relying on a wizard or an artificer somewhere along the line. "Class seriously overpowered" You mean full casters? (etherealness, wind walk, for the cleric) In my experience, at levels 17-20 some things happen:


Every character has means of teleportation -or at the very least dimension dooring- from their equipment or class.

Many characters have boosted their specialty so far that they can't be touched/countered except by casters or one special kind of character. (Examples: Ninja/Thief Acrobat with AC up in the 50-60's who can turn ethereal plenty of times per day, melee characters with charge builds, stealthy characters with a ridiculously high hide bonus. Overpowered as they might be, they are not form highly optimized builds. Yes, they can be countered, but not by every character class.)

Not that I like that situation, but it just happens.
And then, at level 20, it is not realistic -in game terms- to expect single characters who aren't casters to be able to beat another character. It just isn't, now, if the situation was that a "typical party has no real way of beating a paladin who pops this" then yes, it'd be broken.

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 10:16 AM
How does it break the game? It's not hard to just run away, or teleport away. For that matter, you could try to teleport the Paladin away. Even Warblades get abilities to increase their speed, don't they? Admittedly, Rogues have a problem, but they could just hide/move silently away.

Being able to survive is not winning, is it?

Think of the paladin as a PC. Against many enemies, this ability amounts to "once per day, a paladin may automatically gain 6,000 xp with no strings attached", since many enemies aren't going to have easy access to things like Imprisonment that will actually defeat a paladin who uses this ability.


And then, at level 20, it is not realistic -in game terms- to expect single characters who aren't casters to be able to beat another character. It just isn't, now, if the situation was that a "typical party has no real way of beating a paladin who pops this" then yes, it'd be broken.

You're half right -- for the most part, it's a question of what monsters can do to win a fight, not what characters can do.

A fair number of those monsters are going to be casters (about half of the core opponents a pally 20 might face seem to be, not counting dragons), but a lot of them aren't -- and the ones that aren't are often expected to be used against a party either on their own or with a few friends.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 10:38 AM
...and then at the end they die. :smallconfused:

Land Outcast
2011-03-07, 11:00 AM
...and then at the end they die. :smallconfused:

Yes... actually this ability can be abused if the paladin is played in a purely "metagamey" way. I don't belive any character would be willing to "fight and die" as a standard combat procedure... particularly a paladin, who is given healing powers by their deity.

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 11:04 AM
...and then at the end they die. :smallconfused:

Unless healed beforehand. I'm pretty sure there are ways to guarantee that that happens. Put a couple of simple limits on the ability, and it won't completely break no matter what obscure combo the player comes up with.

If nothing else, the all-out metagaming solution would be to have one of the paladin's friends trivially attack the paladin to keep the ability active while he's being healed.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 11:16 AM
But if they do that, then they wouldn't have died anyway.

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 11:18 AM
But if they do that, then they wouldn't have died anyway.

If they were vulnerable to dying, then there's a fair chance that they wouldn't be so able to guarantee that they get a heal.

With a bit of work, it seems to me like a pally could potentially use Lifebond Vestments to heal himself of any excess damage, for example. It would depend on metagaming again, but it would work.

Land Outcast
2011-03-07, 11:24 AM
Actually, he can be killed, and healing will do little good if he receives enough damage:

Lets say our paladin has 200 hp.

He now is dropped from 200hp to 1hp to 0hp, activating Indomitable.

He is healed back to 200hp.

He receives 210 damage, but the damage is delayed until the end of the ability.

He is still at full hp so he can't be healed further.

Ability ends, paladin receives 210 damage and dies.

------------------------------------------------------

Also: it is only once per day.

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 11:45 AM
Actually, he takes the damage and cannot be reduced below 1 hit point, so your example wouldn't work.

And you could also find a second way to cheat death by hit points -- I'm pretty sure there are a couple of magic items that put you on -9 and stable if you would otherwise be killed, for example.

As for once per day, that's not really relevant -- like any per-day ability, you're going to make sure it's on hand for all of the important fights.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 12:02 PM
Changed so Land Outcast is right. :smalltongue:

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 12:32 PM
Even without healing, this completely cheeses out anything else that would allow you to cheat death -- for example, a character with a contingent Revivify can just be killed again.

A character with 20 levels of Paladin and a contingent Revivify spell becomes invulnerable to damage for the entire fight, then gets resurrected instantly when the fight ends. It might only give you a free boatload of XP once a week, but it still works, and free XP is bad (note also that dying and winning is still winning, and it doesn't cost anything to resurrect someone at 20th level or above).

It's much easier to just have the character die properly once they've taken a certain amount of damage. For example: "While this ability is active, the paladin treats his constitution score as being 40 points higher for the purposes of determining hit points. This ability lasts for five minutes or until the encounter ends, whichever comes first."

That fits the theme, but it doesn't force you to worry about ferreting out whole piles of exceptions, and it can't completely eliminate the possibility of losing when combined with some sort of contingent resurrection scheme.

The other problem with this ability is what happens when a particularly munchkiny paladin decides to arbitrarily declare himself or his pet rat to be an enemy, then walk around never actually doing anything about the 'enemy'.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-07, 01:04 PM
Eccch... but the idea of them just not dying is a very powerful image. Not dying easily is fine, sure, but not even close.

And personally, if someone was playing with me and they called their rat an enemy, I'd have an annoyed god punch them.

lesser_minion
2011-03-07, 01:42 PM
Eccch... but the idea of them just not dying is a very powerful image. Not dying easily is fine, sure, but not even close.

The problem is the same as with any other absolute effect -- as a general rule, every time an absolute effect crops up in the game, it either leads to an absurdity somewhere else (e.g. the god of fear being a complete and utter joke because everyone who faces him is already immune to fear); or it runs the risk of being combo'd in some way (e.g. the Ikea Tarrasque, a troll with immunity to fire and acid damage).

Alternatively, you end up with an arms race where the god of fear and the god of courage each try to add as many of the prefix 'mega-' to their respective 'scary' and 'not scared' powers, until they end up with 'infini-not-scared' and 'infini-scary' and you have to decide which of the two transfinite numbers take precedence (you presumably determine that by which one takes the 'my transfinite number of 'mega-' prefixes is bigger than yours' feat the most times).

Sure, it's cool to be completely unkillable no matter what. It's cool to burn a fire elemental to death. It's cool to stare the god of fear in the face, laugh, and pull his trousers down to reveal that he's wearing boxers with hearts printed all over them.

But at some point, this kind of 'cool' and 'awesome' simply stops being sane.

Sean K. Reynolds has a pretty interesting article (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/misc/variantfewerabsolutes1.html) on the subject.

IronWilliam
2011-03-09, 09:42 PM
If disintegrate hits them when they are below zero, but they get healed and would not be reduced to below zero from the damage, do they still turn into ash? Because you may need to re-word the ability.

Lix Lorn
2011-03-10, 04:50 AM
The damage isn't applied until after the ability ends. If you go below zero THEN, you are disintegrated.