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View Full Version : What do you lose by no longer qualifying for a PrC?



WarKitty
2011-02-22, 11:35 AM
Specifically, I'm wondering about the "+1 spell level" PrC classes. Suppose for example I have a Druid6/Lion of Talsid 4. My alignment shifts from NG to TN, causing me to cease qualifying for Lion of Talisid. What class features would I retain, and what would I lose? Specifically, at what level would spellcasting, wild shape, and my animal companion function?

CycloneJoker
2011-02-22, 11:37 AM
Specifically, I'm wondering about the "+1 spell level" PrC classes. Suppose for example I have a Druid6/Lion of Talsid 4. My alignment shifts from NG to TN, causing me to cease qualifying for Lion of Talisid. What class features would I retain, and what would I lose? Specifically, at what level would spellcasting, wild shape, and my animal companion function?

Does it say you cannot advance/lose abilities? If not, you're fine, as far as I can tell.

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 11:40 AM
Does it say you cannot advance/lose abilities? If not, you're fine, as far as I can tell.

It wouldn't be a fall in the paladin sense, but I would no longer meet the requirements for the prestige class, which IIRC means you lose access to the abilities.

CycloneJoker
2011-02-22, 11:44 AM
It wouldn't be a fall in the paladin sense, but I would no longer meet the requirements for the prestige class, which IIRC means you lose access to the abilities.

Um, no. IT says that, specifically, if you do.

Urpriest
2011-02-22, 11:47 AM
It wouldn't be a fall in the paladin sense, but I would no longer meet the requirements for the prestige class, which IIRC means you lose access to the abilities.

The rules on this are...contentious. Suffice it to say that this feature of prestige classes is only specified in Complete Warrior and one or two of the other Completes. Other books (including the DMG) don't say that you lose PrC abilities if you fail to meet prereqs.

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 11:52 AM
Ok, I looked up the BoED requirements:


A character who ceases to be of good alignment or who willfully
commits an evil act loses all special abilities and spells
acquired in this prestige class, and may not gain new levels in
that class. She may regain her abilities if she atones for her violations.

So, by RAW I would lose the last 4 levels of spells. Ok. Not sure what qualifies for a special ability? Although losing the spell levels would be weirder to justify in-game. Not as hard as justifying losing HD on the companion, though.

Telonius
2011-02-22, 11:53 AM
Losing prerequisites is usually only an issue for Feats. If you lose the prereq, you lose the feat. In general, Prestige classes don't work like that. Unless it specifically says, "You lose x abilities if you do y," you keep all class abilities you already have, no matter what happens to your prerequisites.

Note that if you no longer have prerequisites in a PrC, you can't take any additional levels of that PrC; but you keep what you already have.

EDIT: Missed that bit at the start of BoED's PrC section ... so yes, you'd lose all the spells. I suppose your options would be, atone or retrain.

Asheram
2011-02-22, 11:54 AM
Ok. Not sure what qualifies for a special ability?

All that isn't skillpoints, HP, saves and bab, it sounds like.

Dusk Eclipse
2011-02-22, 11:55 AM
It wouldn't be a fall in the paladin sense, but I would no longer meet the requirements for the prestige class, which IIRC means you lose access to the abilities.

That is actually a pretty debated topic, some people claim you lose everything save for HD, BAB, saves and skills, but otherwise loose all the other abilities granted by the class.

OTOH some people say that this specific clause only applies to the classes printed in CW, CArc and the Dragon Disciple, since those specifically mention loosing class features if you no longer fir the requirements (which in turn brings the schrodinger dragon disciple issue)

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 11:57 AM
All that isn't skillpoints, it sounds like.

Skillpoints and base attack bonus.

How does that work in-universe, anyway? You lose some of your spellcasting abilities, but you don't lose other spellcasting abilities that are the exact same abilities but lower level? Your companion actually loses hit points because your alignment changes? Just trying to figure out how this would roleplay out in a game world without giving the characters an explicit knowledge of how many levels they have and in what.

Telonius
2011-02-22, 11:59 AM
All that isn't skillpoints, HP, saves and bab, it sounds like.

I'd say that it most likely means anything in the "Special" column of the class. If you somehow get extra proficiency in weapons or armor because of the class (haven't checked to see if this would be possible, but if you did), then I'd say you probably keep that.


Skillpoints and base attack bonus.

How does that work in-universe, anyway? You lose some of your spellcasting abilities, but you don't lose other spellcasting abilities that are the exact same abilities but lower level? Your companion actually loses hit points because your alignment changes? Just trying to figure out how this would roleplay out in a game world without giving the characters an explicit knowledge of how many levels they have and in what.


Your god says: "Hey, I gave you those nifty spells and powers so you could use them for good, and you go and turn Neutral? I'm taking my stuff back now."

Choco
2011-02-22, 12:21 PM
Complete Warrior, page 16 says that If a character no longer meets the requirements for a prestige class, they lose everything except Hit Dice, BaB increases, and increases to saves.

GeminiVeil
2011-02-22, 12:29 PM
The response I got when I was asking a similar question in the Q&A 3.5 by RAW was that if the PrC comes from the CWar or CArc, then you lose everything other than what has already been listed. (BAB, saves, skill points) No other book makes mention of the penalties for losing access to a PrC. I find that reasoning a little odd myself, though, since both the phrasings in those two books seems to be all-inclusive, not limited to just those two books, but it seemed like I was in the minority that thought that. :smallsmile: (might not have actually been, just seemed that way)

Choco
2011-02-22, 12:33 PM
The response I got when I was asking a similar question in the Q&A 3.5 by RAW was that if the PrC comes from the CWar or CArc, then you lose everything other than what has already been listed. (BAB, saves, skill points) No other book makes mention of the penalties for losing access to a PrC. I find that reasoning a little odd myself, though, since both the phrasings in those two books seems to be all-inclusive, not limited to just those two books, but it seemed like I was in the minority that thought that. :smallsmile: (might not have actually been, just seemed that way)

Probably because the first time they chose to address that was in CW and CA. I have been under the impression that added rules clarifications like those ARE all-inclusive unless otherwise stated.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-22, 12:35 PM
Given that quote from CW, I would say that if a class advanced your Animal Companion's HD then no longer qualifying for the class would not reduce the power of your Animal Companion.

For some PrC Prereq's, I could see this being hand-waved. For example, an Ur-Priest should not lose his spellcasting if he becomes Good aligned, since he can just take power from Evil deities instead.

But a Hulking Hurler who gets permanently reduced in size would obviously lose the abilities of the class.

potatocubed
2011-02-22, 12:38 PM
But a Hulking Hurler who gets permanently reduced in size would obviously lose the abilities of the class.

"It's not my fault. I just can't hulk like I used to!" :smallfrown:

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 12:41 PM
Your god says: "Hey, I gave you those nifty spells and powers so you could use them for good, and you go and turn Neutral? I'm taking my stuff back now."

Except by the fluff of the class itself, those spells aren't coming from the god. They're coming from nature in the same way that regular druid spells come. A neutral character is still qualified to be a druid.

RndmNumGen
2011-02-22, 12:44 PM
I wouldn't think you would lose any abilities unless the class specifically says you do. After all, this makes perfect sense for alignment or deity-based classes, since they can revoke your power(much like a cleric or paladin) but skill-based classes is just stuff you know.

I mean, clerics don't fall, but their god can refuse to answer their prayers, right?

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-22, 12:49 PM
I wouldn't think you would lose any abilities unless the class specifically says you do. After all, this makes perfect sense for alignment or deity-based classes, since they can revoke your power(much like a cleric or paladin) but skill-based classes is just stuff you know.

I mean, clerics don't fall, but their god can refuse to answer their prayers, right?

If you lose one (or more of) the feats that qualify you for Master Thrower, then you probably should lose those abilities.

"If you can't do the basics, you'll never master the intricate moves."

VirOath
2011-02-22, 12:53 PM
Except by the fluff of the class itself, those spells aren't coming from the god. They're coming from nature in the same way that regular druid spells come. A neutral character is still qualified to be a druid.

Yes, but BoED ties alignment and choices directly into your advancement. You've gained that power by walking a path of pure virtue, by being an example above all else and a bastion for good.

You turn your back on that path and you forsake that gain, and it forsakes you. You have to seek atonement and forgiveness to regain that advancement.

Yes, BoED is more strict than the paladin code in a really retarded way at times.

FMArthur
2011-02-22, 12:54 PM
That is actually a pretty debated topic, some people claim you lose everything save for HD, BAB, saves and skills, but otherwise loose all the other abilities granted by the class.

OTOH some people say that this specific clause only applies to the classes printed in CW, CArc and the Dragon Disciple, since those specifically mention loosing class features if you no longer fir the requirements (which in turn brings the schrodinger dragon disciple issue)

No, you've got it messed up; it's a rule for prestige classes in CW and CArc, and if you do decide that it applies to everything else, then the Dragon Disciple is one example of something that brings the game to a screeching halt as a consequence of that. They become a half-dragon, stop qualifying for the class, stop being a half-dragon, and qualify again...

Curmudgeon has in the past also brought to light the fact that by RAW you don't actually have a way to gain your lost features back except via retraining. That resolves the Dragon Disciple conundrum but doesn't exactly fix anything design-wise; this actually makes the rule even more of a disaster to include in your games.

Psyren
2011-02-22, 12:58 PM
All that isn't skillpoints, HP, saves and bab, it sounds like.

You also keep spellcasting progression.

Why?

Because on EVERY PrC table in 3.5, spellcasting progression is kept separate from "Special Abilities." And text doesn't trump it, because "special ability" isn't defined anywhere else.

So if you were, say, a Sorcerer/Loremaster who somehow lost Skill Focus: Knowledge, you would lose all your Secrets, Lore and the two bonus languages - but you would not lose any spells/day or spells known.

Telonius
2011-02-22, 01:00 PM
Except by the fluff of the class itself, those spells aren't coming from the god. They're coming from nature in the same way that regular druid spells come. A neutral character is still qualified to be a druid.

I'm really not getting that from the description - it seems like the class powers are coming directly from Talisid. The Lions are described as his champions, and he's described as their patron. Think of it this way: you get six levels of Druid spells, then however many levels of Lion of Talisid spells. Talisid can't do a thing about those six levels of Druid spells, any more than he could affect levels of Sorcerer spells (assuming you multiclassed before going into LoT).

ShneekeyTheLost
2011-02-22, 01:06 PM
"It's not my fault. I just can't hulk like I used to!" :smallfrown:

Actually, I used this to my advantage to create the Incredible Hulk, using a Halfling with Stoneblessed and Mountainous Rage (actual Large size while raging). Don't make him angry, you won't like him while he's angry.

His strength goes from 6 to 42 when he rages, because all the bonuses from Warhulk suddenly go on-line. Among other things.

CapnVan
2011-02-22, 01:10 PM
The response I got when I was asking a similar question in the Q&A 3.5 by RAW was that if the PrC comes from the CWar or CArc, then you lose everything other than what has already been listed. (BAB, saves, skill points) No other book makes mention of the penalties for losing access to a PrC. I find that reasoning a little odd myself, though, since both the phrasings in those two books seems to be all-inclusive, not limited to just those two books, but it seemed like I was in the minority that thought that. :smallsmile: (might not have actually been, just seemed that way)

I tend to concur with you. I keep in mind the DMG's cautionary tone with regard to PrC's in general.

I think a lot of players see PrCs as a sort of divine right to power up their PC.

I think the DMG is pretty clear that PrCs are meant to be at the discretion of the DM.

And I don't see anything in Complete Warrior which would suggest that the intent or the wording on p.16 don't apply to all PrCs. To view it otherwise reflects an exceptionally selective reading.

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 01:21 PM
I'm really not getting that from the description - it seems like the class powers are coming directly from Talisid. The Lions are described as his champions, and he's described as their patron. Think of it this way: you get six levels of Druid spells, then however many levels of Lion of Talisid spells. Talisid can't do a thing about those six levels of Druid spells, any more than he could affect levels of Sorcerer spells (assuming you multiclassed before going into LoT).

That doesn't make any sense to me. Druid spells come from nature, not from a deity. If you're advancing your druid spells, you are continuing to get your spells from nature. The LoT strongly implies that you are progressing the abilities you obtained as a druid with the animal companion and spellcasting, not gaining new abilities. You do gain some new additional abilities from your god, but you also continue to progress as a druid, although with some parts slowed down.

It doesn't help that as far as the universe I'm playing in is concerned, a LoT is a druid with some variant abilities and an unusual devotion to a particular deity.

CapnVan
2011-02-22, 04:11 PM
If you're advancing your druid spells, you are continuing to get your spells from nature.

This doesn't logically follow. You aren't advancing as a druid — you're advancing as a LoT. You've multi-classed. Note the fact that you don't receive any of the other benefits of the original druid class —*that's because you're no longer a druid.

That means that your spells aren't necessarily deriving from any source other than Talisid (or, at the very least, the spells gained under the PrC). One could make the argument, but there's no evidence to suggest that that is correct.


The LoT strongly implies that you are progressing the abilities you obtained as a druid...

It does? It specifically states that some cleric/rangers take the PrC. That's an unusual start to progressing your druidic abilities. If the designers were totally focused on druids, they'd have made one of the requirements the ability to speak Druidic, like FL.


...with the animal companion and spellcasting, not gaining new abilities. You do gain some new additional abilities from your god, but you also continue to progress as a druid, although with some parts slowed down.

I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. The DMG makes it absolutely clear — when you enter a PrC, you are no longer part of the original class — you're now multi-classed. You are no longer advancing as anything other than the PrC you're in.

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 04:18 PM
This doesn't logically follow. You aren't advancing as a druid — you're advancing as a LoT. You've multi-classed. Note the fact that you don't receive any of the other benefits of the original druid class —*that's because you're no longer a druid.

That means that your spells aren't necessarily deriving from any source other than Talisid (or, at the very least, the spells gained under the PrC). One could make the argument, but there's no evidence to suggest that that is correct.



It does? It specifically states that some cleric/rangers take the PrC. That's an unusual start to progressing your druidic abilities. If the designers were totally focused on druids, they'd have made one of the requirements the ability to speak Druidic, like FL.



I'm sorry, but that's just not correct. The DMG makes it absolutely clear — when you enter a PrC, you are no longer part of the original class — you're now multi-classed. You are no longer advancing as anything other than the PrC you're in.

Meh, I guess the main problem is that I hate most PrC fluff. It just doesn't make sense to me why every other straight druid in the world would be getting their spells from nature - in fact there is no other way to get it. But all of a sudden you decide to take this PrC and you're an exception to every rule that governs druid spellcasting, and you are somehow getting druid spells from a god when every other divine class grants some form of cleric spellcasting. Plus this requires my character to actually be aware of the difference in classes and the fact that there's a breaking point right there, which is unacceptable metagaming as far as I'm concerned. In-universe, there is absolutely no logical reason why my character would be aware that there's a difference between the spells he's getting from his druid levels and the spells that he's getting from his LoT levels.

Eh, this is why I ignore most of their fluff - it just doesn't make sense unless you assume that the characters know the rulebooks. I know what the rulebooks say, I'm just saying there's no way to make any sense out of it without creating an inconsistent mess of a gameworld.

The Dark Fiddler
2011-02-22, 04:30 PM
Meh, I guess the main problem is that I hate most PrC fluff. It just doesn't make sense to me why every other straight druid in the world would be getting their spells from nature - in fact there is no other way to get it. But all of a sudden you decide to take this PrC and you're an exception to every rule that governs druid spellcasting, and you are somehow getting druid spells from a god when every other divine class grants some form of cleric spellcasting. Plus this requires my character to actually be aware of the difference in classes and the fact that there's a breaking point right there, which is unacceptable metagaming as far as I'm concerned. In-universe, there is absolutely no logical reason why my character would be aware that there's a difference between the spells he's getting from his druid levels and the spells that he's getting from his LoT levels.

I don't follow. You're the only member of the sect this PrC represents in the entire world, and your character can't tell or consciously decide to draw power from his deity a bit more than nature himself? I don't really see why it would require any metagaming, and even if you were the only druid to do this... I don't see the problem in that. Everyone does things their own way, you know?


Eh, this is why I ignore most of their fluff - it just doesn't make sense unless you assume that the characters know the rulebooks. I know what the rulebooks say, I'm just saying there's no way to make any sense out of it without creating an inconsistent mess of a gameworld.

I'll agree that a lot of the fluff is so-so at best, though not for the same reason. If you've got the time, would you mind giving a few more examples? I enjoy thinking over this stuff, personally.

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 06:22 PM
I don't follow. You're the only member of the sect this PrC represents in the entire world, and your character can't tell or consciously decide to draw power from his deity a bit more than nature himself? I don't really see why it would require any metagaming, and even if you were the only druid to do this... I don't see the problem in that. Everyone does things their own way, you know?



I'll agree that a lot of the fluff is so-so at best, though not for the same reason. If you've got the time, would you mind giving a few more examples? I enjoy thinking over this stuff, personally.

The main issue is that, as far as I can tell, the spell levels and animal companion abilities are more logically connected to the previous druid stuff than to the other special abilities. The only real connection in-universe between, say, the lion's courage special ability and the new spellcasting level is that they happen to have been achieved at the same time. My character doesn't know that their abilities come in these funny packages called "class levels." So, in-universe, all of a sudden you lose half your spellcasting abilities but not the other half? That just stretches it too far for me. Especially since, if they're the same spells, it wouldn't make sense for me to be preparing the spells from two different sources.

Frozen_Feet
2011-02-22, 06:40 PM
Skillpoints and base attack bonus.

How does that work in-universe, anyway? You lose some of your spellcasting abilities, but you don't lose other spellcasting abilities that are the exact same abilities but lower level? Your companion actually loses hit points because your alignment changes? Just trying to figure out how this would roleplay out in a game world without giving the characters an explicit knowledge of how many levels they have and in what.

Think of it as a curse bestowed on you for violating your oath to a god. Just like all other curses, it doesn't necessarily remove all your ability, but does place some restrictions.

There. No more ruminating of where your spells come from. :smallwink:

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-22, 06:42 PM
A basic Druid shows his devotion to Nature, and gains his powers from (in many cases, but not all) the very essense of Nature itself.

Some Clerics might do the same... worshipping the very essense of Nature itself and gaining powers (though different from a Druid's) therefrom.

Some Druids, on the other hand, might show devotion towards a deity who represents a certain aspect of Nature... and thus gain abilities that other Druids do not. But, because their devotion is towards only that deity and that aspect of Nature, they do not gain some of the powers that a more generalist Druid does.

I'm not sure where you read that a Druid's powers can only come from a generic devotion to Nature, and not a devotion to a Nature-aspected diety.

After all, a Cleric's powers can come from devotion to an idea/ideal, rather than devotion to a diety.

WarKitty
2011-02-22, 06:56 PM
A basic Druid shows his devotion to Nature, and gains his powers from (in many cases, but not all) the very essense of Nature itself.

Some Clerics might do the same... worshipping the very essense of Nature itself and gaining powers (though different from a Druid's) therefrom.

Some Druids, on the other hand, might show devotion towards a deity who represents a certain aspect of Nature... and thus gain abilities that other Druids do not. But, because their devotion is towards only that deity and that aspect of Nature, they do not gain some of the powers that a more generalist Druid does.

I'm not sure where you read that a Druid's powers can only come from a generic devotion to Nature, and not a devotion to a Nature-aspected diety.

After all, a Cleric's powers can come from devotion to an idea/ideal, rather than devotion to a diety.

Huh. It does say that a druid can worship a nature deity and get spells from them. Could have sworn the druid entry said you had to worship nature. Still, I guess it's the same issue that you have with clerics of what happens when you convert - especially since in this case I have a character that started out with a devotion to nature and gradually picked up devotion to a deity.

It's more that if you follow that line out, for the build I posted, you are getting 3 level 3 spells from nature or whatever deity you worshiped before, and 1 level 3 spell from Talisid. Except they're the exact same slots. It's just too level-oriented for my tastes.

The Cat Goddess
2011-02-22, 07:02 PM
Huh. It does say that a druid can worship a nature deity and get spells from them. Could have sworn the druid entry said you had to worship nature. Still, I guess it's the same issue that you have with clerics of what happens when you convert - especially since in this case I have a character that started out with a devotion to nature and gradually picked up devotion to a deity.

It's more that if you follow that line out, for the build I posted, you are getting 3 level 3 spells from nature or whatever deity you worshiped before, and 1 level 3 spell from Talisid. Except they're the exact same slots. It's just too level-oriented for my tastes.

In the case of a PrC like this... it's not that your character now gets all his powers from Talisid.

It's more like, you gained powers from devotion to Nature... then, upon being introduced to a new path, Talisid supplimented your existing powers. When you turned (or were pulled) away from Talisid's path/teachings, you lost that connection and those extra abilities. If you Atone, Talisid will welcome you back and restore that connection.

tyckspoon
2011-02-22, 07:07 PM
And I don't see anything in Complete Warrior which would suggest that the intent or the wording on p.16 don't apply to all PrCs. To view it otherwise reflects an exceptionally selective reading.

It doesn't apply to all PrCs because it doesn't *say* it does. If something is going to change material from the Core books, it has to explicitly say "this is the new rule for everything", the way the Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and Rules Compendium do for the material reprinted there. And generally that rule will be repeated in all other books that have relevant material (see: Swift/Immediate action explanations and the Polymorph Subschool) because the writers cannot assume you are playing with any other book other than Core and the one splat you happen to be reading. And.. well, there are PrCs in plenty of other books, each of which has a section explaining what PrCs are, and none of those other books besides CArc and CWar has that particular text regarding what happens when you lose prerequisites. So it's not a universal thing.

CapnVan
2011-02-23, 09:28 AM
And that would be what is referred to as an exceptionally selective reading.

The text itself is quite clear.

Your assumption is that, because the language isn't included in other books, the designers intended for the language in CW and CAdv to apply only to those books, and none of the others, but didn't make that unusual decision explicit.

And your thinking is that that ridiculously convoluted design decision makes more sense than simply that it was cut for space, forgotten for other books, or simply assumed that it was understood?

GeminiVeil
2011-02-23, 11:10 AM
It doesn't apply to all PrCs because it doesn't *say* it does. If something is going to change material from the Core books, it has to explicitly say "this is the new rule for everything", the way the Magic Item Compendium, Spell Compendium, and Rules Compendium do for the material reprinted there. And generally that rule will be repeated in all other books that have relevant material (see: Swift/Immediate action explanations and the Polymorph Subschool) because the writers cannot assume you are playing with any other book other than Core and the one splat you happen to be reading. And.. well, there are PrCs in plenty of other books, each of which has a section explaining what PrCs are, and none of those other books besides CArc and CWar has that particular text regarding what happens when you lose prerequisites. So it's not a universal thing.

Except that goes against what the general stance by WotC, which is if there is a dispute between a later book, the core 3 are supposed to take precidence. So even though, for example, Rules Compendium changes some rules, by the stance of WotC, if it directly contradicts anything in the DMG, PHB or MM, then the core book wins the argument.
In the instance of the PrC question, there is no ruling made in those 3 core books on the matter, so neither CompArc or CompWar conflicts with wording from either of these sources.
I also don't see why the text explicitly has to state something like "this applies to all PrC's ever made, not just the ones in this book." They coulds also be assuming that "Well, we've designed this game to have 5 people, 4 at the minimum. If everyone had just 2 books, then chances are good they would have one of these books that go in depth about X."
I just don't see anything in any other book that contradicts what CompWar and CompArc say, except very specific PrC's that would lose their abilities, and all of those that I found, IMHO, have conditional requirements that if taken as they are stated don't affect the issue. Such as the Dragon Disciple that is so oft mentioned. It says cannoth already be a dragon. (or language similar) Now, taken literally, that means BEFORE entry, you cannot be one. Says nothing specifically one way or another about after.
All above is just my opinion. :smallsmile: