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View Full Version : [D&D] Parry, iterative attacks alternative rules



Mastikator
2011-02-22, 05:18 PM
One thing that bothers me in D&D is that you can't actively parry attacks. (Unless you have the Deflect Arrow feat, then you can parry one projectile per round)

One other thing that bothers me in D&D is that you can either make multiple attacks while standing still, or make a singular attack and move, you can't attack in between movements and you can't move a little and attack a little. (at least not without Pounce shenanigans)

So I am here to think out two alternative rules to mend these problems.

Effective Base Attack Bonus
Or rather, a small change that makes a big difference.
Basically it's like this, any attack, be it full or simple always costs a Standard Action (but not AOO).

Revision, you don't lose Effective BAB when you move. Unless you attack, then move, then attack, upon which you lose 1* EBAB/5 feet.
If you attack then move then attack multiple times then the amount of EBAB you lose increases by 1 each time.

The meta-game effect of this is that overall martial classes are empowered and martial combat is made more dynamic (and thus, I predict, more fun).

Feat alterations:
Spring Attack, You don't lose EBAB when moving.


Active Parry
Active parry is very simple, you declare that one or many of the attacks you get in a full round attack are Parry Attacks, when someone attempts to make a melee attack (but not touch attack) against you, you get to make a counter-attack, if your attack roll is equal higher than your opponents the attack is deflected, if you're not using a special parry weapon then the weapon may be damaged, roll damage as per normal but the damage is applied to the weapon (like Sunder).
You may also deflect projectiles if you have the feat Deflect Arrow.
You may also use a shield (but not buckler if you are using it in combination with a two-handed weapon) to parry with, the shield is counted as a second weapon (as per two weapon fighting) but you don't take two weapon fighting penalties (only if you're proficient with the shield), and you add the shield AC bonus to the attack roll. If you use a shield to parry the shield bonus is not added to your normal AC, and you can only parry with a shield once (unless you declare that the shield is your main weapon, then you may use iterative attacks)
When fighting defensively you don't get the negative penalty to attack that are used for parrying.

When a critical hit is done, you add the threat roll + confirm roll as the total attack roll, even if the target is immune to critical hits. (for example, you roll 20 with your great axe against a golem, and then roll 17, it counts as a roll of 37 for purpose of parry)

You can't parry when flat-footed, or unable to attack.

For example, a 6th level fighter (str 16, +1 longsword) with improved parry is attacked by a 4th level fighter (14 str, +1 shortsword), the attacker rolls 16 (+4+2+1 = 23), he beats the 6th fighter's AC,
he may take the hit or give up his own attack to parry, he parrys, rolls 14 (+3+6+1 = 24) and the attack is parried.

Another example, a 14th level monk has Parry Ranged Touch, a 9th level wizard cast's Empowered Scorching Ray (for 21 & 19 damage per ray respectively) the wizard has a bab of 4 but also casted True Strike before the Emp. S. Ray, so he rolls 7, +4 bab and +20 TS = 31. The monk uses flurry to deflect both rays (which need separate rolls), rolls 17 on the first and 4 on the second, with a bab at +10 and misc mods at +6 (greater heroism + bull strength), the first parry gets 17 + 10 + 6 = 33, the ray is parried, the second deflect is 4 + 10 + 6 = 20 and thus not parried.


Special parry weapons are the following:
Longsword,
Shortsword,
Greatsword,
Falchion,
Spear,
Longspear,
Quarterstaff,
Dagger (not punching),
Two bladed sword,
Flail,
Dire Flail,
Nun-chucks,
Monk unarmed strike

Feat stuff
New feats:
Improved Parry
Prereq: Expertise
Benefit: you can parry attacks without having to declare them, as long as you're not flat-footed, paralyzed or otherwise unable to react to the attack.
Special: fighter bonus feat

Improved Shield Parry
Prereq: Improved Parry, BAB +5
Benefit: You may parry with a shield a second time at a -5 penalty on the parry roll
Special: fighter bonus feat

Deflect touch
Prereq: Improved Parry, BAB +4
Benefit: You may parry touch attacks made against you, if the attacker is using a touch based spell it's not discharged
Special: fighter bonus feat, monks may select this feat at level 6 as a bonus feat without meeting the prereqs.

Deflect ranged touch
Prereq: Deflect arrows, Deflect touch, BAB +8
Benefit: You may parry ranged touch attacks made against you,
Special: fighter bonus feat

Meta game analysis: martial combat is more dynamic and interesting, and martial classes have a smidgeon of hope against at least a small section of spells cast against them, thus empowering martial classes.




I need someone to make an appraise check on these. Gimme comments

arguskos
2011-02-22, 05:31 PM
Effective BAB: I dislike it. The intention is good, no denying that, but the mechanic of "move and lose attacks" kinda sucks. Just make full-attacks take a standard, instead of a full, action and we're set. It's really not damaging to game balance.

Parry: Functional, but sticky. Not my favorite, though it works decently (at least, I see no massive glaring mechanical defects, ergo it's probably fine or very close to it). If you'd like some Parry-related reading material, may I suggest Rizban's excellent Parry (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136100) mechanic? He gets around the "actions" issue with Parry by making it a combat option (similar to Bull Rush or Trip) that only functions on AoOs. This makes it very useful, IMO. Of course, this is just a suggestion. If you'd rather stick with your system (a fine decision, by the by), I suggest you at least consider making the actions similar for your system. As is, it's a little annoying to declare parries.

Mulletmanalive
2011-02-22, 05:38 PM
I say this every time it comes up:

Opposed rolls are slow and unreliable. They have never, in any system, made the game more fun to play, unless dice are the primary joy of your life.

I've tried it, I've played about a dozen systems where it's used. The revised rules always replace the defence roll with a static value...for good reason. Much quicker = more fun.

IcarusWings
2011-02-22, 06:10 PM
Another problem I can see with Effective Base Attack Bonus is that moving doesn't just remove attacks, it stops you from hitting anything. With EBAB, making a normal Move Action (30ft usually) reduces your BAB by 12, which means that you're not going to hit anything anytime soon. This seems to make the stay stationary or be ineffective problem much worse, as before you could still get one hit even if you moved, but with this if you move anything more than a 10ft step (which I'm pretty sure you can get along with a Full Attack normally with feat expenditure, don't quote me on that though) then you don't have much of a chance of hitting at all.

arguskos
2011-02-22, 06:11 PM
Another problem I can see with Effective Base Attack Bonus is that moving doesn't just remove attacks, it stops you from hitting anything. With EBAB, making a normal Move Action (30ft usually) reduces your BAB by 12, which means that you're not going to hit anything anytime soon. This seems to make the stay stationary or be ineffective problem much worse, as before you could still get one hit even if you moved, but with this if you move anything more than a 10ft step (which I'm pretty sure you can get along with a Full Attack normally with feat expenditure, don't quote me on that though) then you don't have much of a chance of hitting at all.
Best method for a 10-ft step:
-Tumble DC 40
-Sparring Dummy of the Master

Neither requires a feat.

Mastikator
2011-02-22, 06:26 PM
Interesting and valid points.
I've made changes to the first rule. I'm still not convinced static-value-only defense is more fun than active defense since it feels less arbitrary (and if you choose not to parry then nothing changes).

Epsilon Rose
2011-02-22, 06:29 PM
Why can't you use a buckler to parry? It seems like it would be more effective than almost any other type of shield, especially something like, say, a tower shield.

Mastikator
2011-02-22, 06:33 PM
Good point, the reason I figured that a buckler wouldn't be used to parry is because you only choose a buckler over a large shield when you're using a two-handed weapon and can't use the large shield. In which case you can't parry since the hand used to parry the attack is already used. But that should only apply when you're actually doing that. So I changed it.

Epsilon Rose
2011-02-22, 07:56 PM
In that light it might make sense to make it a parry weapon or give some kind of bonus so you have a reason to use it instead of a larger shield.

Land Outcast
2011-02-22, 08:05 PM
Hadn't ever thought about the movment thing from that perspective (but again, I modified Spring attack, and now my group's version is far more powerfult than normal...).

On the parry issue I took it a similar way, just that shields don't ever add to your AC. Why have a shield then? they grant a free parry attempt per round at your highest attack bonus (plus the shield bonus).

And the mechanic without shield: forefit attacks from a full attack, or the normal single attack. Then you have parry attempts at the same bonus the attrack you forefitted woulf have had.
You can parry any ranged or melee attack, but they need to be the immediate next attacks.
If you have a shield you've got a shield bonus to the parry.