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JellyPooga
2006-09-15, 08:37 AM
These guys rock! They are, to me, everything good about being a Paladin. It's just a shame that they have to be LG (IMO).

However, I noticed something about the class that didn't seem right. If an Inquisitor takes levels of Blackguard, his inquisitor levels stack with his paladin levels for the purposes of determining his extra abilities. However, an Inquisitor doesn't lose any of his class abilities for losing LG.

For Example: Paladin 4 / Rogue 2 goes Shadowbane for 10 levels. At Level 17, he takes Blackguard, losing the abilities from his 4 levels of Paladin, but keeps his 10 levels of Shadowbane. Looking up the table of extra Blackguard abilities, he counts as having 14 levels of Paladin. This means that he immediately gets an additional 4 levels of Blackguard (swapping out the Paladin Levels), putting him at Blackguard 5 and also gets all the abilities of a level 10 Paladin going Blackguard (Undead companion, Smite good +/day, Lay on hands, etc.). In addition, he keeps all of his Shadowbane abilities.

I hope the above made sense and would ask if someone could either clarify my mistakes or confirm my suspicions. If the above is true, Shadowbane Blackguards are far better than Paladin ones (And you just have to love the imagery of this ultra-evil dude with black armour and a spiky sword calling light and denouncing obviously good people in the name of right)

Skyserpent
2006-09-15, 12:33 PM
You just made the BBEG for my campaign.

Thank you.

JellyPooga
2006-09-15, 12:36 PM
Not a problem! ;D

Telonius
2006-09-15, 01:04 PM
He sounds like the cleric guy from Goblins. ;D

Jack Mann
2006-09-15, 01:09 PM
He sounds like the cleric guy from Goblins. *;D

You mean the dwarven paladin, surely.

Telonius
2006-09-15, 01:23 PM
You mean the dwarven paladin, surely.
Was he a Paladin? For some reason I thought Cleric... But yeah, him.

Luircin
2006-09-15, 10:46 PM
As far as I know, except in special cases like the ur-priest, you lose all the abilites from a PrC except HP, BAB, and Saves if you ever stop meeting the prerequisites, like alignment.

Dhavaer
2006-09-15, 10:55 PM
As far as I know, except in special cases like the ur-priest, you lose all the abilites from a PrC except HP, BAB, and Saves if you ever stop meeting the prerequisites, like alignment.


Shadowbane Inquisitors are set up to be really powerful Blackguards, and retain all abilities despite any alignment changes.

Hallavast
2006-09-16, 02:41 AM
Hmm.. so you could end up being a chaotic good paladin/blackguard/Inquisitor at no penalty and can smite anything you feel like...nice.

Dhavaer
2006-09-16, 02:44 AM
You'd still lose the Paladin and Blackgaurd abilities for being Chaotic Good. The Inquisitor abilities would be retained, though.

TheOOB
2006-09-16, 03:09 AM
Upon losing the paladin abilities, however, you'd lose the shadowbane inquisitor abilities, as you no longer meet the detect evil and turn undead requirements.

Whenever you fail to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class you lose all abilities from that class except for BAB, Base Saves, Hit Points, and Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

Dhavaer
2006-09-16, 03:17 AM
Upon losing the paladin abilities, however, you'd lose the shadowbane inquisitor abilities, as you no longer meet the detect evil and turn undead requirements.

Whenever you fail to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class you lose all abilities from that class except for BAB, Base Saves, Hit Points, and Weapon and Armor Proficiencies


That seems... unreasonable, as the class is intended to synergise well with Blackguard.

TheOOB
2006-09-16, 03:20 AM
It is possible my knowledge is flawed, as hard as it is to accept I can be wrong :P

Now that I think about it, that ruling on PrCs I think I found in the 3.0 FAQ awhile ago, I'm not sure if I've seen anything 3.5 concerning this.

Zincorium
2006-09-16, 03:24 AM
It is possible my knowledge is flawed, as hard as it is to accept I can be wrong :P

Now that I think about it, that ruling on PrCs I think I found in the 3.0 FAQ awhile ago, I'm not sure if I've seen anything 3.5 concerning this.

It's been a real pain my side, personally. This kind of thing should be spelled out in big, bold text or it's own sidebar at the beginning of the DMG section on PRCs. That there is no easy to find ruling in the books, SRD, or 3.5 FAQ, I see it as a big WOTC failure to support the game, considering that it's not all that hard to lose the prerequisites for many PrCs.

Nerd-o-rama
2006-09-16, 03:27 AM
I believe the consensus on PrC prerequisites is either that you need them a) to take the first level of the PrC or b) to take a new level of the PrC; unless specifically stated, you don't immediately lose your PrC class abilities just because you no longer meet the prerequisites.

This is unlike feats, which you lose immediately for as long as you don't meet the requirements, and Paladin class abilities, which you lose when you turn Evil, commit an outright Evil act, or "grossly violate your code of conduct."

Closet_Skeleton
2006-09-16, 07:20 AM
However, I noticed something about the class that didn't seem right. If an Inquisitor takes levels of Blackguard, his inquisitor levels stack with his paladin levels for the purposes of determining his extra abilities. However, an Inquisitor doesn't lose any of his class abilities for losing LG.

For Example: Paladin 4 / Rogue 2 goes Shadowbane for 10 levels. At Level 17, he takes Blackguard, losing the abilities from his 4 levels of Paladin, but keeps his 10 levels of Shadowbane. Looking up the table of extra Blackguard abilities, he counts as having 14 levels of Paladin. This means that he immediately gets an additional 4 levels of Blackguard (swapping out the Paladin Levels), putting him at Blackguard 5 and also gets all the abilities of a level 10 Paladin going Blackguard (Undead companion, Smite good +/day, Lay on hands, etc.). In addition, he keeps all of his Shadowbane abilities.

I hope the above made sense and would ask if someone could either clarify my mistakes or confirm my suspicions. If the above is true, Shadowbane Blackguards are far better than Paladin ones (And you just have to love the imagery of this ultra-evil dude with black armour and a spiky sword calling light and denouncing obviously good people in the name of right)

You're forgetting something. A Paladin 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10 cannot become a Blackguard 10. He can't swap out so many paladin levels that he would no longer qualify for Blackguard.

Unless you go into epic of course, but then you're supposed to be powerful.

Sir_Banjo
2006-09-16, 07:32 AM
Hmm.. so you could end up being a chaotic good paladin/blackguard/Inquisitor at no penalty and can smite anything you feel like...nice.

The shadowbane inquisitor is a blantant "rip-off" of the 40k universe, not that GW can take the high ground. The gritty and above all, morally grey (ie. ends justify the means) take is more at home there than in the largely cheery D&D ruleset. I cannot understand, within the bounds of how the alignment system is usually presented, why this was ever included in the game. Does anyone else see the conflict here?

Still, it does have a powerful suite of abilities.

Dhavaer
2006-09-16, 07:42 AM
The shadowbane inquisitor is a blantant "rip-off" of the 40k universe, not that GW can take the high ground. The gritty and above all, morally grey (ie. ends justify the means) take is more at home there than in the largely cheery D&D ruleset. I cannot understand, within the bounds of how the alignment system is usually presented, why this was ever included in the game. Does anyone else see the conflict here?

Yes. The 'evil in the name of good' idea doesn't fit with a 'verse that has Detect Evil.

JellyPooga
2006-09-16, 11:05 AM
Upon losing the paladin abilities, however, you'd lose the shadowbane inquisitor abilities, as you no longer meet the detect evil and turn undead requirements.

Whenever you fail to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class you lose all abilities from that class except for BAB, Base Saves, Hit Points, and Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

It's kind of implied that you keep Shadowbane abilities regardless of entry requirements (though admittedly it doesn't say so specifically). Otherwise, it would be almost impossible to keep the Shadowbane abilities. Any Paladin/Shadowbane would lose all abilities regardless of what alignment they changed to. Most Cleric/Shadowbane would too...but not all.

...hmmm, maybe that's where the discrepancy comes in though...going Blackguard would make you lose the Shadowbane abilities, therefore, to replace them, you use the 'extra Blackguard abilities' table for Pallys....yep. that's it. Thank-you. I thought it was a bit too powerful keeping all the Shadowbane abilities whilst getting extras for Blackguard.

So basically, going Pally/Shadowbane/Blackguard results in the same as going straight Pally/Blackguard (but for skills). If anything it's worse, because Shadowbanes get Improved sunder as a class feat, which is one of the requisites of Blacky, so as soon as they take Blacky, they lose all abilities of all their classes untill thy can pick up Imp Sunder again..........wow. that's naf.

Cleric/Shadowbane is the only way to keep Shadowbane abilities at alignment other than LG, and only if you stay within one step (alignment wise) of your deity.

If there was a way to get Turn Undead and Detect Evil back though...nah, you have to be evil for Blackguard..oh well, it was just a thought.

That's a crying shame though - I liked the idea of the misguided Shadowbane Inquisitor using his Detect Good, thinking it was Detect Evil and then using what are blatently evil powers to everyone else but he just doesn't realise what he's doing or see that they're evil.


The shadowbane inquisitor is a blantant "rip-off" of the 40k universe, not that GW can take the high ground. The gritty and above all, morally grey (ie. ends justify the means) take is more at home there than in the largely cheery D&D ruleset. I cannot understand, within the bounds of how the alignment system is usually presented, why this was ever included in the game. Does anyone else see the conflict here

Umm..no, I don't. I don't see why you think that the Shadowbane is a rip-off of the 40K universe either. Could you expand?

Umbral_Arcanist
2006-09-16, 11:43 AM
Upon losing the paladin abilities, however, you'd lose the shadowbane inquisitor abilities, as you no longer meet the detect evil and turn undead requirements.

Whenever you fail to meet the prerequisites for a prestige class you lose all abilities from that class except for BAB, Base Saves, Hit Points, and Weapon and Armor Proficiencies

Except the class has an ability (absolute conviction i think) that prevents that. it's an exception i believe

JellyPooga
2006-09-16, 11:51 AM
Absolute Conviction only applies to alignment change. If he loses Turn Undead or Detect Evil, he loses the class abilities.

I think it was supposed to be implied that he never loses class abilities due to not meeting the requirements, but RAW, only a Cleric/Shadowbane who changes to an alignment that is still acceptable for his/her deity keeps their abilities. Paladin/Shadowbanes always lose their abilities upon changing alignment because they lose their Detect Evil and Turn Undead Paladin class features.

Rigeld2
2006-09-16, 12:50 PM
Not meeting a prereq is not justification for losing class abilities.

Look at the Ur-Priest.

Sir_Banjo
2006-09-17, 08:34 PM
Umm..no, I don't. I don't see why you think that the Shadowbane is a rip-off of the 40K universe either. Could you expand?

The idea has more or less been lifted from their setting. Look at the picture, it's about as similiar to power armour as you can get without infringing copyright. The same could be said for the sword, which does look cool. And they prowl the dark places, searching for secret heresies? Sounds like 40k to me. If you want to play a "historical" (this term should be taken very lightly) inquisitor, ie. one who travels from town to town exorcising demons and burning peasents, then the Church Inquisitor is much more appropriate

Doresain
2007-10-17, 02:23 PM
you gotta think about it, all of this is at the DM's discretion...

Doresain
2007-10-17, 02:25 PM
You're forgetting something. A Paladin 5/Shadowbane Inquisitor 10 cannot become a Blackguard 10. He can't swap out so many paladin levels that he would no longer qualify for Blackguard.

Unless you go into epic of course, but then you're supposed to be powerful.

and you don't have to be a paladin in order to be a blackguard...you just get extra abilities for being a pally

Anxe
2007-10-17, 05:33 PM
I love that trick. It gives almost all your levels in PrCs. And one of them is a Paladin Assassin class! But you'll usually not get it past a DM. You'd have to trade in the last viable level that you got for the trade, that being your Shadowbane levels.

SurlySeraph
2007-10-17, 06:22 PM
The idea has more or less been lifted from their setting. Look at the picture, it's about as similiar to power armour as you can get without infringing copyright. The same could be said for the sword, which does look cool. And they prowl the dark places, searching for secret heresies? Sounds like 40k to me. If you want to play a "historical" (this term should be taken very lightly) inquisitor, ie. one who travels from town to town exorcising demons and burning peasents, then the Church Inquisitor is much more appropriate

40K definitely does not have a monopoly on Inquisitors looking for heretics. Looking for heretics was, historically, the main activity of inquisitors. The Spanish Inquistion was created to find people who were secretly non-Catholic. And 40K does not have a monopoly on moral ambiguity. Just because there's more dark and gritty stuff in 40K doesn't mean any dark and gritty stuff in DnD is a ripoff. As for the sword and armor... they're swords and armor. There are only so many possible variations in their appearance.

Doresain
2007-10-17, 09:12 PM
40K definitely does not have a monopoly on Inquisitors looking for heretics. Looking for heretics was, historically, the main activity of inquisitors. The Spanish Inquistion was created to find people who were secretly non-Catholic. And 40K does not have a monopoly on moral ambiguity. Just because there's more dark and gritty stuff in 40K doesn't mean any dark and gritty stuff in DnD is a ripoff. As for the sword and armor... they're swords and armor. There are only so many possible variations in their appearance.

yes but in a gaming sense, 40K got to it first

DraPrime
2007-10-17, 09:36 PM
You just made the BBEG for my campaign.

Thank you.

You're not the only one. Thank you!

SadisticFishing
2007-10-17, 09:56 PM
That seems... unreasonable, as the class is intended to synergise well with Blackguard.

Haha, no, they're supposed to replace them, for LG.

Doresain
2007-10-18, 01:15 PM
You just made the BBEG for my campaign.

Thank you.

heck you just made my next character

Octavius
2008-05-22, 11:33 PM
In case you were wondering why the Shadowbane Blackguard is more powerful is because the higher you are the farther you fall Lucifer is such an example Gods chosen can become quite evil when they are cast down.

Octavius
2008-05-22, 11:42 PM
In case you were wondering why the Shadowbane Blackguard is more powerful is because the higher you are the farther you fall Lucifer is such an example Gods chosen can become quite evil when they are cast down. “Great men are not always wise”