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View Full Version : Do Stun and Prone Characters get a Reflex save?



Sims
2011-02-22, 09:33 PM
That always bothered me. I would think if you were tripped you should at least get a penalty. And stun is more extreme. What gives?

RTGoodman
2011-02-22, 10:06 PM
By the Rules as Written, yes, they get a Reflex save. While prone you can always roll away, get your cloak in front of the fireball, or whatever else you do when you succeed on a Reflex save. Reflex while stunned is harder to explain, but it's still technically allowed.

JaronK
2011-02-22, 10:08 PM
Also, being prone could just as reasonably help... when you're prone, you're harder to hit and better protected from explosions in the first place, so it's more like starting halfway through the save!

The stunned thing is weird though.

JaronK

tyckspoon
2011-02-22, 10:12 PM
Stunned removes Dex to AC; that could reasonably be extended to removing Dex to Reflex as well, which would at least help reflect that your ability to take an active protection is removed.

Chuckthedwarf
2011-02-22, 10:20 PM
That always bothered me. I would think if you were tripped you should at least get a penalty. And stun is more extreme. What gives?

Being prone doesn't necessarily mean being tripped.

And yes, being prone is both realistically - and mechanically advantageous in some cases. There's a reason you get extra AC against ranged attacks when you're prone - you're much less of a target.

As for being stunned, I don't know. Clearly it doesn't make you completely defenseless, i.e. helpless, so having a reflex save is reasonable enough. Whether some kind of penalty should be involved is a whole different discussion - I'd frankly rule that whenever Dexterity is denied to armor, it's denied to reflex. I mean, if you can't duck a blow well when you're surprised or in a sticky situation, why should you be able to duck a fireball as well as usual?

On the other hand, this could be pretty limiting to some classes.

Shade Kerrin
2011-02-22, 11:40 PM
I'll say my part on the Dex/Reflex business:

The official definition of a reflex is a reaction made without the need to be processed by your brain, and unlike other things the mechanics of Reflex saves actually support this. You are just as good at dodging fireballs when flat-footed as when not because you are instinctively reacting to the heat of the blast, which has nothing to do with how combat ready you are.

As to Stunning, let's review the chain.

Dazed, the weakest. Something is too distracting for you to actually pay attention to combat.
Paralyzed, the strongest. Your body loses all ability to actually act. As such, you are pretty much helpless.
Stunned is the middle ground between these. Typical causes involve being knocked silly(i.e Stunning fist). As such, it pretty much means you are no longer in a state that your mind can actually control your body. As stated above, though, typical reflexes involve no actual input from the mind, and so have no consequential penalty.

my 2 cents

Lord_Gareth
2011-02-22, 11:42 PM
Alternately, the stunned character simply transports himself into roguespace.

John Campbell
2011-02-23, 03:17 AM
AFAICT, you still get a Reflex save while unconscious, though you're at a massive penalty due to having an effective 0 Dex.

Popertop
2011-02-23, 03:46 AM
I think a minus two penalty wouldn't be that unreasonable for a stunned character making a reflex save.

Outright denying dex to reflex when flatfooted seems a little harsh.

Saint GoH
2011-02-23, 04:41 AM
My two cents? Prone? Possibly. Stunned? Heck no.

Yes, a reflex is something your body does instinctively with little to no reaction from your brain. However, when stunned you are effectively just a warm body.


A stunned creature drops everything held, can’t take actions, takes a -2 penalty to AC, and loses his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any).

And I know there is the whole 'realism shouldn't be in teh realm of D&D', but when someone hits you hard enough to make you drop everything you are holding, stand completely off the balls of your feet, and be unable to so much as move your hand from chest to waist (equivalent of a quick draw swift action), I sincerely doubt you have the presence of mind to duck.

faceroll
2011-02-23, 04:53 AM
Being prone means about half your body is shielded from whatever is blowing up.

Runestar
2011-02-23, 06:15 AM
They still get reflex saves, though evasion is disabled.

This is covered in the 3.5 FAQ. I don't have access to it at the moment though, anyone care to quote the relevant article?

DwarfFighter
2011-02-23, 07:16 AM
Are there any guidelines as to situational modifiers to saves? Magic adds all manner of bonuses and penalties, but other than that...?

-DF

Yuki Akuma
2011-02-23, 08:04 AM
All creatures get a Reflex save. Always. Even if they can't move.

Reflex is not just getting out of the way. Saving throws also represent luck. If you roll a Reflex save while paralysed, it means that whatever forced the save managed to be weaker where you were laying paralysed. This is also how Evasion works - you took no damage because the portion of the fireball you contorted yourself into happened to not be particularly hot.

This is not my interpretation. This is actually RAW. I just don't remember which book...

Person_Man
2011-02-23, 08:30 AM
Yes, you do. You even get one if you are Helpless. If you house rule differently, you are drastically increasing the power of Stun and/or Prone and Reflex Save effects (usually magic), and weakening everyone else's defenses - especially Skill Monkey's who are otherwise very difficult to hurt with Reflex Save effects. Since Skill Monkey's are already the weakest group in D&D, I see no reason to nerf them more.