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No brains
2011-02-24, 05:25 PM
I thought of a fun way to get rid of that silly 'balance' that comes with playing a monster with racial HD.:smallsmile:

See, dying is not that bad, particularly at low levels. If you wanted to play a bugbear, you can go out and get killed (assuming reasonable backup) to slash those useless levels keeping you from being a functional hobgoblin with +4 str. The only problem is that a racial level is your first level so probably can't cut it out, but 1 dead level is much better than three. This is particularly so if you use LA buyoff rules.:smallwink:

Another way that gets around the first Hit Die problem is to play a lycanthrope and to shave your furry's hit dice all away. There is text in the lycanthrope entry that specifies "...Animal is never its first Hit Die...". This seemingly arbitrary ruling, put in place to keep you from buying 4 ranks in listen, allows those brave enough to skirt death the power to get DR and alternate forms without any level baggage!:smallcool:

Please tell me where I stand on the brilliant/insane/stupid grid. I fell down laughing and I can't see the lines between them all...:smallbiggrin:

Kylarra
2011-02-24, 05:38 PM
It's commonly toted, but the easier way is to just get negative levels and fail the save so they become permanent.

No brains
2011-02-24, 05:41 PM
Can doing it this way trim away that ugly 'first' hit die?

Kylarra
2011-02-24, 05:48 PM
Generally speaking I don't think so.

Waker
2011-02-24, 05:54 PM
This again?

A monster character may not multiclass until it completes the full progression in its monster class. This rule keeps characters from gaining the benefits of a monster’s type and then quickly switching to a standard class.
Quote from Savage Species, pg 152. Cutting out the RHD of a creature with negative levels doesn't work. You can lose them, but then you have to regain them via leveling again. Simply put, if you have RHD you can't replace them.

Kylarra
2011-02-24, 05:58 PM
The counter to that is the fact that the wizards website has/had so-called savage progressions that did not require you to take all the levels in them, so it's not as cut and dry as you might think.

I personally don't like the idea of doing it, but that's true of many RAW things for me.

Waker
2011-02-24, 05:59 PM
The counter to that is the fact that the wizards website has/had so-called savage progressions that did not require you to take all the levels in them, so it's not as cut and dry as you might think.
Can you share a link for this? Never seen any racial class that you could hop out of without finishing.

No brains
2011-02-24, 06:00 PM
This again?

This might be taking a hammer to a can of worms, but I am curious...
...What about using Gestalts with monster classes? Are you not allowed to multi-class in that way?

Swooper
2011-02-24, 06:06 PM
There's a really easy way to do this, you know.

Talk to your DM about it. Get him to houserule something to make the race/template you want playable. It's a well established fact that RHD and LA suck way more than they should, but really, fixing them is Rule 0 territory.

Kylarra
2011-02-24, 06:10 PM
Can you share a link for this? Never seen any racial class that you could hop out of without finishing.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a


Racial classes allow a player to create a 1st-level character of a level-adjusted race at the same power level as a 1st-level character of a standard race. Thereafter, the character can take levels in her racial class in order to gain her full complement of racial abilities. These racial class levels follow the normal rules for gaining levels in a template class.

and from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)


Characters are not required to complete all the levels of a given template class in uninterrupted succession. For example, a character who takes a level of wereboar could then take a level of fighter and a level of rogue (or any other combination of other class levels) before taking another level of wereboar. A character must still take the first level of wereboar before taking the second, just as with a normal class.

nedz
2011-02-24, 06:30 PM
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20040213a

and from here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/sp/20030824a)

These were exactly the two pages which sprung to mind when I read the thread. The purpose here is balance :smallbiggrin:

E.G. Level 2 Half Fey gives Flight.
Any sensible DM is going to want you to delay taking level 2 until 5th or 6th, or possibly even later; because Fly just makes many low level challanges to easy.
So here the rule is reversed, or actually explicitly Rule 0.

ericgrau
2011-02-24, 07:01 PM
It's a well established fact that RHD and LA suck way more than they should, but really, fixing them is Rule 0 territory.
I like how commonly repeated opinions are often touted as well established fact. What would be more amusing would be if people could agree on how many LA/RHD to trim. Then it'd be well established that everyone wants a different number and no one actually figured out the balance nor established anything in the first place.

I've actually calculated out a few races and generally they were correct within 0.5 levels, and often too much LA at low levels and too little (!) at high levels. But that's with core classes. Non-core builds are often stronger and thus you need to adjust accordingly.

It's all well and good chit chat right now but then you get a DM who houserules everything into a terrible mess from stuff he heard in forums without getting solid numbers or other justification. I've seen it before and I've seen others post complaints about it, and it does suck when it happens.

Thurbane
2011-02-24, 08:17 PM
I believe the level drain of RHD is solid by RAW, but...good luck getting any DM to let this fly in any but the most optimized or munchkin game. :smallyuk:

If I was DM, I'd say "Sure, you can get level drained down to 1HD".

"Oh, BTW, that morally questionable caster or undead you hired for the job decided he could just take all your HD, and then get all of your stuff". :smalltongue:


...yes, there are ways around this, like having the undead under control etc.

Waker
2011-02-25, 12:02 AM
Well, I took a peak at the links provided. I don't know why they decided to go ahead and contradict what they had printed in Savage Species just a year and a half earlier, but whatever. The point remains though that even if you can multiclass with a new class, you still wouldn't have the full progression for the savage race once you lost the RHD. You can drain yourself down to 1 RHD, but you would only have the starting abilities of a 1 RHD creature.

Coidzor
2011-02-25, 12:17 AM
I've actually calculated out a few races and generally they were correct within 0.5 levels

LA and correct? What is this oddness of which you speak? Did Wizards post some rubric by which to judge what degree of LA and RHD are appropriate?

Waker
2011-02-25, 12:24 AM
LA and correct? What is this oddness of which you speak? Did Wizards post some rubric by which to judge what degree of LA and RHD are appropriate?
Savage Species lists a basic set of rules for calculating LA on pg 11. I don't strictly use it, but I do allow it as a general estimate. RHD can be used to compare against character of an equal ECL.

Tyndmyr
2011-02-25, 02:41 AM
LA and correct? What is this oddness of which you speak? Did Wizards post some rubric by which to judge what degree of LA and RHD are appropriate?

There's a lot of creatures that play appropriately at the initial level of LA + RHD. Unfortunately, many of them scale terribly.

potatocubed
2011-02-25, 09:03 AM
Savage Species lists a basic set of rules for calculating LA on pg 11. I don't strictly use it, but I do allow it as a general estimate. RHD can be used to compare against character of an equal ECL.

All I remember from Savage Species is the bit where they say that you add LA and RHD, then compare it to a single-classed character of equal level and role to see which you would rather play. If the choice is clear one way or the other, then the LA is out of whack.

Would you rather play a basic ogre, or a 6th-level fighter?

Would you rather play a rakshasa, or a 14th-level sorcerer?

And so on. Personally, I always used this as evidence that LA was designed to encourage people to play 'normal' races instead of plundering the MM for ideas.

JaronK
2011-02-25, 09:07 AM
Savage Species lists a basic set of rules for calculating LA on pg 11. I don't strictly use it, but I do allow it as a general estimate. RHD can be used to compare against character of an equal ECL.

That book is also pretty notorious for its horrible balance, so it's not a great place to find good examples of how to balance things.

JaronK

No brains
2011-02-25, 12:59 PM
"Oh, BTW, that morally questionable caster or undead you hired for the job decided he could just take all your HD, and then get all of your stuff". :smalltongue:


...yes, there are ways around this, like having the undead under control etc.

In case anyone was wondering, I was munching and crunching around to make a RHD-trimmed half-ogre were-anaconda for an npc that some Yuan-Ti were being evil to and experementing on... including experements in were-anacondas and re-shaping its natural strength with negative energy. There's fluff. :smallwink:

The crunch I was going for was the biggest creature you could play with the lowest ECL to make someone who could use Fling Enemy to pitch Colossal creatures around, but maybe I should get into that more in a separate thread...:smallconfused:

nedz
2011-02-25, 01:28 PM
In case anyone was wondering, I was munching and crunching around to make a RHD-trimmed half-ogre were-anaconda for an npc that some Yuan-Ti were being evil to and experementing on... including experements in were-anacondas and re-shaping its natural strength with negative energy. There's fluff. :smallwink:

The crunch I was going for was the biggest creature you could play with the lowest ECL to make someone who could use Fling Enemy to pitch Colossal creatures around, but maybe I should get into that more in a separate thread...:smallconfused:

I think you just hijacked your own thread :smallbiggrin:

No brains
2011-02-25, 01:42 PM
I think you just hijacked your own thread :smallbiggrin:

Uh-oh, I'm outta here! :smallsmile:

Waker
2011-02-25, 02:35 PM
That book is also pretty notorious for its horrible balance, so it's not a great place to find good examples of how to balance things.
It may be broken in certain places, such as the Illithid Savant, but I rarely use it for more than feats and getting a rough estimate on LA.

ericgrau
2011-02-25, 02:52 PM
LA and correct? What is this oddness of which you speak? Did Wizards post some rubric by which to judge what degree of LA and RHD are appropriate?

Via stats comparisons. Pretty much for martial comparisons since LA is rarely worth it for casters anyway. It's pretty straightforward, though time consuming. I still challenge anyone to figure out or find a source that figures out what is proper LA for each race and yet comes up with the same numbers as someone else who did not see their work. If they actually figured it out they'd come up with similar results but for arbitrary hearsay where no one ever actually figured out anything, then no one can agree.

BIGMamaSloth
2011-02-25, 03:50 PM
You aren't allowed to buy off racial hit dice like LA right?

Kylarra
2011-02-25, 04:38 PM
You aren't allowed to buy off racial hit dice like LA right?Nope, and racial hit dice don't contribute to the number of levels you need to have before buying off LA.

LibraryOgre
2011-02-26, 11:44 AM
Not as fully satisfying, especially to those who are playing spellcasters, but I allow people to trade RHD for NPC class levels on a 1 for 1 basis.

Of course, there's also the PF method. All monsters-as-characters have an ECL = to their CR. This includes everything about them... So a minotaur (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/minotaur) barbarian 1 is ECL 5... 4 CR + 1 Barbarian. He has 7 HD... 6d10 for his minotaur, 1d12 for his Barbarian. If they have less than 1 CR, then they're just regular PCs.