What to do with 'versatile' weapons?

[Ashtagon]

By versatile, I mean those weapons that are used two-handed, but with an EWP feat, can be used one-handed. This covers the dwarf war axe and bastard sword in core 3.5e, but the various splatbooks added a versatile weapon for almost every kind of damage-causing implement.

If used two-handed, they are strictly inferior to every two-handed equivalent, so there isn't really any particular reason to use them two-handed unless you are low on resources, or the versatile weapon you have found just happens to have nice magical bonuses.

If used one-handed, they are strictly superior to every one-handed equivalent. This is compensated by requiring a feat for this usage, but that always felt to me a rather heavy tax simply to use a weapon (EWP generally is rather expensive for what it gives, with the exception of spiked chain, which is just plain broken).

I considered a "you need Strength 15 or BAB +3 to use it one-handed", but that feels a lot like "you must be this tall to fight the monster". In any case, it still leaves the weapon strictly inferior if you lack the [feat/BAB/Strength], and strictly superior if you have it.

I guess what I am after is a mechanic where having a versatile weapon is actually a meaningful choice, and not just a choice between whether to sword-and-board it or two-hand it.

Suggestions?

[Veyr]

One: The Spiked Chain is not broken, it's just one of the few Exotic Weapons worth the feat. The extremely low power level of Exotic Weapons has lowered your expectations here, methinks.

Two: You're absolutely right about the problems with these weapons; a Str or BAB req isn't a terrible idea but I concur about the "you must be this high to ride the monster" idea.

Three: Seems to me that the only way that this property is ever going to be useful is if one-handed weapons were to become useful to a warrior in the first place. As is, they are not: sword and board is generally inefficient, and the Duelist is down-right awful. Two-Weapon Fighting is only worthwhile if you get bonus damage from Sneak Attack or similar, but if you do the extra damage from a slightly bigger sword is pointless, especially considering how many feats TWF burns in the first place (and the fact that the Rogue does not get many Bonus Feats). Because the property is worth so little (even if you told me I could use the Bastard Sword one-handed for free, I'd still rather use a Greatsword two-handed), there's no way to really find an 'appropriate' price.

[Qwertystop]

Make the versatile weapons have slightly modified enhancements depending on how they are wielded. Maybe when you're using a +3 Defending Thundering Bastard Sword two-handed, its Defending changes so that the enhancement bonus becomes an increase on the chance of activating Thundering (so you could reduce the bonus to +1 to increase the chance of Thundering to 17-20), but cannot be put toward AC, and when wielded one-handed, the Defending works normally, but the Thundering becomes "on a critical, the wielder gets +1d8 sonic resistance".

tl;dr: Make it so that Versatile weapons have slightly modified enhancement effects depending on how they are wielded.

[Coidzor]

If used one-handed, they are strictly superior to every one-handed equivalent. This is compensated by requiring a feat for this usage, but that always felt to me a rather heavy tax simply to use a weapon.

Well, the real big problem here is that usually it's paying a feat for 1 more damage on average with no other real benefit whatsoever. It's just fairly widely considered not worth it. Even weapon focus can, with power attack, translate into 2 more damage on average as a flat gain. And this is also considered a poor feat.

The only approach I can think of to have a versatile weapon count in the way you seem to want where one can either 2-hand or single hand it at will is to somehow reward a two-handed weapon fighting style for removing one's offhand rather than having no reason to do so whatsoever... Which would, coincidentally, buff up duelisting with a singlehanded weapon and a free hand but allow one to also benefit from two-handed power-attacking as well.

What kind of benefit though... I have no idea.

Personally I'd prefer something like weapon training costs+time combined with something like weapon group feats variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) for base proficiencies and be done with it, because I don't really see any reason to not have exotic weapons be flatly superior to their martial weapon equivalents, what with that being how they're characterized aside from the simply weird weapons.

[Veyr]

Hmm... if hand-and-a-half weapons like the Bastard Sword could get the 1.5x Str and 2:1 damage:attack bonus from Power Attack that two-handed weapons get, while wielded with one hand, that would be worth a feat methinks.

[Ashtagon]

One: The Spiked Chain is not broken, it's just one of the few Exotic Weapons worth the feat. The extremely low power level of Exotic Weapons has lowered your expectations here, methinks.

Could just be that I don't like the spiked chain's flavour :smallyuk: I concur that it's the only EWP worth the feat, but by being in that niche, it means that players are encouraged to take it, which is really distracting if your campaign world is intended to be pseudo-medieval, because spiked chains don't really fit in too well with that paradigm.


Two: You're absolutely right about the problems with these weapons; a Str or BAB req isn't a terrible idea but I concur about the "you must be this high to ride the monster" idea.

Three: Seems to me that the only way that this property is ever going to be useful is if one-handed weapons were to become useful to a warrior in the first place. As is, they are not: sword and board is generally inefficient...

Hmm, what I meant was that, in a build where (for flavour reasons) a player wants to two-handed weapon, a genuine two-handed weapon beats a versatile weapon every time. In a build where (for flavour reasons) a player wants to one-hand it or sword-and-board it, a versatile weapon will always be the superior option, assuming he is [feat/BAB/Strength/tall] enough to use it.

What properties could a versatile weapon have that will make it not necessarily the superior one-hander and inferior two-hander? I accept the basic game design makes one-handers inferior anyway, but I want something that gives a reason for this weapon niche to exist at all.

[Coidzor]

I just don't see a penalty to sword and boarding it up, especially for a minor advantage of 1 extra damage on average in almost all if not all versatile weapons, as worth it in exchange for a feat. So if you add a penalty, you probably should make them no longer cost a feat for the EWP.

I can see adding a minor shield/dodge bonus when used 2-handed due to being comparatively more wieldy than a two-handed weapon though.

[Ashtagon]

Personally I'd prefer something like weapon training costs+time combined with something like weapon group feats variant rule (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm) for base proficiencies and be done with it, because I don't really see any reason to not have exotic weapons be flatly superior to their martial weapon equivalents, what with that being how they're characterized aside from the simply weird weapons.

I definitely intend using those weapon group feats, although not in that exact same set of weapon groupings. My weapon groupings are as follows. Sections with a bracket (eg. Axe (Pick)) still use the same feat as the main weapon of that group; I just separated them out for ease of reading.

Melee Weapons:


Fist (free; no feat required): unarmed strike, gauntlet, dagger, brass knuckles, cestus.
Axe: Throwing axe, hand axe, battle axe, dwarf war axe‡, great axe‡, orc double axe†‡.

Axe (Pick): Light pick, heavy pick.
Axe (Sickle): Kama, sickle, scythe†‡.
Axe (Pole): Glaive‡, guisarme‡, glaive-guisarme‡, bill‡, bec de corbin‡, lucerne hammer‡, bardiche‡.

Claw: Sai, siangham, punching dagger, spiked gauntlet, starknife, sword breaker dagger.
Flail: Nunchaku, light flail, heavy flail, dire flail†‡.
Mace: light mace, battle aspergillum, morning star, heavy mace.

Mace (Club): Sap, club, quarterstaff, great club‡.
Mace (Hammer): Light hammer, war hammer.

Spear: Bayonet, wooden stake, short spear, spear‡, long spear‡, trident, boar spear‡, man catcher‡, lance, ranseur‡.
Sword: Short sword, long sword, bastard sword‡, great sword‡, two-bladed sword†‡.

Sword (Khopesh): Khopesh†, temple sword†.
Sword (Rapier): Rapier, sword cane.
Sword (Scimitar): Kukri, falcata, scimitar, elven curved blade, falchion‡.

Whip: Whip, spiked chain†‡.


† - Requires Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Most of these are either double weapons, or else border into fantasy physics territory (such as the scythe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythe)when not refitted for war; refitted for war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_scythe), it was called the fauchard, and looked nothing like the traditional mental image of a scythe).
‡ - Requires Two-Handed Fighting Proficiency.

Ranged Weapons:


Blowgun: Blowgun.
Bow: Short bow, long bow.
Crossbow (free; no feat required): hand crossbow, light crossbow, heavy crossbow, repeating light crossbow†, repeating heavy crossbow†, double crossbow†.
Mighty Bow (Mighty Bow has Bow as a prerequisite feat): 'Composite' short bow, 'composite' long bow.
Sling: Sling, halfling staff sling.


I also intend to have a feat called "Exotic Weapon Proficiency". Certain weapons (marked † in the list) require both EWP and the relevant Weapon Group proficiency. If you have only one of these two weapons, you are considered non-proficient, and suffer the -4 non-proficiency penalty.

Now, it occurred to me that 2HW is ridiculously cheap and easy in 3e/PF. Suppose in addition to the above, I also make a "Two-Hand Weapon" feat, which s required for two-handed weapons for proficiency? This could also be used to separate out the versatile weapons if those weapons also require the 2HW feat. In other words, the bastard sword and dwarf war axe require both [WP (sword) or WP (axe)] and 2HW proficiency to be use proficiently; however despite requiring the 2HW feat, they are still considered to be one-handed weapons for the purpose of how many hands it takes to attack with (but like any true one-handed weapon, can be used two-handed)?

[Veyr]

Could just be that I don't like the spiked chain's flavour :smallyuk: I concur that it's the only EWP worth the feat, but by being in that niche, it means that players are encouraged to take it, which is really distracting if your campaign world is intended to be pseudo-medieval, because spiked chains don't really fit in too well with that paradigm.
While I'd argue that at least some of the illustrations of Spiked Chains have been ... well, better than others, at least, and the weapon is at least conceivably workable (as long as you go by some of these better illustrations), yes, I'd agree there.

At the same time, just because the Spiked Chain is actually worth a feat to some builds does not mean everyone will take it. There are very many builds that do not have room for the feat and the Spiked Chain just does not do enough to be worth it. Lock-down tripper builds are the only ones where the Spiked Chain truly shines (and even then, a Guisarme is almost as good). Do you really have that many players taking the feat?


Hmm, what I meant was that, in a build where (for flavour reasons) a player wants to two-handed weapon, a genuine two-handed weapon beats a versatile weapon every time. In a build where (for flavour reasons) a player wants to one-hand it or sword-and-board it, a versatile weapon will always be the superior option, assuming he is [feat/BAB/Strength/tall] enough to use it.
Yes, agreed.



What properties could a versatile weapon have that will make it not necessarily the superior one-hander and inferior two-hander? I accept the basic game design makes one-handers inferior anyway, but I want something that gives a reason for this weapon niche to exist at all.
Well, my suggestion was this:

Hmm... if hand-and-a-half weapons like the Bastard Sword could get the 1.5x Str and 2:1 damage:attack bonus from Power Attack that two-handed weapons get, while wielded with one hand, that would be worth a feat methinks.By sort of the same token as not everyone takes Spiked Chain, I don't think everyone will take this. Is a feat worth the addition of Shield AC? Ehh, for some, definitely, but for a lot of people I'd suggest that no, it's not. The other option is that they try to use it for their one-handed weapon while Two-Weapon Fighting, but TWFers really don't have the feats to spare, so that shouldn't be too great a concern.

Honestly, the best use of it might be for the Duelist, and those certainly need all the help they can get.

[Mayhem]

I rule veratile weapons ie bastard sword, lance, and dwarven waraxe can be wielded one handed from horseback as martial weapons, or twohanded on foot.

As someone who has actually fought with swords, I can say that you need to be pretty strong to use them effectively onehanded. They weigh in at around 1.6 kgs compared to the standard sword weight of 0.9-1.3 kgs, and their slight extra length makes them awkward to use if you're not 6foot+. When I was new to the steel weapon re-enactment club I was always given a bastard sword to practice with, which was a real pain but I got strong fast and I'm tall enough that its length was natural for me. Actually my club captain used to use his twohanded sword one handed for training, so it can be done(although he's over 6ft with lanky tree trunk limbs, a typical rubgy build). When he switched to his regualar sword he was scarily fast.

An exotic weapon proficiency might be a bit of a wasted feat, although you could make a package deal to sweeten the pot so to speak. A rule of 13+ str would also be fair, I think. The extra mass of weapon slows you down so really you end up doing less damage than with an appropriately sized sword, and the extra length makes the balance significantly different so you tend to swing more wildly with less control.

Then again, 'a wizard done it' is also an acceptable reason for anything :smalltongue:

[Fizban]

Hmm... if hand-and-a-half weapons like the Bastard Sword could get the 1.5x Str and 2:1 damage:attack bonus from Power Attack that two-handed weapons get, while wielded with one hand, that would be worth a feat methinks.

This one, it's good. When I was doing some one-weapon fighting feats, I realized that the easiest way for sword n' board to catch up would be to give them a feat that lets the power attack at 2/1 with one hand. It's pretty bland for a feat, but it gets the job done, and you can easily compare it to Improved Buckler Defense: both let you use a shield with two handed power attack damage, one has more shield bonus and the other has more base strength to damage.

Tying it to "bastard" weapons is a great idea. Exotic weapons need to have abilities on par with feats, just a tad less useful in exchange for being so easy to qualify for Exotic Proficiency. In this case, I'd buff my Strong Arm feat to give 1 1/2 strength and let you count as if wielding the weapon in two hands for feats, then make bastard weapons just give you 2-1 power attack.

[Ashtagon]

Hmm... if hand-and-a-half weapons like the Bastard Sword could get the 1.5x Str and 2:1 damage:attack bonus from Power Attack that two-handed weapons get, while wielded with one hand, that would be worth a feat methinks.

This actually exacerbates the problem that I am trying to remove. For sword-and-board or one-hand types, it makes the versatile weapons even more strongly the only sensible choice of weapon - to whit: in a situation where a character does not want to fight two-hander style, can there be a reason why he would ever pick a longsword over a bastard sword?

My current favourite option is a new feat ("Zweihander", if the name isn't taken yet) to unlock proficiency simultaneously in all versatile and two-hander weapons (subject to having the appropriate weapon group proficiency too). So you'd have:


long sword (1h weapon, requires WP: swords)
bastard sword (1h weapon, requires WP: swords and WP: zweihander)
great sword (2h weapon, requires WP: swords and WP: zweihander)
battle axe (1h weapon, requires WP: axes)
dwarf war axe (1h weapon, requires WP: axes and WP: zweihander)
great axe (2h weapon, requires WP: axes and WP: zweihander)

[Mayhem]

Hmm how about 2:1 ratio for combat expertise while using a shield or offhand-weapon defence? I guess it's not very effective since full plate is the same as a shield really. Under a system where armour is damage reduction/conversion would work though, but then again under that system you'd probably rather the damage :smallsigh:.

[Ashtagon]

Here are my versions of Combat Expertise and Power Attack. Note that using Wisdom and Constitution to define the duration of the 'zone' is intentional, representing mental fortitude and holding concentration together, and physical stamina to carry on making power attack after power attack, respectively. This is designed to eliminate the cheese that results from massive attack roll boosts being converted into damage. Note that as written, versatile weapons can benefit from both feats simultaneously. I'm not sure if that is a feature or a flaw.

Combat Expertise

Prerequisite: Intelligence 13.

Benefit: Once per day, you may enter a state of mind in which you are a natural expert at dodging at weaving to avoid attacks in combat. You can remain in this mental zone for a number of rounds equal to your Wisdom score. This zone is represented in-game as a pool of temporary hit points which are replenished at the start of your round. The size of this pool is equal to your base attack bonus, or your Intelligence bonus, whichever is larger.

Action Point: While in the zone, you may spend an action point to completely ignore all damage from a single melee attack. You may spend this action point after the GM has declared the amount of damage rolled, and before it has any effect on your character's armour, hit points, or magical defences.

Special: If you are fighting with a one-handed weapon (including with a one-handed weapon and a shield), your pool of temporary hit points is double normal. You do not gain this doubled bonus if you have a double weapon, or if you have a weapon in each hand - even if you only make a single attack in that round.

You may gain this feat multiple times. Each time you gain the feat, you can enter the 'zone' an additional time each day.

A barbarian with this feat may spend one use of his barbarian rage to enter this mental zone instead of entering his barbarian rage.

Power Attack

Prerequisite: Strength 13.

Benefit: Once per day, you may enter a state of mind in which your melee attacks hit far harder than normal. You can remain in this mental zone for a number of rounds equal to your Constitution score. While in this zone, you gain a bonus on damage rolls equal to your base attack bonus or your Strength bonus, whichever is larger.

Action Point: While in the zone, you may spend an action point to add an additional 2d20 hit points of damage to a single melee attack. This action point is spent after you have rolled the base damage inflicted by the attack, but before the GM determines its effect on the target.

Special: If you are fighting with a two-handed weapon (including a 'versatile' weapons used one or two-handed), your damage bonus is double normal. Edit: Versatile weapons only gain the doubled bonus when used two-handed.

You may gain this feat multiple times. Each time you gain the feat, you can enter the 'zone' an additional time each day.

A barbarian with this feat may spend one use of his barbarian rage to enter this mental zone instead of entering his barbarian rage.

[boomwolf]

Two-handed gish builds profit from them. you can switch to single-handed for casting, then two-handed for combat...

That's all I can think of.

[Ashtagon]

Let's see...

Bear in mind that both bastard swords and great swords require an additional feat (WP: Zweihander) to unlock proficiency.

Gishes could always benefit from a bastard sword anyway, in that they could switch to one hand for casting. Considering their bab is a little gimp anyway, they don't get massively boosted with the feat rewrites as much as a true front-line fighter.

Two-hander style: greatsword can power attack, while bastard sword can power attack and combat expertise.

One-Hander style: Bastard sword can power attack and combat expertise, while long sword can combat expertise only. This is problematic.

Solution: remove the ability for versatile weapons to get the Power Attack special bonus unless actually wielded two-handed? So even if a character were in both zones, he could only benefit from Power Attack on the bastard sword while using it two-handed, and would only benefit from Combat Expertise while using it one-handed.

Issue: This still means a bastard sword can either power attack or combat expertise with the extra bonus. This isn't so great as it might seem though, because it forces two different styles of fighting to fully benefit from, which is inherently sub-optimal.

I intentionally made it so double weapons never get the special doubled bonus with either Power Attack or Combat Expertise. Is this unfair?

[Coidzor]

Two-handed gish builds profit from them. you can switch to single-handed for casting, then two-handed for combat...

That's all I can think of.

Well, yes, but all two handed weapons can do that, not just versatile ones. It's a free action to grip or remove one's hand from a weapon.