"What's In A Name?" Competition Discussion and Feedback Thread

[Fax Celestis]

This thread is for discussions and critiques of material presented in the "What's In A Name?" (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=204411) contest series.


What's In A Name?
That which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/divider2.gif
What's In A Name? III - Stargazer
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/FaxCelestis/Steampunk_Girl_by_ZoeStead.png

This contest is open until July 20th at midnight.

Older Contests
Mar 1 - Apr 15: Urban Pioneer (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=189224)
Apr 15 - May 20: Waracle (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=195307)

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Highly intriguing. I may be whipping something up for this, if any good ideas come my way.

[DrakebloodIV]

This looks incredibly fun, I gotta say. I'm brainstorming something right now. Once again Fax, you've proven that you have the homebrewing midas touch.

[Fax Celestis]

Just a quick bump for 12 days remaining. I can answer system questions if people need help.

[unosarta]

Got my idea out, and I am currently working on it. This should be interesting.

My basic idea: The Life Seeker.

The Life Seeker is a Druid who binds the spirits of the City, gaining powers from the people who populate it, and find the spirits of the city itself, the hidden away ones.

They use Avatar of Nature to bind locations (Market Square, Alley, Road, Tower, Home), to bind roles of people within the town (Criminal, Constable, Magistrate, Citizen, Priest, probably need a few more), and to bind the seasons the towns go through (Market Season, Warming Season, Cooling Season, and Rainy season; probably could have gone with a better idea here, couldn't really think of anything), and finally bind the greater Spirits (Shaofae, the Final Tree; Hianyar, the Watching One; Oriosi, the Hunting Fox; and Iridubin, the Cold Steel Sky).

Any thoughts?

[Fax Celestis]

Sounds like a neat idea, and 'prestige spirits' was something I had in mind when I first created the druid.

Instead of seasons, you could bind types of city (Trading Port, Metropolis, Hamlet, Capital, Industrial Center, Military Encampment) or places you'd find cities (Frontier, Metropolitan, Rural, Suburban, Urban) or types of government (Anarchy, Democracy, Republic, Meritocracy, Theocracy).

[unosarta]

Sounds like a neat idea, and 'prestige spirits' was something I had in mind when I first created the druid.

Instead of seasons, you could bind types of city (Trading Port, Metropolis, Hamlet, Capital, Industrial Center, Military Encampment) or places you'd find cities (Frontier, Metropolitan, Rural, Suburban, Urban) or types of government (Anarchy, Democracy, Republic, Meritocracy, Theocracy).

Oooh, fantastic ideas! I like the city types especially well. Thank you so very much. I have completed roughly half of the actual class features, but I still have all of the spirits themselves, which could take me a good day or three. Good thing I saw this thread in time.

[Fax Celestis]

Nine days left!

[unosarta]

All of the second level Urban Spirits are done, and I am working on the third level ones and the Urban Spirits feat. I feel almost as if the spirits are kind of weak, and I was trying to work on it. Additionally, making Nature's Signs for the Urban Spirits is kind of hard, mostly because the Life Seekers are really social creatures, and considering that all the Nature's Signs are essentially penalties to Diplomacy, it makes it kind of hard. It is rather impossible to make something like a port become a sign. :smallsigh:

[Jallorn]

I'm working on something that is a kind of civil rights activist. Still thinking of a good name, but the basic gist of the class is someone who uses their knowledge to further civil rights.

Thought this was a d20 Modern competition. :smallredface: The ideas I was going with for this PRC won't work so well in a more DnD-like system, so I'm going to drop from the competition. Still going to hold onto the idea though, since it's a good one.

[unosarta]

Ugh, done with the third level spirits, moving on to the fourth level ones. Then I have to go back and name the abilities.

[Edit]: 3/13/11: Finished the Fourth level spirits, updated the entry, now I just need to name all of the non-Fourth level spirit abilities, and then I am done.

Herp derp, time traveling powers.

[MammonAzrael]

I just saw this and I'll try to some up with something for it. I haven't gone over d20r material in a while...which classes are currently viable?

My first instinct is to go Ranger, but I'll need to refine the idea a lot more before I can submit anything. :smallsmile:

[Fax Celestis]

I'm going to kick the deadline back to 4/15, per a request.

As for available classes...

Symbol (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=259), Engineer (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=258), Luckthief (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=131), Rogue (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=16), Dreadnaught (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=70), Cleric (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71), Trapper (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=193) (not mine), Warlord (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=116), Paladin (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=198), Soulknife (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=120), Savant (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=118), Monk (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=114), Fencer (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=115), Ranger (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68), Hunter (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=32), Medium (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=31), and Druid (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=15). There's also the unfinished frameworks for the Sorcerer (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Sorcerer) and Wizard (http://wiki.faxcelestis.net/index.php?title=D20r:Wizard).

[MammonAzrael]

If I go off Sorceror, do you want me to base it off the one posted on wiki, or the one that I sent to you a while back?

[Fax Celestis]

If I go off Sorceror, do you want me to base it off the one posted on wiki, or the one that I sent to you a while back?

Use the wiki'd one I linked. It's the current model I'm working with. I had to get rid of the spell-seeds thingamajobber, but I think it'll turn out better overall.

[MammonAzrael]

K. I'll just avoid the sorceror and stick with working on my Ranger idea then. :smallsmile:

[unosarta]

Finished naming all of the abilities, got pictures for the Fourth level spirits. I might get pictures for the other levels.

I will be writing up the back-story of each Fourth level spirit shortly.

[Fax Celestis]

Just a little bump for forum movery shenanigans.

[Fax Celestis]

Badumpabump.

[MammonAzrael]

How exactly do skill sets work with PrCs? Since you don't need to be advancing skill points...do you only make an entry for them if the PrC grants new skills?

[Fax Celestis]

Yes. Remember that overlapping skill sets increase your training level.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

Well, I've thought long and hard about this, and I must say...the name given just doesn't inspire me to make anything I'd enjoy making. Unfortunately, I will not be submitting an entry this time around.

[Dust]

I have submitted my first ever piece of 3.5 homebrew, and invite all criticisms - especially those regarding stat progression or mechanical problems that I'm just not familiar with. I'm sure there's a whole handful of errors or redundancies that I'm missing. :smalltongue:

[MammonAzrael]

Congrats on your first homebrew! :smallbiggrin: I'll try to critique it if I can, though I need to finish my submission very soon, so I don't know if I'll have the time.

EDIT: Alright, I managed to get my submission in! :smallsmile: While I hope to find a picture, I'm not terribly worried about it. If it wins, I suspect it'll need a new picture to be published anyways. :smalltongue: I should have the urban domain up sometime tomorrow.

DOUBLE EDIT: Having trouble with the Urban domain. There just aren't many spells in the OGL that fit. I'd love to hear suggestions...otherwise I'm thinking of scrapping a new domain, and just using...Travel or something.

[Fax Celestis]

Today is the FINAL DAY for Urban Pioneer entries. A new contest has been posted: see the first post for details.

[MammonAzrael]

The link needs updating. :smallsmile: (unless you're waiting to update it til tomorrow, in which case I'd make a note of that)

War oracle eh? Interesting...I've got a couple ideas stewing...

Also, I dig the picture, but also find it hilarious. It looks like a latex dress or somesuch, and while it may be form-fitting and attractive, there is now way she is able to run or even take large steps with the dress that tight around her legs. I'm kind tempted to include some class ability to reflect that. :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

I was having a hard time finding a picture that suited, so I figured I'd just grab something of Genzoman's that fit.

[MammonAzrael]

It might be a good idea to post which d20r classes are currently considered playable, and which ones are going revision in the main thread.

In terms of PrC power level, what are you looking for here, and for d20r in general? The name brings to mind a caster of some sort. Do you want any full casting PrCs in d20r, or would you prefer none?

[Fax Celestis]

Right now I'm trying to hold fast to 9/10 or 4/5 for the most part. The list from last contest is still correct, but I'll also note that psionic classes are (a) available; and (b) not changing much. I'll put it in the contest rules.

[unosarta]

I kind of want to make a Druid PrC for every single contest. Is that wrong of me?

[Fax Celestis]

No! d20r druids are a really neat class, in my opinion.

[unosarta]

No! d20r druids are a really neat class, in my opinion.

Not sure how I would make a War Oracle druid, but I almost have the feeling I can do it. Oh man. Now I am excited. :smallbiggrin:

[Doc Roc]

I'll start work on my Bro-Sighted immediately.

[Dust]

Given that the prior contest is now closed, at what point does the voting stage begin?

[Fax Celestis]

Given that the prior contest is now closed, at what point does the voting stage begin?

As soon as I get a mod to open a poll. I've sent off a PM, should hear back in a bit.

[Owrtho]

Well, having looked over some of the base classes, I find myself quite tempted to make a Trapper PRC for this. The main issue I see though is coming up with a way to 'predict' where opponents are going to move in the coming turns so as to place traps ahead of time, without just asking the DM or forcing them to make specific movements in coming turns. On the other hand if you do it just with the knowledge it's placed somewhere the opponent will move (but you don't know yourself where it is), then that may seem rather overpowered.
Any suggestions? Also, do traps count as spells? I noticed you mentioned only wanting 9/10 or 4/5 casting PRCs.

Owrtho

[MammonAzrael]

As soon as I get a mod to open a poll. I've sent off a PM, should hear back in a bit.

Do you want people to be able to vote for their own submissions? Because going the poll route means that they can.

[Shadow_Elf]

I tend to stick to 4e, but I have been interested in d20r since Fax started working on it. I will see if I can wrack my brain and teach myself d20r fast enough to get a submission out in time. Right now, I am thinking of making a Warlord PrC that uses Divination Discipline spells to help lead allies in battle.

[MammonAzrael]

I tend to stick to 4e, but I have been interested in d20r since Fax started working on it. I will see if I can wrack my brain and teach myself d20r fast enough to get a submission out in time. Right now, I am thinking of making a Warlord PrC that uses Divination Discipline spells to help lead allies in battle.

As long as you understand the basics of 3.5, you should be able to manage fairly well. The systems are pretty similar, just with lots of good refinements. :smallsmile:

As for my own entry, I've been thinking this would be a good one to build a gish PrC. Which lead me to an interesting thought on dealing with PrCs in general.

Magic-based PrCs are inherently more versatile, because of how they advance casting. +1 to casting class advances a whole variety of classes, because they're all based off the same mechanics (this seems most prevalent with psionics). Martial classes, however, each have a unique abilities, not a general one, so you can't have a PrC that advances +1 martial class because that doesn't work when you have atmas, fencing, auras, and whatever for each martial class. I feel like this is an issue that should be addressed. Initial thoughts are that progressing abilities may just fix it all, or that casters need can't be so ubiquitous.

[Owrtho]

I'd point out that the ability keywords mentioned in the d20r System Notes of the contest thread seems to allow for what you're talking about.

Owrtho

[MammonAzrael]

Well...yes and no. The more I look at them, the more confused I am as to their intended power level.

Take, for example, the d20r cleric (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71). As it stands right now, any PrC that it takes will advance the classing casting (as well as domain powers and bonus feats). Even PrCs that have nothing to do with being a cleric. Now what happens if the cleric took levels in a PrC that advanced divine abilities? Not only would every ability except for a few bonus feats be advanced, but progressing abilities...would they be advanced twice? How does that work?

The lines are too undefined at the moment. Additionally, if d20r does go with PrCs that have "+1 level to [Keyword] abilities" then the base classes need to have a decent variety of keywords (even if it's just a roughly even split between two keywords). Otherwise a class like the cleric would lose almost nothing from taking a PrC that advanced said keywords.

[Fax Celestis]

Well...yes and no. The more I look at them, the more confused I am as to their intended power level.

Take, for example, the d20r cleric (http://forum.faxcelestis.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=71). As it stands right now, any PrC that it takes will advance the classing casting (as well as domain powers and bonus feats). Even PrCs that have nothing to do with being a cleric. Now what happens if the cleric took levels in a PrC that advanced divine abilities? Not only would every ability except for a few bonus feats be advanced, but progressing abilities...would they be advanced twice? How does that work?

That then is a problem with the cleric, not with the keywords.

Progressing changes how you advance from "class level" to "one-half class level plus hero value": it comes out the same for a single class, but for a multiclass it works out like ToB classes. Further, Progressing only applies for Favored Classes.

I'm swapping some of the keywords on the cleric right now.

AAAALSO: Voting is up on Urban Pioneer. Go vote!

[MammonAzrael]

Ahh, I missed that about the Progressing keyword. Is there a page or thread that spells out the various keywords, as well as the rules for the progressing keyword? From what I'm understanding: If you're taking a class that isn't your favored class, then all abilities progress as in 3.5. If it is your favored class, then any ability with the progressing keyword is keyed off you HV + 1/2 your class level instead of your class level? How does this interact with things that boost your HV, like the various feats, Or the Legendary Hero ability from Radiant Pyrearch?

The cleric looks better now. :smallsmile:

Since you did go for a poll, are we allowed to vote for our own submissions? Additionally, you may want to bump the thread and changed the title to note that voting is in progress, to increase thread traffic.

[Fax Celestis]

Ahh, I missed that about the Progressing keyword. Is there a page or thread that spells out the various keywords, as well as the rules for the progressing keyword? From what I'm understanding: If you're taking a class that isn't your favored class, then all abilities progress as in 3.5. If it is your favored class, then any ability with the progressing keyword is keyed off you HV + 1/2 your class level instead of your class level? How does this interact with things that boost your HV, like the various feats, Or the Legendary Hero ability from Radiant Pyrearch?Well, Pyrearch needs a change: it was made before I had decided to use HV as a mechanic like this, so it's a little omgwtfspqr now. It should probably get bumped down to just +1 HV, and retain the 'share HV' ability. Feats that boost HV have been altered, except in the case of Legendary Promise (I think that's the one) to not increase HV. Legendary Promise's ability is just +1 HV.

As far as temporary boosters? Well, if you have something keyed off of HV, then you get to use your new increased HV.


Since you did go for a poll, are we allowed to vote for our own submissions? Additionally, you may want to bump the thread and changed the title to note that voting is in progress, to increase thread traffic.

Yeah. I'll do that now.

[MammonAzrael]

So then it would be theoretically possible to have your various abilities with the progressing keyword to be higher than your actual level? Like, say, a level 2 character with Legendary Hero would have an HV of 2, meaning their abilities would be treated as if they were level 3?

Also sorry for so many questions, but I figure understanding all the differences and how PrCs will interact with them will lead to the best PrCs. :smallsmile:

[Owrtho]

Seeing as it seems to have been over looked, I'll restate my question as to weather traps count as spellcasting for your preference toward 4/5ths & 9/10ths casting PRCs.

Owrtho

[Tanuki Tales]

Just chiming in that I voted for Life Seeker in the What's in a Name I. Got to love me some Jack Hawksmoor. :smallamused:

[Fax Celestis]

So then it would be theoretically possible to have your various abilities with the progressing keyword to be higher than your actual level? Like, say, a level 2 character with Legendary Hero would have an HV of 2, meaning their abilities would be treated as if they were level 3?Well, it's 1/2 level + HV, and the half progression feats require a 'minimum class level of 3' to function. The earliest, then, that you can do this is indeed third, at which point you come out with 1/2(3)+HV. HV is 1/2 level, rounded down, add one. So 1+2=3, and you come out even. HOWEVER.

Well, let me just demonstrate. The Dreadnaught gets +2 prowess per level from its Embodied Prowess feature, which is tagged with the Martial keyword. If you were to take three levels of Dreadnaught, and then the rest with a 6/level progression class (like, say, Warlord), you'd end up with a different prowess progression. Look:

{table=head]Class | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 10 | 11 | 12 | 13 | 14 | 15 | 16 | 17 | 18 | 19 | 20
Dreadnaught | 8 | 16 | 24 | 32 | 40 | 48 | 56 | 64 | 72 | 80 | 88 | 96 | 104 | 112 | 120 | 128 | 136 | 144 | 152 | 160
6 per Level | 6 | 12 | 18 | 24 | 30 | 36 | 42 | 48 | 54 | 60 | 66 | 72 | 78 | 84 | 90 | 96 | 102 | 108 | 114 | 120
Dread 3, 17 6/L w/ Masterful Aptitude | 8 | 16 | 24 | 34 | 40 | 47 | 53 | 60 | 66 | 73 | 79 | 86 | 92 | 99 | 105 | 112 | 118 | 125 | 131 | 138
Above w/ Intrepid Future | 8 | 16 | 24 | 35 | 41 | 48 | 54 | 61 | 67 | 74 | 80 | 87 | 93 | 100 | 106 | 113 | 119 | 126 | 132 | 139
[/table]


Seeing as it seems to have been over looked, I'll restate my question as to weather traps count as spellcasting for your preference toward 4/5ths & 9/10ths casting PRCs.

I'm torn. On one hand I want to say all features are created equal, but on the other I know they're not. Go ahead and make it full progression.

EDIT: Okay I don't quite know where my math went wrong but that table is weird around third level. The point is made, though.

[Veyr]

Pretty sure HV should be 1/2, rounded up (no minimum 1 though ceil(0.5)=1 so it wouldn't matter); that way it mimics when most 3.5 classes gain new levels of features (spells, maneuvers, etc). And half (rounded down) plus half (rounded up) will always equal 1, so HV+half class level will work out a la ToB.

[Shadow_Elf]

The PrC I am working on the for the current contest is the Prescient Commander. I am having his table include a column similar to those found in 3.5e Casting PrCs and it says "+1 level of existing aura-granting class" and then there's the little text blurb about how it progresses Auras. Will this interact weirdly with the Progressing mechanics and Favoured Classes?

[Fax Celestis]

The PrC I am working on the for the current contest is the Prescient Commander. I am having his table include a column similar to those found in 3.5e Casting PrCs and it says "+1 level of existing aura-granting class" and then there's the little text blurb about how it progresses Auras. Will this interact weirdly with the Progressing mechanics and Favoured Classes?

Nope, that's exactly how it should be done.

[MammonAzrael]

Ok...continuing to use the Dreadnaught as an example.

Assume you're a 3rd level dreadnaught, and it's a favored class. So your [Progressing] abilities are currently keyed to 1 (1/2 your class level) + 2 (your HV) = 3. And if you have Intrepid Future feat your HV is 3, meaning that your [Progressing] abilities are now = to 4; 1 higher than your actual level. Does this mean you just gain an additional HP and +2 Prowess? What happens if you aren't a Dreadnaught, but a 4th level cleric? Do you gain access to 3rd level spells at 4th level?

What happens if you're a 5th level Warlord (and it's your favored class), and you take your sixth and seventh levels in a PrC that grants +1 level to auras and +1 level to martial? Your Aura of Leadership would be 2 (1/2 class level) + 4 (HV) + 1 (PrC aura increase) + 1 (PrC martial increase) = 8...1 level higher than your total level. Add Intrepid Future to increase that to 2 levels higher. Do you learn the extra aura as if you were 8th level, even though you're only 7th?

[Shadow_Elf]

Okay, PEACH away, since this is not only my first 3.5e homebrew, but a product of my limited knowledge of d20r. I will work more on the latter fluff sections soon. Sorry if the pic is screen-stretchy.

[Fax Celestis]

Assume you're a 3rd level dreadnaught, and it's a favored class. So your [Progressing] abilities are currently keyed to 1 (1/2 your class level) + 2 (your HV) = 3. And if you have Intrepid Future feat your HV is 3, meaning that your [Progressing] abilities are now = to 4; 1 higher than your actual level. Does this mean you just gain an additional HP and +2 Prowess? What happens if you aren't a Dreadnaught, but a 4th level cleric? Do you gain access to 3rd level spells at 4th level?Yes. A 4th level cleric would have 1/2 level (2) + HV (2) + Intrepid Future (1) for an effective level of 5 for features related to their particular feat in question and/or favored classes. Beyond that point, however, it tips back to single-classing being a quicker entry.


What happens if you're a 5th level Warlord (and it's your favored class), and you take your sixth and seventh levels in a PrC that grants +1 level to auras and +1 level to martial?

Stacking levels would count as levels in the original class for the purposes of determining your 1/2 level, so you'd have 1/2(7)+HV.

EDIT: I suppose I could add a "to a maximum of your class level" clause like Practiced Spellcaster has. I could've swore, however, that after 3rd level the one-higher discrepancy disappeared.

[MammonAzrael]

Yes. A 4th level cleric would have 1/2 level (2) + HV (2) + Intrepid Future (1) for an effective level of 5 for features related to their particular feat in question and/or favored classes. Beyond that point, however, it tips back to single-classing being a quicker entry.

So you can gain access to spells a level early then?


Stacking levels would count as levels in the original class for the purposes of determining your 1/2 level, so you'd have 1/2(7)+HV.

I accounted for that.

5 levels in Warlord / 2 = 2
2 levels in PrC that grants +1 [Aura] and +1 [Martial] / 2 = 2
7 levels total = 4 HV

Total of 8

Though since you can gain spells earlier with Intrepid Future, I get the feeling that you'd be gaining other benefits, like the aura learned at 8th level, early as well.

Heck, if I'm understanding things properly, you could be a seventh level character with access to 5th level spells by taking something like 5 levels of cleric, followed by two levels in a PrC that advances both [Divine] abilities, and spellcasting, and taking Intrepid Future.

7th level character + Intrepid Future = 5 HV
(5 levels in cleric + 2 levels [Divine] boosting PrC + 2 levels in same PrC boosting spellcasting) / 2 = 4
Cleric spellcasting now treated as a 9th level cleric.

If you're ok with this, then no worries. Otherwise, there should be some easy solutions. You could make things cap of at your current HD, you could simply say no to PrCs that advance more than one keyword, and I'm sure there are more.

If I am understanding how this works...then [Progressing] seems a little underwhelming. Firstly, the keyword does nothing for those who don't favor the class. Then anyone who takes a class that advances a given keyword will advance equally, regardless of favored class or not. It only comes into play when you're taking a favored class, then you take level in a PrC that does not advance your abilities from your favored class (or the appropriate keywords). Correct?

[Fax Celestis]

Heck, if I'm understanding things properly, you could be a seventh level character with access to 5th level spells by taking something like 5 levels of cleric, followed by two levels in a PrC that advances both [Divine] abilities, and spellcasting, and taking Intrepid Future.1. see my edit above.
2. There is no +spellcasting, just +divine features.


If I am understanding how this works...then [Progressing] seems a little underwhelming. Firstly, the keyword does nothing for those who don't favor the class. Then anyone who takes a class that advances a given keyword will advance equally, regardless of favored class or not. It only comes into play when you're taking a favored class, then you take level in a PrC that does not advance your abilities from your favored class (or the appropriate keywords). Correct?Yes, but you're not looking at the whole picture. Dwarves have favored class: dreadnaught. If they take, say, three levels of dreadnaught before heading into fencer, they continue to progress [Progressing] features from dreadnaught at the 1/2 class level + HV rate.

That's probably been a bit unclear before, where I've just been saying level. Here's a direct quote.


Masterful Aptitude [Multiclass]
Benefit: Determine the effects of your [Martial, Progressing] abilities of any class that you have at least three levels in by substituting 1/2 your class level plus your hero value for your class level.

Normal: You determine your class features according to your class level.


Favored Class: Warlord and dreadnaught. Dwarves substitute 1/2 their class level plus their Hero Value for their class level when determining the strength of [Progressing] features in the warlord class if they have at least three warlord levels. Dwarves also substitute 1/2 their class level plus their Hero Value for their class level when determining the strength of [Progressing] features in the dreadnaught class if they have at least three dreadnaught levels.

So a Dwarven Dreadnaught 3/Warlord 3/Fencer 5 has progressing features from Dreadnaught as if he were Dreadnaught 7, progressing features from Warlord as if he were Warlord 7, regular features from Dreadnaught as if he were a Dreadnaught 3, regular features from Warlord as if he were a Warlord 3, and Fencer features as if he were Fencer 5.

[MammonAzrael]

1. see my edit above.
2. There is no +spellcasting, just +divine features.

1. Capping it would make sense.
2. Fair enough, but I could do something like:

11th level character + Intrepid Future = 7 HV
(5 levels in soulknife + 6 levels [Discipline] boosting PrC + 6 levels in same PrC boosting [Martial]) / 2 = 8
Soulknife Mind Blade now treated as a 15th level soulknife, despite only having 11 HD.

I'm pushing this so I can understand it, and so that the rules regarding it are clear, so that future PrC creation can be as open as possible.


Yes, but you're not looking at the whole picture. Dwarves have favored class: dreadnaught. If they take, say, three levels of dreadnaught before heading into fencer, they continue to progress [Progressing] features from dreadnaught at the 1/2 class level + HV rate.

That's probably been a bit unclear before, where I've just been saying level. Here's a direct quote.

So essentially, the [Progressing] keyword exists only to help characters that multiclass out of their favored class? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that if that is the case, just trying to be clear as to the intent of the keyword. And there will be feats that allow you to gain the benefit of the [Progressing] keyword for classes that are not your race's favored classes?

[unosarta]

The awareness skill really needs to be defined. Like, I have a class feature now that deals cold damage, and causes a target who is seen via Awareness or scrying must make a Will save or be Shaken, stacking with itself. As of right now, I actually don't know how this works at all. How exactly does Awareness work? The wiki doesn't have an article on it, and I am really, really confused.

[Shadow_Elf]

And there will be feats that allow you to gain the benefit of the [Progressing] keyword for classes that are not your race's favored classes?

That's what the feat Fax described is already. It is called "Masterful Aptitude".

[Fax Celestis]

11th level character + Intrepid Future = 7 HV
(5 levels in soulknife + 6 levels [Discipline] boosting PrC + 6 levels in same PrC boosting [Martial]) / 2 = 8
Soulknife Mind Blade now treated as a 15th level soulknife, despite only having 11 HD.

I'm pushing this so I can understand it, and so that the rules regarding it are clear, so that future PrC creation can be as open as possible.A PrC that simultaneously advances Martial and Discipline features at the same time should function like a theurge, and would probably (at least, in my mind) have text that states that you only apply it to a feature that shares both keywords once.


So essentially, the [Progressing] keyword exists only to help characters that multiclass out of their favored class? I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that if that is the case, just trying to be clear as to the intent of the keyword. And there will be feats that allow you to gain the benefit of the [Progressing] keyword for classes that are not your race's favored classes?Yes, and as of right now, no, but the opportunity is certainly there. However, the multiclass feats function in pretty much the same way already, just with keywords other than [Progressing].

[MammonAzrael]

A PrC that simultaneously advances Martial and Discipline features at the same time should function like a theurge, and would probably (at least, in my mind) have text that states that you only apply it to a feature that shares both keywords once.

Yes, and as of right now, no, but the opportunity is certainly there. However, the multiclass feats function in pretty much the same way already, just with keywords other than [Progressing].

Right, I was seeing it as a possible Theurge style PrC...like the following:

Level|Stuff|Keywords
1|X|+1 level of existing [Discipline] / +1 level of existing [Martial]
2|Y|+1 level of existing [Discipline] / +1 level of existing [Martial]
...|Z|+1 level of existing [Discipline] / +1 level of existing [Martial]

The question there is, do you want the progression to select a single class and advance all the [keyword] abilities from only that class, or have it advance all abilities with the [keyword]? The former would be more in line with 3.5 style, and probably less powerful and less encouraging of multiclassing, while the later could offer their own powerful options.

And the multiclass feats are only needed for classes that aren't your favored class. Ok. If I have more questions I will certainly post them. :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

The question there is, do you want the progression to select a single class and advance all the [keyword] abilities from only that class, or have it advance all abilities with the [keyword]? The former would be more in line with 3.5 style, and probably less powerful and less encouraging of multiclassing, while the later could offer their own powerful options.

I like the idea of the latter but I worry about something like Dread 3/Warlord 3/Fencer 3/Barbarian 3/Martial PrC 9.

[MammonAzrael]

I like the idea of the latter but I worry about something like Dread 3/Warlord 3/Fencer 3/Barbarian 3/Martial PrC 9.

Yeah, that was my thinking too. One thought is that you could have the "extra" levels cap out at the number of levels you have in the class it's boosting. So using your above example all for of those Class 3s would have their [Martial] abilities equivalent to 6th level in those classes.

[unosarta]

Okay, all of the crunch for the Oracle of the Elemental Grove is done. Still need some clarification on the Awareness skill, but other than that, I think I am good.

Does the [Elemental] keyword already exist as an ability tag? Because if not, I would like to define it further.

[Fax Celestis]

It doesn't. We've been using Primal.

The skills themselves need some fleshing. As of right now, you can probably use the SRD stuff on Listen and Spot.

[unosarta]

It doesn't. We've been using Primal.

The skills themselves need some fleshing. As of right now, you can probably use the SRD stuff on Listen and Spot.

Do you want me to change it from [Elemental] to [Primal]?

Okay. I think it works as written right now, then, although I am not too sure on the wording on Marrowfrost.

[Fax Celestis]

I'm not sure. It really depends. I mean, new keywords are okay, but they'll fall into the late-3.5 material problem: no outside support. So it's up to you, really.

[unosarta]

I'm not sure. It really depends. I mean, new keywords are okay, but they'll fall into the late-3.5 material problem: no outside support. So it's up to you, really.

Where is the [Primal] keyword defined? On the wiki?

[Fax Celestis]

Forum. Right now, keywords don't do anything in themselves: they only show what works with other things.

[unosarta]

Forum. Right now, keywords don't do anything in themselves: they only show what works with other things.

Ah, okay. If it isn't actually supposed to do anything, then I can just change it to [Primal]. What other classes actually use [Primal] abilities, though? Because my quick jaunt through the Wiki has brought up... nothing.

[Edit]: ...and now [Elemtenal] has been replaced with [Primal].

[Fax Celestis]

Ah, okay. If it isn't actually supposed to do anything, then I can just change it to [Primal]. What other classes actually use [Primal] abilities, though? Because my quick jaunt through the Wiki has brought up... nothing.

[Edit]: ...and now [Elemtenal] has been replaced with [Primal].

The forum is more up to date than the wiki. I need to fix this, but it's a big task and its' sort of intimidating.

Right now, I think Druid, Trapper, and Ranger are the only ones.

[MammonAzrael]

And I'll update the Barbarian, as it will certainly be using the Primal tag.

[Shadow_Elf]

Anyone have any thoughts on the Prescient Commander? I don't have their unique Aura selection up yet, but the rest of the crunch is basically done, and the fluff is mostly there.

[unosarta]

The forum is more up to date than the wiki. I need to fix this, but it's a big task and its' sort of intimidating.

Right now, I think Druid, Trapper, and Ranger are the only ones.

Oh, okay. I don't think I can access the forum from school, so I just never really looked for them there.

Cool. How much of the druid powers are [Primal], because that could affect the balance of the Oracle of the Elemental Grove's abilities, especially if said [Primal] abilities are move or swift action dealios?

[Shadow_Elf]

I just realized that Celerity is not OGL, so I cannot use it as the capstone ability. I will think of a way to just hardwire the wording into the feature and not make it an SLA.

EDIT: Okay, fixed the issue with Celerity, rearranged the features a bit (because I realized that a Warlord 11/Prescient Commander 9 doesn't miss out on any Bonus Feats, so I wanted them to miss out on something big, like Divined Intervention). I also added 4 Auras of Leadership and 4 Auras of Command, and the last of the fluff/suggestions to the DM sections. Anyone have any ideas for how to better it? I am worried right now that it is too powerful.

[Fax Celestis]

Does Anticipation require an action on the Prescient Commander's part?

Prescient Reaction should probably be [Lore], not [Arcane].

I would alter Insightful Leadership to be 'any ally affected by his aura' rather than its fixed 30', and switch it from [Martial] to [Aura]. Warlords already have two aura ranges to keep track of: a third seems like a hassle.

Beyond that, looks good.

[Shadow_Elf]

Does Anticipation require an action on the Prescient Commander's part?

Prescient Reaction should probably be [Lore], not [Arcane].

I would alter Insightful Leadership to be 'any ally affected by his aura' rather than its fixed 30', and switch it from [Martial] to [Aura]. Warlords already have two aura ranges to keep track of: a third seems like a hassle.

Beyond that, looks good.

Made the suggested changes. I'm not entirely certain on the action economy in d20r - what would be the mechanical differences between making his Anticipation ability a free action vs. no action?

[Fax Celestis]

Just a few days left for this round.

[MammonAzrael]

Urmm....The original post says it's open til May 20th :smalltongue:

[Fax Celestis]

...nevermiiiind, I'm an idiot and forgot we didn't start on the 1st. You have hella days left.

[unosarta]

Whew. I was worrying that I would have to finish up all of the fluff for the Oracle of the Elemental Glade in like, 2 days. Which would not be fun.

Speaking of which; any comments on the Oracle?

[Shadow_Elf]

I think I will make Anticipation a free action on the warlord's part, and specify as much. It doesn't make sense for it to work while he's unconscious (no action), but I also don't want it to interfere with the use of his other powerful class features (immediate action). Free action seems an alright compromise.

[MammonAzrael]

I've got the basics of the Battle Seer up. I'll be fleshing out the rest of the fluff and the final abilities tonight/tomorrow morning.

I'm still trying to work out a decent 9th level ability. The other mechanical question I'm playing with is where to removed [Lore]/[Martial] progression. While the class is intended for hybrids, I'm not sure that's enough to justify full progression, since I thought that was something Fax wanted to avoid...?

[Fax Celestis]

BIGGEST NOTE: I've altered how the [Progressing] keyword works, so it should make PrCing less ridiculous for advancement.

[MammonAzrael]

I'll be sure to check it out. Any idea when/if we'll be seeing the next contest?

EDIT: Nevermind, I just saw it.

[Shadow_Elf]

Ooh, another one. I'll start thinking up a concept.

EDIT: Okay, concept is up. Any chance someone could give me a review of the Signs I have up so far? I have the four under Soliel done already, but I am sketchier on the balance of things.